Waterstone Suggestion?

[Chemicalkinetics]

My current waterstone is combination 1000/6000 grit stone. It was 1" thick (deep) when I got it 6 months ago and now it is 3/4". It may not last for another 6 months. Certainly the 1000 grit side will not last too long. I am looking for individual stones as opposed to a combination stone.

I am still looking for flat waterstones, but I am opened to the so called ceramic stones. I don't know much about ceramic stones except they are more expensive and do not require soaking. Now sure their drawbacks. My current stone is 2" in width and I am looking for wider stones in the future because I believe wider stones work faster and keep the knife edge flatter. I am looking for at least a ~1000 grit stone and a ~6000-8000 grit stones and maybe a stone in between.

Dave Martell's store appears to offer some nice stones (definitely stones with good dimensions), but can I do better? Any suggestion is welcome. Thanks.

[Dave5440]

Gater has some reviews on them http://zknives.com/knives/sharpening/ceramic.shtml
and whetstones http://zknives.com/knives/sharpening/...

[Chemicalkinetics]

I've decided to resurrect this post. Because of the previous helpful suggestions, I bought the 2000 grit and 5000 grit Naniwa super stones and they are nice. Neverthless, I am again on the market to get a 1000 grit stone because (1) my original 1000 grit stone is wearing thin and (2) my DMT fine grit diamond stone is wearing out as well and I figure that I will get a 1000 grit water stone instead of another DMT diamond stone.

I definitely read good things about the Bester 1200 grit stone. It is also a very good selling stone. I wonder if that is due to Dave Martell's influence.

My questions are
1) Is Bester 1200 grit stone that much better than Bester 1000 grit stone? Does it mean I should get the 1200 stone instead of the 1000 stone, even I have a 2000 grit stone. If they are equally good, then I would rather get the 1000 stone due to my 2000 stone.

2) I am also considering getting a Naniwa 1000 grit super stone, just because the 2000 and 5000 grit stones are working out for me. Should I be worry about the Naniwa 1000 grit stone? (Just because Naniwa makes a good 5000 grit stone does not necessary mean that 1000 grit stone is great).

Thanks.

[cowboyardee]

This is gonna get tricky. My recommendation to you is gonna be based off of how you've been sharpening - your current progression.

Where are you starting most sharpening jobs with these days? With the DMT fine grit? As I've mentioned, I don't really mess around with the DMTs personally except for the XXC for flattening, so I'm unfamiliar with the DMT fine. It's about a 600 grit right?

I have the Naniwa SS 1000. It's my least favorite of the Super Stones, and it's hard to say why exactly. I guess I feel like it's just not quite as productive as it could be - just slow enough to be frustrating, same problem as my old King 4000 stone. In truth though, all the Super Stones are a tiny bit slow - I just find that I mind the slowness more in a 1000 grit stone. It's still a fine stone. But the take-home point is I wouldn't start out my progression with it unless I'm just touching up. If you have something coarser, it's a fine choice I think.

Super Stones tend to beget more Super Stones, because they need so little soak time. It can be a pain in the butt to start off your progression with something that needs a long soak. The Bester stones need a LONG soak. I don't know if that's gonna be an issue for you or not. If it is an issue, AND you don't have a coarser stone, it leaves you in a bit of a bind because the 1000 SS is not one I'd recommend as the first in a progression except for touch-ups, and it's also not aggressive enough to use to follow up really aggressive coarse starting stones (DMT XXC, Bester 500, most 220 grit stones). I like mine, but I've got a king 800 I can run a knife across if I need to. Obviously I gave up on soak-free sharpening for any time I want to reset a bevel or remove some nicks.

I have neither the Bester 1000 or 1200, but I've heard quite a bit about them. And I have the Bester 500 - I've heard the Besters are all pretty similar - slow wearing, fast-cutting, long soak times, mediocre polish for their grit. That is definitely how the 500 grit works for me. As far as I know, the 1200 is popular mostly because Dave uses it. He also uses a King 800, so I see no reason to believe that the 1000 is a bad stone, but rather that it doesn't fit his lineup and he is absurdly influential among waterstone users. If you don't mind the soak time for the Bester, I think either grit would transition well to a 2000 grit Super Stone. Also, I know some people do keep their Besters stored in water, but I haven't had the courage to do so, so I can't say whether it would have a negative effect. The Bester 1000 is gonna be the closest to a direct replacement for the DMT fine, of the stones you listed.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Cowboy,

Thanks. As always, you are very helpful. I like the Naniwa super stones you recommended. They give really nice polish finish and have a nice feedback. However, I feel they can be a bit "gummy". I am pretty sure that is not the correct term. Judging from my 2000 Naniwa SS, I also worry about the 1000 not being fast cutting enough. It is fine to have a slow cutting 5000 grit stone, but that would not be a good thing for a 500 grit stone.

I were so surprised that a lot of people are buying the Bester 1200 as opposed to the Bester 1000 from Mark Richmond (Chefknifetogo). I won't think these stones are made from entirely different technology, so I thought it is simply because of Dave Martell's influence.

To answer your question, these days I start with my maintenance/touchs-up sharpening with the 2000 grit or even 5000 grit stone. I think the DMT fine grit is close to that 600-750 Japanese grit stone.

Mark finally has the Tanaka Nakiri came in, so I am hoping to put in a new ~1000 stone to get that free shipping.

One question, how do you like your King stone compared to your Bester. I believe a King is faster wearing stone than a Bester, right? At the same time, some people believe a faster wearing/softer stone can give you a bit more feedback, no? Thanks.

[cowboyardee]

The king 800 is certainly much faster wearing than the Bester 500. The 500 feels like I'm sharpening on a hardened cinder block. No joke. But it cuts REALLY well and is giving me every indication that it will last for a LONG time. The 800 isn't my favorite stone, but it functions well in my lineup and I haven't felt much need to replace it. If it didn't seem to fit in between the Bester 500 and the SS 1000, I wouldn't bother using it. The extra feedback it gives is useful coming off the Bester just as insurance that I don't start working my way up the stones with a crap bevel.

As I've said. I haven't heard anything bad about the Bester 1000. As far as I know, it's just like the 1200 but a lower grit. Could be wrong.

As I've gone on with sharpening, I've found I just wouldn't like to be without a coarse stone. Maybe I'm not as good as I used to think I am, but I've had occasional problems with my edges after fast touch-ups starting with higher grits. I miss parts of the edge that way, it seems. I've also stopped touching up on a weekly basis, so that could have something to do with it. Depends on the knife too.

Not related, but it came up earlier in this thread:
I finally took the edge down on my CKK cleaver (to something like 10-12 deg per side) with the Bester 500. I don't remember planning it this way, but I must have been a little quick with my mid grit stones because I left the edge really coarse and aggressive - it still easily shaves but has A LOT of bite. I love using it now. A knife that large, thin, and sharp almost completely obliterates any feedback or resistance I get from food, so it really feels like food is obediently splitting itself before the knife touches it. Like magic. It's still not as comfortable as my nakiri or gyuto, but man, is it fun to use now.

Hope you like that Tanaka nakiri. Looks very nice.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Cowboy,

I am told there is no Bester 500, only Benton 500. I am not sure if they are made by the same company. I am trying to do touchs-up sharpening like once a week or once every two weeks.

I have put a 10/15 (back and edge bevels) on my CCK. I have tried to do just 10 degree bevel twice and both times the knife get small chips on the edge soon after, so I now assume that I need that tiny 15 degree micro/edge bevel.

Yes, the CCK is not a bad knife at all. I did not have high hope when I first bought it but it is pretty good. It does not have the same agilty as a gyuto because of the wide blade. It is fine to make a straight (up and down) cut, but it is challenging to make any curve or around the corner cut, say taking the skin of a melon or cutting a bone out of a meat. Now that I think about it more. You have an even larger CCK knife than mine. Yours must be very difficult to navigate. Anyhow, my CCK holds its edge as good as my Tojiro DP gyuto, if not a touch better.

*Edit* Now that I looked at Dave Martell's lineup again, I think I understand why he may like the Bester 1200. That is because he has a King 800 as you mentioned, so a Bester 1200 makes more sense than a Bester 1000.

[cowboyardee]

Anywhere I've said Bester 500, you can just insert Beston or Benton 500. This thing:
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/beston5...
I believe they are the same company, but I'm not positive. At any rate, the 500 is said to be similar in character to the Bester 1000 and 1200.

Now that I think of it, another reason that the 1200 may be more popular is that the Besters are said to perform like slightly lower grits than they are. It might act more like the average 1000 grit stone than the Bester 1000. Again, I'm speculating to a point.

Yes, my CCK is very big. I don't use it for anything but vegetable prep so far. No issues with chips for me (except when I abused the crap out of it, as mentioned upthread). I don't know if that's because I've been gentle or if the big reprofiling job I did to take the edge down and remove the big chips I made before exposed a tougher edge. I'll update in time.

[smkit]

Well, I really like my Bester 1200, but with that said if I were in your shoes, I might just stick with the Naniwa series. I also thought I read once that Naniwas were better used in a series, but that may have been the Chocera series. Do you have a stone under 1000k?

Anyhow, here is a thread from knifeforums you may find interesting (if you haven't found it already).

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/sho...

[Chemicalkinetics]

Hi Smkit,

If you really like your Bester, then what is your reasoning for me to stick with Naniwa super? Just curious. You are not jealous that I will bond with your 1200 Bester, are you? Just kidding.

I don't have a water stone under 1000K, but I do have a DMT XXC, DMT XC, and DMT Fine, and these have grit lower than 1000K. I usually don't use these stones for regular touchs-up. I remember you have a Benton 500, right? I may get one someday because I heard it is better than these DMT stones. Not sure.

Thanks.

[smkit]

Good question. First of all, I just thought that if you like the feel of your Naniwa SS series then there is a good chance you will like the 1k too. Also, I had that idea in my head about some stones work together better in a series and I thought Naniwa was one of those brands (BUT I could be wrong on this). And lastly, after reading a list of what Dave Martell uses for different types of knives, I kind of relaxed my idea of finding the perfect stone. My skills aren't that great to really feel the difference at this point.

Here is the post. http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/sho...

Anyhow, with that said, I do like the feel of my Bester 1200 and I think you wouldn't be disappointed. With that said, I haven't used my stones on a lot of variation of steels so far or different type of bevels. I am taking it rather slowly while I build up my muscle memory and skills.

[cowboyardee]

As someone with a Bester 1200, does my second-hand description sound accurate - fast cutting, slow wearing, long soaking? That's what I've heard, and that definitely describes the 500.

[smkit]

Yep. So far that is my experience too. I just keep my bester and Takenoko it soaking all the time. I also just got a Beston 500 but have yet to use it. I plan on doing some reprofiling with it in a couple weeks.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Smkit,

Thanks. Naniwa SS has a good feel, but I am also not too picky. I think I even like my older Steelex (very loose and soft) stone as well. The good thing about a soft stone is that when you grind/cut just at the correct angle, it just shaves across the stone and it gives a distinctive feel -- maybe I imagine it. I don't know.

I have heard that some stones play nice with others, but I don't think my skill is great enough to notice minor differences. I think I may just get the Bester 1000 now.

Thanks.

[smkit]

Why waste the opportunity to get two stones: a Bester 700 and Bester 1200?

Just kidding (sort of). I've spent too much on knife related stuff in the last 5 months. I need a break, and I say that with two custom cutting boards coming in...

[Chemicalkinetics]

:)

Too bad. I just ordered my Tanaka Kurouchi Nakiri and Bester 1000X stone.

Smkit, I know your buddy is a culinary student. What about you if you don't mind me asking. Are you a chef as well? Or you just like knives like the rest of us :) It is my little hobby too.

By the way, I really think a good (not necessary expensive) cutting board/surface is underrated. I have switched from my end grain tree trunk chopping block to a thin Sani-tuff rubber cutting board for almost a month. For some reasons, both my Tojiro gyuto and my CCK went dull much faster on the Sani-tuff rubber board. At first, I thought I were imagining, so I took my wood chopping block out on this weekend and noticed my knives stayed sharp on the wood block.

[smkit]

Nope. Not a chef. Love knives, cooking, food, traveling....

I used to work abroad in conflict zones and got into food while spending time in many different countries. Now I am in the process of starting a kitchenware store.

[cowboyardee]

Always happy to see a kitchenware store run by someone who actually knows kitchenware. Good luck to you.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Good to know. Best wishes to your kitchenware store.

[smkit]

Thanks a lot.

[Caroline1]

Ahhhh,
CK, you dear guy, I just dicovered this thread (5 July '11) and now I'm wondering if all you do all day is sharpen knives? Do you ever cook? '-)

[Chemicalkinetics]

:P

Yeah, I do cook. In all honesty, I used to want to maintain that super near perfect blade and I sharpen my knives more than once a week. Now, I sharpen them maybe once a month.

Just read all the other replies, many of them have invested more time, effect and money in sharpening than I do

[Eiron]

Said the man with OCKSD...
:-D

[Chemicalkinetics]

:P

But I am cured -- notice the duration between my sharpening sessions is getting longer and longer. Cured!!! (maybe "recovered" is the more appropriate term)

[cowboyardee]

Ironically, I'm now sharpening more often, trying to see how well I can maintain a very fine edge with frequent touchups on a no-soak 8k stone and stropping. Only takes a minute or two per knife and seems to be working pretty well for me, though the edge seems to start skating on food more than I like after the first couple touchups. I'm always changing up my routine or progression to try different things out though.

"Just read all the other replies, many of them have invested more time, effect and money in sharpening than I do"
______
Did you just throw me under the bus? :P

[Chemicalkinetics]

"Ironically, I'm now sharpening more often..."

Yeah, but you are also doing so at shorter duration too. I am also trying to the same with just the 5000 grit stone without going back to 2000 stone and certainly not the 1000 stone. By the way, I like the Naniwa Super stones you have suggested. They are really not expensive considering their sizes. I have lengthened my sharpening duration mostly because I don't push the limit of the knife bevel angle anymore. For example, I backed away from sharpening the Tojiro and CCK at ~10-12o and resorted back to ~15o.

"Did you just throw me under the bus? :P"

When the bus get too heavy, someone has to get off, no? Take one for the team (just like Butters from South Park).
:P

I am still thinking if I need to go above 5000, but I don't think any of my knives deserve a 10,000 grit stone, and without going to up above 5000, I see few reasons to do the charged stropping.

[Caroline1]

CK, you and the rest of the guys here have shown me a whole new side of the food world I never imagined existed. For years I've endured friends and family telling me I'm "over the top" and obsessive compulsive because I steel my knives every time I take them out of the block. But the ONLY whetstone/wetstone/waterstone I've ever owned was one I inherited from my grandfather that he used for his straight edged razor, but he shaved his FACE with that, not peaches. To wear a whetstone out in less than a lifetime is mind blowing for me! Mind boggling. But to maybe offer something that you may all be too young to ever have heard of, on those occasions when my grandfather used a double edged razor blade in his gorgeously crafted flawlessly mechanical safety razor, when those blades were dulled, instead of putting in a new blade, he took the old one out and sharpened it by pushing it round and round inside a very straight sided two or three inch diameter glass tumbler he kept in the medicine cabinet for that exclusive use. A box of six Gillette double edged razor blades would last him a year. He shaved daily. Did you know you can put a new edge on things using glass?

Me? As long as I can slice, dice, carve and flute I'm happy. I did once buy a ceramic "sharpening steel" for my knives. Paid a pretty penny for it. Gave it to my daughter when she grew up after it sat in its walnut case in my kitchen drawer for a decade or so. My ancient sharpening steel (it began life in the hands of my great grandfather) puts a lovely burr on my knives and they slice as if the world was made of room temperature butter. I wonder what ever happened to my grandfather's whetstone? It might still be at the back of my kitchen junk drawer. I can't imagine wearing it down in a year!

A whole new world... Is there such a thing as KSA? Knife Sharpeners Annonymous? Is it a twelve step program? How many knives do you wear out in a year if you wear out your whet/wet/waterstones in that time or less? Amaaaaaaazing! '-)

[Chemicalkinetics]

"To wear a whetstone out in less than a lifetime is mind blowing for me"

Caroline,

These are waterstones, so they are softer. In addition, I wasn't just doing normal sharpening. I was putting new bevel to experiment, so that put more stresses on the stones.

Yes, I have almost worn out a stone, but not yet a knife. :)

I know you love sushi, so I will throw this in. Sushi chefs sharpen their knives on a daily basis (usually during evening after work). They keep the knives extremely sharp at all time so to make the best sushi cut. They sharpened these very so thoroughly that they would wear these thousand dollars knives out in a few years. A fellow CHOWHOUND (la2tokyo) has reiterate his experience as a sushi chef as well:

"I started out with one deba, usuba, and yanagi that were all the cheap masamoto kasumi series. I used them for about four years. They were already about 20% ground away when I got them, and I used them until they were too short to sharpen. Any time you use a knife until it's completely worn away you have done a lot of hard work and hopefully learned a lot about cooking. For that reason those knives have a lot of sentimental value to me. I still pull them out once in a while even though they're less than half as long as they used to be and practically impossible to use."

"When it got too short I replaced the hassouuchi yanagi with two hon yaki gyoukuhakukou that I rotate. I use the yanagi for six hours at a time."

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/7580...

[cowboyardee]

"and without going to up above 5000, I see few reasons to do the charged stropping."
____
I spent a long time finishing at 6k then stropping on bare leather. When I finally charged my strop with green crayon chrome ox, I noticed an immediate improvement without any higher grit stone. And green crayon isn't even supposed to be all that great of a compound, though sadly I haven't yet tried anything else.

[Chemicalkinetics]

"And green crayon isn't even supposed to be all that great of a compound, though sadly I haven't yet tried anything else."

I can imagine a coarser charged compound is better for a blade that is finished from a 5000-6000 grit stone.

"Give myself up to NAMBLA? I'm pretty sure they wouldn't be interested in me."

Wow, you know that episode. Good. :) I haven't watched all the recent South Park. I need to do my homeworks.

[petek]

Hey cowboy.
What do you mean by "skating on food"? Is the blade too sharp?
I thought about getting a 8k or 10k grit stone,currently using 1000&6k+old leather belt,with great results but I'm always thinking I could do better.

[cowboyardee]

I misspoke a bit - i've never felt the edge slip on the surface of food, as 'skating' would imply. It just slices a bit less aggressively.

I've heard people say that when they sharpen up to a high grit that their edges lose the "bite" they may have had at a lower grit - basically, that finer scratch patterns leave smaller microscopic teeth on the edge than coarser stones and that larger teeth cut into food very aggressively with any slicing motion in a way that a finer grit sharpening does not. In theory.

You ever hear of Murray Carter's "3 finger test"? It measures the edge's "bite."

In practice, I sharpen most nicer knives to an 8k edge (then a loaded strop). When I start from lower grits and work my way up, my knives fresh off the stones typically still have quite a lot of bite to their edge while at the same time perform well push-cutting - they shave well and can push cut a tomato skin without denting.

However, when I do multiple touchups with an 8k stone and nothing lower, my edges seem to lose that 'bite' that I've grown accustomed to. If I had to guess what's happening, i'd say that the initial sharpening is not fully removing some of the coarser scratches from lower grit stones, but the touchups are. And/or I'm probably convexing the edge on a microscopic level. The tradeoff is that it's easy to keep a knife absurdly sharp this way for a fairly long time with minimal wear to the steel. It push-cuts as well or better than it did initially for several touchups, but it slices just a little bit less aggressively.

As for whether I recommend a higher grit stone... maybe. They can improve initial sharpness, but the higher you go, the faster you'll notice the extra benefit disappearing with use. 8k feels 'right' to me in terms of benefit vs extra cost and effort (I have a 12k stone I use much less often), but if you ask me again in a month, who know's what I'll say then. Only way to know what feels right to you, unfortunately, is to try it.

If you're looking for the best bang for your buck, I'd say to get some stropping compound first - you might be surprised at how much difference that can make.

[petek]

Thanks cowboy. The only stopping compound I can find locally is from Lee Valley Tools. $12.00 for a 6oz bar of Veritas honing compound.Any thoughts?

[Chemicalkinetics]

Update.

I bought a DMT extra-extra coarse diamond stone 8" plate, an inexpensive stone holder, a 2000 grit and 5000 grit Naniwa Super stones. The DMT and stone holder came in two days ago and the Naniwa stones came in this evening.

The extra-extra coarse diamond stone is not cheap (~$70), but it is all worth. I were spending hours and hours on my Tojiro usuba using an extra coarse DMT diamond stone. Every time I tried to put a new edge on, it took a couple of hours using the extra coarse stone. So I finally decided to go for the extra-extra. The extra-extra coarse diamond stone does help a lot. What took an hour becomes minutes. I say it save at least 10X of my time. I wonder if there are any coarse water stone which works as great as the DMT extra-extra coarse stone. If not, then I wonder how people used to do put a brand new bevel on these hard steel Japanese knife.

The $15-16 SteeleX stone holder works out fine. Twisting the nuts takes some time. Often, I simply slapped the holders against the stones without tighten the nuts.

The two Naniwa super stones seem very good. Thanks Cowboy. I love the size. It does not require soaking. They are soft stones, but not as soft as my previous stone. They give a nice feedback and allow me to find the right sharpening angle.

This evening, I worked on my usuba - just to test the stones. The workflow is DMT extra-extra coarse stone -> DMT extra coarse -> DMT fine -> Naniwa 2000 grit -> Naniwa 5000 grit. The edge seems good, but there are many scratches on the bevel which I cannot get rid off. I am afraid the "DMT fine stone -> Naniwa 2000 grit" is too big of a jump. Last night I were able to remove the diamond stone scratches using a 1000/6000 water stone. In term of the cutting edge, the Naniwa 2000/5000 may have produced a better cutting edge than my old 1000/6000. This may be because the Naniwa stones are simply better or because the 1000->6000 is too big of a jump and the 6000 stone just cannot effectively clean up after 1000 stone.

In short, my previous 1000->6000 transition may be the weak point and my current DMT fine->Naniwa 2000 transition may be the problematic point. I may have no choice but to get another 1000 grit stone :)

Thanks guys.

P.S.: I bought another CCK Chinese Chef knife from Mark (Chefknviestogo). This time he checked out the knife before sending to me. The knife is perfect, no cracked wood handle or nicked and bended blade.

[smkit]

I have the 8-inch extra, extra coarse DMT Dia-sharp whetstone, but I bought it as a flattener. I am a noob to water stones and hand sharpening, but I finally have all my kit and will start sharpening in mid-May. Anyhow, the DMT seems pretty rough compared to all the other stones I have (1500 grit) is the most coarse I have. Is this the same item? It looks like a metal plate.

On the back of the box it had check marks for use and recommends it for: Water stone (flattening), Axe, and a Slick. I am just making sure that this is the same item.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Smkit,

Yes, we have the same stone. It is a 8" long metal plate with diamond surface on one side and smooth surface on the other side. I partially bought it to lap/flat my water stones. Though my main objective is to reprofile knife bevel. My extra coarse DMT stone (220 grit US) seems to be very efficient until my Tojiro usuba, so I bought this extra-extra coarse stone (120 grit US).

Yes, the DMT extra extra coarse stone is very rough and aggressive. Your 1500 grit water stone (if Japanese scale) is about the same as the DMT extra fine stone.

http://users.ameritech.net/knives/gri...

I am also learning about knife sharpening. So what other stones do you have?

[smkit]

My other stones are:

Bester 1200
Synthetic "Blue" Aoto 2000-3000
Takenoko 8000

I'm thinking about the Suehiro Rika 5000 too, but I'll start off with these three. I also have a felt strop with the blue diamond spray.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Very nice setup. Your setup will produce a very fine edge. I have seen these stones from Dave Martell's store.

http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningsto...

Dave highly recommend the Suehiro Rika 5000. I thought about getting it just a few days ago, but it was sold out. I think you should able to go from your Aoto 2000-30000 grit stone to Takenoko 8000 without much trouble, so you may not need the Suehiro Rika 5000.

I do want to reiterate scubadoo's point. The DMT extra extra coarse stone (aka 8XXC) is very effective in metal removal, but it is very coarse and very aggressive, so you will need to progressively move up stones. Your Bester 1200 probably will not be an effective stone to work right after the DMT XXC stone. If you plan to use the DMT XXC stone as a stone flattener, then you are fine. If you want to use the 8XXC to reprofile your knives, then you will need another stone before the Bester 1200.

e.g: DMT XXC -> ? -> Bester 1200.

Please update your experience. Although I have read great things about your stones, I have never worked with these, so I will be interested to know your experience.

[smkit]

Yeah, I can't wait to start using them. I bought Dave's sharpening DVD, so after I watch that, I will hit the stones. I also got some practice knives so I don't need to worry about messing up any of the nice stuff.

As for a lower grit stone, I was thinking of getting the Beston 500, but for now that is on hold. If I don't control myself, my kitchen will be full of stones and steel.

[smkit]

By the way, I finally started sharpening and was poking around on Knifeforums (before and afterwards). Even though Dave Martell uses a DMT XXC in his sharpening video, he no longer uses it. Apparently, cracks started appearing in the blade. Just FYI.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Smkit,

Thanks for the information. I have used the DMT XXC a few times, but cannot say for sure it causes crack. In my cases, I did not see cracks during the sharpening process, but I had seen chips after using the knife a few times. Even then, it only happened once, so it is tough for me to say what caused the chips. Good to know that the DMT XXC may weaken the edge. Still, it is my only solution to reprofile a thick blade knife.

What do people use in place of DMT XXC? Thanks.

[cowboyardee]

I have used a DMT XXC on knives and never noticed any cracks forming after using it. Dave sharpens far more knives than I do though, so I would probably take his word for it.

However, I too have stopped using the XXC on knives for other reasons -

a) it doesn't seem to cut all that much faster than some of the coarse stones I have (beston 500 or a cheap 240 grit 2-sided LUCCA stone I got a while ago).
b) it leaves much deeper scratches than the coarse stones which are a bitch to remove, and can leave sort of a jagged edge (microchips or just deep scratch pattern?) if I'm not really thorough with the next stone in the progression
c) i prefer to save the much more expensive DMT xxc for flattening. And...
d) I now have access to a belt sander for any really huge jobs.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Cowboy,

In that case, maybe I need to get myself a beston 500 then. I have not had any good way to grind a thick blade knife. My DMT XC stone does not cut fast enough when compared to the XXC one.

I don't have a belt sander. Man, so many tools to get :)

[cowboyardee]

Honestly, I just as much rely on avoiding any huge reprofiling jobs as I rely on actually using the belt sander.

I do recommend the beston 500 though. great stone. Cuts a lot faster than you'd think a 500 grit stone would.

[smkit]

First a point of clarification. Martel still uses the DMT just not for sharpening as he once did.

I loved the DMT as a flattener. It took me a few times to get it down and avoid it sticking to the stone, but it worked like a charm.

I also think I am going to invest in a Beston 500, and then next on the wish list is a Naniwa 5000 splash-and-go for quick blade maintenance.

Btw, I just got in the new leather bench hone from Dave's site. It's pretty nice, though he has already sold out of them.

http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningsto...

[Chemicalkinetics]

Smkit

:-D

Dude, you have Synthetic "Blue" Aoto 2000-3000 and Takenoko 8000 already. Still thinking a Naniwa Super 5000 grit stone? I bought one based on cowboy's recommendation. It is a nice stone and inexpensive. Ok, it is not cheap, but it is a good size stone,

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/superstone5.html

so pound for pound, it is actually not expensive.

What about Suehiro Rika 5000 grit stone? Dave Martel loves that stone:

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/suri50g...

[cowboyardee]

How are you liking the Naniwa SS chem? hope it's treating you well.

I should note that one of the major downsides of the Beston 500 is that it needs a pretty long soak before using it. Having switched to a lot of naniwa stones that I can just spritz down with water and use, it's a pain in the ass and somewhat out of place in my lineup to have a long-soaking coarse stone as the first in my progression for a lot of jobs.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Cowboyardee,

Naniwa super stones work pretty good. I bought a Naniwa 2000 grit super stone to replace my old 1000 grit stone, so it is tough to do a direct comparison. Minimal soaking is nice. The stones feel slightly soft, so I can feel the knife shaving on top of the 2000 grit stone as I grind, which is great. I like the size too. The 5000 Naniwa super stone produces a very polished and shiny finished, much shiner than my old 6000 grit stone would. My old 6000 grit stone gives a foggy misty finish -- which can be artistic good too. Overall, I really like the two new stones.

For the Beston 500, it is a hard stone, right? A lot of people hate soft stones at low grit because they don't like to constantly lapping the stone while doing major knife reprofiling.

You are correct about having one stone which need long soak time. If 1 out of 5 stones need long soaking, we will still have to wait for that stone, especially if it is the first stone (coarse).

[cowboyardee]

It's very hard. Won't need lapping mid-job except in extreme situations.

Also, you can get around the soaking problem if it's feasible for you to just store the Beston in water. Unfortunately, I take mine on the road often and it's problematic for me to do so consistently.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Cowboy,

Thanks. You are of great help. How is everything? What knife is on your "next to purchase" list? Have you gotten used to that huge CCK knife yet? I don't think I will ever get used to it.

[cowboyardee]

I have gotten used to it I think. But I'm starting to think that the 18-20 degree per side i've been sharpening at is too steep for me to fully enjoy it - obtuse enough for it to feel a bit dull while I'm using it, but still too thin to bash through bones (i found that out while hacking apart a chicken carcass - trying to see how much the CCK could take). Initially i wanted to keep it low maintenance, but that strategy seems to have backfired in that I don't find myself reaching to use it as much as my sharper knives.

I intend to take the edge down a bit (maybe ~12 deg/side) and see how I like it then.

Don't have any real next up purchase for knives, but I'm always on the lookout for the Dojo paring knife, which i passed up on last time it was available.
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/dopakn8...

And if I ever see a decent-looking Usuba with the right price tag, I'll get it and learn to use it eventually.

You have your eye on anything in particular right now?

Edit: because of this post, I realised that the Dojo knife is again available. And ordered it. Thanks Chem. You rule.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Yeah, same here, I initially put a 20o edge bevel on my CCK, and I also didn't see it being much better than my Dexter-Russell Chinese chef's knife. Then, I put a 10o primary/15o edge and things work great. I find the knife can handle most daily jobs except like cutting chicken bones, but then I don't cut chicken bone very often and I have a real meat cleaver for that.

I don't know anything about Dojo. I will read up on it. Hey, I thought you are a stainless steel knife guy into VG-10 and stuffs.

As you know I have recently purchased an usuba and used it for katsuramuki. I will practice more. I accidentially grond the part of the bevel way too shallow. In otherwise, the knife bevel angle varies along the blade. The knife still works for katsuramuki but it is one ugly knife and reminds me of my mistake. It is beyond repair. The good thing is that it was a relatively inexpensive usuba at $80.

So, I am looking at two things. Either buy another usuba or buy a new gyuto. I do not have a gyuto, so I am leaning toward getting a stainless steel gyuto.

I need new knives to test my waterstones, you know.

[smkit]

I think my next knife is going to be the Kikuichi 240mm Gyuto. I've been following a thread on knifeforums and apparently Kikuichi has gone to the factory that produces the Ichimonji TKC and rebranded it. Chefknivestogo should have them in a couple of weeks. The original price is $210 for the Ichimonji, so it will be interesting to see what the price will be new brand. Of course there is the 5% discount for the knifeforums coupon which is nice.

I'll see what happens. I just got a Tojiro DP 240 last week and haven't had a chance to give it a good work out. Toys, toys, toys.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Knives and stones. Aren't they fun? :) I am sure you will have a lot of fun with yours. Ichimonji TKC , huh? I don't know much about them. What kind of steel are they made of? Chefknifetogo sometime does not have a lot of information. I think Mark assumes most of his customers are from knifeforums and sort of know all the background information.

Like I told cowboy, my next-to-acquire will be a gyuto too. I am not in a hurry. It is always so exciting to browse through Japanesechefsknife, Chefknifetogo, and many others. Just makes me.. happy.

:D

P.S.: Wish you had a great time in the wedding.

[smkit]

It is sort of strange, but Mark from CKTG inquired about the steel type and the manufacturer refused to tell him. Apparently the maker of Ichimonji is rather secretive. With that said, Mark admits in the thread that he likes some mystery to the blade steel. Maybe that is why there he puts less info on his site.

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/sho...

[Chemicalkinetics]

Smkit,

Maybe we don't know the exact formulation, but usually, they at least say something vague, like there is vanadium or tungsten or something. Since someone said this line of knife stains up easily, I assume it is carbon steel then.

[Eiron]

Don't forget about Mike's Tools! They have the large Suehiro 6000 grit stone for slightly less than CKTG:
http://www.mikestools.com/705-2040-Suehiro-Japanese-Wet-Stone-6000-Grit-Size-8-1-8-x-2-7-8-x-3-4.aspx

And I bought the 15% smaller version for 40% less than that:
http://www.mikestools.com/705-2010-Su...

I figger, since I'm only using it for polishing, I'm not going to wear it out all that fast. The only blade I'm using on it right now is the 8.3" Kanetsune, & so far I've only sharpened & polished it twice using very light strokes.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Greg (Eiron),

Oh yes, I forgot. Since you have actually used one, what is your thought on it? Is it a bit too hard, too soft? Does it require a long water soaking time?
Those two stones you mentioned from Mike's Tools may be differ by more than size. It appears they are different names. I may be wrong, but the larger one is called white mountain peak stone and smaller one is yellow beauty stone. And the one Dave Martel and Chefknifetogo one has another name. I don't know if the name variation matters or if they are just cool.

Smikt,

Either way, you should look into Suehiro as well because I heard it is pretty good. Not that I owe one. I just figure from your stone collection that you have a lot of Dave Martell's recommanded stoned, and this is the Suehiro stone is the one you are missing

:-P

[Eiron]

I can't say if it's too hard or too soft, since these two (1000 & 6000) are my first ever waterstones. IIRC, the 6000 requires very little soaking (maybe only "splashing"?), per the instructions. The 1000 suggests a minimum of 15 minutes soaking. I use very light pressure on each grit, so "feedback" is probably less for me than someone who's really bearing down on their stones.

Are you saying that the different names of the 6000 grit stones imply that they behave differently? (feedback and/or cutting?) Or possibly that they wear differently?

[Chemicalkinetics]

Hey Greg,

:) I don't know if the different names actually mean anything. It is possible that these stones are the same and the manufacturer simply wants to give them different names based on the size and grit.

I read Suehiro is on the softer side.

Many manufacturers make stones of different properties. Naniwa has Naniwa Super stones and Naniwa Chosea. Shapton has Shapton Professional and Shapton Glass. King has tons of lines. Suehiro has at least the Suehiro and Cerax. You may find the following link interesting:

http://www.fine-tools.com/suehiro-sto...

[cowboyardee]

Chem, I've used the suehiro 6000 stone - it was my go-to 6000 stone for a while after i started sharpening.

It is very soft. Quite easy to gouge if you're not paying attention. It probably only 'requires' a brief application of water, but for it to feel right to me, I found it needed at least 15 minutes of soaking. More is better. Otherwise it can feel very dry and grabby. Finish is okay for a 6000 stone, but it seems to cut pretty fast for its grit. It dishes moderately fast. I got to like its feedback, which may just be because it was the first medium-high grit stone I got used to.

It's apparently a very different beast from the suehiro 5000 grit stone that Dave Martell and the guys at knifeforums recommend and love. I haven't tried the 5000.

If you look around, you can find the 6000 for a pretty good price for a stone of that grit.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Cowboy,

Thanks. Do you remember iyour 6000 grit stone being yellow or white?

http://www.mikestools.com/705-2010-Suehiro-Japanese-Wet-Stone-6000-Grit-Size-7-3-4-x-2-3-8-x-5-8.aspx

http://www.mikestools.com/705-2040-Su...

I haven't tried the Suehiro Rika 5000 neither, but they seem to love it. Take care.

[cowboyardee]

It was and is white. Looks a little darker when wet. I suspect that first link looks tan just because of weird lighting (or maybe the smaller stone is deliberately colored darker), but I'm not positive. I know that I have the larger stone.

[smkit]

I've been offline at a wedding and missed a lot of stone talk.

I thought about the Suehiro Rika 5000 especially since Dave raves about it, but I also wanted one stone that I didn't need to soak and could do some quick blade maintenance.

[scubadoo97]

It's about as coarse as you will find. It will also leave some very nasty deep scratches which you will have to work with progressively finer stones to get rid of. This of course is necessary if you are thinning or reprofiling a knife. You can do it with a 8XC but it will take longer.

The 8XXC is used a lot for flattening as well

[MarkR37]

Hi Richard,

I just wanted to pop in and say hello and thanks for the kind words. I hope you enjoy the cleaver and stones.

Mark
Chefknivestogo

[Chemicalkinetics]

The pleasure is mine, Mark. I am very happy with my purchase. Please stop by often to say hi. We usually have knife question under the cookware section and you will be of great help with your knife knowledge.

Now that I am not Mr. XXXX no more. I wonder what Paulustrious will think of me. :)

[Eiron]

Dude, I've been waiting to find out the identity of The Mysterious Mr. XXXX for months! Now all I need is your eddress & my diabolical spam-plan will be complete!

BWA-HA-HA-HA !!!

[Chemicalkinetics]

Ha ha. Yeah, right.

So how have your sharpening stones been treating you? What about your two Kanetsune knives? Did you manage to sell one of them?

[Eiron]

Hey Chem,
Sorry I didn't see this before.
The stones are working well. I went back over the one Kanetsune I've been using & was able to improve the edge a bit.
I've got the other Kanetsune on CL right now. Don't know how long it'll take to sell, but I don't mind waiting. I need to sell the Henckels, too.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Greg,

I may have my memory mixed up (and too lazy to track down all the old post), but didn't you say you are giving the Henckels to your kids? Plan changed? I don't think you can get that much from your Henckel which you bought for $40. You probably will get what? $20?

[Eiron]

Richard,
Yeah, I think I did say I was going to give it to one of the kids. But then I bought a Forschner Rosewood santoku & Victorinox parer for each of them. My son just got his own appartment, so I'm sending his off this weekend or next. My daughter will get hers when she moves into her own place.
If I can sell my unused Henckels for $40-$45, I'll be happy & someone will get a great deal. It's still selling for $95 at Amazon.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Eiron,

SomehowI thought you have used your Henckels and sharpened it. As a new knife, you have a good chance getting it off your hand at $40-45, especially if the knife is in the original package. Best.

[Caroline1]

Mark, I've just spent several hours pouring over your website. You obviously have a vibrant clientel! I am curious though... Other than maybe an occasional celebrity chef such as Masiharu Morimoto or Wolfgang Puck who may actually use them, do real people ever cut anything with them? Or are high end customers more like stamp collectors? Do people horde them in display cases and occasionally offer them at auction? Do they loose value if used?

Great website.

[knet]

Looks like a relapse, CK!!! OCKSD still has you in it's grip!

[Chemicalkinetics]

knet,

I know. Having medicore sharpening skill also makes it worse. I have been sharpening my Tojiro usuba over and over and over again. At first, it is about getting it a bit sharper. Then the edge started to curve and bend. Ever since, I am trying to get that nice straight edge. It is still not straight. I will spend some more time tomorrow. The knife is difficult to sharp that even a DMT coarse diamond stone barely able to shave metal from it.

[scubadoo97]

Chem, have you posted your problems with the usuba to FF or KF?

[Chemicalkinetics]

No, but the problem may not be as horrible as I once thought. At the time I were writing the email. I gauge the flatness of the usuba by putting it on top of my counter. Later I found out the counter is not as flat as I thought.

The knife is still not flat, but it wasn't as bad as I thought. I thought I seriously messed it up. It seems I may able to get it back.

After I get the knife flat (flat enough), then I will do the Katsuramuki. Who knows it may be all for nothing, maybe I just don't have the skill for Katsuramuki. I will find out :)

[Chemicalkinetics]

Any recommendation for a stone holder?

What about these:

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/to1.html
http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningsto...

Not looking for any fancy stone holder, just a good one which can hold the stone swell and grip the counter. Thanks.

[scubadoo97]

I use the cheapo double rod one shown with the one Dave sales. For about $15-19 it does the job. I made a sink bridge by placing my stone holder on an old thin cutting board that was no longer being used. This bridges my double sink and allows for frequent stone and knife wash down and keeps the mess at the sink. The sink faces a window so there is plenty of light as well.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Thanks Scubadoo. You know. That double rod one is the one I had in mind.

It is this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Steelex-D1091-S...

Thanks.

[scubadoo97]

That be the one!

[scubadoo97]

Dave does have a good selection of stones that when used together can make a great system. I opted for the Shapton glass stones when he use to carry them. Pros-compact, they are thin and light so they are easy to store or travel with. Low maintenance-splash and go stones that wear very slowly and require very little flattening. They also don't make mud (a pro and a con depending). They cut fast but leave a nicer finish when compared to stones of similar grit size. Cons- "Very little feedback" but for me it's all I've ever used so I don't know the difference that's why it's in quotations. It's just what I've heard.

[jaykayen]

I LOVE my Choceras... they cut really fast. Honestly, I haven't tried many others, though...

I'd go with Dave's suggestions if money is an issue.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Thanks. I heard a lot of good things about Choceras, especially about they have better feedback than the Sharpton Pro. They are expensive through. The Naniwa Super Stones, suggested by cowboy, do look good through. The Suehiro Rika 5000x suggested by Dave also looks great. Well, I still have some time before my current stone run out, so I don't have to make decision at this very moment. Jay, what is your highest grit stone? I am thinking about topping my set at 6000-8000.

[jaykayen]

3000.

[cowboyardee]

I've become a big fan of the naniwa superstones.
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/superst...

They aren't the cheapest option that will get the job done, but they are the best priced of the premium stones.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Hi Cowboy,

Yes, I heard about these stone, but I don't know much about them. I saw them on Chefknifetogo a few weeks ago as well. Back then, the Chosera stones were "Coming Soon", now they are here. Am I correct that the Naniwa Superstones require no water soaking? Are they very hard or will they provide decent feedback to your hands? Can I ask you why you like the Naniwa? Is it because they put a good edge, they grind fast, or they provide good feedback to the user? I agree. They are actually reasonably priced compared to Chosera. Thanks.

[cowboyardee]

They need to be splashed, but they don't need soaking. This has become an enormous upside for me, as I don't have to plan ahead at all to touch up a knife - I can just do it when I feel like it. Obviously, for one with Obsessive Compulsive Knife Sharpening Disorder, this may be a double edged sword.

I have a 1k, 5k, and 12k. The 5k and 12k especially are great stones - great feedback on the 12k. The finish on the 5k feels higher, but it cuts as fast as other stones in this range. The 1k is great too, but it seems to need flattening more often than I'd like. All of them provide great finishes for their respective grits without sacrificing speed or feel.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Cowboy,

I think I will be getting the Naniwa stones. I have a fine and a extra coarse DMT stone. So, I am planning to get the Naniwa Super Stone 2000 Grit and the 8000 Grit stone. Should I get a 5000 Grit stone to bridge them?

I were thinking about 1000, 3000, 8000, but then I figure that going from DMT fine stone to Naniwa 2000 Grit stone makes more sense.

Others,

What do you use to reprofile knives? I had been using the DMT extra coarse stone and it has been very efficient until the Tojiro Usuba. That single bevel knife has so much metal that I have to grind for hours and hours. The knife is also eating up my waterstone fast, which is why I have to buy new stones. That usuba probably has chewed up as much of my current waterstone in 1 week as all my other knives combined in the last 6 months. Of course, I never had to grind for hours for any of my other knives. Thanks.

[cowboyardee]

Depends on how much money you have I guess. I've heard it suggested that ideally, your stone progression should double in grit size (or less than double) with each jump. Practically, I have found that making larger jumps works fine, but that you often have to work that higher stone a bit more - perhaps a less efficient use of your time. But if you don't mind that, you should still be able to get great results going from 2000 to 8000 grits. That's not too bad a jump anyway and I spent a long time jumping from 1000 to 6000 with no real problems at all.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Thanks. Currently, my combination stone is 1000/6000 and I notice that I spent a lot of time to grind on the 6000 stone because 6000 is too gentle and smooth to even out the surface from 1000. 2000 to 8000 is a better jump, but I will think about this. Maybe I will get a 2000 stone and a 5000 stone first and if I need a 10000 stone later.

[Eiron]

Hi Chem, I don't know which stones you're looking at from Dave's. I found the best buys over at Mike's Tools:
http://www.mikestools.com/Sharpening-...

I got two separate Suehiro stones, a 1000 & a 6000, for about the same price ($45) as a combo stone. However, for someone with OCKSD, ceramics might make a better investment. ;-)

I like the Spyderco medium grit ceramic I bought. I've used it to put a convex bevel onto a cheap Farberware paring knife with relative ease. If you go with ceramic, I'd recommend getting both the Spyderco medium & fine grit large bench stones. I'm still using my fine grit ceramic rod & it's impossible to finish the convex bevel with it.

[Chemicalkinetics]

Eiron,

:) Yes, in theory, a ceramic stone is a better investment for someone with OCKSD, but I THINK ceramic stones are harder and do not provide the same feedback to the user as a softer stones. I could be wrong though. Thank for the information on Mike's Tools. I didn't know about that site.

I were looking at the Bester 1200 stone and the Suehiro 5000 stone from Dave's website:
http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/Bester-1200-Sharpening-Stone-p/bstr1200.htm
http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningsto...

[The Loaf]

With all the knife threads here, I'm sure you know about the knifeforums site. Here's a link to one of their countless sharpening threads, as well as Dave's recommended set of stones (at bottom of page). Another option--theoretically longer lasting, though I haven't used them myself--is the Shapton GlassStones, available many different places, but one of them being www.chefknivestogo.com . Hope it helps.

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/sho...

[Chemicalkinetics]

Thanks Loaf. Yeah, I know about the knifeforums. Yeah, I notice Dave's recommendation. It is the same list he had on his own website. I don't think I will like the Glass Stones due to its hardness. I believe they are very hard. I prefer some feedback to my hands.