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What's the Deal with Dirty (and Extra Dirty) Martinis?

invinotheresverde Apr 21, 2010 06:31 PM

Could someone please explain the allure of gin/vodka mixed with olive brine? I love olives, and all things salty, but I just don't understand the boner people have for 'em.

  1. s
    stephenlloyd Jul 17, 2012 10:39 PM

    Here's my point of view, as a 26 year old business co-founder in one of the nation's craziest college towns: Pullman, WA. This town has a small selection of bars that even offer the ingredients to make a dirty martini. Most stock their shelves with just beer (pullman has the grocery store responsible for the most busch light sold per square footage in the country) or the makings for well drinks + soda / red bull. When I go out with my buddies or clients, I tend to not want to take straight shots of well whiskey with a coke-back or slam a rockstar+vodka. The sugar leads to hangovers and beer makes you want to pass out early. As a nice alternative, the dirty martini (which can only be provided by Valhalla bar and grill if you are on college hill) is a quick way to go through 2 shots in a matter of minutes (or seconds depending on how hard your friends are trying to bro-out that night). I usually ask for mine in a short glass just so I don't shatter their cocktail glass if I have a few too many. It also doesn't make you look like a pussy (get rid of the olives asap). With the amount of brine most dirty martini makers put in the drink, you can order top shelf Ketel one or whatever they have in the gun. It all tastes salty, they always come with 2 shots, well vodka is the cheapest drink in a college town, and you sound like an adult ordering it. That is my two cents.

    1. TheHuntress Apr 15, 2011 02:01 AM

      I haven't read the other posts yet, but I had to open my big mouth (again!). I have no idea what the appeal of a dirty martini is - in fact I think it's one of the most horrid cocktails I've had the displeasure of tasting. It is purely my opinion, but I prefer my cocktails on the tart/acidic/sour side and I also like tasting the alcohol I'm drinking. Each to their own I suppose, but I don't understand the allure of them either.

      1. a
        AdamD Apr 12, 2011 04:08 PM

        I am not going to get into the variations of a martini.
        But to me, as long as the ingredients consist of good gin or vodka, dry vermouth and olives or olive juice, we are good. You can still call it a martini. Personally, I love a gibson made with beefeater or tanqueray. Old school.

        10 Replies
        1. re: AdamD
          MGZ Apr 13, 2011 09:59 AM

          I was recently at a local bar and noticed that they had Bulldog in addition to the three or four "standard" gins that most places carry. Excited, I ordered a "Bulldog gibson, up."

          "What's in that?" The bartender responded.

          Less concerned than perhaps I should have been, I inquired as to whether they have cocktail onions.

          "Sure." He replied.

          I explained what I was asking for and off he went.

          I sipped and spit the liquid right back in the glass. Apparently, the bartender took it upon himself to pour some of the pickling solution into the mix; thinking it would make the cocktail better. Now, I'm not a big fan of the Dirty Martini, but the Slimy Gibson may be the worst drink I've ever tried.

          1. re: MGZ
            a
            AdamD Apr 13, 2011 10:46 AM

            hahaha slimy gibson

            That almost sounds inappropriate!
            Indeed, I would not have ordered it in that situation-probably some old onions as well.

            1. re: MGZ
              invinotheresverde Apr 13, 2011 10:58 AM

              God, that sounds like a fantastic way to ruin my favorite cocktail.

              1. re: MGZ
                m
                marais Apr 14, 2011 08:09 AM

                IMHO there is a crucial difference between the cocktails you order out (in most places) and the cocktails you make at home. I never order out a martini or gibson unless I know that the bar had real cred and the bartender had skills.
                At home, however, it's all up to me, and I can make my martini just the way I like it: 3:1 Beefeater or Miller's with fresh Noilly Prat, a tomolive for garnish and yes, just a touch of fresh tomolive brine. I love what a small amount of clean brine does for the botanicals in gin; too much, or too old and slimy, and you've killed the drink.

                1. re: marais
                  thew Apr 14, 2011 09:10 AM

                  never heard of tomolives. i'm intrigued

                  1. re: thew
                    invinotheresverde Apr 14, 2011 09:23 AM

                    You're better off not knowing.

                    I open a jar and they're gone that day.

                    1. re: thew
                      alanbarnes Apr 14, 2011 10:18 AM

                      They're picked green cherry tomatoes. It's a southern thing.

                      1. re: alanbarnes
                        m
                        marais Apr 18, 2011 03:35 PM

                        Indeed it is a Southern thing, suh. But since I got my tomolives here in Boston, I have a notion that they are becoming more known as a martini garnish.
                        And I had forgotten to mention that the perfect bitters for such a savory vegetal martini is celery bitters. With a balanced dry gin, fresh vermouth, tomolive with a touch of brine and those bitters, that martini suits me fine. YMMV.

                        1. re: marais
                          thew Apr 23, 2011 01:19 PM

                          i think im going to try and make some

                    2. re: marais
                      MGZ Apr 15, 2011 08:02 AM

                      Actually, the most adult adulterated cocktail I've ever tried to consume was the result of my own doing, albeit inadvertent. Having made countless martinis at home, the process is basically involuntary. Garnish in the glass then the ice cubes, gin, and vermouth added to the shaker in their proper amounts. A dash of bitters is the final touch before swirling.

                      Well, one day, being distracted, I grabbed what I thought was the Fee Brothers and without looking flicked my wrist for the drops. Instead of a thin stream of liquid sliding into the tin, a bit glop thunked in. I looked at the bottle in my hand and realized that I was holding the Dave’s Insanity Sauce.

                      Not wanting to accept my stupidity or the fact that I was almost out of gin, I decided to try the concoction. “How bad could it be?” I thought. I troopered though a few swallows, at first thinking maybe it would be ok. The burn on the tongue and throat weren’t so bad, but that fierce combination wasn’t very pleasant on any empty stomach. I gave up, went back to the kitchen, and grabbed a beer.

                2. s
                  steve001 Apr 12, 2011 03:56 PM

                  Wow ok this is stupid and so is this whole "Rookie Drink" business. Lol, what does that even mean? Youre new to drinking? You dont like the taste of straight vodka? Honestly, if you like what youre drinking then thats it. Why are you trying to add these social connotations to the "Type" of person that likes something mixed with their gin/vodka?

                  There are two drinks that I'll have: the dirty martini and scotch neat. I cant see how scotch neat is a real drink while vodka and olive brine isnt. If you like the drink, thats it. End of discussion. You should drink it.

                  1. JonParker May 1, 2010 04:50 AM

                    I'm going to defend the dirty martini. I don't drink them much, but my girlfriend does so I make them for her fairly often. I think as with any drink proper balance is essential -- it is possible for the brine to overwhelm rather than enhance the drink. With a smooth gin like Plymouth or Boodles it's possible to create a pretty tasty drink. It's more problematic with something with pronounced botanicals, like Sapphire.

                    And honestly, she likes it that way. She also loves my potato salad, which uses olive brine as well.

                    1 Reply
                    1. re: JonParker
                      MMRuth May 1, 2010 04:53 AM

                      I agree - though a too dirty Martini is terrible.

                    2. s
                      soupkitten Apr 27, 2010 10:00 PM

                      1) the person doesn't like to taste alcohol, or isn't accustomed to it yet, so would rather taste salt, but paradoxically the person wants to look sophisticated enough to drink a "real drink"

                      2) the person thinks the name of the drink is edgy and cool. in. . .1987.

                      and/or

                      3) the person is a serious, erm, "habitual session cocktail enthusiast?" salt helps hangovers, you lose sodium and trace elements when you sweat out booze. salt, like ice-cold liquid temperatures, also deadens the taste buds so that the first dose can go down quicker. see also the pickle and celery salt in the bloody mary, salty bar snacks like peanuts, pretzels, pork rinds, pickled eggs, chips, salt on the rim of a margarita, salty dog, with shot of tq, etc. when you drink a lot, salt can make you feel better. or at least it can make you not feel like throwing up quite so much. people who live this way seem to learn this stuff instinctively. watch for that tremor when they pick up their first dirty martini, that isn't there when they pick up their second one.

                      1 Reply
                      1. re: soupkitten
                        thew Apr 28, 2010 04:50 AM

                        4) they like the taste

                      2. e
                        ed1066 Apr 27, 2010 05:05 PM

                        I used to like them until I saw a bartender pour the olive juice from the garnish tray into the shaker, using his fingers to hold back the olives. And this was in a reputable joint. Now I'll just go with the twist, thank you.

                        1 Reply
                        1. re: ed1066
                          thew Apr 27, 2010 07:25 PM

                          i'm pretty sure the bartender twisted the twist using those same fingers

                        2. yarm Apr 27, 2010 01:38 PM

                          While I have never had a Dirty Martini, I have had drinks with and without a pinch of salt. With the salt, it adds a very savory quality to the drink that otherwise would be absent or muted. It seemed rather gross at first, but delightful once in there.

                          Cynar and tequila are two spirits that seem to benefit from a little salt.

                          1. MC Slim JB Apr 25, 2010 08:32 PM

                            If your bartender is making your dirty martini with brine from a well-fingered garnish tray, it is literally dirty. I think it's a travesty of a cocktail, but it is a matter of taste. I do object to the comparison of brine to vermouth, which sounds like the observation of someone who hasn't tasted many of the great vermouths out there.

                            http://mcslimjb.blogspot.com/

                            5 Replies
                            1. re: MC Slim JB
                              EvergreenDan Apr 26, 2010 04:57 AM

                              I'm not saying that brine = vermouth. I'm saying that, along with cynar or campari or cointreau they are valid modifiers to vermouth. It's not unlike Maks adding a pinch of salt, it would seeem. It's not like I'm suggesting Parfait Amour or bubble gum syrup. :)

                              As for the ad hominem, my fridge currently has Dolin, Vya, M&R Bianco, Boissiere sweet, Carpano Antica, and two sherries. I certainly am no vermouth expert, but I've tasted a few.

                              1. re: EvergreenDan
                                MC Slim JB Apr 26, 2010 04:01 PM

                                That wasn't meant as an attack, but a defense of vermouth; I understood your post above to be slagging vermouth as "cheap flavored fortified wine", which I guess you intended ironically. Sorry: the irony eluded me.

                                http://mcslimjb.blogspot.com/

                                1. re: EvergreenDan
                                  EvergreenDan Apr 27, 2010 04:40 AM

                                  No offense taken, no reason to apologize, all in good fun.. I should have been clearer.

                                  I didn't mean to imply ad hominem abusive, but rather ad hominem circumstantial. That I may or may not have tasted a large selection of quality vermouths does not invalid the logic of my argument that a small amount of brine is comparable as a flavor modifier for gin to other accepted ingredients, such as vermouth or Cynar.

                                  But then again, vermouth is each of cheap, fortified, and flavored, is it not? ;-)

                                  My real point is not a defense of dirt in a drink (man, I have to come up with a drink to use that name!), or a tongue-on-palette attack on wine, but rather to support good cocktails as evangelists. Part of this is recognizing who's already in the flock and who might be ready to join. And, I suppose, who is beyond conversion.

                                  For whatever reason, it bothers me when I see grown adults -- particularly those in their middle years and beyond -- selecting drinks that are more appropriate for beginning drinkers. I would feel the same if they were eating Froot Loops. It's a waste of perfectly good adult taste buds.

                                  I'm not a purist. I will drink a coke occasionally. But I'd rather Sanbitter. Or unsweetened iced tea. But I like to exercise my adult tastes when I can. And I enjoy bringing others with me.

                                  The balancing act is to do this without appearing to be elitist or aloof. Perhaps you really never know what your friends and guests think. I try to push a bit, but not too hard.

                                  1. re: EvergreenDan
                                    c
                                    Canadian Tuxedo Apr 27, 2010 09:04 PM

                                    Interesting conversation. I just have two points to add:

                                    1. I agree with EvergreenDan that a small amount of brine could be considered in a similar vein as other additives to gin cocktails. Regardless if it is truly dirty (i.e. coming from the garnish tray) or simply a mix sold in such stores as The Boston Shaker in the Boston area, I'm not sold on the fact that it is so different than say an Alaska in terms of the strength of the taste of the gin-modifying agent. To argue the respectability of that agent is, in my opinion, to be snobby.

                                    2. I do recoil from terms such as "rookie juice." I think in the end we should all agree to respect each others' tastes. You might laugh at that statement, but at least in the Boston area a great number of bartenders and cocktail enthusiasts not only wear their enjoyment of Fernet as a badge of cool, but include Miller Hi Life in that category as well. So good to cocktail geeks, but laughable to beer geeks. I have friends who are dirty martini drinkers, and while perhaps rookies to cocktail geeks, in terms of life experience they are certainly no rookies and make most cocktail geeks I've met/run into seem like uneducated homers. Also, my father loves his rum and cokes and cheap brandy. He'll enjoy a gin martini when I make him one, but latches on to old favorites the rest of the time. And this is a man that was not only on station during the Cuban Missile Crisis, but has traveled the world and tasted more indigenous alcohol than the vast majority of posters on Chowhound.

                                    So in the end, to each their own I guess...

                                    1. re: Canadian Tuxedo
                                      MC Slim JB Apr 27, 2010 11:22 PM

                                      I certainly agree with the point that your taste in cocktails is no reflection on your worth as a person. Regardless, there are still degrees of connoisseurship in cocktails, levels of sophistication in their appreciation -- as of anything made by gifted artists or skilled artisans. Everybody starts out with an unrefined sensibility, but if you come to care about a particular art or craft, persistent study, exploration and exposure to the work of gifted creators / fabricators has a way of making you eschew the amateurish, the trite, and the slapdash.

                                      My disdain for the Dirty Vodka Martini does not have anything to do with some preconception of the sort of people who drink it, rather with its one-note dullness and the frequently shoddy way in which it is made. There's no craft, no scholarship, no skill, no alchemy in it of the kind that more serious cocktails made by talented / adept bartenders can embody. I'm not arguing against simple drinks -- there are plenty that I like -- but against crude ones, cocktails that lack balance. A haphazard combination of salt, water and ethanol doesn't meet that nominal cocktail standard, in my book.

                                      Perhaps part of my unforgiving attitude toward the DVM is the frequency with which its made with super-premium vodkas. I think the alleged differences between a vodka that retails for $20 and one that retails for $40 or $60 are almost entirely in packaging and advertising: super-premium vodkas are a scam, a collusion between consumers seeking brand affiliation and spirits marketers happy to profitably fill that need. If there is any flavor reason to drink Grey Goose over Smirnoff, it's almost ineffably subtle, and if it actually exists, you're clubbing it to death with that olive brine. A DVM made with a pricey call brand brings a bad cocktail to the level of completely ridiculous cocktail.

                                      That said, "Here, here" to the notion of coaxing rookies up the path toward a richer appreciation of thoughtful cocktails, rather than just looking back and mocking them. I think we're still in an evangelical phase, and the movement needs more converts to sustain it.

                                      http://mcslimjb.blogspot.com/

                              2. cosmogrrl Apr 22, 2010 03:36 PM

                                For me it's a mood thing. Sometimes I just want my Martini a little dirty, sometimes I just want it dry. And sometimes I want a bit more vermouth. I like them with gin and I like them with vodka. I never make a dirty gin martini though. I never have them extra dirty though.

                                1. a
                                  Ali Apr 22, 2010 01:16 PM

                                  Because it's good? I don't generally like things masking the vodka (yeah, I'm one of those people) and I generally don't like olives in my martinis, so I rarely order one, but on the rare ocassion, dirty martinis are just yummy. It adds an extra dimension to the drink, especially with the slight sweetness that Ciroc has on the finish.

                                  Never heard of an extra dirty martini, though. I want just a splash of brine in my dirty martini, no more.

                                  13 Replies
                                  1. re: Ali
                                    invinotheresverde Apr 22, 2010 07:12 PM

                                    "Because it's good?"

                                    That's what boggles my mind, though. I've tried them and think salty gin/vodka is nasty. I realize good v. bad is subjective, of course, but, as davis_sq said, it seems like such a rookie drink. Why mask the flavor of your booze?

                                    If you like 'em, hey, that's cool; I'm just trying to get it.

                                    1. re: invinotheresverde
                                      a
                                      Ali Apr 23, 2010 06:35 AM

                                      I think it's one of those things where if you don't like it, you just won't "get" it. It's not a moral failing either way (I hope!). :)

                                      And a dirty martini isn't about masking your booze. The extra dirty martini, maybe (assuming that extra dirty means extra brine?), but the perfect dirty martini should just have a splash of brine. It should add a little extra salty dept, not have enough brine to mask out any prevailing flavours. Or at least that's my experience with dirty vodka martinis. Salty gin sounds pretty nasty to me, too.

                                      1. re: invinotheresverde
                                        thew Apr 24, 2010 10:23 AM

                                        arguing taste is silly.

                                        i rarely have a dirty martini (then i rarely have martinis at all) but i get it. a martini is a bit of a one note song (and the drier they are the more monotone they are)

                                        the brine adds another note to the chord. it is a fuller tasting drink. well made it does not hide anything, it adds something.

                                        1. re: thew
                                          invinotheresverde Apr 25, 2010 07:24 AM

                                          Gin (and vodka, I guess) with good vermouth is hardly one note.

                                          1. re: invinotheresverde
                                            thew Apr 25, 2010 07:30 AM

                                            to me, while it's delicious, it's not complex ( and vodka, having no taste, wouldn't really add a flavor note to vermouth, would it?)

                                            1. re: thew
                                              invinotheresverde Apr 26, 2010 09:08 AM

                                              I definitely find quality gin and good vermouth to definitely be complex, especially with a dash of bitters. Vodka, certainly less so, agreed.

                                              1. re: invinotheresverde
                                                thew Apr 26, 2010 02:53 PM

                                                a dash of bitters adds complexity. again - i like a martini. just find it pretty one note. when that's the note i want, no problem.....

                                              2. re: thew
                                                c oliver May 3, 2010 07:34 AM

                                                It's funny that so many people say that vodka has no taste. To me, almost every brand tastes different. I really don't like Absolut and I tried the Kirkland premium vodka and gave the bottle away.

                                                1. re: c oliver
                                                  MC Slim JB May 3, 2010 09:40 AM

                                                  I'd bet good money that most vodka drinkers would be hard-pressed to identify their favorite brand in a blind taste test. I certainly don't think the teensy differences between most vodkas justify super-premium prices. By legal definition, vodka is supposed to be inherently flavorless.

                                                  http://mcslimjb.blogspot.com/

                                                  1. re: MC Slim JB
                                                    alanbarnes May 3, 2010 10:19 AM

                                                    Although vodka is supposed to be flavorless, the complete absence of flavor is pretty hard (impossible?) to achieve. So there are differences in flavor.

                                                    Those differences are, however, miniscule compared to the differences in hype. Sidney Frank (the first guy to put mediocre vodka in a pretty bottle and slap a $30 price tag on it) is a marketing genius with an enormous solid-brass pair of, well, never mind.

                                                    Those whose day-to-day drink is vodka neat or on the rocks can probably identify their favorites. But somebody who orders Belvedere cosmos or Cîroc-n-tonics because they've been told it's what they should drink? Probably not.

                                                    1. re: MC Slim JB
                                                      davis_sq_pro May 3, 2010 10:23 AM

                                                      Warm, I think you might be able to discern subtle differences if you really concentrate and don't let your palate get too numbed by the alcohol. Cool, it will be difficult, maybe impossible, to get anything. Iced, same problems as cool, plus the flavor of the water used to make the ice will start masking any flavors in the vodka--next to impossible to tell them apart. And mixed in a cocktail, forget about it. I challenge ANYONE to tell the difference between two midrange to high end vodkas when mixed with a splash of olive brine. I'll leave open the possibility that the lower-end brands might burn a bit more.

                                                      1. re: MC Slim JB
                                                        yarm May 3, 2010 11:08 AM

                                                        Do a tasting of vodka and you'll realize that variations do exist. Some are super clean and others have hints of grain, grape, or whatever they were distilled with. Or hints of whatever they were adulterated with like glycerol.

                                                        And there are also some pot still single distilled vodkas (as opposed to column still prepared through multiple distillation runs) appearing on the market like Karlson's and U'Luvka that have some extra character and body.

                                                        Still a moot point when people call for top shelf vodka with their soda, tonic, juice, or brine.

                                                        1. re: yarm
                                                          MC Slim JB May 3, 2010 11:09 AM

                                                          I've been looking for Karlson's at retail in the Boston area exactly for the purpose of investigating this claim: know anyone that carries it?

                                                          http://mcslimjb.blogspot.com/

                                          2. TroyTempest Apr 22, 2010 10:19 AM

                                            Cause it sounds cool to order.

                                            2 Replies
                                            1. re: TroyTempest
                                              invinotheresverde Apr 22, 2010 10:43 AM

                                              If you're a cougar on the prowl, maybe. ;)

                                              1. re: invinotheresverde
                                                ted Apr 24, 2010 06:27 AM

                                                Sounds like more a case for the "dirty, hot and bothered" martini. Add some pickled jalapeno juice for heat.

                                            2. davis_sq_pro Apr 21, 2010 08:45 PM

                                              As an ex-dirty martini drinker, it's easy:

                                              I didn't like the taste of alcohol at the time, and it was perfect. The olive brine hides most of the alcohol taste and just delivers a big dose of salt/sour flavor. With a tiny bit of alcohol on the back to remind you that you're having A Real Drink, not some wussy screwdriver, a beer, or something equally low-octane.

                                              Nowadays I actually enjoy a bit of burn in my drinks. I want to taste the liquor in addition to the adjuncts. So the story is totally different. And as I've gotten older I've become slightly more sensitive to huge doses of salt so I can't drink an ounce of brine anyway...

                                              I think dirty martinis are rookie juice, plain and simple. Gateway drinks, just like the over-sweetened blender daiquiris and margaritas. Nothing too interesting there, but it gets you drunk, and you can't even taste the liquor.

                                              6 Replies
                                              1. re: davis_sq_pro
                                                JMF Apr 23, 2010 09:55 AM

                                                I agree with you. Rooky drink. I drank tham at one time, but realized they were hiding the taste of the gin.. So I went to martini on rocks, then straight up, then gin on the rocks as my tastes developed. then light gin cocktails, then negroni's and such.

                                                1. re: davis_sq_pro
                                                  EvergreenDan Apr 23, 2010 01:10 PM

                                                  Is a historic Martini (say 2:1) also rookie juice, because that cheap flavored fortified wine is just there to hide the gin taste? Maybe so. Maybe not.

                                                  Regardless of exactly how it's made, there are very, very few drinks that I can have night-after-night without getting bored. Martini, good scotch neat, Campari, Maybe a Manhattan.

                                                  I applaud Martini drinkers. Their imbibing world extends far beyond what many others will experience. A little brine doesn't change that much, I'd guess. Never having tried it. :)

                                                  1. re: EvergreenDan
                                                    davis_sq_pro Apr 23, 2010 01:15 PM

                                                    Vermouth accents and accentuates the flavor of gin, even at a 2:1 ratio. Brine obliterates it. Give it a try next time you're in a bar that can't mix a proper drink. Just remember why (I suspect) they call it "dirty": that brine has been sitting there for days, maybe weeks, has had 20 different peoples' hands dipped it in, and is really just nasty stuff.

                                                    1. re: EvergreenDan
                                                      EvergreenDan Apr 23, 2010 04:16 PM

                                                      I like big, bright green olives, like those huge puppies from Whole Foods with the pit in them. I can easily put 3 of those in a Martini with a health dose (maybe 1:3) of Boissiere and be very happy. I like gnawing on them. Food and beverage combined.

                                                      And I'll sip a Fernet Branca neat, if it's served to me. :-P

                                                      I'm just saying that dirty Martini drinkers have already "gotten" the cocktail thing, I think. They aren't member of the "to be reformed / re-educated" camp. They have already seen the light. As evangelists for craft cocktails, the "unwashed" are those happily drinking Jack-and-Cokes or Strawberry Margaritas or Bud Light. (The more metaphors, the better, apparently.) Many of these people haven't yet had their mind blown by, say, a glass of cold Carpano Antica. Much less a Gunshop Fizz.

                                                      Within my limited world, I try to expand my guests horizons. I try to take each guest to the edge of their comfort zone, if they'll let me. I absolutely love it when someone does that to me.

                                                      1. re: EvergreenDan
                                                        JMF Apr 24, 2010 08:16 AM

                                                        Dan, I have to disagree that dirty martini drinkers have gotten the cocktail thing. The dirty cocktail is from the same era as the alabama slammer and other crappy cocktails.

                                                        1. re: EvergreenDan
                                                          EvergreenDan Apr 24, 2010 09:51 AM

                                                          Maybe there's a historical perspective that I'm missing, but from a pure flavor perspective, I don't see why olive and brine is any more of a travesty for gin than, say, Cynar, I've actually never had one (as enough brine and olive flavor comes with my preferred 3 big-boys), but in my imagination it doesn't sound like a bad idea.

                                                          A big glass of OJ with some Amaretto, Sloe Gin, and Southern Comfort versus Gin, Vermouth, and a tsp of brine. They may be from the same era, but they don't seem like they are from the same league.

                                                          But now you have me thinking. Change the OJ to Creole Shrubb. Use Luxardo for the Amaretto and Plymouth for the Sloe Gin. Rye for the Southern Comfort. . Lemon for acid. Change the ratios so the Rye dominates (maybe 6:1:1:1:3). Healthy dose of Angostura Orange. Hmmmmm... :)

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