Dim Sum history, about carts vs check sheets, and their future

[K K]

I've been checking the net for information regarding the history of dim sum, not necessarily when or where it started, but more so about how a restaurant's waitstaff would deliver the food from the kitchen to the table, as well as the mechanism in doing so. Even Chinese websites don't really say much when I search for "dim sum + history".

In numerous dim sum threads on this board, I see comments like:

-I like my dim sum old school so I can see what's on the push carts

-people preferring a push cart experience over checksheet, despite the fact that depending on what time you arrive at the restaurant, the carts and ladies may be upselling stuff served by the kitchen over an hour ago, being heated via steam, and that checksheet is usually a bit more efficient and has a higher chance of getting something made to order

-the idea that checksheet is new school, vs pushcarts being old school

Well guess what, from the little I've found will refute some of these claims of schools.

If you use Luk Yu in Hong Kong as an example, they've been around 80+ years or more.
Other than Lin Heung, this is as old school as it gets.

If you look at blog photos of these places, I believe they still do it original old school way, where the dim sum ladies wear a belt over both shoulders, which there is a tray hooked onto it, where the dim sum is carried. It is believed that was the norm and original way of delivering.

I'm curious to know when carts were introduced, what they were made of at first, and when the cart became not just a pushcart, but a way to keep the food hot/warm (gas powered steamer gadget). A youtube clip made by a high school student in Hong Kong suggests the latter type of cart was introduced circa early 70s. Anyone remember dim sum in metropolitan USA during the 70s or 60s for that matter and what was it like then?

And as far as checksheets go, it seems to be the norm at most places now, even in Hong Kong, as real estate prices soar and restaurants wanting to do more turnover and volume (and thus tables and chairs becoming more dense in their space). But Luk Yu has been doing checksheet also for a long long time, thus disproving that this is a "new school" way. An epochtimes online Chinese article (lost the link, sorry) suggests that carts at least in Hong Kong are also going the way of the dodo bird, with maybe a handful of places left doing "old school". Everyone wants or seems to prefer (in addition to restaurant business dictating) made to order, ideally "quick" (Tim's Kitchen in HK being the exception, known for their crazy wait from online reports) and in a no nonsense yet comfortable environment. Lobster dumplings and baked pineapple flakey pastry buns with abalone bits inside, or swallow's nest dumplings are but high end gimmicks, yet potentially delicious. Or doing something with foie gras as seen in some west coast dim sum places.

Where do you see dim sum going in the future?

[c oliver]

I moved to SF in '76 and there were carts then, as an fyi.

I've never been any place where there was a checklist. Mostly in SF and NYC where I've been, it's carts and we order any special non-cart items. I don't pretend to be expert on dim sum; just love it better than almost anything :)

[jumpingmonk]

some of the places in NYC have checklists. Off the type of my head, Chatham Square (the one that is still there) uses them as well as at least one place in Flushing (Ocean Jewel I think; the one on 39th ave below prince with the enormous parking lot, across from the mini mall)

[scoopG]

Also Dim Sum Go Go in Manhattan is ordered from a checklist and Chinatown Brassiere is ordered off the menu.

[buttertart]

Red Egg too, no?

[jumpingmonk]

Yes, Red egg too

[chilibeanpaste]

Strange as I always thought these carts were simply street vendor cook carts moved indoors in the northland where walls and doors are the norm. I never dreamt they might be a relatively "modern" idea.

They certainly had dim sum carts in Toronto in the early to mid-seventies. I vividly remember the old Pink Pearl and several others nearby with carts.

[buttertart]

Sai Woo, too.

[chilibeanpaste]

Good grief - Sai Woo, is it still around?

[buttertart]

Dunno, was adducing it as evidence of carts in T.O. in the days of yore (the '70s).

[Chemicalkinetics]

No, not really. The cart thing in Dim Sum restaurant has long tradition, but not that long. The cart just make it easier for people to move the Dim Sum around. The whole cart thing and shoulder box only makes sense if there a lot of varity of DIm Sum and if there are numerous customers. If the restaurant is only offering 3-5 Dim Sum and/or with a few customers, then there is no point of having cats.

As such, the earlier version of Dim Sum was ordered to go. Carts are introduced for spending the sale for busy restaurants. That said and all, I prefer the cart version as I have mentioned before. The very high-ends Dim Sum restaurants usually do not have carts (as mentioned by KK and me about "Royal Hong Kong Jockey Club")

[chilibeanpaste]

Thanks for that.

[K K]

Found some interesting old photos about dim sum and dim sum restaurants on this person's website

http://www.aubreytang.com/2010/07/1.html

The photos near the top to middle of the page range from Qing Dynasty era all the way to the 30s/40s/50s/60s/70s.

[Chemicalkinetics]

I was going to comment the lack of "birds and bird cages", but then I saw them as I scroll down. I still remember those "花牌". Yeah, I don't see them anymore. They are awesome (no idea)

[Parigi]

Excellent. Thank you.

[buttertart]

Came across this recently - half of a blowout ayce checklist made-to-order dian xin feast at the Sheraton in Suzhou in 2008 - 88 kuai ($12.50 appx) pp for any or all of the list, encompassing about 70 dian xin and noodle dishes - we put ourselves around 16 of them, including the best scallion pancake in the history of mankind, potato-chip thin (already scarfed when the pic was taken).

[K K]

You what is really interesting, is that in Hong Kong, scallion pancakes are multi layered crispy if you go to any Shanghainese or Pekingnese type non Canto restaurant, like this

http://media1.px.yelpcdn.com/photo/uzfC1vxxbocdwo5GHcDhpQ/l

But there are a handful (maybe) or so dim sum places that do an old school Hong Kong or Cantonese variant called 煎鹹薄餐 (jien xien baow tsaan / dzeen hahm bohk tsaan) which is only one layer, much similar to those in the US. I guess this is the rarer thin crust pizza version over there and personally I don't even remember having this or seen this while growing up. There isn't that much info on this variant, but some blog receipes online

http://www.got1mag.com/blogs/kimcherng.php/2006/10/21/a_aore_a

http://blog.goo.ne.jp/tokyosilai/e/7a...

[Chemicalkinetics]

The one I make is like this:

http://media.photobucket.com/image/sc...

It is multi-layers, but not the thick ones.

[buttertart]

This looked rather like the one in the got1mag blog but was much airier looking, sort of like one half of a perfectly-inflated Indian poori (with scallion flecks).
The one in the blog.goo.ne looks more like a Taiwanese you bing, don't you think? The kind that's shallow-fried and a bit (pleasantly) soft and greasy? They used to serve those with gan pian siji dou green beans in Sichuan restaurants in TPE and you ate the beans wrapped up in them. M-m-good.

[K K]

There's supposedly one pic of the Canto single layer scallion pancake on openrice (a very cluttery review site), but I can't seem to dig it out.

Yeah well the 2nd blog has a JP (japan) address, probably Japanese Chinese or Chinese/Taiwanese expat living in Japan? Again those are variants and spinoffs. All I know is that the Cantonese single layer scallion pancake...it's one of those long lost receipes, seems like not many restaurants in HK serve that now for dim sum.

Never had four seasons beans done that way, sounds great! I grew up eating four seasons beans in HK, although it was done with ....preserved olive greens and a teeny bit of pork? Either way it was soooo good.

But agreed, that JP blogger's receipe doesn't look that much different from Taiwanese bing. Man I am hankering from some starch coma goodness from Yongho right now :-o.

[buttertart]

Join the club, a permanent state of longing! PS if you want to see the menu, I have it in a .pdf which would not post here, email me at address in profile.

[chowser]

They're not hard to make; that is, if you like to cook. If you can get good lard, it makes all the difference but even without, they're great hot off the stove. I'm talking about the Taiwanese ones. I haven't made the others.

[ipsedixit]

Are you sure it's lard chowser?

I don't believe Taiwanese cooking generally uses lard for frying, or cooking generally.

[jumpingmonk]

Then of course there's the other variation you sometimes bump into here in the US, partiularly in some of the dupling resturants in Manhattans Chinatown, which I tend to think of as scallion bread rather than pancakes. This version is single layer, but is a very thick, risen single layer and the resultant panckae is much breadier than the "standard" US version, its more like a scallion laced, slightly fried (sometimes) piece of naan or flatbread. I personally an not particualry fond of this kind over the other at least, not for eating as is (Thogh if often though that if I ever found a dual cuisine resturaunt that did Chinese and Greek, it would make one HELL of a base for gyros and souvlaki.

[K K]

Sounds like a variant of the Islamic Chinese sesame bread or Zi Ma Da Bing, which sometimes has scallions in it. Goes great with lamb dishes. There's a local bakery in my area that does different kinds of focaccia, and sometimes they have a version with scallions baked on top (like a pseudo Chinese version), and another with garlic and something else. Put a piece of Cantonese fatty roastie pork on top and it's a heavenly open faced sandwich.

There's another Taiwanese variant that's a lot more starchy, but the key is the use of Eastern Taiwanese leeks/scallions from Yilan county (probably a distant cousin of Tokyo Negi you see at the likes of Nijiya or Japanese supermarkets). It's a bit too starchy for my liking (and chewy thick dough), and fills you up quickly, so I'm not too crazy about it as a street food snack item. But the scallions itself are supremely good for general applications.

The bready version would certainly not be a good item to have in a Cantonese dim sum joint.

[jumpingmonk]

And then there was the one I bumped into once which mixed scallions and CINNAMON. Maybe this is popular to someone, but I found the combination unaccountably odd.

[K K]

Hmmmm Cinnabing! But not coming to a mall near you.

[buttertart]

The thicker layered fried ones are great with braised beef shank in them. Quite a few places in the city serve that combo. New subject: what I'd really love to have RIGHT NOW is the flaky sesame-topped su bing with braised beef in it that they serve at the Celestial (Tian Chu) on Nanjing Lu nr Zhongshan Bei Lu in TPE...

[chowser]

Not sure what the authentic version uses but my mom's made with lard were great. She also used lard for her pastry for red bean cakes and they were super flaky. But, in the past couple of decades, trying to go healthier, she went to vegetable oil and nothing has been the same since. Still good, just not as. I've only used oil and they pale in comparison.

[K K]

Was having lunch earlier at a place where they had these restaurant copies of imported Hong Kong celeb gossip juice rags and came across an interesting article. Not referring to the ones about the chesty queens with college degrees or how the latest pop tartlet was caught cheating on her boyfriend while shopping for Nike's, but rather the section of the mag rags about politics, businesses.

The article was about interviewing the owner of One Dim Sum, a 37 seater restaurant, about 600 square feet of dining space, in the Kowloon side. Obviously with this small space, it's all checksheet ordering and no carts whatsoever.

http://www.openrice.com/restaurant/sr...

This is an example of one of the new crop of very small dim sum restaurants, garnering a lot of attention following the awarded one Michelin star restaurant like Tim's Kitchen (Tim Ho Wan) doing made to order dim sum of the highest quality at upwards of half the price of the bigwigs.

The article is insightful....One is making on average US$20,000 a month. The master dim sum chef basically gets to work at 5 am and starts getting the basic prep and marination work done. Maybe an hour later, the other 4 dim sum chefs come in and start wrapping ha gow's and the ilk. They prepare the combo rice in tin plates in advance, time it so they start and are almost done by 9:50 am, which require 15 mins to steam (vs 3 mins for most other dim sum items)....a very popular item with the blue collar crowd as it is like an old school instant breakfast (e.g. spare ribs chicken feet over rice, or chicken and mushroom over rice, or preserved sausage over rice).

The key to maximizing the restaurant's profit is efficiency. Although the average wait time in line could be 30 mins, the way the place operates is that the time between the customer sits down and orders to when the bill is paid stretch no more than 20 to 25 mins. Even with 6 waitstaff and 2 buspeople, at least four people patrol the floor to promptly 1) refill tea, 2) take away empty/dirty plates (although they will never wipe the table, that's a very rude direct way to tell customers to hurry up and leave). If the restaurant is lucky, one table will have about 3 seatings in an hour.

The owner spills a few insider secrets, but more so is common sense. The quality is more easily controlled....he personally hits up the local markets to buy fresh ingredients, and knows exactly how much to buy, and there is never excess as there isn't much storage space at the restaurant. He also pays his dim sum chefs higher than the competition (the bigwigs), which you may be shocked to learn that the average salary could be as low as US$1800 /month. He's not worried about paying them higher, but more so that the staff couldn't tolerate the long hours and tough conditions. As a result of the restaurant's resouce limitations (storage, time, costs etc) they do not offer desserts. Everything is savory.

A box of frozen Vietnamese shrimp, used for ha gow/shrimp dumplings, cost about US$120. Maxim's sells an order of ha gow for HK$30, and One sells the same quality for HK$16. And yet people are willing to wait in line for this stuff.

There's more to the article but that's all I can remember.

I'm wondering though, if this is the start of a trend that may eventually reach overseas (like in the US) where entrepreneurs open up their own exclusively dim sum all day (or most day) restaurants, steamed to order, restaurant class, but at a much lower cost. I'd love to see this sometime.

[raytamsgv]

That link has more Chinese than I understand, but they did a very good job with the dishes that were pictured. Thanks for the info.

[Chemicalkinetics]

I don't get it. This is basically smaller scale dim sum restaurants which only serve dim sum from morning to night, right? Don't we have that already?

[K K]

Unfortunately our California Chinese dim sum bakery/deli's also don't offer salted pork bone congee and slowfire stewed/cooked soup of the day. And they don't close till midnight like One's.

[ipsedixit]

K K

The link you provide does not have an interview? Only reviews of the restaurant.

[K K]

Sorry folks, the link I provided is basically the chowhound and yelp of Hong Kong for food. I linked the place for those interested in seeing what the restaurant looks like/where it is etc.

As far as the interview goes, I merely translated from memory the article I read from a back issue at the restaurant during lunch today that I felt deserved sharing. It is a fascinating read to say the least, and from all possible sources, a medium that specializes in gossip mag rag stuff!.

The bottom line is this appears to be the new trend in Hong Kong, arguably started by Tim's Kitchen (the chef supposedly came from uber pimp Lung King Heen at the Four Seasons), where dim sum turns cheaper, downscale, steamed to order, efficient but very small scale yet high end restaurant quality, all basically at a spectacular unbeatable value.

CK, we currently don't have something like this in the SF Bay Area of this kind of quality. We may have dim sum bakeries in SGV/MP or the various places in San Francisco Chinatown and Richmond/Sunset, but keep in mind those are pre-made early in the day and pretty much left to sit in the steamers until someone buys them to go. These small shops in HK are again, made to order, which make it that more appealing.

Really, all it takes is for some top talent dim sum chef in metropolitan US cities (and budding entrepreneurs along with some serious management experience) to brave the waters and go this route. Maybe the logistics are a lot more difficult overseas, particularly with generally higher costs of materials and perhaps higher dim sum chef salaries for lesser skilled counterparts, but with enough persistence and courage, this could be a possibility. Or like tapioca tea and eggettes, we have to wait another 5+ years before this trend catches on here.

[ipsedixit]

Part of the problem I think with replicating the One model here in the States is that the demand for dim sum is simply not that great.

Even in places like SF and LA (or even NYC), most non-Chinese folks have no idea what dim sum is and those that do consider it a special treat that they will have once or twice a month -- not something eaten everyday.

Until you see restaurants that offer dim sum every day filled to the brim on the weekdays (as they are on the weekends), something along the lines of the business model of One isn't going to survive, much less thrive.

[chowser]

I was thinking along these lines, too. In the DC area, it was far cheaper to hire line cooks than dim sum chefs and few people venture outside hargow, shu mai, anyway. Years (actually, decades at this point), my FIL had a nice seafood restaurant, very popular dimsum. He wanted top of the line, best quality food but found overhead too great, not enough people appreciated it. Over time, the food deteriorated to decent food by line cooks. Customers didn't notice. Recently, my husband's uncle did the same but quickly learned that even the line chefs were too expensive for overhead. As I mentioned above, he gets his frozen from NYC now. Few Non-chinese people appreciate great quality dim sum and there is only enough of a crowd for a Sunday brunch. I thought it might be different in LA, SF, or NYC but it's not the case for the DC area. This isn't a matter of build it and they will come.

[scoopG]

Oh it would work if done right I think.

[Chemicalkinetics]

"we currently don't have something like this in the SF Bay Area of this kind of quality."

Ha, got it. I didn't think about the quality part. Ha ha ha.

[scoopG]

Thanks much - interesting piece!

[ipsedixit]

"The bottom line is this appears to be the new trend in Hong Kong, arguably started by Tim's Kitchen (the chef supposedly came from uber pimp Lung King Heen at the Four Seasons), where dim sum turns cheaper, downscale, steamed to order, efficient but very small scale yet high end restaurant quality, all basically at a spectacular unbeatable value."

_______________________________________________

K K

I think the trend that started in Hong Kong is probably taking its course via the food truck route. Lots of dim sum trucks roaming the streets these days, and generally fit the description you describe.

[chowser]

You have dim sum trucks in LA? That's a great idea.

[ipsedixit]

Yup.

Here's one that I know of: http://thedimsumtruck.com/Index/Home....

And there's probably more out there I'm not aware.

[K K]

I dunno about the food truck approach, I've seen the DST website before, and while the guy has a good plan on his hands that will work with the younger American crowds and bandtruck chasers, it's very limited to an even smaller subset of the lineup (but at least they work), plus a few Chinese American looking favorites. It is simple enough that it does work, but I can't see hardcore expat granny types (the ones that will hoard a table with a pot of tea and a Chinese newspaper), typical Chinese families, or the VIP wine imbibing golfers flocking to munch standing off a truck with fam/friends/secretaries/affairs anytime soon.

Also is DST and friends doing their stuff steamed to order, or is it pre-made, frozen, then reheated on the truck? I can't imagine people in LA or anywhere else in the US waiting 30 mins in line for some dim sum off a truck where they can't sit down and enjoy a pot of tea.

I suppose the food truck thing is synonymous with the Asian night market type fare (or that is the best we will ever get, minus the Richmond/Vancouver summer night market that seems to be getting a lot of good reviews as the exception in North America), but at least in Hong Kong and Taiwan, you won't find dim sum at a night market. Xiaolongbao and shenjianbao, yes, but I have yet to see the Canto dim sum basics (ha gow, siu mai, bbq pork bun etc) showing up in steamers.

So maybe I'll hold my breath a little, and perhaps an expat entrepreneur focusing on expat community based target market will steal the HK concept and run with it in the US somewhere. Perhaps a disgruntled high end Canto seafood restaurant dim sum master chef and his sous chefs? For NorCal we do have two restaurants that specialize in noodles, congee, fried rice/noodles and stir fry plates, some roasties, that also offer cheung fun (up into the night) and they are steamed to order. Not bad of an effort, but at least it's there. A small step, but perhaps a glimpse into the future...

[scoopG]

I agree. While I wish them well, it seems like a limited menu, which of course is not what dim sum is all about. Box lunch with no vegies? Also I would have expected some interesting, perhaps even wild or exotic interpretations - like what is being done with Korean Tacos I guess.

[chowser]

It's not the same experience but if you're working and want to grab a quick bite to eat, a boxed lunch of some shu mai, har gao, sticky rice could hit the spot. I don't think of the truck as appealing to people who want real dim sum, just good food fast. I'm actually thinking of trying to convince my FIL to start one of these. He had three successful restaurants and has been at loose ends since he sold them. I'm wondering, for lower overhead, if a dimsum push cart would work. It wouldn't be anything close to the OP's ideas but I think it's viable economically.

[ipsedixit]

"I'm wondering, for lower overhead, if a dimsum push cart would work."
_____________________________________________

Like hot dog carts?

I could see it now, walking around Times Square in NYC and seeing dim sum carts jockeying with hot dog and pretzel vendors for attention. Yeah, baby!

[chowser]

See, my idea is dimsum in the colder months, then go to bubble tea in the hot humid months. Who wouldn't want shu mai on a stick?

[ipsedixit]

"Who wouldn't want shu mai on a stick?"
______________________________________

... or chicken feet on a stick!

[K K]

They have fish siu mai dumplings on skewers with spicy soy sauce in Hong Kong as street snack food. That stuff can be quite good.

[gnomatic]

Oh man those siu mai on a stick are good stuff..but an entirely different food in my eyes. Is it me or are there sometimes fish in those?

The idea of dim sum truck is not particularly appealing, but those chinese street food carts would be great. Sui mai on a stick, curry fishballs, those egg waffles.. YUM! But hell, you can't really find the carts even in HK anymore, they were forced to move to storefronts after SARS.

Huh...on second thought...I wonder if SARS might not have caused the decline of the carts in dim sum joints in Hong Kong. I know they cracked down on the sanitary conditions/food safety quite a bit.

[ipsedixit]

I'm not saying that the Dim Sum Truck per se is the answer to your query; rather, I'm saying that the food truck model may be one way to do what One is doing in Hong Kong here in the U.S.

I've never had Dim Sum Truck's fare, and generally could care less about food trucks.

But if you want low overhead and efficiency, I think food trucks are definitely one vehicle to achieve both.

[scoopG]

The LA Dim Sum Truck has to be re-invented IMO. Dim Sum is the ultimate communal Chinese dining experience. I only eat dim sum when I can wrestle a posse together of 3,5 or 9 hombres. From the truck I'd want one shu mai, not 3-4. One BBQ Pork Bun, not two. And I'd need my fix of fresh and hot Choy Sum or Gai Lan with a bit of oyster sauce.

[ipsedixit]

If you've ever seen the crowds that congregate around the more popular food trucks in LA, dim sum a la food truck can indeed be a "communal" dining experience.

[K K]

There will be a need for a choi sum or gai lan truck to go with the Dim Sum Truck. Next to that they will need a tea pot truck, and perhaps a well needed cheung fun truck.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Ha ha ha

[ipsedixit]

I'll take any of those trucks, as long as they don't "do the dishes" the same way some of those Taiwanese street vendors "do the dishes".

One tub of clean water, one tub of "soap" water. In one tub, then in the other, then shake dry.

[raytamsgv]

At least they had soapy water. Once when I was in Hong Kong, I saw a guy selling fruit juice by the cup. He had only a tub of plain water for rinsing the cups.

[ipsedixit]

It's a good thing Chinese people have strong livers ...

[Chemicalkinetics]

It is a joke, no? Chinese have weak livers due to hepatitus.

[ipsedixit]

How do you think the Chinese got Hepatitis ...

[Chemicalkinetics]

dude,

I am not getting the logic here, man.

[gnomatic]

Because a lot of Chinese got Hepatitis through tainted food?

My HK relatives are absolutely paranoid about eating street foods because of Hepatitis...so much so they banned me from eating it when I visit...despite the fact I had all my shots (twice..thanks to going through both the Canadian & US immigration system).

[Chemicalkinetics]

gnomatic,

I understand that. Please read the several exchanges between ipsedixit and I.

In responding to you, what you are talking is hep A, which is the milder than other hep B and hep C. HBV and HCV are not transmittable by foods. A infant can get HBV from its mother during pregnancy. Hep B is particularly bad in China. Finally, I don't believe there is Hep C vaccine shot.

[chowser]

Or a jook truck.

Maybe instead of dim sum carts pushed around a restaurant, there could be rows of trucks like a reverse drive through. The ultimate Americanization.

[Tripeler]

Sounds horrible. So, then, why not servers dressed in coolie outfits with huge hats pulling ricksha-type carts each housing a burner and a chef.

[K K]

Yes but to keep it "old school" these dim sum trucks in place of carts should be driven by cranky old grannies, aka the dim sum push cart maidens of lore. I must say that in order to have a congee truck, we must have a truck that offers entirely parts related stuff, like tripe stew, booktripe with ginger sauce, chicken feet, and the Luk Yu Hong Kong pork liver siu mai to say the least.

[buttertart]

And each vendor has to announce their wares with a distinctive cry so you can rush down from your apartment to buy something (as in the roasted sweet potato vendors of happy memory in Chien T'an, Taipei, years ago...).

[K K]

Chien Tan? Isn't that where Shihlin night market is? I know in Japan the push cart vendors (used to) announce their sweet potatoes..."yaaaaaki imo!!!!" so I can only imagine what that was like in Taipei with "kao faaan shu!!!".

CK...yes...like old school Hong Kong ice cream truck (which strangely was just the imported Mister Softee). Dim Sum music, if old school, would just be the sound of high decibels of chit chat coupled with the rebel yells of dim sum pushy grannies, like a chaotic discordant opera.

You know this truck movement thing is going too far when we are now poking fun at it and having a good time doing so. :-o

[buttertart]

Yes we lived walking distance from where it is now. there were several hawkers going around the neighborhood during the day and at night. One late at night sounded like ...faaaak...afff...! Not sure what that was for!

[Chemicalkinetics]

K_K,

My mom and I used to run down stairs/elevator to get soft ice cream.

I am thinking about the little good old time that I still remember.

You know. Most of our youth memories are actually not real memories. They are simply creation of retold stories. Moms and dads tend to repeatedly tell us stories about our past events. When those stories are told enough, we create images and stored them in our head which become indistinguishable from real memories.

My soft ice cream memory are real because I don't remember them telling me stories about it, unlike the story about my first kindergarten school day.

[K K]

For the record, Mister Softee ice cream truck is still around in Hong Kong. Certainly it will not match up to the designer rendered pork fat curry savory ice cream gimmicks that are making waves, let alone supremely good all natural fresh Italian gelati, but for some of us, it's an interesting childhood memory that like you say is all to ourselves.

My memories of dim sum are all my own, no useful funny or cool stories from parents, but I do remember back in those days the in house PA system (to bark orders or to ask so and so to answer the phone, or table availability) was so loud, it was like the Dim Sum god/the man upstairs was angry.

[Chemicalkinetics]

"I do remember back in those days the in house PA system "... Now that you mentioned it, I remember some of those incidents.

[scoopG]

You have a point CK - "the mystic chords of memory" - in which we arrange our memories, to suit our current psychic needs. This allows our sense of history to play tricks on us. There is a strong historical narrative that pleads that we merely reconstruct our pasts, not accurately record them. We perhaps manipulate the past in an attempt to shape the present. Now where are those fish tacos with hoisin sauce?

[Chemicalkinetics]

This is getting to be like ice cream trucks. Maybe they should play music to annouce their arrival and you see people running after the trucks...

[K K]

I had the pleasure of re-reading the same article today about One Dim Sum, just stroke of luck. Let's see if I can complete the missing bits.

The owner of One Dim Sum spills some secrets of the way he runs his ship:

1) Keep the temperature (air conditioner thermostat) at 22 degrees C in the kitchen. That way your crew operates comfortably and consistently.

2) Use electric power for frying (saves on energy costs)

3) With such a tight space (around 300 to 400 sq ft) of kitchen space, cross contamination will be inevitable. Professionally train crew to avoid un-necessary cross contamination of food

4) There is an increased cost as a result of in house dim sum making, but the freshness and the fact you're not outsourcing the dim sum making externally is worth it.

5) Dim sum chefs have traditionally been men, but do not rule out hiring female dim sum chefs (over age of 30 is fine). Females tend to be more detail oriented and make great candidates.

6) A small but efficient dim sum place like ours will succeed in highly concentrated business areas with large density of office buildings, resulting in more traffic.

An overview of his restaurants offerings:

Ha Gow - Thin but structually sound skins, and a smooth/soft/juicy textured interior. Instead of using whole shrimp, mix it up into like a meatball (by hand) and do it for longer till it becames soft. A little more lard, a little more ginger and pepper.

Jung fan (various items over rice in a steamed tin pot, be it pork spareribs, spareribs and chicken feet, chicken and mushroom, or chinese sausage) - don't layer the steamers too ambitiously or too high, or else the condensation will drip downwards and your rice will be ruined.

Fried yuba rolls (fu pei guen) - before frying, use a moist towel to cover the rolls to prevent them from re-opening. Then blow dry for 15 mins before tossing them in the fryer.

Beef meatballs - add additional chopped water chestnuts to make it more juicy. If you have ten catties of meat, consider steaming them in 3 batches. Or else the meatballs will be red in the center and it will not taste fresh

Cha siu cheung fun - do not use overnight cha siu (leftover or not cooked fresh the same day) like the competition. Consider pulling/steaming the cheung fun skins thinner.

With regards to efficiency, the way the ship is run:

The amount of time taken between the moment the customer is done ordering to when food is delivered to his or her table is 3 minutes tops.

The amount of time taken the moment the customer walks through the door till he or she gets the check is no more than 20 minutes.

One Dim Sum attempts to have the same table go through 3 seatings in an hour on average.

[raytamsgv]

"The amount of time taken between the moment the customer is done ordering to when food is delivered to his or her table is 3 minutes tops."

I take it they must pre-cook their steamed items. I don't think it's possible to steam most items that quickly using standard steaming techniques. Fried items would be a different story.

[K K]

Certain items are somewhat pre-steamed, but prepped at least 5 hours in advance (starting circa 5 am, to ensure food is ready by 10 am when the first seating customers walk through the door). The article states that most of the regular dim sum items take 3 minutes to steam, but the rice tin bowls with various toppings take 15 minutes. It is all about careful planning.

I think the point of the article proves that at least in Hong Kong, "cheap/affordable, fast, good" for the consumer is not just an adage but achieveable if the conditions are all met.

I also like the fact that the article describes that going to work at One's is like going to war. One must be prepared for the daily battles.

[raytamsgv]

I still find it hard to believe that they can steam the sperically-shaped items in less than 3 minutes (assuming 30 seconds for the time it takes to relay the order to the kitchen, put in the dish in the steamer, remove the dish, and bring it to the table). If I have time, I'll run an experiment at home.

[Sooeygun]

But are they using the same kind of steamer as you use at home. High pressure commercial steamers work very fast. Based on the steamers I used, 3 minutes would be enough time.

[raytamsgv]

I doubt they are using pressure cookers. I believe they mentioned that certain dim sum items should be steamed above others. To me, that implies using the standard steamers found in most places serving dim sum. If that is the case, then they won't be any hotter than home setups except that the water will come to a boil faster.

[Sooeygun]

Not pressure cooker, pressure steamer
http://www.steamerworld.com/index-dir...

We were able to cook 1" pieces of salmon in 3.5 minutes.

[raytamsgv]

Very interesting. I've never used one, so I don't know what effect it would have on the dim sum wrappers. Thanks for the link.

[Chemicalkinetics]

I don't know. For the few Dim Sum I make at home like the standard Char Siu Bao, shrimp dumplings, siu mai, they can all be done easily within 10-15 minutes of steaming.

[ipsedixit]

I've finally digested this list you provided about One Dim Sum, and I can't say there's anything really groundbreaking.

It's just the sort of "Henry Ford" model of fast-food that lots of restaurant chains here in the U.S. have adopted in one form or another.

I know that Starbucks implements even tighter time and product controls to maximize the amount of profit/person given the number of baristas' time for each drink or order. Same for McDonald's, BK, etc.

In college, I had a buddy of mine working at burger fast food chain (that shall remain anonymous) and they actually had their burger wrapper supplier make the paper more supple so that it was easier to fold and wrap, thus reducing the time it took to package each burger or sandwich.

[scoopG]

One main difference is that all of the big chains are using overly processed food so no actual cooking at McDonald's, Starbucks etc. takes place.

[K K]

I completely agree with you, there is no real innovation with the small efficient dim sum mom & pop shop model.

But that is the latest wave in the world of Hong Kong dim sum. It is considered trendy to go to a more downscale neighborhood place, where you can get the basics done right, in quality, and efficient (especially those who are in a hurry during the work week, or are not there to socialize). No matter where you go or whatever newsprint/gossip print you read published locally, these mom & pop shops are still called "steamed to order" places, even if they might not be (or could be? I haven't been to one yet).

However this is not to say innovation is lost. The typical seafood restaurants thus have to stay competitive, and thus will be willing to spend more resources to come up with something interesting and refreshing that the small shops cannot do, to attract the consumers willing to pay more. Then of course there's the extreme places like the fancy hotels, or that 3 Michelin star Lung King Heen at the Four Seasons.

[nooyawka]

I'm 41 and grew up in NYC. I'm a carts-only man. The checksheet method may be efficient, but I think it lacks character. In the 70s, it was the carts method. My family and I regularly went to Tong Gung on Pell Street, in recent years, renamed Hay Won Loy. Some restaurants in NYC have had, or currently have, the checksheet method. This is also used at some restaurants that have late-night dim sum.

I understand that some argue for the checksheets saying the dim sum is fresher. I don't buy this argument necessarily. I don't see a reason why the carts method can't be just as fresh if done right. The key is turnover. The quicker they sell, the fresher they remain. It all depends on the dim sum operation. They can keep them warmed properly. You need cartspeople that take the initiative. Old-school, they would holler them out. This must be revived. A lot of servers are lazy and don't engage customers. Or the restaurant's policy does not require them to yell out the names. Secondly, a lot of restaurants are either too lazy or don't want to spend the money on bilingual signs or plaques on the carts, so that would eliminate a lot of questions, or the opposite, stir questions from curious customers (non-Chinese), who might then increase sales volume.

I was brought to Luk Yu by my mom when I returned to Hong Kong. Quite an eye-opener.

Thanks for the post.

[Parigi]

Fascinating research.

I would like to share some info from my childhood memories.

1. Indeed Luk Yu in HK has had a long history of using check sheets. It has always prided itself on making its dimsum from scratch. But it was for a long time an exception. I don't remember any dimsum places in HK, when I was growing up, using the check sheet. Therefore one can't really say the use of check sheet had a long history.

2. This distinction also had to do with lifestyle. When I used to tag along my parents to dimsum restos, dimsum was a stretched-out meal where you order a dish, then chat with friends for an hour, then another dish, then more chat. Drove us children bonkers. But those were the old dimsum manners. Often people went to the tea houses rather early and made it into a long brunch. Ordering by check sheet would entail ordering the entire lunch, more or less. In those good old days when the word leisure still had some meaning in HK, one would poopoo such style of ordering. You go there for the company, not just for vulgar pigout. In even older times, when some restos actually served opium as post-dessert, young scions of rich families would spend all morning in the dimsum houses and would bring their own bird in an exquisitely decorated birdcage, and their bird and their rival's bird would duke it out competing singing across the aisle. -- I have not seen this as I am not 100 years old. But my childhood was filled with these stories of famous families and their famous birds.

3. There are carts and carts. The older cart system had young ladies carying a cart held by a long strap around their neck. The chef would make a batch of fresh dimsum, to be dispatched by these young ladies who in a singsong voice called out the names of dishes. Those bird-toting playboys woudl order dimsum only from attractive young things who had caught their eye. For some pretty waittresses, their cart would be empty as they barely left the kitchen. Others who made the round and came back to the kitchen with a relatively full cart would be chewed out in the worst way by the chef. The especially pretty and popular waittresses were nicknamed the dimsum queens. -- I don't understand why the dimsum queen lore had its own fadeout along with the neck-strapped carts, when pushcarts became the norm, possibly in the 70s (I remember remarking a pushcart in a dimsum place, after which we ran into Bruce Lee whose car was parked behind ours and who waved at us, hence the carbon-dating of the 70s; in fact he died a week later). Is there any erotic allure about a woman carrying a cart of food on a long strap around her neck? Shades of Gauguin? And a woman pushing a cart just ain't the same thing?

[buttertart]

Think of the sexy cigarette girls of yore...maybe there is!

[Parigi]

Exactly what I was going to add:
Like the cigarette girls in old Bogey movies.

[K K]

Parigi, I just checked your profile.....we have one thing in common, a love for Law Fu Kee! I have not visited that restaurant since 1988 or 1989, but still remember their glorious yet simple offerings.

It's always nice to hear historical perspectives from others, too. I must admit that while growing up, I did not have dim sum at that many other restaurants. Luk Yu I think my family and I have been to once or twice, but to a kid growing up, I couldn't tell the difference then, except hearing family complain that it was very expensive relative to other places.

As our weekend family gatherings included the cousins, uncles/aunts, grandparents, going to a random or different places would also mean dealing with other logistics such as parking (already a huge issue during the 80s), securing a table (especially when reservations were typically not accepted for the most part then), and most importantly, being able to dine in peace and comfort.

Looking back, it was because of those factors that drove my family weekend gatherings away from the loud, brash, sometimes dirty or nitty gritty type restaurant environments (and thus competing with people for table, food, space),

To tell the truth, practically every Sunday, we used to religiously retreat to the Royal Hong Kong Jockey Club (when it was by the race course in Happy Valley), and they had a restaurant in the upper level somewhere (above 6th floor) that served dim sum in a lot more quiet and subdued environment. I can't remember if there were push carts, but most ordering was done through the waiter, who then took the orders out via hand held trays. The usual classics were there, minus cheung fun (steamed rice rollades/crepes) for some reason, but the uncles would always get an order of cha siu (bbq pork) over a bowl of perfectly steamed rice, and of course the obligatory lo sui sauce (the sexy marinade that makes white rice into bbq pork rice). Other than that, I never found their dim sum to be spectacular, but unfortunately I had no vote at the time where to eat, so this place was picked strictly out of convenience (card carrying members could easily get a parking space anyway).

In terms of checksheets, I recall going to a place in Wanchai (no longer around) called Regent Seafood, during my summer holidays from school on weekdays, and they had checksheet. This was probably between 1986 to 1989. But otherwise push carts were defnitely more common.

From young pretty girls with trays to push cart grannies.... hmmm, quite the transition indeed.

[Chemicalkinetics]

"Royal Hong Kong Jockey Club"

That is a pretty nice quite place. Need membership though. Neverthless, I find the food in that place as good, but not great. It is an elite environment.

[K K]

Yeah and that restaurant was called Fortune Seven or something like that, indicating it was on the 7th floor. The "Six Furlong", on the 6th floor, was for local style western, where you could have assorted cakes and such. The dim sum restaurant served Cantonese dinners (no dim sum), but as a kid I would abhore such environments and rather get it over with.

Another memory I have was that in addition to the bbq pork rice, we would get either Fujian Fried Rice or the HK style vegetarian fried flat thick noodle. At least it wasn't terribly greasy. Then again the club had such limited varieties of dim sum, we needed those starch plates to fill up anyway. I'm still upset they never had cheung fun.

Sometime in 1999, I visited the club after they moved to its more prestigious digs much further up the hills, and they had basically a Canadian style Mauvenpick self help cafeteria (tons of choices), all very high quality of course.

There used to be one place in Causeway Bay, I want to say Windsor Palace (does that place exist anymore?) pretty much in the same or adjacent building to where HMV is/was, my fondest dim sum memory there was a beef bone marrow steamed dim sum item, in some thick spare ribs type thick sauce (no doubt enhanced with MSG). The marrow was thick, mildly chewy, and had texture, unlike the kind where one would suck up with a straw through the bone. It was heaven.

Another dim sum trend that existed in the last 10 years, made some waves in HK, but never really caught on in the USA, were re-interpretations of dim sum, basically molded and modeled to look like animals, sea creatures, and nicknamed Cartoon dim sum. For example one place might make wu kok (fried taro puff) to look like a little piglet or a bumblebee, or ha gow (shrimp dumpling) to look like a squid, octopus, or rabbit.

[Chemicalkinetics]

My memory of HK is very vague. I have not been there for ages. I do remember that I did silly things when I were a kid and that is about it. Regarding the animal dim sum, I don't know how I feel about it. I think I have to see them in person to form my feeling. I may find them very cute or I may find them distractive.

I do like piglet and bmbebee.

[K K]

Here are some random pics I found, some might be in China

http://the-sun.on.cc/cnt/lifestyle/20091108/photo/1108-00479-001b8.jpg

http://i3.dpfile.com/2009-11-15/3152020_b.jpg

http://images.blemall.com/picserver/xwpic/00/39/XW_00391719_2.jpg

http://images.blemall.com/picserver/xwpic/00/39/XW_00391719_0.jpg

And here's a place quite well known in HK for animal dim sum
(in Tsim Sa Tsui's 映月樓
)http://guccicat.pixnet.net/blog/post/24751909

http://blog.ifeng.com/article/3613316...

[Chemicalkinetics]

KK,

Thanks for the link. I looked through the first few links. I will look at the later ones at home later. They look like laborsome. I see a lot of pigs and penguins. The more traditional looking ones still touches my heart more. The photos are beautifully shot. Thanks.

[Parigi]

Very interesting links.
Honestly many of the dishes look creepy and chemical.
Sigh, there's a trend for you: c&c.

[buttertart]

Nice, touches your heart. Sly one, aren't you? :)

[Chemicalkinetics]

Buttertart,

Ha ha ha. Believe or not, that was unintentional. I wanted to say "pulling on my heartstring", but I forgot the exact phrase and spelling, so I wrote "touches my heart".

Not until you said I am being a sly one, then I realize Dim Sum = Touches Heart.

[buttertart]

It made me smile, dear Ck.

[K K]

Suddenly I feel like nomming on some hedgehogs

http://ameblo.jp/fukufuku8/image-1003...

[buttertart]

Oh my god they're sooo cute - they really look like little baby hedgehogs!

[Chemicalkinetics]

Yes, and I will probably play with them than eat them.

[Chemicalkinetics]

It's so fluffy, I'm gonna die!!!

***

I just watched the movie "Despicable Me" today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hox5HN...

[Parigi]

All those clubs, - Jockey, HK Club, etc., - provide a less "combative" dining atmosphere, by which I mean people from different tables don't fight over food. Indeed their food is usually not the best, although not bad.
Yeah, KK, I live in Paris yet dream about a Law Fu Gay carp head…

[Chemicalkinetics]

I like to combat. It will prove my stature. Ha ha.

[grayelf]

I am a sucker for the carts, to the extent that I am keeping a running list of which restos in Vancouver still have them (few and dwindling, I'm sorry to say). The carts to me seem to promote the idea of dim sum better which is to have what your heart desires. I've never had a problem with stuff on carts being stale, but that may be because I've been eating it this way for so long I can spot a tired basket a mile away :-). Dad used to take us to places in Chinatown several times a month, back when there were still good restaurants in Chinatown. That is probably part of the reason that I still judge dim sum places by their ability to turn out really good har gow and other "classics" and am less impressed by attempts to innovative.

[FrankD]

I disagree that the checklist increases turnover. I remember going to a cart place in HK in the mid-90's, and we were eating, literally, within a minute of sitting down. Because the tables were large and rectangular, you had to share with strangers, so they didn't use "plate" method to bill you; instead, you were given a blank bill when you sat down, and the ladies just stamped it after they served you. We ate quite a lot, but I think we were in and out within 20 minutes.

I think what the checklist does is reduce waste, and thus help keep costs down. I also think it reduces staff cost, and makes the kitchen run a bit more smoothly, but that's just conjecture on my part.

[raytamsgv]

It's not just about turnover. It's also about fitting as many patrons as possible in a limited space. If you have carts, you need wider aisles to accommodate them, thereby reducing the number of tables and seats.

[fourunder]

I would have to respectfully disagree with your assessment regarding aisle widths. First and foremost, there are regulations that require certain width requirements and patron capacity with the building departments and fire departments. You cannot open a restaurant without having an architect design a floor plan and it must be approved before a certificate of occupancy will be issued. Safety is a universal constant in restaurant design, whether in California, New York or Hong Kong. If anything, establishments will test the limits and add more seating capacity to test the boundaries in smaller places, but the larger ones have all the seating capacity and space they can handle. Adding ten or twenty more tables really does not affect the amount of food they prepare for the day or next. They always plan on running at full capacity and according to a set schedule for item to be served/prepared...especially on weekends. Carts for large restaurants probably have more to do with efficiency concerns and physical limitations of the kitchen.

I was just in NYC's Chinatown yesterday, at both Jing Fong and Grand Harmony., and both restaurants had typical width aisles of about four feet and up to six feet in higher traffic areas. They were not stretched out in any way to accommodate the carts

[raytamsgv]

I'm jealous that you've been to places with such wide aisles. I've been to places where I could barely walk through the aisles, although that's probably because I'm such an awesome physical specimen.

Larger restaurants can afford to have more space between their tables, but this is not necessarily true for smaller restaurants. I don't think they would stretch out aisles to accommodate carts, but they can pack more people in if they switch from carts. If a smaller restaurant can increase the number of tables by 10%, it would increase their profits significantly.

[fourunder]

r,

I see your point of view, but again, even smaller restaurants prepare a certain amount of food to be served for a days service....whether it be for 500, 1000 or more......, for the anticipated number of guest s on a given day. Larger restaurants may/ would probably have a dedicated preparation area in the kitchen with a large staff to handle the production and would be able to devote time to the tedious task of make the various dim sum. Smaller kitchens would not have this luxury. Kitchens designs limit the amount of any food that can be prepared at any given time as well. More tables does not mean the food can come out any faster, in this case for an increase in the number of additional tables. Assuming they steam the dim sum in large woks, only so much(finite number) food/steamer baskets can be fitted and steamed at any given time.

Last, ordering off a list to me would actually cost sales overall in my opinion...I can tell you from my experience and knowledge of Chinese dining, sharing is a main attraction and family dining(sharing) is a given. That means less is actually ordered for the table.....the attitude being, we will order a few things now and see how it goes. If we want more, we will order more. With checklist ordering, this may be done a couple of times, possibly three, but I doubt it would be done any more due to wait times....especially if the place is busy. Cart Service has one undeniable aspect you have overlooked,.......impulse buying. If there are others out there like myself, I eat with my eyes and like to try different items I have not yet had before. This past weekend at the two places I mentioned earlier our part was for six, but I planned to take some items home for family members who could not attend. When the carts came around, I ordered/took extras to place in containers for take-out. Granted, I could ordered a set number of plates of certain items, two items per person, but I would not have been able to order extras that met the eye test. At the end of the the meal and when the tally was taken.....we had taken a total number of 38 plates for 9 people(six at the table and three at home)......I doubt I would have ordered that many off of a list.

btw, the 38 number of plates was only for our first sit-down at Jing Fong. It did not include the second visit at Grand Harmony, where I only ordered take-out....our second sit-down was at Shanghai Cafe, where we ordered off the menu (for 5 this time) ....and only ordered three orders of Soup Dumplings and a plate of fried rice for a rookie.

[ipsedixit]

"Cart Service has one undeniable aspect you have overlooked,.......impulse buying. If there are others out there like myself, I eat with my eyes and like to try different items I have not yet had before."
___________________________________________

The dim sum menus all have pictures that, for all intents and purposes, allow just as much eye-candy as those carts. I would argue that, in fact, menu pictures offer more eye candy than carts because the dim sum in carts are usually covered up in those little medal or bamboo cannisters (desserts being one of the exceptions).

[Chemicalkinetics]

Sorry. I agree Fourunder on this one. When the cart comes, it put me on the spot. I have to decide right there and then if I want the dim sum. If I say no, they may be gone forever. The menu thing is not the same. I never felt I have to order something on the menu because it may be gone in 2 minute.

[K K]

All very good points.

If it is "gone forever" you can ask the waiter to help you get one (if the kitchen is going to make more or there are extras in there).

Real experienced eaters who know what they want, will just take matters into their own hands and put in an order with the waiter.

But one cannot know absolutely what the kitchen has to offer that day. There are places that upsell off menu items, despite the best efforts of the restaurant to try to put them on the menu. Sometimes it makes little sense to put something on the menu that is experimental, or it is offered weekends only, and thus the carts or waitstaff with trays doing the rounds is put to good use here.

I don't think carts can be done away entirely for a restaurant (even for the checksheeters), someone still has to deliver the dishes and steamers outside. Perhaps on a smaller scale, waitstaff walking around with trays and smaller plates to upsell other things, so long as there's room to walk between tables.

[Chemicalkinetics]

K_K

There is a logical and emotional side to this thing. Emotionally, I am attached to dim sum on push carts or dim sum carried in a tray. I will be crashed if dim sum turns into like a steakhouse where I will be looking at a menu and request a medium-rare Char Siu Bao (Cantonese BBQ pork buns) is just too much for me.

[ipsedixit]

Now THAT would be cool.

- I would like a shu-mai, al dente please.

- Phoenix claws ... extra spicy.

- Oh, and please supersize my egg tarts!

[K K]

I too am of the old school and get sentimental (although not weepy) when the old ways start to fade out in favor of new trends (or "improved ways of doing business".

I don't mean to be alarmist, but in reading a few Hong Kong Chinese blogs, some folks claim that there are only a handful of restaurants over there that still do carts. Literally everyone else is doing checksheets, perhaps hand held trays are still available. The checksheet thing is now strictly being used to promote "made fresh to order", partly to satisfy the local customer requirements (who seem to prefer quality over having carts), but also maximizing real estate to seat more customers.

It would be interesting that in the future, the only way to get a cart experience is to fly to some North American metropolitan Chinatown restaurant, or go to some stuck in time place that doesn't care to emulate business and food trends out of Hong Kong.

The other controversy is that there are places that no longer make their dim sum in house, instead are made offsite, frozen, trucked into the restaurant, reheated/steamed and served. Apparently there are/were places like that in HK in the last 10 to 20 years. Hopefully this won't be something that catches on in the US...(and who really knows what goes behind the scenes anyway either way....)

[cheesemaestro]

"The checksheet thing is now strictly being used to promote 'made fresh to order', partly to satisfy the local customer requirements. . .but also maximizing real estate to seat more customers."

There's another reason. Dim sum in the US is no longer limited to large cities with bustling Chintatowns. Restaurants in medium-sized and even small cities now serve it. These restaurants generally don't attract enough customers who want dim sum either to specialize only in dim sum or to have cart service. One of the two places that serve dim sum in my area initially used checksheets on weekdays and had carts on weekends. They eventually had to switch to checksheets seven days a week and prepare all dim sum to order. The other restaurant never had carts. As someone who grew up with the cart experience, I miss having it where I live, but I can't honestly say that the quality of the food has suffered with checksheets.

[Chemicalkinetics]

K_K,

"hand held trays are still available." That is just as good for me. There were certainly checksheet decades ago in Hong Kong, but I still like the push carts because it is just so awesome. Everytime I see a cart comes by, I get excited what it has for me. There is that surprise and mystery elements to it.

"places that no longer make their dim sum in house, instead are made offsite, frozen, trucked into the restaurant, reheated/steamed and served"

This is certainly a business model and I can see the efficiency in that. Heck, when I make my Char Siu Bao at home. I make at least 24 buns and there is no way I can eat 24 buns at one time, so I sometime freeze them (in the dough form before steaming). Most of the time, I just bring them to work to share.

My problem is that this trend loses individuality. In the long run, we may have a few dim sum factories which supply to restaurants. First, this loses individuality. Second, the overall quality will come down. In other words, “quality control” will dominate and food will be prepared in the lowest denomination.

Think cookies. Most mass-produced cookies (like Pepperidge Farm) cannot top home baked cookie. What Pepperride Farm has is excellent quality control. You know this bag of Pepperidge Farm in California will be taste the same as another bag in New York. Yet, I don’t know if I want that for Dum Sum. Do I want to have my Char Siu Bao tastes exactly the same from ten restaurants? This will get really boring fast.

[EWSflash]

That's exactly how I feel about it. I end up ordering more from the pushcarts, I think, because of the visual appeal. And maybe it'll taste better at another place, or maybe just look better? I also used to eat a lot more sushi when you ordered by the piece rather than a checklist, for the same reason.

[grayelf]

I've never eaten at a sushi restaurant that had checklists... interesting.

[K K]

Quite a few sushi restaurants in Northern California have checksheet style pieces of paper, also known as the "sushi menu" that is more detailed than the regular menu that includes cooked food. In that regard, it's akin to checksheet dim sum, but it's all fish and rice related hand made things.

[ipsedixit]

I think this use of a checklist is more prevalent in Chinese owned sushi joints, at least in Southern California.

[FrankD]

Toronto is flush with "all you can eat" sushi spots, virtually all of which (echoing the baseball principle "If his last name's Black, he's white, and if his last name's White, he's black") are run by Koreans. If you choose the AYCE option, you always get a checklist to tick off the items you want.

[southernitalian]

That's interesting. Almost every sushi place I've been to in my current home of Charlotte, NC and my hometown of NYC has checklists. And I'm unaware of Chinese ownership at any of them.

[buttertart]

Strictly sushi places likely not (althousgh Koreans run some). Any place serving Chinese food and sushi is most likely run by Taiwanese, sushi is a big part of their food scene - Japanese influences on the cuisine persist from the days of the occupation (1895-1945). One of my students in Taipei was 100% convinced sushi was Taiwanese in origin.

[scoopG]

Good point - plus how many young Hongkong youths want to start out at low pay coupled with long hours.

[Chemicalkinetics]

SccopG,

This move (shifting Dum Sum making off site) does not create wealth and therefore cannot eliminate low pay jobs. The only difference is that the manufacturing process is away from your eyes and ears.

[scoopG]

Not sure about wealth creation but I think my point was, from the article in the WSJ I linked, was that; it may difficult to bring in a new generation to the dim sum kitchen. But alas, all hope is not lost. If the following can happen in Hongkong (and please be patient in the 1-2 minute overture) then I see no reason why dim sum in Hongkong will not prosper....maybe in that 24-room apt!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg9qnW...

[Chemicalkinetics]

ScoopG,

Dim Sum is not going to disappear like flour doll. In the case of flour doll, we have ashrinking demand and shrinking supply which essentially kill the entire business.

http://image24.webshots.com/24/9/73/7...

I really don't see the demand of Dim Sum goes away. Prepackage frozen dim sum are just not the same. If people don't mind to have prepackaged frozen dim sum, then there is no reason why they cannot steam up the same dim sum at home.

Handmade fresh Dim Sum may go upscale. The demand remains, the supply shrinks. Volume reduces, price increases. There will still be Dim Sum restaurants but it won't be a common affair, rather it will be a special event.

That youtube video scares me.

[chowser]

Hand made fresh dimsum won't disappear but more and more places buy frozen from big cities. I know someone who has a very popular dim sum and that's where he get all of his. It's far too labor intensive and expensive to have a staff who knows how to make it and most of his customers don't know the difference. I'm sure he's not unique.

[Chemicalkinetics]

I am going to cry

[gnomatic]

I have to respectfully disagree with Safety being a universal constant. My brother worked as an architect in Hong Kong. Being trained in Canada...he was horrified at how safety was routinely ignored and the lack of safety requirements/laws. He visited many project sites where it was not unusual to find the fire doors pad locked and/or blocked.

[fourunder]

He visited many project sites where it was not unusual to find the fire doors pad locked and/or blocked.
___________________________________________

A project site is not the same as a design phase and later restaurant operation. Yes there are places that block fire doors and padlock them...it happens all over the world and not just in restaurants....but it more of the exception than the rule. Get a heavy fine and you will see the practice stops very quickly.

[Chemicalkinetics]

I vote for carts. The carts keep the food warmer and it represent a sense of down-to-earth atmosphere. I can totally see Dim Sum goes mainstream.

[scoopG]

I guess it cuts both ways regarding any debate about high-end Chinese cuisine. We have such a place in NYC and then folks complain about shelling out for higher prices when they are used to paying pennies in Chinatown.

http://www.chinatownbrasserie.com/

[southernitalian]

When I lived in NYC, we'd go downtown to Chinatown when we wanted dim sum or really authentic Chinese. But there were dozens of Chinese restaurants on the UES and UWS that catered more to the Americans in those neighborhoods. And some of them (certainly not all) were quite "fancy". Think of the Chinese restaurant on that Seinfeld episode!

[cecilia]

I grew up in HK and moved to Toronto in 1990. My family went for dim sum at least once a week if not more. We typically went to mid-range (price-wise) dim sum restaurants. They only had carts. There are plaques in front of the cart to tell you what's in the cart. I don't remember seeing the checksheet / picklist menu until the mid-80s when we started going to high-end places (Chinese restaurant inside the Peninsula hotel, Shangri-La, etc.) Also, those were also the first times where I tried more innovative dim sum dishes. And at these hotel restaurants, around Christmas time, Santa would visit the tables and give out small presents to the kids. I remember one other restaurant in Causeway Bay where the ladies would carry trays like Luk Yu.

In Toronto now, there are still some dim sum restaurants with carts. Some restaurants would have carts on the weekend and checklists during the week. And there are a few dim sum restaurants that does the swallow's nest and foie gras.

I get very disappointed when a dim sum restaurant only has the 'new' menu items and leaves the traditional items off the menu. I like my egg tart, chicken feet, and tripe. Traditional and well made beats innovative but poorly executed any day for me.

[K K]

Don't these fancy hotel dim sum joints charge US$12+ for an order of ha gow, as excellent as it will be?

[raytamsgv]

We used to eat dim sum regularly in LA Chinatown in the mid and late 70's. In the mid-70's, they had men carry around large circular dim sum trays with one hand. Usually, they were carried at least at shoulder level or higher. In the other hand, they carried a folding stand.

They would roam amongst the tables. When you wanted something, they'd set the stand on the ground with that hand and place the tray on it. You could then select whichever dish you wanted or have him select it for you. In those days, your bill was calculated by the number and size of the dishes left on your table. More expensive items were put on the larger dishes.

I don't recall exactly when the carts made their appearance, but I would say at the earliest in the late 70's and definitely by the early 80's. Because the physical demands weren't so great, women were hired to push around the carts. I think around the same time, restaurants started using the stamp system to keep track of what you ate. Legend has it that this started in Hong Kong because patrons were throwing the dishes out the windows and into the harbor to reduce the bill.

Even in the early 90's, I seem to recall visiting at least on dim sum place that used the checklist method of ordering, but that is a hazy memory.

In the future, I think the Chinese restaurants will begin to consolidate, such as what has already happened in parts of the San Gabriel Valley near LA and also in parts the San Francisco Bay area. The richer restaurants will buy out the others, and chains will expand. We will see more chains and greater standardization of menus and items. The biggest independents will probably survive and thrive.

There will also probably be more high-end Chinese restaurants that will try to attract more non-Chinese patrons. It's too hard to compete strictly on price, so they will try to get people to dine there for the experience: good customer service, ambiance, etc. You still have have your mom and pop places. It'll be similar to what has happened to Italian food in the US.

[ipsedixit]

"There will also probably be more high-end Chinese restaurants that will try to attract more non-Chinese patrons. It's too hard to compete strictly on price, so they will try to get people to dine there for the experience: good customer service, ambiance, etc. You still have have your mom and pop places. It'll be similar to what has happened to Italian food in the US."
_____________________________________________________

Do you really think this will be the case?

I've always wondered why some of the more high-end Hong-Kong banquet restuarants don't try and up the ante and cater to a more non-Chinese clientele.

In our neck of the woods, I think Mission 261 tried, but ultimately they dropped their efforts even before the remodel. Ditto with the Kitchen.

I think part of the problem with creating a high-end Chinese restaurant with posh surroundings, customer service, etc. that will appeal to a non-Chinese crowd is that there aren't enough non-Chinese cusomters to support such a place. Most Chinese folks simply don't really care (at least not here in the States, and things are generally different in Hong Kong).

I suppose one can say that Mr. Chow and Crustacean (in Los Angeles) might be as close as you get to "Chinese" and "high-end" being spoken in the same breath.

[chowser]

Has there been a high end Chinese restaurant in the US? Dim sum, earlier in the day, doesn't seem to lend itself to high end dining as much but a tapas like menu with higher end dim sum type items seems like it could work. Maybe not in an area like LA or SF where there is a large number of good dim sum places but in DC where there is a larger "foodie" scene--people with money who would pay for it but not try a hole in the wall dim sum place. This is where places like the Bombay Club does very well.

[ipsedixit]

I guess it depends on what you mean by "high end".

High end like French Laudry, Per Se, Alinea, etc.? No.

[chowser]

I just looked up Mr. Chow (unfortunate name--it sounds like a bad american chinese restaurant) and I'm thinking along those lines for "high end". How is it, as food goes? I lived in the LA area almost 20 years ago and don't remember anything close to that back then. I don't think (I'm pretty sure) there's nothing like that in the DC area and I don't know why. I think it would do well.

[ipsedixit]

Mr. Chow?

In one word: Hype.

It's for the Hollywood crowd and CAA agents on business accounts who are too afraid to go to a real Chinese restaurant (and are too full of themselves to admit it).

In the DC area, I would say it's sort of like Cafe Atlantico's Sunday dim sum menu. Go there if you're not intrepid enough to walk a half-mile more into Chinatown ...

[K K]

Funny...we have a local Panda Express like chain called Mr Chow's or something like that, so when I first heard of Mr Chow in Hollywood, I was chuckling....until I learned more about it.

[chowser]

I was thinking something like Mr. Chow would do really well here--because of the reasons it's popular in Beverly Hills. I wonder why no one has done it.

[ipsedixit]

Mr. Chow's would probably work in the District if it catered to the politicos and the K Street crowd as opposed to the Hollywood types in LA.

[buttertart]

The Café Atlantico dim sum brunch has very little to do with dim sum/dian xin other than the size of the plates. Don't recall seeing foam on anything or raw fish included in anything in dim sum places in any of the places I've eaten them (Toronto, Taipei, HK, Suzhou, New York).

[raytamsgv]

Dim sum is just part of the repertoire of a good Cantonese restaurant. It is notoriously difficult to predict food trends. Who would have ever thought that something as simple as pizza or pasta would ever be found in upscale restaurants or that broken rice would become a staple of Vietnamese cuisine?

[K K]

I can name quite a few very decent Cantonese restaurants in San Francisco Bay Area, yet they do not do dim sum at all. But it seems that this may be true in your area/SoCal....so the better Canto joints are the big conglomerate owned seafood joints that have dim sum making capacity?

[ipsedixit]

"so the better Canto joints are the big conglomerate owned seafood joints that have dim sum making capacity?"

____________________________________________

Yes. Not necessarily conglomerates (maybe Sea Harbour counts as one), but places like Lunasia and Elite are all some of the best Canto banquet restaurants and they certainly devote a good part of their kitchen staff to do dim sum. In fact, Lunasia has started (gasp!) dinner dim sum service.

[chowser]

This is what I was thinking along the lines of a good dim sum place--that it often goes hand in hand with banquets. My FIL had a very successful one, packed for dim sum, banquets booked for months but dinner service was lukewarm.

[chowser]

Predicting food trends, or setting them? I was thinking someone could start the trend, as Wolfgang Puck did, with dim sum. And, in these days when people want to cut back and eat smaller portions, it could fit the bill.

[raytamsgv]

"I think part of the problem with creating a high-end Chinese restaurant with posh surroundings, customer service, etc. that will appeal to a non-Chinese crowd is that there aren't enough non-Chinese cusomters to support such a place. Most Chinese folks simply don't really care (at least not here in the States, and things are generally different in Hong Kong). "

I agree with you. We really don't have high-end and high-quality Chinese restaurants in LA. I'm just theorizing that in the future, a number of Chinese restaurants will move toward the higher end in order to make a profit. But it will take time.

When the Italians first came to the US, their food was anything but high-end. Many decades later, chefs are making pilgrimages to small Italian villages to learn how to make dishes found in the countryside.

Fifty years ago, could anyone have imagined what dim sum (or any other form of Chinese cuisine for that matter) would take in the 21st century? Fifty years from now, who knows what might happen.

[K K]

There was a dim sum hunting thread on the Japan board. I inquired about two to three restaurants around the Tokyo Tsukiji Fish Market and Ginza area, one of which was a branch of Fook Lum Moon HK, and it turns out the only dim sum they serve was part of a set meal that included soup, rice, entree, seafood item (braised abalone) and you would get one steamer of dumplings and that's it. Forgot which one, but one order of siu mai was $15.... I guess that's "high end" for the locals, but no self respecting Hong Kong VIP golfer type would take the plunge.

[K K]

" I think around the same time, restaurants started using the stamp system to keep track of what you ate. Legend has it that this started in Hong Kong because patrons were throwing the dishes out the windows and into the harbor to reduce the bill."

Yep I heard the same story! Seems to be the precursor method like going to a conveyor belt sushi restaurant....in the old days, waitstaff tallies your bill by looking at the # of plates (or steamers) shouts the amount loud enough for the cashier to hear to ring you up. Stamp card became the parking ticket for the final tallying.

Before I left HK for good, during and up till the late 80s, there were places that did checksheet as well as pushcarts.

[ipsedixit]

I want to say that menu-style dim sum is "new" in the sense that it was only recently re-introduced in Hong Kong in the past 20 years or so.

But, if I recall correctly from what my grandfather told me, dim sum was originally sold as an accompaniment at tea houses (sort of like Starbucks selling pastries with the coffee). So you would order the tea, and then order the dim sum items from, yes, a menu.

I think it was only after dim sum became more of a meal served in restaurants, and less of a side dish to pass the time while reading the paper, or playing maijong, or shooting the breeze while drinking tea, did dim sum start being served in carts, or even by ladies carrying front-loaded backpacks of steamed bamboo trays.

Just my 0.02

[K K]

Now that's a whole topic in itself (first sentence of your last paragraph).

Somewhere and sometime in there, and probably useless trivia, before it became popular to bring a newspaper to hog a table (better time spent with that on the crapper), old retiree dudes would do their taichi in the AM, then make a beeline to the dim sum joint with a pet bird in a finely constructed wooden cage. Did this caged bird pre-newspaper phenomenon ever catch on in US Chinatowns in the past?

[raytamsgv]

Pets are usually prohibited in most US restaurants, so that did not catch on. That's why Chow Yun Fat never filmed a gun battle in a dim sum restaurant in the US.

[scoopG]

Interesting question. I've talked to some folks who recall cart dim sum being introduced into NYC in the 1970's. And I know some old timers in Hongkong thought the quality of Luk Yu was never the same after they moved to a new location in the late 1980's!

Amy Ma of the WSJ claims dim sum dates from the Warring States period (475 BCE - 221 CE) - without providing any evidence. Before the 6th century only fragmentary texts exist on Chinese agriculture, eating and drinking habits etc. Seems most dim sum chefs in Hongkong are over 40 and that it is difficult to survive on a starting wage of HK$ 50 per hour in these places.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001...

[K K]

Thanks for the article. I must have read it a while back but forgot about it.

My parents who left HK during the cultural revolution and settled in NY, recall waiting on the stairs of the most popular (and perhaps only) dim sum restaurant in Chinatown. I recall a comment by my late father about a siu mai being the size of a fist, and while edible, was not very good at all.

I believe the concept of dim sum has been around for aeons. But the idea of tea houses that ended up serving "small bites", meaning a pot of tea sold with two items (maybe a dumpling and a bao, big enough to be a complete meal in portion) aka 一盅兩件 which was the dim sum as we know it in its infancy, probably is less than 200 years (is my guess).

[K K]

While we're on the subject of history, here is a data point provided by a travel guide book I have (written in Chinese)

Before 1903, there were tea houses or 茶樓and establishments that served banquet type food but more specifically alcohol 酒樓. Tea houses were the places where people would go for dim sum and the latter would be also associated with businesses that also operated as either brothels or selling fireworks. In 1935, brothels were banned by the Hong Kong government, and thus the places that served alcohol became legitimate businesses by going the way of tea houses.

Tea houses in the early days had typically had two floors, ground level and upper level seating. Upper level charges were higher and targeted toward the wealthy, while the ground floor served the regular folk. The tea houses would try to drum up more business by inviting famous singers to perform, and some even hired younger girls as "tea ladies" that became a hit with the male customers. At some point in history, I suppose these tea ladies became the dim sum maidens (or grannies) that pushed the carts. Dim sum portions were humongous for the set meal of one portion or pot of tea with two items, as they targeted the blue collar crowd who needed their calories before going to work.

[scoopG]

Fascinating! To get back to one of your original questions - I guess I would look to Hongkong for the future/future trends.

[buttertart]

A certain Chinese historian of my acquaintance told me that tea culture is understood to have originated with the Buddhists - to keep them awake during meditation. Apparently tea was served to the public in temples for a tithe. Seeing the gatherings at the temples, secular individuals got the idea to open similar establishments and serve tea and snacks, to the accompaniment of storytellers whose topics were a little more appealing than a steady diet of the sutras (folk tales, jokes, continuing stories with cliffhanger endings to entice people to come back, so forth). Tea house culture of this sort was well-established by the Song dynasty (960-1279).

[chowser]

FWIW, the places we went, in the 70's, had carts (NYC, Boston). I have no idea what they were made of or what they looked like. I was really young, my parents got the food and I just ate. There were no tally sheets but they counted the dishes at your table at the end of the meal. I think they caught on that customers could hide their dishes and pay less so they went to the tally system. Personally I don't like the checksheets because I'm never as hungry as I think I am and even after I'm full, dishes keep coming and coming. I loved the old dim sum dishes but I also like some of the new fusion dishes I've had so remaining "authentic" isn't that important to me.