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Pizza dough emergency

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itryalot Jul 15, 2010 04:06 AM

Hi all - Need some expertise. I followed the dough recipe here:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives...

I questioned the use of ice cold water but followed it anyway. Now, checked my dough and it didn't double overnight and only have enough flour for dusting the work surface when rolling out my dough.

I took the dough out of the fridge. Any suggestions.

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  1. s
    sfmiller RE: itryalot Jul 15, 2010 04:18 AM

    Did it rise at all? If so, give it more time at room temp than the recipe calls for. If not, I'd suspect bad yeast.

    2 Replies
    1. re: sfmiller
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      itryalot RE: sfmiller Jul 15, 2010 04:26 AM

      I just purchased the yeast fresh yesterday before I used it. Can that be possible?

      1. re: itryalot
        bushwickgirl RE: itryalot Jul 15, 2010 05:02 AM

        I just posted this at the duplicate thread and asked the mods to delete it.

        Let it rest at room temp for a few hours; it should double, especially with the hot weather we've been having throughout the States. Possibly the use of ice water and the chill of your refrigerator retarded the dough proofing greatly, even when using instant yeast, which I assume you did. That's really ok, as you've probably developed some nice flavor overnight in the dough, which was the point of the recipe. High hydration + long slow proofing - No kneading = flavor.

        As long as your yeast was viable, give the dough a few hours to warm up, and it should be just fine. Also, this dough will be soft and doesn't need to be rolled out; gentle stretching/spreading with fingertips should be all it takes. So don't worrry about your limited flour supply; you won't need it.

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      itryalot RE: itryalot Jul 15, 2010 05:05 AM

      It's beginning to look promising. I see some growth already.

      1 Reply
      1. re: itryalot
        bushwickgirl RE: itryalot Jul 15, 2010 05:10 AM

        There ya go, it's coming up to temp. Should be very good; the photos at seriouseats are seriously beautiful. Don't sweat the dough, just let it do it's thing.

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        itryalot RE: itryalot Jul 15, 2010 05:18 AM

        I was multitasking and think I used traditional yeast instead of instant. This called for the flour to be mixed with the yeast dry. Running out to the grocery store to buy more flour, just in case.
        What do you think will happen if that is the case? It seems that the dough may have the granules in it and dough is VERY hard. Should I start over? Off to get the flour and will check in when I get home.

        4 Replies
        1. re: itryalot
          bushwickgirl RE: itryalot Jul 15, 2010 05:53 AM

          Mm, that's a dough of a different color now. This dough should be very soft. Active yeast needs to be dissolved prior to adding the flour; from your description it sounds like the yeast was not fully dissolved; bummer. The density of the dough you wrote of just may be from the cold, but it doesn't sound right. I'd start over. It's just flour, not much of a financial loss.

          You can still use active yeast, you'll need to proof it in water first, and I'm not sure you'll be able to use the cold water method for proofing. No matter, you can still let dough rest in the frig overnight. Peter Reinhart uses instant yeast predominately in his baking books, and I'd think about trying that yeast in the future, but you can still use active with the same results, just a llittle different technique.

          1. re: bushwickgirl
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            itryalot RE: bushwickgirl Jul 15, 2010 06:18 AM

            Bought flour, instant yeast am going to start over and not refrigerate since my house is AC'd in this heat. Will cook it at 5pm tonight so should still develop some flavor.

            1. re: bushwickgirl
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              LisaPA RE: bushwickgirl Jul 15, 2010 06:15 PM

              This is not true - I haven't proofed active yeast in years. It may have been necessary 100 years ago, but not with modern products. I treat it as a dry ingredient, just like instant yeast, and never have any trouble.

              Also, I think the cold water is to counteract the heat of the mixer (in the original). Reinhart is all about dough having an ideal temperature.

              1. re: LisaPA
                bushwickgirl RE: LisaPA Jul 16, 2010 03:10 AM

                Well, first of all, active dry yeast was developed during WWII, so it hasn't been around for 100 years. And I certainly wasn't using yeast 100 years ago, when yeast slurries, cream yeast and then compressed yeast were the progressively available commercial and consumer choices.

                Under most baking conditions, active dry yeast needs to be proofed or rehydated. It contains coarse oblong granules with live yeast cells encapsulated in a thick jacket of dry, dead cells with some growth medium, as opposed to instant yeast, which has smaller granules with substantially higher percentages of live cells per comparable unit volumes, is more porous, and needs a higher hydrated dough to work to it's fullest capability. The points of hydration with ADY is to dissolve the larger yeast granules and jumpstart the fermentation process. Dissolving the yeast first generally results in better yeast activity. I did some research on this subject at www.thefreshloaf.com; the choice to hydrate first or not has it's camps; some bakers have found that it's not necessary and consider the process to be nothing more than a wive's tale, and not critical, but I firmly believe that hydrating first has it's distinct advantages.

                The best reason I know for hydrating ADY is to check it's viability, aside from the obvious reasons stated above, although active dry yeast produced today is very reliable, performance wise, and has been genetically modified to provide almost as much yeast activity as instant. I worry less these days about the freshness of my yeast and more about dissolving it completely and pre-activation.

                If you are indeed using ADY without proofing first and getting good results, more power to you. It's may be doable under certain dough conditions, but is basically not a recommended method of working with that type of yeast. If you are using high hydration doughs, I can see why active yeast wouldn't necessarily need to be proofed. To that end, why not switch to instant yeast entirely, if you're opposed to hydrating, or just want to skip that step?

                There have been occasions where I did not proof the ADY first, whether by choice or mistake, and the results were less than spectacular. In my bread baking future, when I use active dry, I will continue to proof first.

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            itryalot RE: itryalot Jul 15, 2010 06:34 AM

            I kept the other dough. It is getting spongey and bubbly. Should I keep and bake as pizza bianca or should I toss?

            6 Replies
            1. re: itryalot
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              ESNY RE: itryalot Jul 15, 2010 08:18 AM

              I use Peter Reinharts dough all the time and get great results. you'll even see some of my pies in the My Pie Monday (ESNY1077) on Slice.

              I find the "doubling overnight" isn't really what happens, especially when you are talking about a slow rise in the refrigerator. Usually it just slightly increases in size or more relaxes into the bowl instead of a nice ball shape. When you take it out of the fridge to come to room temperature is when you'll notice an increase in size.

              II would keep the dough and use it. you can even fridge your newest dough for a few days before using it.. the flavor will get better with age.

              1. re: ESNY
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                itryalot RE: ESNY Jul 15, 2010 08:34 AM

                I do follow your posts regularly. Did you read that I used traditional yeast by accident? (picked up the wrong jar)
                The dough looks like it has granules in it but is rising. Is it saveable?

                1. re: itryalot
                  chowser RE: itryalot Jul 15, 2010 09:26 AM

                  Yes, leave it at room temperature. I rise the dough at room temperature to give it a start (about half an hour or so) before putting in the refrigerator or you end up with what you did, especially since you started with cold water. It still works, just takes that much longer. Using traditional yeast will take that much longer. Spongey and bubbly are a good sign. I'd go ahead and use it, even if it wetter than it's supposed to be, on a hot stone. Pizza bianca sounds good.

                  1. re: chowser
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                    itryalot RE: chowser Jul 15, 2010 10:58 AM

                    I put the new (good) dough in the refrigerator and will let the flavors develop until tomorrow and put the old (traditional yeast) dough on the counter still and it is growing and still spongey but taking much longer. I will leave it until tomorrow too. Whatever happens, it's dough. I'll use my zucchini flowers on the new pizza dough since I don't want to sacrifice that.

                    1. re: itryalot
                      chowser RE: itryalot Jul 15, 2010 11:58 AM

                      I've found fresh baked bread is good, whether it's exactly as it should be or not. But, good call on reserving special ingredients for the "sure" thing. I think the long rise will help the old one, too, and it sounds like it's on its way.

                  2. re: itryalot
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                    ESNY RE: itryalot Jul 15, 2010 09:26 AM

                    I'm not really that solid a baker and the extent of my dough making is pretty much just pizza dough.

                    I use SAF instant yeast. Not sure what traditional yeast is. Is it like the block of cake yeast? Instant yeast you just mix with the flour and don't need to mix in water or proof. If the dough is rising, the yeast is working. Not sure how it might affect texture though... maybe the dough will eventually gobble up the remaining yeast??

                    If you are scared to use it for pizza, You might as well try at least a pizza bianca or even a grilled pizza with the dough to see how it turned out since you went through the effort and then make the pizza with the new dough. consider it an experiment.

                    One of my more recent failures happened when I didn't realize until it was too late that I had no cheese in the house. Should've checked first, but I was certain I still had some fresh mozzarella left. So since I couldn't make pizza but already had the dough ready and the stone all hot, I made a faux pizza bianca and then used the it as the bread for an amazing italian sausage sandwich.

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                Jemon RE: itryalot Jul 15, 2010 04:09 PM

                I don't think anyone has mentioned it (I could be wrong) but I wouldn't use the ice cold water in it. I don't see the point of doing that if you are then going to do a fast rise at room temperature with a lot of yeast. If I were you, I would always proof the yeast anyway. And in the future, if you have a warm dough that hasn't risen after an hour or so, just mix some extra yeast with about a tsp of flour and 1/2 tsp of sugar together, let it proof for 5 minutes or so just so you can see it's activity, and knead it into your original dough. And you said the dough was dry? Did you add a lot of flour while kneading because it seemed too sticky? Avoid that in the future, because the dough is usually sticky because all of the water has not been absorbed by the flour. Just keep kneading no matter how big a mess it looks like, and usually it should come together fine after a while.

                Anyway, I don't know how welcome this lesson will be, but think about it this way with any type of bread material:

                Your basic four ingredients are (almost always) going to be flour, water, salt, and yeast. On a free day, get a bag of flour and do a bunch of experiments and make observations. Make a "control dough," then play with the ratio of water to flour (hydration), yeast quantity to rising time, salt quantity to end flavor, addition of fats: oil, butter, milk, cream, etc and how the dough reacts. Addition of sugars (white, brown, honey, maple syrup, etc) and how they change the final product. You will learn a TON about bread and hopefully after that, make different breads without a recipe since you can guess at the outcome by the appearance and texture of the dough.

                7 Replies
                1. re: Jemon
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                  itryalot RE: Jemon Jul 15, 2010 04:58 PM

                  Thanks. My family (abroad and here) have never used sugar in bread or in pizza dough though. I am learning as I go and making notes on my recipes.

                  1. re: itryalot
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                    LisaPA RE: itryalot Jul 15, 2010 06:17 PM

                    Depends on the bread you are making - European-style breads typically do not have sugar added. A white American sandwich loaf does.

                    1. re: LisaPA
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                      Jemon RE: LisaPA Jul 15, 2010 06:41 PM

                      Some Euro breads do, such as brioche, off the top of my head. I often see pizza dough recipes with honey or sugar as well. I'm not sure if these are traditional or not.

                      1. re: Jemon
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                        ESNY RE: Jemon Jul 16, 2010 07:56 AM

                        Sugar is not traditional in pizza dough but plenty of recipes have it. I'm indifferent to using it, as long as its a fairly scant amount. I care about results not authenticity. My favorite neopalitan dough recipe doesn't use sugar but a square/focaccia style one does.

                        1. re: ESNY
                          chowser RE: ESNY Jul 16, 2010 10:48 AM

                          Sugar feeds the yeast so it works more quickly. If you want a long slow rise, it's not needed.

                          1. re: chowser
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                            Jemon RE: chowser Jul 16, 2010 07:56 PM

                            I don't really care about the yeast feeding properties of the sugar in the recipes, I use it for sweetness. I will let the dough rise as long as it needs to.

                    2. re: itryalot
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                      itryalot RE: itryalot Jul 16, 2010 04:37 AM

                      Yes, I have seen many recipes with sugar and/or honey as well. Obviously, sweet breads (the bread, not the meat) do have sugar added -- easter sweet bread, brioche as you have stated, pannettone, etc.

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                    itryalot RE: itryalot Jul 16, 2010 03:11 PM

                    5 rectangular pizzas enjoyed by many using both good and "bad" dough. Will post photos as soon as I can. Thanks everyone!

                    1 Reply
                    1. re: itryalot
                      chowser RE: itryalot Jul 17, 2010 05:46 AM

                      I figured it would all turn out great. Nice to hear!

                    2. iluvcookies RE: itryalot Jul 16, 2010 04:19 PM

                      I have honestly never seen a recipe for pizza dough (or any yeast dough) call for ice cold water. Pie crust, sure, but not anything with yeast.

                      Did you use bread flour as the recipe stated or just all purpose? That would also make a difference in the dough structure as bread flour contains more protein and forms the structural gluten better than all purpose flour.
                      Also, did you knead by hand or with a standing mixer? As a novice baker I often added WAY too much flour when kneading by hand, then one day my DH got me a Kitchen Aid. Best thing that ever happened to my pizza dough!

                      I use the pizza dough recipe from Baking Illustrated (from the publishers of Cooks Illustrated) and I always proof my yeast--instant or not. Even instant yeast can be old or dead so I don't think it hurts to proof it... better than wasting several hours to find your dough doesn't rise.

                      1 Reply
                      1. re: iluvcookies
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                        Jemon RE: iluvcookies Jul 16, 2010 09:23 PM

                        Adding too much flour during kneading is pretty much EVERY novice baker's downfall! I think a lot of recipes are poorly written; stating to use "as much flour as needed" on the kneading surface instead of giving a maximum quantity. I recall a younger Jemon dumping at least an extra cup of flour onto the counter to knead in since I never knew how the actual dough was really supposed to be like. It really does take someone more experienced to take a novice baker under their wing and show them, because trial and error is a pain and a lot of people just give up on bread because it can be frustrating.

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                        itryalot RE: itryalot Jul 23, 2010 09:17 AM

                        Attached are some photos. First one is the newer "good" dough; second one is the original which didn't do so well, but was edible nevertheless.

                         
                         
                        2 Replies
                        1. re: itryalot
                          chowser RE: itryalot Jul 23, 2010 09:39 AM

                          Your pizzas look great. I'm not surprised people loved both. On the second, I probably would have added more flour into it--it looks a little too hydrated, but I still find it turns out to be good bread baked.

                          1. re: chowser
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                            itryalot RE: chowser Jul 23, 2010 10:18 AM

                            You're very correct about the second. It was very wet!

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                          itryalot RE: itryalot Jul 23, 2010 09:18 AM

                          Pizza photos.

                           
                           
                           
                           
                          3 Replies
                          1. re: itryalot
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                            ESNY RE: itryalot Jul 23, 2010 10:56 AM

                            Looks like you did a fine job. I know you said people enjoyed all pizzas but what were your specific thoughts on the two different doughs?

                            1. re: ESNY
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                              itryalot RE: ESNY Jul 23, 2010 11:03 AM

                              On a blind taste test most could tell the "bad" dough. Not as tender, much more chewy. although we like some chew, ti was a little heavier. Still, all pizzas were gone. I think, though, I am going to try that original recipe and use the proper yeast and see what happens. I will wait for cooler weather - or maybe, I could cook the pizza outdoors on the cement! Hmmmmm

                              1. re: itryalot
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                                ESNY RE: itryalot Jul 23, 2010 11:32 AM

                                Its tough with the hot weather but I still can't help myself. Got a dough slow rising in the fridge and gonna make another square sicilian style pizza tonight.

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                            itryalot RE: itryalot Jul 23, 2010 09:28 AM

                            One more.

                             
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