Looking to get a Stainless steel Gyuto

[Chemicalkinetics]

Hi all,

As the title suggested, I am looking to buy a stainless steel gyuto. I did some look-around and I have a few choices.

Hattori HD 210mm Gyuto
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/HDSeries.html

Hiromoto Gingami-3 210mm Gyuto:
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/Page4.html

Ittosai Kotetsu 210mm Gyuto:
http://korin.com/HOT-GY?sc=7&cate...

What do you think?

[Chemicalkinetics]

Just got my 210 mm Tojiro DP Gyuto (plastic handle, not Wa-wood handle) 30 minutes ago. I am impressed. The blade tapered from the spine down to the edge pretty fast, so much of the blade is thinner than a full forge German Chef's knife. It is sharp out of the box. I can shave my arm hair. Very solid fit and finish on the handle. No imperfection on the bevel. The bolster is heavy, so the center-of-gravity is shifted to the bolster. Cut up an onion. Very nice response.

Due to my extensive experience with Chinese Chef's knife, I were cutting the onion using the push-cutting technique (subconsciously). Though I will try the rock cut later. I can already see gyuto has some pros and cons to the Chinese Chef's knife. After using this knife, I can understand why a gyuto like Tojiro can go toe-to-toe with more expensive Henckels and Wusthof forged knives. This Tojiro gyuto seems very suitable for home cooks. Thank guys.

[scubadoo97]

I have a Western Tojiro DP 240 gyuto and I'm pretty sure the handle is a wood composite and not plastic. No question the Tojiro is still a great bang for the buck on a stainless gyuto.

[Chemicalkinetics]

You are right. It is wood composite. Even better then. Sharpen it slightly. So far so good.

[scubadoo97]

They are excellent knives. Enjoy it

[applehome]

Go for a hand-made by a 17th Generation Yoshimoto Bladesmith:
http://www.cartercutlery.com/japanese...

[Chemicalkinetics]

Ha ha ha. Thanks. I think it is too expensive for me. Moreover, I am really looking for a testing knife for me to get familiar with a gyuto. If I am really trying to get best knife, then surely I would get a Cutco

:P

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/6638...

[applehome]

He makes other series knives, like these Fukugozai, which are stainless clad, carbon core. About $200 for a 6sun (7") Funayuki, but he says he makes these in western styles, so you could ask him how much and how long it takes to make a gyuto. Then you'd have one hand-made for you!
http://www.cartercutlery.com/japanese...

Of course, it wouldn't be made from 440A, "surgical steel"... Which I never got... I guess you're supposed to use it once and throw it away, like they do with scalpels.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Applehome,

Thanks for the information. I probably won't get a Carter knife for this testing knife, but I will keep this information in mind when I get a more permanent knife.

While at it, have you seen this video with Doi Kenjiro at work?

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/4942739/...

I am sure he does not really work 9 to 5, but it is just so inspiring to see an ~80 old man hammering steel. I wish I will be as healthy as he is at 80's.

Yeah, the Cutco 440A steel. I heard good knife smiths can do some great works with 440A, but all in all, 440A is not a very exciting steel to me. In fact, many believe 440A in general is no better than 420HC, if not worse. (see attached photo)

[Eiron]

What about the Tsuchime-style knife you bought for your brother? (brother-in-law?) That seemed like a good model to do a test run on.

I was all set to buy a Shiki Damascus Series gyuto for my next knife, but it was so long before they were ready to buy that I'd since decided to make my own.
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/SHIKIDamascusSeries.html

I love the weight, feel & balance of my Kanetsune KC-102. So if I were looking to buy an affordable stainless knife today, I'd get one of the Kanetsugu Pro-M Series knives.
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/ProMSeries.html#WIDTH: 401px; HEIGHT: 233px

Of course, I've still got my unused Kanetsune KC-202, if you're interested... ;-
)http://japan-blades.com/chef-knives/b...

[Chemicalkinetics]

Eiron,

I bought my brother that knife to encourage him to cook. Life does not work out that way. He still does not like to cook. :)

If I decide to get a Kanetsune, I will surely let you know.

How is your progress in term of setting up your own knife factory? That sounds like tough work.

[Eiron]

Perhaps your brother would let you borrow his knife for an extended trial period? I mean, since he's not getting any good use out of it.

Hey, my Kanetsune would add a Damascus-style knife to your collection at a plain steel price!

The progress is slow. I've added some machining equipment to my "shop" (the garage for now) & have some designs for some custom fabrication equipment I want to make myself. I've also talked with a couple of custom-products makers. But, setting aside the necessary funds doesn't seem any easier now (when I have a job) than it was when I was out of work.

[cowboyardee]

Chem, what are your preferences in a new knife? I know you prefer stainless. But are you looking for something thin/high performance or a thick 'beater' knife or something in between? The three/two you mentioned are pretty thin/high performance, but there are others that are even more so.

Are you big on looks and/or fit and finish, or do you lean towards more performance for your money and to hell with looks or comfort? Do you prefer damascus or not care much?

Would you prefer easy sharpening at the expense of edge durability or vice versa, or some middle ground?

How flexible is your price range?

[Chemicalkinetics]

Cowboy,

Great questions. I am not entirely sure. I prefer a thinner to medium blade Gyuto. I figure if I have any real tough works to deal with, I will use a meat cleaver.

I care about fit and finish on a basic level, but not on an high end level. For example, I don't worry too much if the blade is not polished or shiny, but I do want the handle parallel with the handle. Basic comfort is needed, but I have yet to come across a knife which I reject because it is unbearably uncomfortable, so I don't think I am very demanding. Damascus is a plus for me but not necessary. I don't have a single knife which has real Damascus pattern.

As for the sharpening vs edge durability, I think I want something in the middle.

This will be my first Gyuto, so it will be a testing knife for me to see if I actually like this style of knife. I am looking between $100-170.

[cowboyardee]

I forgot to ask you about profile - more or less belly? No big deal, given the knives you've been considering so far.

Given your responses, I have a few other options to consider - not necessarily better than your listed options, but worth looking at.

For starters, consider a 240 mm as opposed to a 210. If you're already used to an 8-inch German knife, your kitchen isn't exceptionally cramped, and your budget allows, a 240 gyuto will feel like a very natural transition for you.

On the higher end of your price scale, the masamoto vg is considered a very consistent, high performing blade. Strangely, it's probably not a vg steel. Good all-around geometry and reliably decent f&f. It's 70/30 ground.
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/VGSeries.html

The blazen is, for reasons I don't fully understand, typically the most/only recommended powdered steel knife over at knife forums. It's pushing your spending limit, I know. Edge durability is supposed to be fantastic. Haven't tried it myself though. Even at only 61-63 HRC, it's probably a bear to sharpen. Not thick, but a bit beefier than most of the knives you've listed thus far.
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/ryusenk...

I'll also point out that the Tojiro DP fits your list of demands perfectly, aside from falling below your price range. Great performance/price ratio, no significant f&f issues anymore, surprisingly attractive. I really don't think that most of the other knives we've listed out-performs the Tojiro by any significant margin (though the Blazen will certainly hold its edge longer and put up with a super acute edge better). It's an especially good option if you see yourself upgrading (should you find you like using a gyuto) due to low cost and resale-ability. Isn't your usuba a tojiro DP? Do you not like it or do you just want to try something new?

I guess if you're looking for a gyuto that you think will be your main knife for years to come, I'd recommend either the Hattori HD/Ittosai/ryusen damascus (good performance, great looks, you'll feel good about it) or the Blazen (takes a great edge and holds onto it - a beast of a knife).

If you're thinking you might upgrade, reconsider the Tojiro first and foremost, and maybe 'x' out the Hiromoto G3. The upside of any of the knives you listed (save the Hiromoto G3) is that they'd be easy to resell over at knife forums.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Yeah, I were looking at the Masamoto VG too, until I found out the Western style knives are not VG-10. I also thought about powder steel knives, like Blazen, but I have heard funny things about powder steel. I will think about it some more.

My usuba is a shirogami awase (white carbon steel cladded with soft iron) by Tojiro. I have good experience with it -- relatively inexpensive and solidly made. I think I shy away from the Tojiro because I wanted to try something different, but now that I think about, Tojiro DP is nothing like Tojiro Shirogami Awase and I should consider it.

[The Loaf]

Why not the Hiromoto AS? That knife gets tons of consistent positive comments, and seems to be in your price range. It will probably be my own next knife. I'm finding the edge retention on my ux10 to be ho-hum and am looking for a replacement.

Let us know what you get and how you like it.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Hiromoto AS has a lot of buzzes, but I am looking for a stainless steel one if possible and AS is not. I am not completely set on a stainless steel, but I do prefer it.

[The Loaf]

FWIW, the Hiro AS is stainless clad carbon. It's not a pure AS steel, and thus doesn't rust as easily.

[cowboyardee]

Hey loaf, since you seem interested:

The Hiromoto AS has been my primary knife for a few years now. I love it. Love. I initially saw myself upgrading eventually (and I did briefly to a Tadatsuna YSS inox, which was fantastic but too fragile to be my only chefs knife, and i sold it when my car needed some expensive work done - I might buy it again someday), but the Hiromoto has been so nice that I fear any upgrade would be a letdown unless I spend more than I'm currently willing to fork out on a knife.

Takes a great edge, sharpens easily, holds its edge as well or better than any non-PM steel I've seen. Almost perfect geometry for an all-around gyuto (though i don't know how much that has changed since I bought it- it used to be 70/30 ground and is now 50/50). And I like its looks - that simultaneously ugly and pretty dynamic its got going on.

If you buy it, I seriously doubt you will be let down.

[The Loaf]

Thanks for the mini review; it confirms everything I've heard. I'll be placing an order once I sell the UX10.

[cowboyardee]

Hey Chem.
The real upsides of the Hattori HD are its looks and its geometry - it is a very thin knife, with a very nice grind and distal taper on it. High performance, very nice for home use, perhaps a bit delicate for use as a primary knife working on a line (which I know isn't an issue for you). Over at knife forums, there are those who swear that the Hattori/ryusen temper is superior to that of other VG-10 blades and that it holds it's edge better. I don't know, but I can tell you that I didn't notice any major difference in the few opportunities I've had to sharpen a HD. Nice knife though.

The hiromoto, I haven't played with. I know that by reputation, the geometry is supposed to be pretty much the same as the Hiromoto AS. Which is a very good thing, since I feel that geometry is just about perfect for an all around/primary gyuto - high performance, great tapering, still sturdy enough that you don't baby it. G3 ('gingami' or 'ginsanko' no 3) steel is often compared to vg-10. I'm actually not sure if I've ever sharpened any G3, since I'm not sure if the Tadatsuna YSS inox I used to have was in fact G3 - if so, I was very impressed with the ease of sharpening and edge-taking, and moderately impressed with its toughness and durability. But again, I'm actually not sure. The Hiromoto G3 doesn't get that much buzz, but I suspect that's just because the Hiromoto AS gets so much. I can also tell you that the F&F on the AS (and thus probably the G3) leaves something to be desired, whereas the F&F on the Hattori is usually better.

I've never handled the Ittosai. The buzz on that knife though is that it is the same knife as the Hattori HD. THE SAME. I found people suggesting that on both foodie forums and knifeforums. I can't tell exactly. They certainly look quite similar. The kanji on the two knives are highly similar but slightly different (you can blow up the picture on the korin site to see the kanji better). I know that Ryusen owns Hattori and Ittosai, so it's quite plausible. However, if they're the same, I don't know why the HRC is listed as 63 for the Ittosai. If you could confirm that they are in fact no different than the HDs (maybe ask Korin?), then the Ittosai would be, at the prices listed, a bargain.

Edit: I forgot to mention that the Hiromoto's edge is ground at 70/30, while the hattori and Ittosai are 50/50. I personally prefer the offset edge, for reasons you've heard me state before. Of course for someone who's fairly experienced on the stones as you are, changing the geometry to fit your needs is entirely possible.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Hi Cowboyardee,

Wow, very informative, thanks a lot. I didn't know 80% of the things you mentioned. Yes, I have also heard rumors that Hattori HD knives have a better VG-10 quality than, say Shun, but who knows. I have heard G3 is a pretty good steel comparable to VG-10, but again, I don’t know. It is interesting that people claim Ittosai Kotetsu is the same knife as Hattori HD because the HRC is so different. The Kaji are also different. Frankly, the Kaji phrases are all over the place.

On ChefKnivesToGo, the kanji on the Hattori knives is 梵天雲竜 which loosely means “Heavenly cloud dragon”.
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/hachkn101.html
Considered that the manufacturer Ryuse (竜泉) means Dragon Fountain or Dragon Waterspring, it makes perfect sense. Here you can read 竜泉刃物　梵天雲龍 (Ryusen Cutlery, Heavenly Cloud Dragon):
http://www.netsea.jp/shop/5275/h-001

On JapaneseChefsKnives, the engraved kaji of the Hattori knives reads 関住唯知郎作
http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/HDSeries.html
This is translated as “Seki-Live-Ichiro-Made” or better “Made by Ichiro who lives in Seki”. Ichiro is Hattori’s first name. Of course, Hattori is 服部, which is the very same last name of the most famous ninja 服部 半蔵 -- rather a samurai general who commanded ninjas. The kaji of Hattori actually does not appear on the knives.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattori_Hanz%C5%8D

On Korin, the Ittosai Kotetsu knives have the kaji 一刀斎虎徹作. This phrase is translated as “One-Knife-Enlightened-Kotetsu-Made” or better “Made by the Enlightenment/Memory of Kotetsu” where Kotetsu is the name of a legendary sword maker.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagasone...

The take-home come message is that these knives are not made by a legendary sword maker, a mystery ninja, nor a dragon. Sigh. Just kidding.
:D

I am going to write Korin an email and update the response here.

Hey, I have two questions for you (or anyone).
First, Do you know why Hattori FH series is more expensive than Hattori HD? The only guess I have is that the FH may be made of entire VG-10, where the HD is cladded wtih VG-10. If this is not true, then I don't know why.

Second, does Ryusen own all Hattori lines or just the HD line? I believe Hattori Ichiro still hand make KD (most expensive) line. Is his entire operation under the Ryusen now?

[cowboyardee]

The FH is in fact solid vg-10, not clad as the HD is. The idea was to sell a knife that was somewhere in between mass-produced and custom-made honyaki knives. A solid vg-10 blade is obviously more expensive to produce, driving up the price.

It seems as though Hattori makes the FH in-house (that's not to say by Mr. Hattori personally) whereas the production of the HD line is outsourced. I'm not really sure how that works though, and I'm not sure what exactly Ryusen owns. I can say that the F&F on the FH line is generally said to be superior and more consistent than that of the HD line. The FH may be produced in smaller quantities, driving up the value as well.

The KD, at least according to JapaneseChefsKnife.com and much online lure, is fully hand-made by Mr. Hattori himself. As such, and since Mr. Hattori's health is rumored to be in decline, the KD have been sold out with no word of if or when they will go back into production.

Interesting stuff you posted, bout the Kanjis.

Let me know how Korin replies.

[deeznuts]

Throwing another similar knife in the mix, what do you guys think about the Kanetsune which looks very similar to the Ittosai knives, save for the Kanji?

I got lucky and bought one for $60

Is someone just churning these out for the various manufacturers to slap their name and kanji on? I think it quite possible. Either that or they're just copying the hell out of this design.

[deeznuts]

Stupid me, i didn't include the link

http://japan-blades.com/chef-knives/w...

[Chemicalkinetics]

Wow, you got a great deal there -- paid $60 for that knife.

[deeznuts]

Yes it was. Not knowing what it was worth, or else I would have bought the whole stock. I got one, my buddy got one. It looks quite similar to the others though, no?

[cowboyardee]

I know I'm just responding to myself now, but I wanted to add that the Ryusen damascus available a few places (japan woodworker, epicureanedge) is also reputed to be the same knife as the Hattori HD and the Ittosai. Keep that in mind if you see a low price on the ryusen damascus (currently listed at higher prices). It is also described as 63 HRC.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Yes, as a matter of fact, I just learned two hours ago that there is something called Ryusen Damascus from Japan Woodworker, but I didn't know epicureanedge also carry those. Thanks.