Howdy, starting my first garden

[Bottomless_Pit]

Hey, I'm starting my own garden. I don't plan to use any pesticides or anything fancy. Just a small simple garden that will hopefully yield some food. Earlier today I started tilling the soil on my raised garden beds. My dad started a garden last year but a family of deer ate most of the food.

My dad bought the seeds from Walmart, and I feel my dad got ripped off. When my dad and I looked at the seeds we saw very little seeds in the package. The price was too high and most of the seeds didn't even sprout. In fact all the zucchini didn't sprout at all. :(

We bought some tomato plants and the deer just ate the tomatoes over and over. The deer did not stop at just eating the plants once over. I plan to eat some of the food I grow in my garden. I plan to grow a vegetable garden. I've already decided against raising animals this year.

I need advice on 1: The right type of seeds, I've already looked at the obsessives video on heirloom seeds. Just not sure where to get some seeds. My soil has a lot of clay.

http://www.chow.com/stories/12150

2: How to deal with deer. My current plan is to try to grow more crops, in the hopes that the deer will fill their bellies. Is there a plant deer particularly like. Maybe if I plant a lot of plants the deer like the deer will leave my garden alone.

[md_massimino]

I'm late on this post but because I have similar soil challenges I would strongly recommend finding some topsoil and filling your beds up to the rim with good soil. The Square Foot Gardening guy is a huge proponent of soil amendment, I took my queue from him. I built raised beds and just put screened topsoil amended with some peat moss. Everything's going gangbusters this year, just have to remember to fertilize with either leaf mulch or some sort of organic fertlizer.

[Bottomless_Pit]

Wow, your garden looks nice. I like how you kept your garden small, looks more natural and discrete. The wooden fence with the trees in the background fit. The soil on the surface looks fairly dry.

[chaz]

Apropos of deer: I just read somewhere today-I think in the NYT -that the organic fertilizer Milorganite keeps deer away. Many years ago it was called Milwaukee Milorganite bec. it was made from sewage in Milwaukee. Sounds like it might work.

[Bottomless_Pit]

I managed to chase off the deer for now. I'll keep Apropos in mind if the deer come back.

[Cherylptw]

Sherri's right, don't use grass in your garden. Grass contains weeds and seeds that you don't want to sprout up in your garden. If you want hay, go to a nursery, garden supply or a animal feed or supply store. I'd dump the grass right back in the neighbor's yard, but that's just me.

[Bottomless_Pit]

Alright, I grabbed some wet and dry leaves from my neighbor threw on my property. I focused on the lower, decomposing leaves. I put the leaves on top of the weeds to smother. My dad expressed his doubts, and told me not to take the neighbor's garbage. My dad says "who knows what type of chemicals they used."

Note the litterbug neighbors have a swimming pool and garden of their own.

[Bottomless_Pit]

I started double digging my garden, I've found the exercise useful for a number of reasons:

1. Educational
2. I get to know my soil/enviorment
3. All the roots in the soil, particularly the small tree/bush roots. A lot of the roots are still grasping the earth with a solid grip. I can hear the roots breaking as I dig. I already bent my pitch fork.

I found I can only work hard every other day. At this rate I'll only be able to plant in some of my garden beds. I have a choice:

1. Double dig all the garden beds and then plant, might take as long as the end of June.
2. Double dig the best garden beds and plant in them, then finish the other garden beds
3. same as 2 except plant in the finished garden beds.

Note: Most of my garden beds are small compared to most people's.

[Sherri]

You're certainly off to a great start! You do get to know your area, dirt and garden while you work in it. Double-digging will pay benefits long after your muscles heal.

I cannot advise you how to plant your beds but I know what I would do. I'd plant when I finished digging a bed, knowing that I have a headstart on getting rewards from my hard work. Yes, I'd probably choose the best locations to begin my project so the headstart is really worthwhile.

Congratulations on doing this job well. It is very satisfying to grow one's own food.

[Bottomless_Pit]

Thanks Sherri, I've started stomping down all the vegetation near my garden beds. I'm also picking all the leaves off the raspberries growing around my garden beds. I'm trying to make a 6 inch weed free area around my beds.

[Bottomless_Pit]

I got finished double digging one garden bed. I did about 60% of the bed in less than 2 hours. The digging seems trivial compared to the pitchfork work of breaking up the deep soil. The soil looks great! Really soft and loamy. My dad was impressed. I took a video of my garden.

I've been peeing around my garden beds and been walking the dogs around the beds too. Despite my efforts the deer get within 10 feet of my garden beds! The deer haven't eaten anything I know of yet, but still the fear is there. I've invested over 20 hours into my garden and I'm willing to fight for my produce.

I've hung lightweight metal pans on trees and bushes to attempt to scare the deer. The deer seem held off at bay, barely. The problem is a deer is huge! A deer could eat most of my garden in 5 mins. Also a deer is an animal of almost pure muscle. I don't want to kicked in the chest by a scared deer. To be quite frank I'm a little scared of deer.

[morwen]

I mentioned before about laying wire fencing on the ground around the perimeter of your garden because deer and other animals don't like and won't walk on it. I just came across this article that may be of some help: http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles...

We have s**t loads of deer around here. A friend told me the other day (she lives right at the edge of the woods) that she ties plastic grocery bags to the trees along the edge of her woods, allowing them to flutter and snap. She finds that effective. The bags have to be replaced every so often. I hang out useless CDs and DVDs. The shiny sides move and reflect the light, helping to chase off birds from the berries and deer. Some people use motion activated solar lights around their gardens for protection at night.

Don't be afraid of the deer, they're generally timid creatures, just respect them. A doe with young will be protective. You need to be a little wary of the bucks in rut. Rutting season makes them do stupid things. Rutting season coincides with hunting season to give you an idea of when. Pretty much as long as you don't corner a deer and give them an avenue of escape, just make lots of scary noise and they'll run off.

[Bottomless_Pit]

Thanks Morwen, I haven't read the article, but the motion idea sounds promising. I have too many disposable baking pans I've been using. Perhaps I'll put a few on my blueberry bush to scare away the birds. Still feels mean though. :(

[morwen]

Time to so get over "mean". Are you putting out a buffet for the local fauna to benefit from your hours of sweaty labor or do you want to enjoy the fruits of your sweaty labor?

[Bottomless_Pit]

I read the article and I implemented the idea of the fence on the ground. My dog will not walk on the fence. My dog stepped on the fence a little and once his paw hit metal, he backed away. Now my dog will go around the long way to avoid the fence. I think I'm putting out a buffet. :)

[Bottomless_Pit]

Ok here's what I got planted so far:

2 tomato plants (different types)
Squash Summer Early Yellow Crookneck Cucurbita pepo
Bush Bean Contender Phaseolus vulgaris
Squash Summer Black Beauty Zucchini Cucurbita pepo

Yet to plant:
Squash Winter Burgess Buttercup Cucurbita maxima
Squash Winter Table King Bush Acorn Cucurbita pepo

I'm a little confused why my yellow squash and my Table King Bush Acorn and my zucchini would have the same latin name.

[toodie jane]

Wikipedia discussions of the two different genus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucurbita_pepo
Mostly the so-called Summer Sqyuash, eaten when the skins and flesh are still soft and tender.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucurbit...
Mostly the so-called Winter Squash because they are harvested when the skins have toughened and the flesh has dehydrated somewhat. They can then be either consumed or stored over the winter months. The thickened skins prevent further dehydration and allow the stored squash to keep for several months when held in a cool dry storage area.

[toodie jane]

For the dry leaves, you can pile them in a long, low pile, and run a lawn mower over them to shred them before layering them on the unplanted parts of your veg garden in the fall. That's called "sheet composting". The leaves will settle with rain and snow, break down, and them can be tilled into the soil when the ground is workable in the spring befrore planting your garden. Or as Ruth Stout, 50's Queen of No-Work Gardening would have done, simply pull back the leaf much to warm the soil, and plant your seeds. When the plants are up and thriving, pull the mulch back over the roots to conserve water and stifle weed seeds from sprouting.

By the way, you can scour used book stores and come up with inexpensive copies of all lthe great out-of-print Rodale Publishing books on organic gardening, composting, seed starting, root cellaring, preserving, pruning, you-name-it. 'The Complete Book of Composting' and 'The Encyclopedia of Organic Gardening' are worth their weight in gold. Two books the organic gardener should not be without.

[Bottomless_Pit]

Hmmm, I had great enthusiasm at first, now I'm not so enthused. Mostly the hot weather, I don't really want to work hard in the hot weather. I'm also focusing on clearing a path so I can walk barefoot to my garden. Hard with all the vines though that cover twigs that randomly stick up.

I've been pulling up the vines, btw I think the "roots" in my garden beds are really thick vines. I"m just pulling all the vines up that are around my garden beds. I wonder if I uproot the vines around the garden beds if it will kill the vines within the beds.

The other reason I lost some enthusiasm is the sheer difficulty of digging the soil. I can barely break the soil with a spade because the soil is hard clay held together by powerful underground vines. In short, no work gardening sounds more appealing. :)

Here's a video of my garden : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJkjoI...

[morwen]

I'm with ya on the hot weather. Gardening is less enchanting when you're sweating your butt off and the bugs are biting. But it looks like you've made great progress in a difficult place to garden! Persevere!

Wear shoes in the garden. Even the most manicured ones hide dangers to your feet. Pierced feet, cut toes, ripped toenails, critter bites and tetanus shots are all high on the "it sucks" list.

Getting your beds' soil into shape is an ongoing process. Pulling up the vines around the beds is a good start but you're also going to have to get rid of the vines in the beds because they will root and grow even cut off from the main plant. I recommend when the beds are empty to rototill the bejesus outta them and then sift out the vine pieces. At that point you can till in more amendments. Motorized digging will get you way ahead with much less pain and labor when you're establishing new beds. Dig deep and let the machine do the work.

Water your garden! Break up the soil around the plants and give it a good deep watering. 1" of water a week is recommended when you're not getting any rain regularly. After you water them, put a layer of mulch over top of everything. It helps to keep the ground moist and discourage weeds. Your containers need a thorough watering daily, rain or not, because they dry out quickly. Especially clay containers. A layer of mulch on top of those will help too. Some plants may need twice a day watering. I have pumpkins, melons and cucumbers in containers and they're heavy drinkers.

The closest thing I've seen to "no work gardening" is lasagna gardening- making layers of compost soil and mulch on top of the ground instead of tilling into it. There's a great book called "Lasagna Gardening" that will get you started. You could even do it next season in your already existing beds by laying down landscape fabric and layering on top of that. That would pretty well take care of the vine problem.

All in all I think you're doing great! Keep it up!

Now.... I have 2 more herb beds to go weed and mulch before my gardening guilt is assuaged for the day...

[Bottomless_Pit]

Thanks Morwen, I can get truckfulls of free mulch in my township. Just I have to load and transport the mulch myself, the mulch is in a heap. From what I understand I would place mulch all around the plants but not smothering my plants. The mulch can go right up to the stems, and not hurt my veggies/herbs.

[morwen]

Right. Just be sure to break up and cultivate the soil around them first and give them a seriously deep drink of water. Then apply the mulch. After that give them a good soaking on a regular basis. Also it's best to water directly above the ground beneath the leaves. That helps to prevent a number of mildews that like to form on damp leaves. When/if you can make the investment, soaker hoses are your friends. Direct slow. watering, less evaporation, dry leaves, frees you up to do other things while your garden is being watered.

[Bottomless_Pit]

I put some wood chips around my yellow squash, you can see my squash in the video I posted earlier. I dumped the wood chips where no squash were growing then, I spread out the wood chips. I didn't mulch the entire bed, the bed will take several barrels of mulch.

Before I mulched I watered the squash a 2nd time for today, but I failed to break up or cultivate the soil. I'm in a sort of lazy mood. I'm also not too sure about breaking up the soil, I could damage the squash. I'm also using the wood chip mulch as a walkway up to my house, instead of the eroding bricks. Feels nice to walk on the wood chips.

[morwen]

Cultivating your garden won't injure your plants. Just don't dig in right up to the plants bases, and you don't have to go deep, just break up the surface. In the video I saw that the soil was solid, dry, and cracked into "plates". That's how I knew it was in need of a deep watering. Cultivating the soil helps to keep it loose and friable, reduces weeds, and allows water to reach your plants roots. When the soil looks like it does in your video, it's so dry that the water doesn't penetrate but actually runs off. Your veggies need the moisture to pull nutrients from the soil so you'll get more production from your plants. It doesn't take long to do. You can get a cultivator tool for about $15 or less that makes the job easy. It looks like a 3 tined rake. The tines look like a claw. I found mine at Dollar General.

Wood chips make great pathways. You can use the bricks as an edging to confine the chips to the paths and give a more defined look if you desire. Old bricks are also nice to raise your pots off the ground a little for better drainage and ventilation. Helps cut down on the bugs that like to congregate under damp, dark pot bottoms.

I saw your sweet potato in a little pot. You probably won't get a lot of potatoes out of it because they really need room to grow. An efficient way to grow potatoes, both white and sweet, is using tire towers. Collect discarded tires. Place one flat and fill with soil. Plant your potato starts in that. When the vines are tall enough, add a second tire and fill it with soil, leaving the tops of the vines exposed to the sun. Repeat throughout the season piling tires and soil as needed. When it's time to harvest, simply knock the tire towers over and harvest the potatoes within. Mix the used soil with compost and add it to your beds the following year. Even though we have room for potatoes now we still do this because they grow so well vertically and it leaves us more flat area for other crops.

Going vertical works well for a lot of other vining crops too. You can grow zucchini and other squash, cucumbers, melons, almost anything that vines by training and tying them up trellises. Heavier fruits like melons will need to be nestled in slings (I use old pantyhose for the slings) tied to the trellises. Not only are trellised crops easier to tend and less susceptible to rot but it frees up space for other crops to be grown beneath them. A cheap way to make trellises that will last forever and are easy to move around is to build them from 1" metal conduit sticks and elbows from your local Home Depot type store. We drive 4' rebar halfway into into the ground and slide the trellises over the rebar to hold them upright. Ours are over 15 years old, stored outside, and still going strong. With T's and elbows you can make them any size you need to fit.

A garden is an ongoing work in progress. The first year is the hardest. Each year your beds will get better, you'll learn tricks and tips that will make for less labor and better veggies, and you'll enjoy it more. I think you've accomplished a lot and I see a lot of promise there for a future backyard "bower". Keep it up!

[Bottomless_Pit]

I'm glad I did not dig more than 3 beds. My dad was pushing me to dig more, but my muscles got too tired. I have to admit 3 beds + my containers is a lot of work. I just poured about 15 gallons of water onto my beds and containers. I used a one gallon milk jug and lugged the water from our rain buckets to the garden.

I made sure to pour the water away from the plants. My dad says if the water touches the plants and the plants are in direct sunlight, the plants will get burned. My plan for later today is to pour another 15-30 gallons of water on my garden. Apparently I haven't been watering my plants enough since most of the plants have at least one yellow leaf.

Even the weeds are wilting, except the weeds I water. :) I made a point of uprooting as many weeds as I could. I feel stupid watering the weeds when my veggies are dying.

Morwen, you said that mulch will help keep the moisture in the garden? Meaning I won't have to water the garden as much right? After I water the garden plenty I'm going to get more mulch. I don't think I'll break up the soil unless I'm bored.

I started to get some yield the last few days on my bush beans. I'm pretty happy about the taste. I think part of the reason I neglected my garden a little was I was afraid I wouldn't get anything from my garden, as you could see in my video. The plant that is doing the worst in my garden is my sweet pepper, bell I think, the leaves are all wilted. I pulled all the weeds and have been watering the pepper, the soil looks great, not sure what's wrong with my pepper plant.

Its about 90 degrees F and has not rained in a while btw. My allergies are going off because of the dry hot weather. Was 90 yesturday too. High of 99 today, Thursday 90, 86,88, and 88 according to http://www.wunderground.com/

[Bottomless_Pit]

I finished watering the garden. I put in about 50 gallons of water all in all into my garden beds/plants. I noticed that after I broke up the soil the water seeped into the soil right away. I did most of the watering before I broke up the soil. I noticed its easier to break up moist clay than hard clay. All three garden beds have their soil broken up. I didn't break up the soil in my containers. I weeded a good amount on all the beds and containers. Now I just need more mulch.

[morwen]

The mulch will help keep the moisture in but that won't mean you can stop watering it. It's not a silver bullet. With the temps we've been having you'll need to water at least once a day. Without watering your plants will start to yellow (as you've already observed), what blossoms you have will shrivel and flowering will stop, and you may even lose any fruits that are forming. Drought conditions tell the plant to shut down and conserve. We're experiencing the same conditions as you and are watering everything at least once a day and the containers twice a day. I thought I saw a wheelbarrow in your video. If you can't get a hose to your garden, snag some more jugs from a recycling center, fill them up and tote them in the 'barrow. Bite the bullet and cultivate your soil so the water gets to the plants, otherwise you're doing all that toting for very little return. Most of the water will just run off. You can water directly at the base of your plants. Getting the leaves wet can cause sunburn, as well as promote molds and mildews if the humidity is also high.

[Bottomless_Pit]

The soil looks pretty good now that I broke up the soil with a hand shovel and poured water on the soil. I try to get all the soil wet, I've also been pouring water at the base of the plant, but some of the water hits the stem and underside of the leaves. A few days ago I was looking at other gardens, almost all of them have mulch and look real lush.

[Bottomless_Pit]

I barely watered my garden today, I wanted to wait to dusk, but I got busy. I guess I'll water at night closer to dawn and risk fungus that grow at night. Here's a video of my garden July 8th:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wb2aeY...

[Bottomless_Pit]

Rained today, the bush beans got hit the hardest by the fierce rain. My tomato plants are about twice the size of their cage. One of the plants bent about halfway over due to the rain. The Zucchini got knocked around a little by the rain. The Yellow Squash got hit the least. Maybe the mulch helped protect the Yellow Squash.

I went to work with my gloves and pickaxe at the poison ivy vines. I dug up a lot of thick vines. I even dug up a sort of hub for the vines. A thick tree base or stump underground. I managed to uproot the hub after about 3 mins of pick axing. I couldn't get all the vines since some of the underground roots went underneath my garden bed perimeter, into my garden beds. I washed thoroughly after wards.

[morwen]

Good for you! Poison ivy is extremely hard to get rid of and thankfully I've never had to deal with it. You might want to ask around for info on how to kill the vines.

[Bottomless_Pit]

Thanks, I'm more concerned about how the rain affected my raised beds. I may have over watered the plants, ever since the last rainfall the top of the soil is constantly moist. My Zucchini are losing their blossoms, several bush beans got snapped off where the soil meets the stem, finally a tomato plant went from vertical to pointing downwards. The tomato plant is like a hose with an angle so bent that water can't come out. I'm sure the plant was suffering so I let the top rest on the other tomato plant's cage.

I just completed mulching the bush bean/tomato bed since the bush beans take the most damage from rain fall. I also put 1/3 a barrel of mulch in with my zucchini. The yellow squash are fine.

[Bottomless_Pit]

Another heavy rain. Now I feel stupid for watering my plants so much. My tomato plants fell again. The mulch seemed to help lessened the impact only the tomato plants got hit by the rain this time.

I used my moisture meter to gauge the moisture in my beds and containers. The containers had a moisture level of about 8. The green beans/tomatoes raised bed 7, the yellow squash 6.5, and the zucchini 6. I noticed that the moisture level is least in the zucchini which gets the most direct sun of all the raised beds. I checked the light level when the sun was out and the light meter was just about max.

I checked my one plant that died inside a container. The moisture level was 10! I didn't even water it more than the others. :( My dad says the pot has no drainage holes. Seriously what gives, why did my dad wait for the plant to die to tell me?

[Cherylptw]

I'm surprised your seeds from Walmart didn't do well...I buy my seeds from several sources but about half of them come from Walmart. I did have a problem with chive and sage seeds not sprouting though but things like beans, several varieties of tomatoes, lettuce, snow peas, watermelon etc. does fine. Not bad for $1.00 each.

I also buy seeds from, believe it or not, a dollar store like Dollar General or Family Dollar where things like asian cucumbers, lettuce, tomatoes, eggplant, english peas, green & yellow wax beans & marigold flowers are 5 packs for a dollar. Just today, I got cauliflower & mustard greens seeds from a grocery store in my area 3 packs for a dollar. For things like tomatillos, ancho chiles, mixed salad, arugula & more uncommon veggies, I buy from my local nursery, Lowe's & online which of course, are a little more expensive. I rarely buy plants but last year, my bell peppers didn't do anything so I picked up a couple and they did well. Looks like I'm going to have to do that again this year.

Your soil has a lot to do with whether your seeds will come up & grow (I have horrible soil in my backyard & much better soil in my front, so I grow in both areas) If you have a agriculture extension office in your area, you can take samples of your soil to be tested for free. They will let you know any problems you may have & how to amend the soil to get better results. As far as the deer, you might have to fence off your garden; you can build posts and use chicken wire or fencing to keep them out.

What I want to know is what to do about grasshoppers...last year about July, grasshoppers came from out of nowhere and stayed into October, eating up my plants.

[Bottomless_Pit]

I'm surprised your seeds from Walmart didn't do well...I buy my seeds from several sources but about half of them come from Walmart. I did have a problem with chive and sage seeds not sprouting though but things like beans, several varieties of tomatoes, lettuce, snow peas, watermelon etc. does fine. Not bad for $1.00 each.

wow 1$ each! I paid like $3-4 per packet and my crops didn't sprout. You must have gone to a high class Walmart or something. My Walmart is in a working class area. Sounds funny but I found if I go to a uppity town some of the goods tend to be cheaper, particularly food.

I'm still worried about the deer. I was talking to my dad, and he says covering the plants is useless. My dad said he covered the garden with chicken wire and the deer just busted through.

[Cherylptw]

I had to chuckle when I read what you wrote about "high class" Walmart. Nope, my little town has about a 10% unemployment rate but it is southern rural so that may be why the seeds are cheaper. But about 95% of their seeds are 1.00 a pack unless you get a larger pack, which is about $2 or so.

Don't know what else to do about the deer except to put an electrical pen around your garden. The bonus with that is that you may even get some free venison if the deer decides to ignore it. ..I'd still talk to someone from the extension office; they may be able to offer some advice.

[junescook]

Being a certified master gardener in CT I have to echo what Cheryl and a couple of other folks have said on this board, thath the cheapest investment you can make on your new garden is by getting a soil analysis kit from the extension service of your state university, following the instructions and having the soil tested. They will send you the complete recommendations for pH, soil amendments, micronutrients, etc. They also have pamphlets on deer resistant varieties of plants and other non-toxic methods of defending your plants against them and other destructive animals (moles, voles, etc.). Furthermore, much of this info isprobably available online. But there's really not a whole lot of sense spending a bunch of money on fertilizers or other additives without spending a little on the soil test.

As far as seeds are concerned, while we in the northeast like to get specialty seeds from places like Johnny's, there's n reason that the Burpee's seeds you see in the big-box stores shouldn't sprout given the right temperature and soil conditions. Zucchini are pretty slow sprouters. You put 6 seeds in a hill, keep them well watered and it can be weeks before you see anything. When they come up, thin them to 3 or fewer plants. If your previous crop has failed to germinate, it is probably not too late to replant, (are you in zone 7?).

Sounds like a fence may be in the future for you if you want to have garden you can count on to provide you with a nice variety of veggies for the table. There are so many nice mesclun mixes now; tomatoes out of the garden re like heaven; and things like jerusalem artichokes (sunchokes) and asparagus come up year after year.

Good luck with your garden. Don' give up. This is how Alice Waters ot started too!

[Cherylptw]

Many county or agricultural extension services are free, including soil tests. The one where I live is not associated with a school but is run by the county and my test was free. It may take two weeks to get your results back though but no need to buy a soil kit if you don't have too.

My zucchini & squash always sprout within two weeks; some people thin their hills, I don't. Nor do I usually thin any of my plants with the exception of tomatoes because I usually put one or two seeds in the place I want them to grow (except for hills which require 6-8 seeds) so if, for example, two okra plants come up in a spot I put two seeds, I just let them both grow up.
I never move them. I have one hill of cantaloupe seedlings where all 8 sprouted and another hill where only one of the 8 sprouted. I'm debating whether to move a few of those 8. That said, this method doesn't work for everyone.

Bottomless, you might also want to consider container gardening for some of your crops. Many veggies grow well in containers; I'm going to take some of my tomato plants & pot them. I'm also going to dig up some of my herbs to pot. Last year, I grew mesclun in a wheelbarrow. If you get big enough containers, you could still have a big enough garden but move them around to avoid those deer. I saw a post somewhere on chow where the poster grew a garden in a kiddie pool for lack of a yard.

[Bottomless_Pit]

"agricultural extension services are free"

I'll have to look into getting a soil test. What do I google? "agricultural extension services", or is it better to talk to someone in person?

I did a google search and came to a goverment website. I followed the links to find my copperative extension in the area. Apparently Pennstate is in charge of the copperative extension in montgomery county. I'm a little lost of where to go next in the below link.

http://montgomery.extension.psu.edu/

and here's the goverment link I arrived at from the google search:

www.csrees.usda.gov/Extension/

[morwen]

Our cooperative extension operates under the auspices of Virginia Tech no matter what county a person lives in. It appears yours operate through Penn State.

Here's the address I found for the Philadelphia County Extension:
111 N. 49th Street, Suite KN3-100
3rd Floor North
Philadelphia, PA 19139

Phone: [phone]
Fax: [phone]

Email: [e-mail]

Office Hours: 8:00 to 5:00

And directions to their office:
Take 76E (Schuylkill Expressway) to the 30th Street exit.
1. Follow the exit (there's only one way to go) to Market Street and make a right turn onto Market Street.
2. Go on Market until 49th Street. Make a Right onto 49th.
3. Continue on 49th street. Before you reach the next light, you should see the entrance on the right leading into the KirkBride Center's main entrance (you will see "Blackwell Campus" sign)
4. Continue around circle, and find parking in the back lot on the right.
5. Once parked, continue towards the front of the building and follow signs for entrance.
6. The entrance (sliding doors) will lead you to the main Security desk. Please inform the personnel there that you are here to visit the Penn State office on the 3rd Floor.

[harrie]

I'd shoot the county office an e-mail or call them (the info is on your first link, the county one) to get details on what they do, what they need from you, etc. There may be a nominal fee involved; at least there is where I live (in CT).

They also offer a link to directions to their office, but depending how far that is from you, you can often mail samples in. But I'd e-mail/call first to see how many samples they need, how the samples should be taken, how they want them labeled, or if they have a kit set up for this, etc.

[Bottomless_Pit]

Alright, good info. I'll shove an e-mail in my county office's face in a bit. I was talking a stroll through my backyard and I found the neighbors have been dumping grass in my yard. I'm not mad, but I was thinking of using the grass for my garden.

I'm afraid of lawn chemicals used to murder innocent weeds. I don't know if my neighbors have used any lawn chemicals or not. There is a pile of fresh grass and a pile of dried grass, I think the correct term for dried grass is hay. Should I use the neighbors hay or wet grass in my garden?

[Sherri]

Don't use either one (fresh nor dry) unless you really like to weed! You're likely to get a bumper grass crop unless you compost the grass first.

I cannot speak to the issue of your neighbor's chemical use; try asking them, although I doubt they'll be thrilled to be found out that they're using your yard as the trash heap.

[Bottomless_Pit]

"Don't use either one (fresh nor dry) unless you really like to weed! "

Well I'm using the hay right now to smother the overgrown garden beds. My dad used the garden beds last year. After the deer ate the crops my dad left the garden alone. I've had to work a lot to till because of all the roots holding the soil together.

Seriously, this one grass was clinging so hard that I was having trouble breaking the ground. After I tilled a little bit the roots relented and the ground was not so bad. I cannot believe how much harder the grass made the soil to till. The grass was a dark green and grows taller than normal grass. Has an onion like bulb when you pull up the grass by the roots.

After tilling the dark green grass under I used the chopper to break up the soil. I found after 4-5 days of being upside down the grass looked pretty healthy. Only by separating the roots from the dirt with a hoe did I manage to dry out the grass.

[morwen]

You don't want to use hay either. It's full of seeds. You want straw. Straw is the by product left from harvesting oats. They remove the seed head (the oats) then allow the stems to dry and bale them. It's generally used as animal bedding. Hay is a combination of grasses and weeds used as fodder. It gets cut, dried, and baled seeds and all. Take your hay off the garden, pile it and the neighbor's grass somewhere out of the way and let it compost for a year. Pull your big sod clumps out of your beds and throw them in there too. Mix in your vegetable garbage from the kitchen, especially your coffee and tea grounds which will help get it hot and working, turn it over and water it on a regular basis and eventually you'll have some mighty fine compost to put in your garden. Free.

[Bottomless_Pit]

Here's what I've been doing. I've been putting left overs from the kitchen on top of the weeds in my raised garden beds that I have not tilled yet. The idea is I will till the left overs under, at the same time I till the weeds under. The left overs will turn to compost along with the weeds.

After I'm done planting I will put the kitchen leftovers to the compost heap instead. Next year I will put all the compost on top of the weeds instead of fresh matter.

Matter I have put on top of the weeds in my raised garden beds:

1. Paper products: Napkins, paper towels, and tissues
2. Kitchen left overs: coffee grounds, eggs shells, rotten meat and veggies, orange slices, cantaloupe rimes, pits and seeds of veggies and fruits, etc.
3. Random stuff: Cardboard boxes, hay, leaves, lawn clippings, wood chips, ash, cut or pulled by roots weeds, small trees that have been dug up, vermiculite, and human hair clippings.

Things my family has decided not to compost/use in garden beds:

Paint chips, any metal, plastic, Styrofoam, dead animals, human feces, glass.

The way I see it is my garden beds are full of seeds from all the weeds growing in the beds.

What's big sod clumps? Is that the big clumps of dirt full of roots from the weeds, and have weeds growing out of the top?

Hmm, I learned everything I know from composting from my dad, who learned composting from his dad. I went to http://www.howtocompost.org/ and looked at composting 101. My dad did not mentioned half the ideas in howtocompost. Oh yeah I've been adding meat and dog feces, oops.

Also our compost is more of a heap, we do not use any containers to store the compost nor do we stir the compost in anyway. We just keep adding to the compost. Sometimes it takes over a year for the compost to decompose. For example in a year a corn husk will turn from green to brown in our compost heap.

[morwen]

Our compost heaps are just piles too.
Definitely don't put any meat or dairy products in your heap. Add only the manure of grass/grain eating animals. Don't put your kitchen waste directly on your garden and till it in. It needs oxygen to rot properly and there's a good chance that not only when you till next year it'll still be there but can also attract soil-dwelling pests. I'm not sure about composting human hair but it might serve you better as a critter deterrent. Put it in cheesecloth bags and scatter it around the perimeters of your beds.

Sod is the upper visible layer of grass and weeds, full of roots and weed seeds. Break the sod with your tiller when you're making a new bed, stop and remove the sod clumps, then till up the ground below. By throwing the sod clumps in your compost you're getting weed and grass roots and seeds out of your new beds leaving less to weed in the future. The heat your compost pile generates will kill many of the seeds. When you till up the subsoil and till in amendments the bed will fluff up and be full.

Chop up anything you put into the compost pile into small bits. It will "cook" much faster. The bacteria that rots the compost needs moisture and air to do it's job. Your pile's interior will actually feel quite warm to the touch and in cold weather when you turn it you'll see steam. Turning it and watering it gives the bacteria the oxygen and moisture it needs. Every time you add something to the pile give it a couple of flips with a garden fork, fold that stuff in. The pile doesn't need to be wet, just dampened.
Corn husks do take awhile to disintegrate,even chopped. We don't put them in the piles anymore.

It takes approximately 6-8 weeks in warm weather for our piles to break down into usable stuff. We actually have several of them going. When one pile reaches a good size we start another and let the first one finish working. When it's finished we sift it through a hardware cloth screen into a big tub and allow it to cure a bit before putting it on the garden. Often after we screen it becomes a little "hot" again and we allow it to completely finish working before applying it. Hot, unfinished compost can burn your plants (be too strong).

[morwen]

Afterthought: Egg shells are fine to put directly on your beds. I wouldn't advise putting large pits like peach or avocado in your compost but small seeds are okay. We often find mighty fine volunteer pumpkin and squash vines growing out of our piles.

[Bottomless_Pit]

Morwen what did you mean by "When you till up the subsoil and till in amendments the bed will fluff up and be full."

subsoil and amendments? I'm pretty sure subsoil is the soil beneath the sod, and amendments is the compost?

After reading what you said I'm going to remove as much sod as possible. Till some more and take the old compost from the old compost heap which has not had anything added in months and throw the compost on top of the garden beds. BTW the old compost looks like a cross between leaves and soil.

Next, I'm going to gather all the hay and lawn clipping and toss them in a new compost heap. I'll throw everything in the new compost heap until the heap is too big to use.

[morwen]

Amendments are anything you add to your garden; compost, peat moss, vermiculite, leaves or leaf mold, lime, calcium, blood meal, etc. If you have that soil test done the report will come back with not only what's in your soil but what it's lacking. If you till in the first four amendments in the list you pretty much can't go wrong whether you have a soil test or not. The test will give you more detail about what your soil needs.

When you remove the sod the bed will look like there's not enough dirt in it. When you till up the soil and till in the amendments you'll loosen and mix everything and the bed will end up looking as full or fuller than it did before your removed the sod. That's what you want, nice, loose, fluffy soil, especially for root crops. BTW, leaf mold (composted leaves) are a great addition. If you can find out where your city/town dumps it's leaves they'll usually be happy to load you up with leaf mold for nothing.

The description of your old compost sounds like it's pretty well worked and ready. Ours looks a lot like potting soil after it's been screened.

Just don't make your new heap so big that you can't turn it easily. A few heaps in various stages of composting, if you have the room, are easier to manage than one humongous heap. Maybe that spot where the neighbor's been dumping grass on your land would be a good spot for one.

[Bottomless_Pit]

I went ahead and got three cardboard boxes my dad was going to throw away. The dimensions on the boxes are approx 3x2x1 ft, l,w,h respectively. I put all the kitchen and paper products w/o ink: napkins, tissues, paper towels in the compost. The compost from the house took hardly any room. Next, I started putting the sod in my boxes. I filled up two boxes very quickly and I'm only about half way done one bed.

I found removing the sod hard. The sod was so hard to remove because the grass, despite being turned upside down was still living and had re-rooted. Apparently simply burying alive grass will not kill the grass. The grass simply grows new stems from the other side of the root and dirt clump. I have a lot of work to do. Apparently transplanting grass and other weeds is the only way to get rid of the weeds.

After I'm done getting rid of the sod, I estimate I will lose between 1/2 and a full foot deep worth of soil. What should I use to replace the lost soil? You said in your post that I could use leaves, but I'm about to plant? Shouldn't the leaves decompose completely or the compost will be too hot and burn the plants?

As for the compost heaps, I plan to have about 20 cardboard boxes of similar dimensions, as soon as one box fills I move onto the next. Problem is I'm filling each box with just sod so far, lol. No wonder my dad's garden didn't do well. The deer ate the veggies and then the weeds grew back faster and shoved aside the veggies.

[morwen]

Get some big bags of peat moss and vermiculite from a nursery or garden store. The leaves should be last year's dried out fallen leaves, they won't hurt your bed. Spread a thick layer of each and a layer of your already worked compost on the bed and thoroughly till them in. When you're done doing that the volume of the bed should have risen considerably. Rake it smooth, give it a good watering and allow to settle and then it should be ready to plant.

[morwen]

You might want to take the master gardener course through your local cooperative extension. Despite the name you can be a novice gardener to participate. The classes are free and all that is asked in return is some volunteer hours helping the agents with other classes. Here's the Montgomery county Master Gardener page: http://montgomery.extension.psu.edu/M...

I couldn't find one for Philadelphia county because their page wouldn't load properly, but you can call them to see if they offer the course.

The course here where I live is full of friendly open people more than willing to share their knowledge and help new gardeners out. They'll be better able to give you answers you need because they're familiar with the specifics for gardening in your area. There's also a lot of informal seedling and plant swapping that goes on in the spring. We came home with 4 new dwarf apple trees after attending a grafting class recently.

[Bottomless_Pit]

I got on the waiting list to take a course in Master Gardening. Hopefully there will be enough interest for a course, otherwise I have to wait to 2012.

[cutipie721]

Well fed deers will make more babies and flourish.

Like other people said, definitely use different methods of repellant. Be prepared to find a few totally different methods, or else they'd figure out it's a "scam" and be used to it. This week you can have your dog pee around your perimeter, next week you can tie a few plastic bags all over the place so that they flop around and make noises, then have your husband/son pee... google has lots of ideas. Be creative and change regularly.

Also, grow something that they hate, like most herbs and spiky things. Grow them around your garden. When they take a few bites at the perimeter, they may lose interest and leave (keyword here is "may")

[Bottomless_Pit]

My neighbors are kind of close, even though my garden is in my backyard. I have a guard dog, but the dog can't bark or the neighbors will call the police. I still feel mean trying to chase away the deer, I doubt the deer have anywhere else to go.

[morwen]

We net and fence everything. What's working for a friend of mine is peanut butter and an electric fence. It's just a waist high wire to which she attaches strips of foil coated with peanut butter. The deer lick the strips and receive a small jolt. Repeated jolts teach them to stay away. Of course the peanut butter has to be renewed on a regular basis because you'll always have a slow learner or new students coming in. The other thing that deer don't like is common chicken wire laid flat on the ground around the perimeter of your beds. They hate to walk on it and since they can't see how far it goes they generally won't jump it.

Don't feel mean about chasing away the deer, they always have somewhere else to go. Like the next door neighbors.

[Bottomless_Pit]

"Don't feel mean about chasing away the deer, they always have somewhere else to go. Like the next door neighbors."

I like the way you think Morwen! Maybe, I can chase the deer to my neighbors garden, muwhahahhaha! In my yard we have lots and lots of black walnut trees. Walnut trees grow really high so there isn't much sun. My parents have managed to grow vegetables before, as well as some wild berries.

[morwen]

You might want to think about doing raised beds if you have black walnuts. Build the sides and then lay a barrier like landscape fabric in the bottom before you fill it with soil from your garden center or elsewhere. Black walnut trees can have an inhibiting effect on other vegetation.

[Bottomless_Pit]

How far is the inhibiting effect? Most of the black walnuts are in the front yard, and the garden in the back. The black walnut trees are each over 30 years old, so each tree goes a long ways.

[morwen]

If all of the walnuts are in the front and none in the back you shouldn't have a problem. If any are in the back I'd avoid putting your beds near them. As old as they are you'd probably not plant near them anyway because of the amount of shade they throw.

[Bottomless_Pit]

My garden is out of the shade of the older walnut trees. How about baby walnut trees, can baby walnut trees produce inhibitors? I tilled under a few baby walnut trees in my raised beds.

[morwen]

Dunno. Nothing grew under the black walnut we had but grass and that was kinda sparse. If there were any baby walnuts they got mowed down regularly.

[Beckyleach]

I've heard that younger walnuts are just as toxic, for their size, as larger. Mainly, you need to be SURE and avoid anything planted under the drip line, but, unfortunately, the effects of the juglone can reach as far as 50 feet from the trunk of the tree.

All is not lost, however! There are a few vegetables resistant to the black walnut effect, especially squash, corn, and lima beans. I ran out of gardening space this year and had no choice but to till my new beds near my neighbor's walnut tree (darn old guy has planted dozens of them on his property!!!) so I'll keep you posted as to whether my squashes and melons survive and thrive, or not.

[DonShirer]

Here are two more seed suppliers worth trying:
Johnny's Seeds - (High quality seeds and many interesting varieties)
www.johnnyseeds.com/
Pinetree Garden Seeds - Cheaper packages allow you to try more varieties for the same amount of money.
www.superseeds.com/

You can find more on the DavesGarden site morwen mentioned, which also has excellent advice for gardening tyros.

Adding peat moss, flaky vermiculite and compost (all available from garden centers) will help clay soil.

There are few plants deer will not eat. Planting deer attractants sounds like a bad idea. That will bring in more deer and raises the risk that after dining on your decoys, they will search for something different for dessert! A good high fence around the garden area is one strategy. I recently built some raised beds outside my fenced area, and to protect them from critters (rabbits and chipmonks included) I built arched chickenwire covers over them (see photo). So far that has worked well.

[Bottomless_Pit]

Wow, you got a lot of sunny area Don! I have a lot of trees, but not that much sun. I do not think deer are endangered, just a shame all the deer have to huddle around my house! Btw I bought some seed at a local nursery and the guy said we are in zone 7.

[morwen]

We use these mail order seed companies:
http://www.gourmetseed.com/?ysmwa=324-YSKine_PQUIuxCGHO3I7_BWfE7h8NmzklMnQwSyDgerMBhGevrx_-Usy174h
http://www.southernexposure.com/index.html
http://www.osborneseed.com/catalog_new.cfm

And this page on the Dave's Garden website gives user reviews of lots of seed and plant vendors: http://davesgarden.com/products/gwd/

Dave's Garden is a great place for new and experienced gardeners in general: http://davesgarden.com/

We have severe problems with deer and critters as well so we use a hoop and netting system to foil them. We use 2' rebar pounded halfway into the ground on either side of the bed and slip flexible electrical conduit over the rebar to form hoops. Over that we place netting held in place with giant black "winged" paper clips. The set up is very affordable and everything but the clips is available from your local Home Depot type store. The netting's in the garden section. This photo shows the structure with the netting in place: http://www.chow.com/photos/378897?tag=user_160677_photos;photo_378897
And in this photo you can see the plastic in the back ground: http://www.chow.com/photos/451494?tag... We're currently using the plastic to warm the beds and protect against frosts Our hoops and trellises cobbled from conduit have proven to be quite durable. The first trellis we made from steel conduit is about 15 yrs old, outside year round, and shows no sign of rust.

Our soil is heavy clay as well and I'd recommend contacting your local cooperative extension to have a soil test done so you know exactly what amendments you need. Beyond that we regularly till in compost, vermiculite, peat moss, and composted horse/cow manure. We have our idle beds planted in cover crops which will be tilled in for "green manure". The roots of the cover crops help further by breaking up the subsoil.

Hope this helps! Don't get discouraged, a garden is a perpetual work in progress!

[dfrostnh]

I agree that covering your beds will do a better job at protecting your crops from deer. You may also have rabbits and other critters enjoying your hard work. Last year a brazen chipmunk hopped up on the tomato cages to eat the tomatoes while I was sitting a few feet away.
I have had good luck spraying the perimeter of the garden beds with Deer repellant I buy at the farm store. It's pretty smelly since it is made from wild animal urine.
It is easier for us to buy sweet corn from a local farmer rather than try to grow it. The raccoons got really good at outwitting us.
I prefer mail order seeds but you should find a good selection at a local farm and feed store if there's one in your area. I was at Lowe's garden center yesterday and noticed some seed displays with roofs over them. Apparently they are left out to the elements and all kinds of temperatures. The garden center doesn't have a roof.
Good luck.