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What's your latest food project?


outrig8 Feb 12, 2010 09:04 AM

So there isn't really a genuine Jewish deli in SF, or really the Bay Area outside Saul's (though mediocre at best). Do you still get your deli favorites piece-meal? Where do you go for pastrami, good rye, babka, etc?

  1. Robert Lauriston Feb 12, 2010 09:57 AM

    Niman navel pastrami. Pure Grain, Esther's German. Acme makes a good corn rye but I'm not sure which days of the week.

    Pure Grain Bakery
    600 Eubanks Ct Suite A, Vacaville, CA

    Esther's German Bakery
    987 N San Antonio Road, Los Altos, CA 94022

    Esther's German Bakery
    570 Showers Dr, Mountain View, CA

    Pure Grain Bakery
    11 Town Sq, Vacaville, CA 95688

    1 Reply
    1. re: Robert Lauriston
      Dave.Pitinga May 26, 2010 01:55 PM

      Recently, the NYT ran an article describing lye-dipped pretzels/rolls: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/dining/26pretzel.html . Though more Germanish than Jewish, I suspect that Esther's laugenbrezen (http://www.esthersbakery.com/products... ) are as good, if not better, than the ones described in that article. If I'm not mistaken, lye is also one of the ingredients in kansui, which is often used to make ramen noodles.

    2. d
      DavidT Feb 12, 2010 10:18 AM

      House of Bagels makes a good rye bread in 3 varieties (plain, corn & marble).

      Geary Blvd. between 14th & 15th Avenues, SF

      1. jillyju Feb 12, 2010 10:24 AM

        As referenced by Robert Lauriston, Niman pastrami is good. I get my fix of it at Saul's, actually. Bagels from House of Bagels. Lox--well, nothing is really right, but the wild salmon lox from Trader Joe's is tolerable. Babka I wait until I'm back east for, and that's true for lots of the rest. A few things I make myself (noodle kugel in the freezer right now, for example) but that doesn't really answer your question!

        1. wolfe Feb 12, 2010 10:38 AM

          Robert's Meat at 1030 Bryant. You have to finish it yourself but 5lbs of pastrami from "da Bronx" will cost about $30.

          Oh yes and cold smoked salmon from La Bedaine, Berkeley.

          1. Melanie Wong Feb 13, 2010 04:15 PM

            Not parts and pieces, but you should check out the pastrami sandwich at The Refuge in San Carlos. I'm a big fan of Katz's in NY, and I think that the pastrami here is equally good in its own way. Here's the photo.

            15 Replies
            1. re: Melanie Wong
              OldTimer Feb 13, 2010 08:27 PM

              I think a significant difference in pastrami here and in NY, most good NY delis steam the entire pastrami clod before slicing. Here, it is usually sliced and then steamed...seems to make a difference.

              1. re: OldTimer
                Melanie Wong Feb 13, 2010 09:26 PM

                The Refuge reportedly cures its own.

                A West Coast crime is to use beef round for dry lean meat. The Refuge uses navel cut.

                1. re: Melanie Wong
                  OldTimer Feb 14, 2010 11:21 AM

                  Yeah...I agree with your prejudices toward lean pastrami. Unfortunately, the anti-fat crusaders are ruining pastrami. Smart and Final carries both lean and fatty sliced pastrami. If I ever bought fatty, I would live in fear. Thank God there are places that respect navel cut and fatty.

                  1. re: Melanie Wong
                    Dave.Pitinga Feb 15, 2010 01:33 AM

                    Melanie, I used to love the pastrami at The Refuge, when it first opened. The pastrami was fatty in the best sort of way. Now it is extremely lean, which seems to be what the young people who frequent the restaurant prefer. Metroactive's Stett Holbrook characterized the current version as the leanest pastrami he had ever had: http://www.sanjose.com/dining-review-the-refuge-a24801 I agree. I had fattier pastrami at Subway the other day. And I don't know what to make of the "heart of the navel" doublespeak described in Stett's article. Supposedly this is "a small section of brisket". But everything I've read about good pastrami says that it is made from the plate, not the brisket: http://noshstalgia.blogspot.com/ Of course, even the current version of the pastrami at The Refuge is better than the Niman Ranch (sans Bill Niman who left the company in 2007) brisket that they sell as pastrami at Saul's (that bit about it being brisket is right off of Saul's menu). I like Saul's alot, as an experience restaurant. Where else can you get a Cel Rey? But let's not kid ourselves. Now that The Refuge has decided to go lean, there is probably only one great pastrami sandwich on the Left Coast. I've had the navel that they serve at Langer's in LA. Bacon is indeed the apt food metaphor: http://www.savethedeli.com/2007/10/

                    1. re: Dave.Pitinga
                      Melanie Wong Feb 17, 2010 03:42 PM

                      This was the saddest news I've read in quite a while. Have you tried asking for a fatty slice?

                      Yes, navel cut comes from the plate, but it's quite similar to brisket and in the neighborhhood.

                      1. re: Melanie Wong
                        Dave.Pitinga Feb 17, 2010 04:54 PM

                        Melanie, below is a sligthly redacted copy of the email I sent to The Refuge on December 23, 2008. I never heard back from them. Please note that this was well before your visit in March, 2009. So in all likelihood, you were eating the pastrami that we considered to be too lean. The photo you posted seems to corroborate that hypothesis. To me, the pastrami in that photo is very lean pastrami. In fairness to The Refuge, they stated early on (i.e., May 8, 2008) that they were having sourcing problems with respect to getting plate for their pastrami: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article... .

                        From: David Pitinga
                        Date: Tue, Dec 23, 2008 at 12:51 PM
                        Subject: Pastrami question
                        To: info@refugesc.com

                        Dear Refuge:

                        Your restaurant has become something of a destination restaurant for several of us over the last few months.

                        Recently, we have noticed that your pastrami is considerably leaner than the "heart of the navel" pastrami we enjoyed in our earlier visits. We much prefer the latter.

                        Is there some way we can order to ensure that we get the fattier pastrami, i.e., "make it fatty"? Or have you switched to leaner grades and/or preparations?

                        Thanks and happy holidays,
                        Dave Pitinga

                        1. re: Dave.Pitinga
                          Melanie Wong Feb 17, 2010 05:25 PM

                          Interesting. When I look at the larger size of that photo, i see fatty marbling shot through the open webby meat, much like Langers, and not the tight grain of lean meat. That's the beauty of the navel cut. When it's well-marbled, it can be sliced thick like this and still be easy to bite through. I agree that it is trimmed a bit too aggressively around the edges, I would prefer more of a fatty rim.

                          1. re: Melanie Wong
                            Dave.Pitinga Feb 17, 2010 05:47 PM

                            Trim is trim, but the pastrami we had was not particularly easy to bite through. That's why we sent the email. Anyhew, here's a related video posted on The Refuge's Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/video/?id=160... I do believe that a lot of The Refuge's customers would be happy with lean, long-steamed brisket, whether or not that's what's being served. Nouvelle pastrami.

                            1. re: Dave.Pitinga
                              Melanie Wong Aug 26, 2010 01:07 PM

                              Three days after we had this exchange, I got a pastrami sandwich to go from the Refuge.
                              Yes, I agree with you that this one was quite terrible. Dried out, devoid of flavor, tough.

                              1. re: Melanie Wong
                                Dave.Pitinga Aug 28, 2010 02:52 PM

                                Thanks for the update, Melanie. I don't know what's going on over there. They seem to be more interested in marcom than turning out good pastrami these days: http://refugesc.com/best-pastrami/ . I made it down to Langer's again last spring, where I indulged in some gluttony and had two No. 19's. I have yet to try Orson's in SF. Have you tried it?

                                1. re: Dave.Pitinga
                                  Melanie Wong Aug 28, 2010 09:50 PM

                                  Nope, haven't tried Orson's yet. Reports seem to be wide ranging.

                                  I posted on the housemade pastrami at Alexander's Steakhouse in Cupertino. That was my reminder that I hadn't gotten back to you about the Refuge.

                                  Alexander's Steakhouse
                                  10330 N. Wolfe Road, Cupertino, CA 95014

                      2. re: Dave.Pitinga
                        Robert Lauriston Feb 17, 2010 05:42 PM

                        I believe Wood Tavern's great pastrami is navel from Niman Ranch, so don't blame them for other places choosing to make it too lean.

                        1. re: Robert Lauriston
                          Dave.Pitinga Feb 17, 2010 08:11 PM

                          Robert, is Niman Ranch still making pastrami from navel, now that Bill Niman is raising goats? That's an open question in my mind. I don't think you can buy pastrami from their website any more. And Saul's recently dumped Niman Ranch, although the stated reason was sustainability: http://saulsdeli.com/deli/thoughts/

                          1. re: Dave.Pitinga
                            Dave.Pitinga Feb 17, 2010 08:26 PM

                            Behold the Langer's "bacon": http://newyork.seriouseats.com/images... It is instructive to compare that photo with Melanie's photo of The Refuge's pastrami.

                            1. re: Dave.Pitinga
                              Robert Lauriston May 27, 2010 12:15 PM

                              Wood Tavern's pastrami hasn't changed that I could tell.

                              Bill Niman is no longer involved with Niman Ranch. His current brand is BN Ranch.

                              Wood Tavern
                              6317 College Ave., Oakland, CA 94618

                  2. Windy Feb 14, 2010 11:32 AM

                    Yes, the first step is to accept there isn't any real Jewish deli and find the best of what's here.

                    Marin Sun Farms has pastrami you can heat at home. It's not Katz's, but it's awfully good. I love the corned beef from John Campbell's Irish bakery. Haven't made it to the Refuge yet.

                    On the same block of Geary as John Campbell's is New World Grocery, a Russian store with lots of great pickles and meats and traditional breads. The half-sours in the back case are perfect and inexpensive.

                    I'm not ordinarily a rye fan, but I like the taste (if not the fluffy texture) of Cinderella's rye (widely sold in the Richmond). Still looking for a great dark pumpernickel.

                    Holy Land on College in Berkeley has a healthier version of theJewish food that reminds me of what I ate growing up in NY and South Florida. The mixed Israeli salad plate is great.

                    I had amazing chocolate babka from Pal's Takeaway.

                    1 Reply
                    1. re: Windy
                      Dave.Pitinga Feb 15, 2010 12:23 PM

                      Windy, I strongly agree with your recommendation of New World Grocery on Geary. The food there is probably more industrial than artisanal. But it is undeniably authentic and they give away lots of freebies from their large selection of Eastern European style deli meats. New World Grocery might be the best "Slavic" shop/store in the Bay Area, though a Slavic shop (think Russian salad, dressed herring, and salmon caviar) is not really a Jewish deli. But there does seem to be a lot of overlap in this neck of the woods.

                    2. The Librarian Feb 15, 2010 08:24 AM

                      I've always thought Saul's was pretty mediocre. I'm a fan of Miller's East Coast West Deli on Polk St. in San Francisco. I've been getting their smoked whitefish plate every time I go, and it's really yummy! My mother (older critical Jewish type) is a fan of their pastrami (can't remember how fatty it was). FWIW, my late Hundarian Jewish father once got into a fight with his waiter at Saul's because he thought the pastrami was too lean!

                      1. o
                        outrig8 Feb 18, 2010 10:05 AM

                        Does anybody know a local butcher where navel can be purchased?

                        2 Replies
                        1. re: outrig8
                          Melanie Wong Feb 18, 2010 10:07 AM

                          Mi Pueblo in East Palo Alto has it labeled as "suadero". You can also purchase it from some Chinese butchers.

                          Mi Pueblo
                          1731 E Bayshore Rd, East Palo Alto, CA 94303

                          1. re: outrig8
                            sugartoof May 27, 2010 02:56 AM

                            The above mentioned Robert's.

                          2. c
                            Chefanie Aug 28, 2010 07:16 PM

                            I can't belive,unless I missed it, that no one has mentioned Moysha's Pippick on Hayes Street. I just had a pastrami sandwich that was as good as I used to get in Hollywood (when it was still jewish). Their brisket is amazing and their chopped liver is pretty darn good (not as good as my Grandma's, of course). Its not fancy but who cares? Price range is pretty modern. Meaning that is is about 11.00 w/ tax for a cornbeef.. but its a huge amount of lean, but not too lean meat. Gotta Try it.

                            1. s
                              stanbee Aug 28, 2010 08:53 PM

                              Great imported East Coast Jewish style Rye, Marbled Rye, Pumpernickel and
                              Corned Beef at Miller's East Coast Deli on Polk, along with fresh Turkey, Pastrami and a tasty Turkey Pastrami for the fat watchers.

                              Also old fashioned slaw, good kosher pickles (sours and half-sours) and, rarely seen outside of Russian Delis, pickled tomatoes. Ask for center cut on the corned beef and pastrami or you'll have a plate of fat webs.

                              The homemade cakes look good.

                              I saw a tall gorgeous homemade cheese cake but haven't ordered it, yet. Knishes too but with puffy pastry not traditional knish dough.

                              It's my go to matza ball noodle soup and half-a-sandwich nostalgia lunch.

                              Gorgeous Reuben sandwich. Bagel and Nova with trimmings is well-priced at $%.95. Ask for imported blk olives. Nicoise.

                              Good matza balls and hm soup that is a perfect bubbie broth unless it sits and salts and salts. Miller's has a new pizza oven.

                              Fried chicken looks very intersting.
                              Now serving pizza. Hoping for a Corned Beef Special Pizza soon.

                              Hot Subs look great, with Kosher style or Italian.

                              Good cheese steaks!

                              The main courses were not as successful so far as I triedwhen MIller's was new.

                              Since I'm a Philly hillbilly -a suburb of New York- I'm used to great deli.

                              Miller's East Coast Deli
                              1725 Polk St, San Francisco, CA 94109

                              2 Replies
                              1. re: stanbee
                                sugartoof Aug 28, 2010 09:25 PM

                                Philly's deli could very well be the dark horse winner in a competition including NY and LA deli. I'm shocked Miller's East Coast would pass as worthwhile for you.

                                1. re: sugartoof
                                  stanbee Aug 29, 2010 01:40 AM

                                  I'm shocked myself.

                                  Miller's doesnt match up to Philly's Famous Deli (I worked across the street -my bud was a counterman) but I've lived here long enough to choose Miller's as the best here yet. Good breads, corned beef and unstringy Pastrami.

                                  Always bad coffee though, served with a bouillon spoon.

                                  Beats flying to Vegas for a Stage Deli jones.

                                  Perhaps I've just lived here too long. But, I''ll buck up at Sage's Deli, Hallandale, Fla for YomTov in a few weeks.

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