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Happy Posters vs. 'Debbie Downer' Posters..which are you?

I'd like to think that I'm overall a 'happy' poster with some 'downer' moments when negative things are said about my beloved restaurant or things I recommend and then I become snarky and then regret my comments if I don't edit in time..how about you?

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  1. Yep, me too. I try to be smart about what I say but sometimes I go all Angry Toad. To my regret, mostly.

    1 Reply
    1. re: EWSflash

      'but sometimes I go all Angry Toad.'

    2. i try to keep it positive, but i can certainly get pissy if someone insults or bashes me or my *opinion* (or that of a respected fellow Hound). there are some Debbie Downers around here who just really know how to bring out my inner snark on occasion! i also sometimes post in a hurry just to give someone quick info - like a basic search result with no additional comment - and i've been called out as being bitchy or brusque for it, but that's never my intention...if i'm giving you attitude, i'll be sure you know it :)

      19 Replies
      1. re: goodhealthgourmet

        That'd be funny if it wasn't so sad- like you're going to help out by giving somebody some info, but at the same time you're being brusque about it!

        1. re: EWSflash

          it's happened more than you might think. i once posted a reply to a first-time poster, offering search results and a suggestion about searching the board for popular topics before starting a thread because the answers might already be there...and i got a personal e-mail from someone telling me she didn't like my "tone." she thought i was giving attitude, and that my approach was a turnoff to new CHers and would discourage them from future posts...and then took it upon herself to "enlighten" me with several [erroneous] assumptions/presumptions she had made about me and my life. it was totally bizarre.

          1. re: goodhealthgourmet

            I think it is perfectly fine to just post a link when the OP has been on CH for a while and should have searched the site first. The "look it up, you lazy dope" is possibly inferred and if so, fine. Similar message to the LMGTFY site, You have been very courteous in showing new posters the ropes they haven't bothered to look into on their own. I agree with you that having newest first as the default search option is counterproductive and annoying.

            1. re: greygarious

              When it's new or even newer posters ask somewhat obvious questions it doesn't bother me much, if at all. It's the long time hounds who do this that make the hair on the back of my neck stand up and I find a low, guttural growl forming in the back of my throat... ;-D>

              1. re: Servorg

                Just something to consider that will maybe unruffle your feathers. Search really isn't that good on this site. Depsite suggestions to use Google, that isn't much better. So,yeah, as a long time poster somethines I will ask the obvious without searching due to frustration or laziness. Usually I'll indicate that at the top of the query.

                I've also said this a million times.If you don't frequent a board, search isn't as easy as one might think. What might be obvious to the regulars on a board, isn't even to a long-time Chowhound who doesn't follow that board.

                So on my home board, I'll give some slack, to the trillionth "Where to eat in Wine Country or SF post"

                At best, with the current search situation, I'll scroll through a few pages to see if something was posted in the last week. Then I make the decision to either post and risk the scorn of "we just talked about this, here's the link" ... or more likely, just not bother posting at all.

                1. re: rworange

                  I mostly consider myself a "positive" poster (I find it hard to slag off a place that is obviously trying hard but just not making the grade, for example) but there is one scenario where I turn into a downer: when someone posts their proposed itinerary and it is full of places that don't seem at all Chowish. This site is supposed to be about where to find the good stuff, after all. But I try not to be too judgemental as there are probably reasons for the choices. Doesn't stop me trying to talk them out of mediocre places, though :-).

                  1. re: grayelf

                    Guide books like Zagat. That's why you get all those lists that are mediocre joints. I'm in Guatemala now with little to go on but tourist sites and my hit ratio of good restaurants is 1 in 10.

                    The place that pissed me off the most tho was this little joint that got raves all over the web. A local tv station did a video. Presidents (of Guatemala) and celebrities made it a point to go there. It has been in business over 60 years.

                    It sucked.

                    That wasn't just my tastes. A Guatemalan friend tried to talk me out of it, but I was SOOOO sure it would be great based on the hype.

                  2. re: rworange

                    Yeah, that's why I don't find it rude to just post links to other posts that are relevant or specific searches that will help them -- the search sucks, and often regular posters will know that there has been a post right on that topic before. Then I'll usually just post a few links, and I don't see that as rude, just as helpful.

                    1. re: rworange

                      Agreed. The other thing is that restaurants close so often, or change hands, or change chefs, so that what we said a year ago or even a few months or weeks ago may be irrelevant today. The only thing that bothers me is if someone asks a question that is answered right there on the current page.

                      I'd say I'm a happy poster overall, but there are a few persistent attitudes that get me going sometimes. I remember recently the phrase 'feminist man-bashing' lighting a fire under me ...

                2. re: goodhealthgourmet

                  Oh for heaven's sake, GHG- that was uncalled for. Sometimes people go into a place with their dukes up, and this being online you can't see any sneers or dukes up. In the early days, I shudder to think of the things I said in online forums. Learned the hard way, but now I'm a LITTLE bit more sensitive to those things, at least I hope so, and sometimes I try to moderate people with an obvious case of the ass on either side when I see it. And sometimes not.

              2. re: goodhealthgourmet

                I agree there's no problem posting links to similar posts (in fact I think it's very helpful), it's when others "pile on" to agree that the current topic is "trite" or something to that effect. I mean, why bother? If you don't like the topic, why waste everyone's time stating it? It adds nothing to anyone's experience.

                1. re: mjhals

                  When it's a newish poster - or even someone new to a particular board - I like to write something like "Here are some posts to get you started," and then link to a search or some particular threads.

                  1. re: mjhals

                    I saw that comment as well. My feeling is not only does the search net a fair amount of frustration (but using google and adding 'chowhound' to the end of the query is amazingly helpful), but resurrecting old threads has its drawbacks.

                    If there are too many posts, the thread becomes unwieldy, and it may not even draw on recent experiences of longtime posters, much less new ones. And if there are newer voices one trusts on Chow, those voices may be totally absent from older threads.

                    If a topic resurfaces, why bother to add a disparagement when a new perspective might surface? (Not that I think posters like GHG are doing so; it is helpful to have the search-engine-savvy do the heavy-lifting).

                    1. re: onceadaylily

                      i know this is an older thread...

                      but google will separate searches by website for u now..then u can pull up all the results from the one website also....
                      in case anyone hadnt noticed that...

                      1. re: srsone


                        And, yes, I have noticed that. It's very helpful to click the 'more discussion/search results from' link that narrows the focus to a particular website.

                    2. re: mjhals

                      I agree! Isn't one person pointing them to the previous threads enough? That's considered useful, but the piling on adds absolutely nothing.

                    3. re: goodhealthgourmet

                      Of the many posts of yours that I've read, I've never found you to be anything other than pleasant & most helpful. I love your posts!

                      People forget that so much can be lost in translation of the posts. Interpret on the side of nice, folks.

                      However, I fully admit to being snarky on occasion. Not too often, but on occasion. I'm doing much better these days though... I don't need the drama. ;-)

                      1. re: lynnlato

                        aww, thanks sweetie. you know, i understand why some people might not think a short, to-the-point response is warm, fuzzy & welcoming, but it sucked to have someone accuse me of being mean when i was trying to help. and i fully admit that i can be a bit cranky or defensive on occasion, but it's usually in response to someone attacking me.

                        BTW, welcome back to the boards - i realized a couple of months ago that you'd been awfully quiet ;)

                        1. re: goodhealthgourmet

                          Thanks chica. Quite honestly, nothing was inspiring me to post. I was still reading and poking around, but had nothing to say. Which would generate a laugh from those who know me personally! LOL :-)

                    4. Ah, you and I both became well-acquainted with that snarky, should-I-have-hit-send feeling today, BC. I'd like to think I'm a fairly happy poster that aims for as much neutrality as possible. I'm not that much different in person than I am online... I don't see the point in using the anonymity of the interweb to be an arrogant ass. I do like that Chow moderates heavily. I've seen a lot of forums go waaaaay out of control due to a few mean people.

                      1. I'm nice. Unless I'm tired. Then I'm not allowed to type.

                        3 Replies
                        1. re: runwestierun

                          I'm nice too. Unless I'm drunk. Then I'm not allowed to type.

                            1. re: lynnlato

                              +2- but sometimes I chew through the ropes and type anyway.

                        2. I think (hell, I KNOW!) that NAF is a black hole that sucks alot of us into its maw. Especially when people use it in place of their therapist. Sometimes I want to scream "Don't you have any friends to talk this over with?" My opinion is that some people expect far more from CH than a food site was ever intended to fulfill. My New Year's resolution was to not post on it. I failed. And, to answer your question,yes, I can become DD or some derivative thereof. Mea maxima culpa.

                          2 Replies
                          1. re: c oliver

                            Sorry to take up space with +1 but yes, +1.

                            1. re: c oliver

                              For me, it depends on the day, but the therapeutic posts that are thinly veiled as food-related do hit on that for me.

                                  1. re: invinotheresverde

                                    but snark that neatly and painless excises the jugular is an art form.

                                    1. re: sunshine842

                                      ...and deleted just as quickly. I think fondly of Sam I Am at 4am....

                                  2. So far I have avoided snapping back at comments that bother me. I think it's silly to get too worked up.
                                    Having said that, like GHG said above- I admit sometimes it is DIFFICULT for me not to get worked up when a poster is being a real jerk for no good reason or when the personal attacks get going on certain chefs.

                                    1. The framing of the question - as happy vs. downer, and then relating downer to snarky, seems ultimately wrong, to me.

                                      We're here to share and learn, not to be happy or sad. The key is the dialectic - the ability to bounce an idea back and forth, to say something and then to try and defend it when challenged. That's how we learn. The best threads are the ones that are challenging - and unfortunately, we (I) try to make those that are not necessarily challenging, into something more so (like the "I like blue box macn'cheese" threads - which are innocuous and meaningless - nothing to really think about, just plain old happy, happy, joy, joy, which I turn into an accusation of Chowhound heresy...), just to satisfy my lust for learning, even if in an argumentative and challenging way.

                                      A Downer is a thread that poses nothing to think about, nothing to learn from, nothing to start a discussion.

                                      9 Replies
                                      1. re: applehome

                                        Obviously apple, you have not been on the receiving end of certain posters that go nuclear and become enraged and out of control.
                                        Thankfully, the Mod's are good at removing said posters.
                                        I think even some of the nicest posters here on CH have their snarky moments and while we can learn from spirited discussion, mean posters, have another agenda.
                                        I just had a incident this past weekend where a first time poster and her partner in crime came on and labasted me and others to the point where the thread was locked down... it crosses the line when a poster will call you a 'sacred cow' and that your 'grammar sucks'.
                                        I would qualify those 2 posters as 'Downer Posters' that add nothing but hate to the mix.

                                        1. re: Beach Chick

                                          Ooh, applehome can dish it out as well as receive it :) But there is a line, sometimes hard to see and sometimes not, and namecalling is sure not okay. After getting reprimanded myself, mostly for reacting rather than initiating I hope, I've tried harder and also use that report button instead of reply. It's not as therapeutic but it gets the job done. In your position, I think I'd have harsher words than "DD" for those posters. Keep up the good work.

                                          1. re: Beach Chick

                                            I do like the mantra, criticize the idea, not the poster. But I understand that even that can be taken personally. I really do think that over the years, the mods have done a good job in this area - it's where they shine. We just have to report it to them - they can't see everything. I've even gone so far as to report myself when I know how over the top I was. Ultimately, as a person that did abuse the airwaves, I police myself better these days - I try to remember that by my own rules, a productive post is informative - it adds something to the argument (where there is one). Screaming invectives adds nothing but bad feelings - so I understand that this is indeed a downer. It's a lousy way to argue.

                                            1. re: applehome

                                              Heh, I reported myself once for responding to a troll -- just couldn't help it, left it up for a bit in hopes s/he saw it then ratted myself out :-).

                                              1. re: grayelf

                                                Hey, we're Chowhounds not saints. Right?

                                                1. re: Beach Chick

                                                  I once commented on a post about a cooking show. The hosts of the show are a black couple and I expressed that I didn't like the show and didn't like their food. I, at one point, was accused of being racist by some random poster . Mind you, that is the highest insult for me, personally (the mods kindly removed his post, but he laughed and teased about it being removed). I had to withdrawal from the site for several months to cool down. It truly haunted me. I found that poster's blog and emailed him and expressed to him how hurt, attacked and wrongfully accused I felt. He apologized but obviously the wound remains.

                                              2. The problem I have with people just posting links to other questions is a relevant one. Many times the links are to posts a year or older. A lot can happen in a years time, uphill, downhill, closed, new chef, new menu, etc.... So these links just are not that helpful. If you are willing to view and post on a topic, then you clearly have time to answer the question. If not just ignore it. I think it stifles future conversations from new hounds or hounds with new information. I don't really know why people get upset when a new or old poster posts a common question.

                                                6 Replies
                                                1. re: MVNYC

                                                  You mean like "what to order at Babbo" or "where's the best dim sum?" I think it shows respect on the part of the person wanting to know this to do at least some research. And, yes, really old info about a resto may (or may not) be no longer accurate but on Home Cooking and the like, it's probably still valid. I'm no longer surprised that the question I was about to ask had been answered ad nauseum.

                                                  1. re: MVNYC

                                                    Often I will link to a post that has gotten no replies and is dropping down the board as new posts pour in at the top. For some reason that simple act seems to bring other posts, either because the post was brought back up to visibility so that others noticed it, or perhaps it stoked the competitive instincts of other hounds (g). Whatever the reason it seems to start that particular orphan post garnering some step parent posts. So, while my link may indeed be outdated, it seems to do the trick in generating more topical replies. YMMV

                                                    1. re: Servorg

                                                      Hey, all this chatter about the new format taking over Site made me want (even more than usual) to link this reply I had to a post I put up on the LA board this morning.

                                                      Getting this reply just made me feel good that I took the time to share this information about Nate 'n Al's 65th Anniversary specials that are being served today - (g): http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/7280...

                                                      1. re: Servorg

                                                        I feel your pain and that is why I started this thread.
                                                        You feel so good that your spreading good cheer and then someone comes along and just zaps it!
                                                        I call them 'debbie downers' like the SNL skit.


                                                    2. re: MVNYC

                                                      I never post a link without checking first to make sure that it has some relatively recent entries. I think a board that's cluttered with multiple posts about the exact same thing - where to eat in the theater district? - is less useful than one in which information is grouped. It's an echo chamber, and a pain to slog through. No one wants to read the same recommendations over and over (I may actually be wrong about this, since people on our home board don't seem to mind *posting* the same recommendations over and over.)

                                                      1. re: small h

                                                        That's a good point. I actually never thought of it from a newcomers point of view. I mean the search itself is a bit frustrating on Chow, but, I suppose, even more so if there are nine pages to wade through before one can even determine if some specific *aspect* to the question has been previously answered.

                                                    3. Wow you guys.

                                                      Looks like I am the most cordial here...

                                                        1. LOL..
                                                          The Debbie Downer posters are alive and well on this forum...
                                                          : (

                                                          3 Replies
                                                          1. re: Beach Chick

                                                            I actually think it's gotten better lately, beach chick. I'm not seeing near as many comments on the topical boards that make my jaw drop.

                                                            1. re: Beach Chick

                                                              I'm seeing less snark lately, but I have a feeling that's due to some active moderation, and less frequent posts from once-spirited, long-time posters who have grown tired of the same-old and/or noise on the Board.

                                                              I've been trying to keep my own snark in check.

                                                              1. re: Beach Chick

                                                                BC, it's such a wide ocean btwn happy poster and debbie downer. Not all online communication is accepted well without vocal tone attached. I've participated in dozens of posts that missed the tone entirely.

                                                                Quite often...along comes an OP truly seeking members to just sign in with agreement and one disagreeing comment throws the topic into another realm sometimes.

                                                                Much like face to face conversation, if we're going to start a passionate topic we should understand it may receive all sorts of unexpected replies...we all bang a drum differently.... tg.

                                                                I don't find snark fun to give or get, but it's bound to happen. CH's aren't wallflowers. On a moderated site the "level" is well taken care of.

                                                              2. I REALLY try to keep my posts on a positive slant. I get upset when it's clear that the OP has an agenda and a "right answer" in mind, as opposed to an intelligent discourse. I also get irritated when I see things that strike me as "ratpacking" on somebody. Nobody comes here to be insulted, invalidated or disempowered - or at least, I don't. I can't say my posts have never been snarky; that would be a lie. But I will say that those posts have been, for the very most part, in response to people being disrespectful of another's opinions or questions. This isn't the place for it, and though I realize food is emotionally loaded for a lot of people, it's just not worth fighting over.

                                                                1. I try, but sometimes it depends on the day, along with a few hot button topics.

                                                                  1. i'm on here a LOT, as you're probably all too well aware, and probably too much, but believe it or not, half the time (or maybe a third), i'll start to write something and then think, someone's just going to argue with this, not worth it. I think the Home Cooking board is the "nicest". Sometimes it can get too chatty, at which point Mods step in, but at least there isn't a lot of fighting.

                                                                    (I didn't read this whole thread but i did see that Grayelf once reported herself for snark, and had her post removed! love that!)

                                                                    1 Reply
                                                                    1. re: mariacarmen

                                                                      but i did see that Grayelf once reported herself for snark, and had her post removed!
                                                                      [raises hand]. been there, done that. i try not to be too reactionary because conflict isn't my thing and i'd rather not create unnecessary work for the mods. but every so often that little imp who's perched on my shoulder jumps onto the keyboard...

                                                                    2. I try to keep it positive Beach Chick, but my first downer post and the responses I got were what got me hooked on chowhound. I don't complain often but I had a ridiculously bad experience at a local restaurant, a real train wreck and I decided to write about it.
                                                                      I expected to get severely scolded or ignored but what I got was a flood of sympathy and support. I was used to gaming boards and dog care boards so I was shocked. I'm still in awe just thinking about it.
                                                                      Just recently I had another bizarre adventure in dining and again everyone was helpful. Well one person told me I ought to move out of the area, they told me twice in fact, but other than that one rabid hound I got a lot of wisdom and caring. To me the best test is when the chips are down, I hope all my posts are positive, but I know my fellow hounds have my back if things go horribly wrong.

                                                                      5 Replies
                                                                      1. re: givemecarbs

                                                                        That's the thing about a community as large as CH--you take the bad with the good. I'd be surprised if there's anyone on these boards who hasn't had a negative experience, or two or a dozen... but there is so much more good to be found. I've also found that it's very easy to misread tone, or to be misread. You (the general you, not specifically you) need to take everything with a grain of salt, assume the best, and develop a thick skin. LOL, if you started a thread with your online name, you'd get quite a big discussion which would probably sum this up.

                                                                        1. re: chowser

                                                                          I might just do that chowser! He he! I would make it a doozy. At this point I might as well wait til that new movie comes out this month, Fork Over Knife. But I am bummed that Ruth's vampire thread got locked. I'm not saying the team was wrong to lock it, but it was an interesting thread and for awhile I thought we were getting somewhere. I had another specific suggestion to add too. Darn. Could someone restart that thread in a week or two when things maybe simmer down? Maybe I will even bring up that topic that is so very close to my heart and try a thread on it. I must summon my courage though. It is about the book Gifts Differing by Isabella Myers-Briggs. Ulp.

                                                                      2. The vast majority of my posts are snark-free. But...

                                                                        I actually sort of like debates, even arguments. Especially when someone is just begging for an argument - if the subject is interesting, I'll give it to em. Happily.

                                                                        Like Dexter, I have a few rules - don't engage in arguments with un-argumentative peaceful types, don't be part of a crowd all shouting down one poster, don't take it or make it personal. I like to think I'm more or less successful, though I've had a few slip ups.

                                                                        I get the very distinct impression that there are a bunch of other regular posters like me (I don't want to name names, but i certainly could come up with a few off the top of my head). I also get the impression that there are threads started precisely with the intent of stirring up a nice, invigorating brawl. I sort of wish there was a place for these threads - maybe a kind of purgatory for threads that have gotten too snarky for regular CH but where everyone is still playing along and holding their own in the argument, so the thread could continue without being shut down. In another thread, HankHanover suggested the creation of a "Hank's WTF" forum with a similar purpose - I loved that idea. It's probably too much to ask. But it would be cool.

                                                                        7 Replies
                                                                        1. re: cowboyardee

                                                                          Ahh was wondering how this thread made onto my list. :)

                                                                          1. re: cowboyardee

                                                                            I love that idea. So many threads have been shut down just when it was getting good—by my definition, which understandably might be bad by the mods' definition.

                                                                            1. re: cowboyardee

                                                                              Excellent cowboyardee! In the gaming forums I used to haunt there was one that had a basically pg rated area, an adult area and then there was the hell area. And that's just what they called it. It worked well and the very best part for me right now is I get to type I spent most of my time in hell. :)

                                                                              1. re: cowboyardee

                                                                                cowboyardee, I've also appreciated your personal ability to make your point or debate without making it personal. Nothing wrong whatsoever with a debate, either, I see debates as beneficial and educational, sharing info and clearing the air, all that.

                                                                                I believe your posting style is generally very successful in maintaining your posting rules. That you actually have formulated some personal posting rules and use them is a good call, I will follow your lead.

                                                                                In my own defense, I'm just one of those posters who wants everyone to be well fed and content, culinarily speaking, all the time. If I can do anything to help that along, I will offer the best of what I've got. As far as snarky remarks and other types of less than considerate personal comments that message boards can be rife with, I avoid, although not always successfully, and much prefer to give posters the same consideration I want.

                                                                                Sort of reminds me of the Rolling Stones, although I'm not sure why, "You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might find you get what you need".

                                                                                1. re: bushwickgirl

                                                                                  I always look forward to your posts, and am always grateful when you share your knowledge. The best and more knowledgeable posters of the forum are non-snarky, I'm glad you live among these very few.

                                                                                  1. re: bushwickgirl

                                                                                    Thanks bushwickgirl.

                                                                                    You, in turn, are such a knowledgeable and helpful source of information that I'd follow your posts even if you were snarky and mean-spirited.

                                                                                2. I try to be informative and helpful but have been known to be plenty snarky. I guess it would be best to let OTHERS answer this on your behalf, no? I really limit the boards I participate in so only those who post on those boards probably know me.

                                                                                  1. LOL..caught another one!
                                                                                    ;- )

                                                                                    1. What to do when your local happy board has a buzz kill poster?

                                                                                      8 Replies
                                                                                      1. re: Beach Chick

                                                                                        Sometimes a buzz kill post will make me post a Pollyanna reply, that's loaded with winking emoticons when I'm writing with my tongue in cheek. I've been trying to cutting back on my use of plain old sarcasm lately.

                                                                                        1. re: prima

                                                                                          It's like the joy out of the happy post is sucked right out when this poster post and I can do all the winking emoticons but what is needed is the big black cloud, grim reaper or a big monkey wrench emoticons.

                                                                                          Like in life, there are people who are just not happy people and you can see it in black and white in written form...we all have our ups and downs in life.

                                                                                          Maybe someone needs to make some emoticons like the ones I stated above..

                                                                                          1. re: Beach Chick

                                                                                            One could attach photos of grim reapers and storm clouds when responding to sourpuss posters.

                                                                                            1. re: prima

                                                                                              That sort of response is going to run afoul of the "rate the chow...not the chowhound" site rule in a NY minute. Best to learn to ignore the "rain on your parade" poster and go about your posting with a cheery smile and a firm belief in that fine, French phrase; "C'est la Vie"

                                                                                              1. re: Servorg

                                                                                                The chow always rates first but when our local board is small and the poster just sucks the happy out of a post almost every time because the mood changed from wanting to post, to just exiting and not returning.

                                                                                                This has been going on for years with the poster with the same debbie downer demeanor....just gets so old, fake smiling through it all..

                                                                                                1. re: Beach Chick

                                                                                                  It's important to keep in mind that text can read a lot colder than it's intended. We often ask people to read things charitably and assume good faith on the part of other posters, and that can help in situations like these where someone isn't being outright insulting but also isn't as exuberant as other posters.

                                                                                                  Someone who doesn't join in on the many little in jokes and nicknames that are common among the regulars on your local board may not feel like they're part of that group. We hope they'll also assume good faith, of course, and not feel like they're deliberately being excluded.

                                                                                                  1. re: The Chowhound Team

                                                                                                    something to that effect ought to be posted and require user acknowledgement before someone is allowed to EVER post on anything on the web.

                                                                                      2. As a reasonalbly cheery person (most of the time) named Debby, I wish we could find another phrase to replace "Debbie Downer"... how about "Cheerless Chowhound" or "Cranky Chowhound"?

                                                                                        2 Replies
                                                                                          1. re: Beach Chick

                                                                                            I friggin' love that skit. LMAO

                                                                                            @debbypo, you're not alone I am sure. I imagine not-so-chatty Cathy's share your frustration. ;-)

                                                                                        1. I don't mind pro and anti posts. That's just life, right?

                                                                                          But I detest thread hacking.