Eleven Madison Park -- Salty Dinner

[Nancy S.]

EMP is certainly a fine restaurant (especially for the service and atmosphere), but we had a disappointing meal there last Friday. We had the 11-course Gourmand menu, with paired wines. It started out well with the amuse bouche, but the meal then progressed from salty to saltier to saltiest. The lobster ravioli was totally spoiled, as was the veal and most shockingly the milk and honey dessert. By the time we got to the cherry sundae, I was so jaded with salt that it could not compete on any level. (Also, the baguettes were rock hard!) Spending $1,000 on dinner and then having it so salty was depressing. We were so much looking forward to this dinner, especially in anticipation to our pending trip to Stockholm, Copenhagen and Paris. I couldn't be more disappointed with EMP. I can't believe that Chef Humm would condone such a disaster.

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Eleven Madison Park
11 Madison Ave., New York, NY 10010

[Bko]

I'm sure that it happens very rarely at restaurants of this caliber, but for a dessert like Milk and Honey, which is comprised of Milk Sorbet with Honey Center, Dehydrated Milk Foam, and Milk Snow, it is hard for a person to conclude that the dessert is salty unless it truly was. I am sure the OP was not "salt sensitive", because this dish had no reason to be overly salty. I have had two meals at EMP, one being very good, while the second was very disappointing compared to the first, and part of my disappointing meal did involve seasoning issues.

[gloriousfood]

I've never noticed the salt level when I've dined at EMP. I actually think the food could use more seasoning.

It is a beautiful place with top-notch service. But I have never been overly impressed by the food itself, esp. for the price point.

[buttertart]

Hear, hear.

[seal]

We are dining there tonight and I'll report in tomorrow. So far I have never had a bad course, much less full meal at EMP, but I am curious.

[eviemichael]

I don't think anyone is trying to make the claim that this happens often at EMP, just that like any restaurant, it is a possibility on an off night.
Hope you have a great meal!

[seal]

I tasted everything with my most critical face on last night at EMP searching for, not just excessive salt, but any mistakes at all. I feel like I've failed you as I report finding none. I will post the entire review later as a meal that exquisite does not belong in what began as a critical post. From food to service to ambiance to all the intangibles, one of the best restaurant experiences ever. Nuff said here - out for a while and then I promise a more detailed post later.

[eviemichael]

I don't want to be argumentative, but why the extreme resistance to acknowledge that it may be possible that one night out of many nights EMP's kitchen could be a bit off?
As I stated before, I had an outstanding experience there. I am not surprised that seal had a great meal there too!
But I have heard otherwise from a few other people, and it seems very rude (or at least presumptuous) to imply that these people have lesser palates just because they claim to have had a different experience. No restaurant is flawless 100% of the time.

[Nancy S.]

This thread has become so upsetting to me. I know that I have an excellent palate. I have worked in great kitchens in New York and have eaten in great restaurants around the world. I have also had good dinners at EMP in the past. Mistakes happen, and I experienced one. I am hoping that the moderators remove this thread. I will ask for this. I don't understand why replies have to be insulting.

[seal]

I hope you don't think I was being facetious in my post. I truly believe you did not enjoy your meail and, as I was dining there last night anyway, I wanted to see if I would feel the same way. I don't work for Danny Meyer and have no compunction about letting everyone know when and if I am disappointed. I don't think my judgement or my palate (or my spelling ;o) is better than anyone else's and that's why I love this board. We may argue here a lot, but although I may disagree, I will never disrespect anyone else's opinions.

[eviemichael]

seal, I did not think you were being facetious at all, I was not directing my post at you. :) I am truly glad you enjoyed your meal at EMP and your post above is very sincere.
Nancy S. I agree that there is no reason for some of the insulting replies. I wish you many wonderful meals in the future :)

[hcbk0702]

Don't let it bother you. EMP has a lot of hardcore defenders on this board. They almost work like a guerilla hit squad, swarming in on negative criticism.

[gloriousfood]

Please don't be upset. Be confident in your perspective about EMP and move on. Asking the moderators to remove this thread is overreacting. This sort of a debate is all too easy to be misconstrued online.

The only thing I would have done differently is I would have mentioned the issue to my server. EMP is the type of restaurant that goes the extra mile for its patrons.

I never thought EMP was that great--and I agree with you 100% on its bread--but be prepared for some dissent if you're going to post anything negative about a restaurant that has its, as someone else posted--hard-core defenders. Everyone's entitled to their opinions. The only person that's right is you. :)

[RCC]

Don't be upset. Tiy wrote a good review and you have every right to provide your opinion and don't need to defend it, especially against the hard-core EMP-diehards here. I've been more than a few times to EMP, more than I care to go especially with some hits-and-misses that we've experienced, and such, we've never considered it at the same high level as the group that's goes ga-ga over it here at CH. I've posted about these experiences here and my thinking is that that's another valuable perspective for the readers wishing to consider dining there.

[irishnyc]

My issue with complaints of this nature is that I find it difficult to believe that just one table's meal was so awful. Surely there must have been others with the same complaint that night, which would tell the captain and the kitchen that there was something amiss.

I don't say this to insult Nancy, or anyone else who seems to have had a similar experience at EMP, but question anyone in general who says of any restaurant, whether it's EMP or Pizza Hut., "Every dish of every course was too salty/spicy/hot/cold/over-peppered/under seasoned, etc." I just don't understand how one table can have that experience, when everyone else seems to be enjoying themselves.

[uwsister]

Yeah, that's why I asked if the dessert was salty as well since that certainly would have been prepared by a different chef at a different station. I'm certainly not doubting Nancy or her palate - simply wondering the logistics of how it could have happened and hope it won't happen on my future visits!

[GroovinGourmet]

"especially when the chef has a night off."

At $500 per head there can be no such thing. That's utterly ridiculous.

[hcbk0702]

Chefs will have to take *some* days off. The point is, if the kitchen is really operating at the highest level, the chef's absence will be imperceptible to those in the dining room. I don't think EMP is there yet.

The other option is to simply close the restaurant whenever the chef's not in. But not every restaurant can be Masa (which *does* cost $400 per person minimum)

[gutsofsteel]

I have eaten at EMP when Chef Humm has been absent, and there was no difference in quality. That's how it should be.

[hcbk0702]

Sorry to hear about your dinner. It's always a shame when a special occasion meal goes off the rails. While I agree you should have spoken up, a succession of improperly seasoned dishes suggests a more severe and systemic set of mistakes in the kitchen. I'm not sure how they would have fixed that effectively.

I agree about the bread. Just heating up each baguette before service won't disguise its inherent quality (though people seem to be in love with heated bread for some odd reason). EMP could use some work on their bread service, but at least the butters are very good.

[ellenost]

I'm having dinner tonight at EMP; I'll report back as to whether there are any salt issues (while I don't expect there will be any, should I find a problem, I'll let the staff know). I somehow doubt that there is a "succession of improperly seasoned dishes [suggesting] a more server and systemic set of mistakes in the kitchen". We have yet to read about any other salt missteps from the EMP kitchen.

[Nancy S.]

Trust me, this was a salty dinner. Daniel Humm was not in the kitchen, and something was clearly and fundamentally wrong in the kitchen. I agree I should have said something, but the issues were complicated. I know salty. Before I became a lawyer, I spent a few years cooking professionally in several New York kitchens. Since becoming a lawyer, I have eaten in excellent restaurants all around the world. I hope this was a one time experience -- maybe the stage was in charge, without supervision?

[calconscious]

I love eating at the finer restaurants in NYC (and the not so fine) and my partner and I had a wonderful meal at EMP. However, I have learned to tell the wait staff "no extra salt" on my food - if it is already in the pre-prepared part of the meal fine. Just don't extra salt it. Jean George - my favorite restaurant in the city totally over-salted an entree once. And no OP - I didn't say anything either. I kept thinking to myself "well it's not like they are going to taste it now - after it has been served to me." But I have learned a lesson. Salt should enhance the food - I don't want to taste the salt. Am going to La Grenouille tonight - and I will request easy on the salt. I'm not ever going to eat an over salted meal again and I do think they are a little salt happy at the finer NYC restaurants.

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Jean Georges
1 Central Park W, New York, NY 10023

La Grenouille
3 East 52nd Street, New York, NY 10022

[Nancy S.]

Good advice -- I will do the same from now on! Many thanks.

[City Kid]

I totally agree. I have recently gotten into the habit of asking "light on the salt, please" when ordering. I use very little salt at home and find just about everything now tastes too salty to me when I go out...I had lunch at EMP today and I love the bread (and everything else)!

[saria]

I don't see why it would make a difference if the chef were in there or not. The chef does not prepare all the dishes. He may taste a lot of them, but odds are that's not even happening. It's not like the cooks just decided to not care and cook carelessly because the chef's not around. As a cook, I'm just bothered by the idea that if your food's good, it's only because the chef is in. Aside from that, Daniel Humm is bound to have very capable sous chefs, who would be the ones in charge in his absence.
I do find it odd that dishes prepared by different people (I've trailed at EMP, it is a very large kitchen, with a very classic brigade system) were all salty across the board.

[hcbk0702]

I didn't mean in general, just the particular night the OP went. Sending multiple overseasoned dishes to a single table is indeed a systemic issue.

FWIW, I've had some seasoning mishaps at EMP as well. Although it isn't a common occurrence, the kitchen doesn't seem to be as consistent as it should be.

[Nancy S.]

Agreed. As someone who has worked in a kitchen, it's easy to see how this can happen, especially when the chef has a night off.

[ellenost]

Just wanted to report back about another wonderful dinner at EMP. No surprise to me that there was no problem with over salting. In fact, I kept asking my sister whether she thought there was too much salt in any of the dishes, and she agreed that all of our many courses were properly seasoned. We had a tasting of different tomato dishes, the artic char (Chef Humm''s tribute to lox and bagels), the always wonderful duck and vanilla souffle To the OP, I'm sorry you didn't enjoy your dinner, but I'm glad it was a one-time misstep for the kitchen.

[Nancy S.]

I am happy for you as well. There is not a single business in the world were perfection is attained 100 percent of the time. I was unlucky, and I made the mistake of not mentioning it in a timely manner.

[eviemichael]

I had an amazing amazing meal at EMP and urged all of my NY friends who hadn't been yet to go.
Two of them went and their dinner was also incredibly salty (and yes- it was a succession of salty dishes). They mentioned it to the server with the first or second course (I cant remember) and they were very graciously offered a new course. But they felt uncomfortable to keep mentioning it for the following dishes. Crap happens, and its just an unfortunate situation.

[Nancy S.]

Thank you for posting this.

[eviemichael]

My pleasure :)

[daffyduck]

sorry about your experience. and yes! those baoguettes are rock hard. i remember my date laughed at me when i couldnt break my baoguette. lol i remember even trying to knife it open.

[Nancy S.]

It's so hard to understand, with all the available great bread in the city, even if a restaurant does not bake their bread in-house. Surprisingly, I thought the bread at The Modern was delicious and texturally perfect and wonder why it's not the case at EMP.

[Pookipichu]

The bread at Tocqueville was fantastic. Buttery, soft brioche. As was the meal AND the desserts.

[uwsister]

Did you speak to your captain about it? I'm sure he/she would have done anything to rectify the problem. I received an overcooked beef dish at EMP recently, and as soon as I mentioned it to my captain, it was corrected with a sincere apology. Same with any other problem or complaint I had there, though I've had very few. Either way it is always disappointing to have less than perfect dinner when you have been looking forward to it so much. I hope you let them know about the misses so they would have had chance to make it up to you.

Was the milk and honey dessert salty? That's how I understand the sentence - am I mistaken?

[Nancy S.]

Yes, the milk and honey dessert was horribly salty. In retrospect, it seems like someone in the kitchen confused the sugar for salt.

[uwsister]

That's really strange. I'm not a big fan of EMP's desserts (other than their tart carts) as much as I am of the restaurant, but I've never had a dessert there that was downright salty.

Have you heard from the management?

[ellenost]

I've dined at EMP numerous times, and while I've never experienced any problems with their food, I am sure if you had expressed your displeasure with the salt level of the food, it would have been corrected. It's a shame you didn't speak up.

[Nancy S.]

Yes, I should have. But, this was my husband's grand treat, and I did not want to upset him. Although he noticed the salt too, and didn't say anything either, not wanting to upset me! I did email the restaurant right after and express my disappointment, but I have not heard back. I have learned a lesson for next time, though.