Bread Baking at Home

[Adagio]

Hi:

I was asked by some to start a board concerning bread baking at home.

I agreed.

So, if I can help...awesome. No one will learn more than I.

NO...we'll learn together.

We'll deal with anything that contains yeast, from Brioche to pre-ferments, to sour doughs.

So...let's play and learn together!

If I don't know the answer, I know where to find it.

No being bashful here...we're just all breadheads!

RJ
Adagio Bakery & Cafe
[e-mail]

[Querencia]

This is the bread I made twice a week for years. It makes extraordinary toast. Dissolve 1 cake yeast in 1/2 cup lukewarm water. Add 1 tablespoon sugar and let set 45 minutes. Meanwhile melt and cool 1 stick (4 oz) butter. When cool, add to the yeast with 1 beaten egg, 2 cups lukewarm water, 2 tsp salt, and 1/2 cup sugar. Beat thoroughly then work in 8 cups flour and knead until elastic, about 10 minutes. Let rise. Punch down and form 2 loaves. Let rise again. Place in COLD oven and turn temperature to 400* then after 15 minutes to 375* and bake bread 25 minutes longer. Brush loaves with butter. VARIANT: Instead of 8 cups white flour use 2 cups white flour, 2 cups whole wheat flour, 2 cups yellow cornmeal, and 2 cups Kellogg's All Bran cereal.

[DuffyH]

<It makes extraordinary toast.>

Would you say it's like English muffin bread, then?

[Querencia]

I remember watching an aunt's first (and only) attempt at yeast baking---she set her dough to rise on a REALLY hot back porch in the sun, thinking the more heat, the better, and of course she killed her yeast. Grown up now (and a yeast baker) I always tell beginning bakers to think of yeast as if it were a little baby that you must keep warm and feed but must protect from extremes. Like an infant, yeast likes body temperatures. It eats carbohydrate (sugar and flour), it does better if it's kept out of cold drafts, and it eliminates but in a more pleasant way than a baby does--- bubbles of air that make the dough rise and make the whole house smell like baking bread.

[DuffyH]

I don't bake, but have been yearning to save money on bread, so just this morning I baked my very first loaf of no-knead bread in my 4.5qt clad stainless saucepan. Ta Da! Check out this picture. Isn't it gorgeous?

It is very, very good bread. A classic rustic loaf. I'd read that it can be rather blah tasting, but it wasn't. Maybe it's because I live in Tampa and it's warmer here. Maybe it's because I don't have any instant yeast, so used a bit more active dry yeast. Maybe I'm a magician. Whatever the reason, it has a great crust, a chewy crumb and a nice yeasty tang.

But, I'd also like to find a recipe that produces a lighter, less chewy crumb, something a little better suited to sandwiches, along the lines of fresh supermarket French bread. I'm open to anything. Any ideas?

[chocchic]

I'm addicted to Peter Reinhart's Multi Grain Bread Extraordinaire. I find that I bake up a loaf about once a week. Have two questions. Could I double the recipe and just bake in two pans? I would love to share a loaf but despite my good intentions I end up eating it. HaHa.
Also wondering could I substitute a smmall portion of whole wheat flour for bread flour?
thanks so much.

[sandylc]

I find that generally speaking a substitution of 25% or less of whole wheat flour is OK. Doubling the recipes should also work if you have the muscles/equipment to handle the mixing of so much heavy dough. With either/both changes you might have to adjust the flour/water a bit to acheive the right hydration; you are familiar with this dough, so you should be able to judge this by looks/feel.

[egit]

Hi All --

It's me again. I have another question. I made a batch of the following over the weekend:

http://jezebel.com/no_knead-refrigera...

I read somewhere (I thought here, but I guess not...) someone suggested "up to a third" of the flour could be substituted with semolina, and it would magically transform the flavor. For some strange reason, I happened to have semolina flour, so I figured I'd give it a shot.

The trouble I had was that the dough didn't really rise as much as I'd thought it would. It never quite doubled. I let it rise for well over two hours. It got close, but eventually after 90 minutes it simply stopped moving. The resulting product was somewhat dense; not quite like a bagel, but not nearly as light as I'd have liked. It's not a total loss, just a little bit disappointing.

My question: was this due to the semolina? Or is it more likely some of my yeast had given up the ghost? I had several partial packets of yeast and one fresh one in my fridge. Some of them may have been rather old (6-12 months old).

Insight? Thank you!

[Antilope]

I see the recipe calls for 1 1/2 Tbsp of kosher salt for 6 1/2 cups of flour. This is okay if you used kosher salt. If you used this much sea salt or table salt, it might be too much and might inhibit yeast growth, making a dense loaf. If substituting sea salt for kosher salt, I would use only 1 Tbsp for the recipe, based on the weights below.

I just weighted some table salt, sea salt and kosher salt I have on hand:

Morton Table Salt 19.2 gm per Tbsp
La Baleine Coarse Sea Salt 19.0 gm per Tbsp
Diamond Crystal Kosher Salt 12.9 gm per Tbsp

I had bulk 1-lb packs of instant yeast (stored airtight) in my freezer that were 5 years past the expiration date and worked fine. Store your yeast in the freezer. I used it right out of the freezer without warming to room temp and it worked fine.

[maria lorraine]

Dunno...but all the semolina I've used is far heavier than regular bread flour -- meaning, the same amount of yeast as before isn't going to provide enough ooomph to make that heavy dough rise. I encountered the same thing when first making rye breads with heavier rye meal flours -- the loaves were dense.

Solutions? Increase the quantity of yeast, or accept that the loaf will dense, or reduce the quantity (or eliminate) the semolina or??

Did you like the flavor of adding the semolina? If not, go back to the original recipe.

[maria lorraine]

Curious about this...just checked the King Arthur Semolina Bread recipe and it uses 1 Tablespoon yeast PER LOAF (made with 3 cups semolina flour).
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/semolina-bread-recipe

Your linked recipe used 1.5 Tablespoons for three loaves, or half a tablespoon per loaf.

So, increase your yeast quantity.

Also, most semolina flour breads (Italian, usually) are slightly dense.
http://www.macheesmo.com/2011/03/semo...

[egit]

Thanks guys.

Antilope - I used diamond crystals, so it wasn't that it was over-salted. I will confess that I measured one T of yeast, and then it looked "about like a half T" for the rest. My eye is pretty good, but I can't swear to that quantity. Nice tip on the freezer though. I'll store yeast in the freezer in the future.

maria - It tasted fine, but if that's a trade-off, I'll ditch the semolina next time. I'm waiting until the remainder of the dough ferments a bit to see if it makes any appreciable difference. I made the dough Saturday morning and baked a small loaf from it on Sunday.

Thanks again! I really appreciate there being one thread I can throw out random bread questions with the hope that someone will share insight and experience.

[LMAshton]

Personally, I do all my baking in weight, not volume. I find it easier to consistently get good results. One main problem with baking using volumes is that you don't know how the recipe writer measures her flour. Packed? Sifted? How sifted? Scooped? And how do you measure and how does that compare to the recipe writer?

One informal study done over at The Fresh Loaf, I believe, showed that a cup of flour could range anywhere from 100 grams to 250 grams depending on if it was sifted, how it was sifted, if it was scooped, packed, and so on.

Then if you're substituting one type of flour for another, they may have different densities. I checked my handy dandy online conversion tool at http://www.onlineconversion.com/weigh... and found that:

1 cup flour, all purpose = 125 grams
1 cup semolina = 167 grams

That's for sifted flour. There was no semolina flour listed, so I don't know how much that weighs, but to give you some idea...

1 cup barley flour = 148 grams
1 cup rice flour = 158 grams

There are also flours listed that weight less than all purpose wheat flour, but I'm guessing that semolina flour probably weighs more per cup that white flour, and if that's the case, one contributing factor could be that the dough was more dense than when you use white flour only.

My suggestion is to get a scale and use that for baking. You'll be closer to getting consistent results and it'll be easier to rule out the weight of the flour as a source of the problem.

If you go that route, keep in mind that salt is usually measured at 2% of the total weight of the flour.

[Bada Bing]

I agree that weights are much better. But finding recipes that go by weight involves moving up a notch or two sophistication of sources, which not everyone is game to do. I'm not saying weights are more challenging--quite the contrary--but only that recipes that go by weight aren't what you find in the popular press and newspapers and common cookbooks very often, alas.

edit: p.s., the word "formula" is sometimes helpful in Googling baking recipes that go by weight (e.g., "semolina bread formula"). Also "baker's weight."

[Antilope]

It's really not that difficult, for any volume recipe, to reverse engineer the flour weight from the weight of the liquids that are called for. People may use different methods to volume measure flour, but liquid volume should be pretty accurate. If you want a 60% hydration and weigh the liquids, the flour weight is easy to determine.

Example: If the recipe calls for 1 cup of water, it weighs 236 gm / .60 = 393 gm of flour.

As an example for the recipe in question calling for 3 cups of water and 6 1/2 cups of flour: I have a bakers formula for wheat bread (bread flour and whole wheat flour) calling for 63% hydration. Probably similar to the bread flour and semolina flour recipe. Doing the math results in:

3 cups water = 236 gm * 3 = 708 gm / .63 = 1123.8 gm of flour total. Just divide the flour weight up by 50 / 50 or 25 / 75 etc, depending on how much semolina and how much bread flour is used.

[LMAshton]

I use the conversion tool I linked to above to convert recipes from volume to weight. I've converted all the baking recipes I use to weights, including cakes, souffles, cookies, brownies. Works great and the conversion is not at all difficult.

Using the above recipe, the 6.5 cups flour is 812 g with the called for 3 cups water, or 711 grams. That gives a really high hydration of 87%. Antilope's theoretical 63% is typical of a French bread loaf. I see 87% very rarely, like with a very slack ciabatta, but I can see it working for a no-knead bread.

[maria lorraine]

Actually, I've found that the linked recipe has quite a few errors, certainly factual errors.

Though it's convenient to work from an established recipe -- especially one with ingredients in weights -- not all recipes are honed, and that's the case here.

I feel like a better approach would be to take the No-Knead Bread Recipe or the 5-Minute recipe and adapt it yourself.

Or, to take a great bread baking book -- like any of Peter Reinhart's books, the Tartine bread baking book, Bouchon's -- and use those recipes, which are tightly honed. Some recipes from those books are online, and some, of course, are here on Chowhound.

Finally, the Debra Wink website is phenomenal for recipes and explanations.

[LMAshton]

I hadn't read the recipe in detail, so I'll take your word for it. Personally, I adapt all recipes anyway. I use only sourdough starter, not commercial yeast, so that's adapted after I convert the recipe to weight...

[maria lorraine]

And we have to bear in mind that bakers come in a variety of skill levels and with varying amounts of curiosity and time.

While you may enjoy converting or adapting a bread recipe, that may be too much work or effort for another. While some of us may enjoy using and maintaining a starter, that isn't workable for others. Or the lack of an accurate digital scale means weighing ingredients is out. And so forth. So recipes must come in many forms.

[sandylc]

What's funny about bread baking is how well it follows a pattern that I have noticed in life:

You have to learn the rules before you can break them.

In other words, after you've made the long journey through discovering how things work (including precise weights, etc.), only then can you throw some stuff randomly into a bowl, stir it up, and get a reasonable loaf as your result.

[Bada Bing]

Agreed.

[LMAshton]

Which is why I advocate using a recipe with weights. It's a much, much, much shorter learning curve than baking with volume measurements.

[egit]

I'm pretty new to baking bread at home.

What kind of thermometers do home bread bakers use to test the dough temperature in the kneading stages, as well as to test when it's done (aside from the Drum test).

Also, some recipes I've read recommend misting the loaves with water a couple of times in the first 5-6 minutes, in addition to placing a CI pan with water in the bottom of the oven.

It seems that opening the oven to mist is counterproductive. Any thoughts on that?

[sandylc]

Here is a nice one:

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/i...

[Antilope]

The Thermapen is about $ 5.00 cheaper directly from Thermoworks.

http://www.thermoworks.com/products/thermapen/

If you need a timer, they sell the best timer for $ 19
http://www.thermoworks.com/products/t...

[sandylc]

Nice timer!

[rtms]

what internal temperature should I be looking for on my homebaked bread?

[Antilope]

Most homebaked breads are done at an internal temperature of 195-F. Some rustic breads are better when cooked to 200-F.

[rtms]

Yikes and thank you! I guess the 220 F was a little high but I was so tired of gummy bread and the crust was nice.

[sandylc]

I do 190 on American and enriched breads, but take rustic ones to 200.

[Bada Bing]

I tend to take rustic bread to 205+. I like the "bold" darker style of crust, and that's generally the internal temp by the time the crust gets where I like it.

In case you don't already know: resist the urge to cut the bread before it's cooled.

[sandylc]

I agree: Dark Crust = GOOD STUFF.

I hate the type of bakery where everything is pale. Gummy and tasteless.

[Ruthie789]

I have been successful at making the long rising 18 hour bread but regular bread is not working out for me. My dough always rises but once baked the bread is heavy what am I doing wrong?

[Bada Bing]

@Ruthie789: if you're using the same dough recipe for long rise and regular rise, then the success of the long rise would mean that the bread's gluten has developed better in that approach. So you should try more thorough kneading of the dough when making regular bread. For most doughs, it makes sense to go for the windowpaning effect:

http://www.thekitchn.com/bakers-techn...

It is also possible that the longer rise would allow some time for a moderate amount of fermentation, but I would think that would only make for a flavor boost, not a texture boost.

[Ruthie789]

I do not use the same recipe for the regular rise. I have been successful as mentioned with the long rise and as well with refridgerator rolls which require an overnight stay in the fridge. However each time I attempt a regular loaf everything goes fine, the dough rises but once cooked it is heavy. I will try to knead more and use the link above. My aim a light soft dough... ah if only. Thank you for your help.

[Antilope]

Tender, Fluffy Bread with a Roux

You can use a flour and water roux in bread baking to make a more tender, fluffy loaf. The starch in the roux also traps water and retains it in the finished bread causing it to stay fresh and moist longer. Some people say their bread lasts up to a week.

Just a flour and water roux, no oil is added.

It's a technique developed in China called "Tang Zhong" Method Bread.

The flour and water (5 to 1 ratio water to flour by weight) is heated to 65 C / 150 F to form the smooth roux. The roux can be heated in a saucepan or in the microwave.

2 1/2 Tbs of flour to about 1/2 cup of water is enough roux for a 1 lb to 1 1/2 lb loaf.

The cooled roux is just added to the dough mixture with the other wet ingredients, or to the bread machine basket.

You will probably have to adjust the other flour in the recipe up or the other wet ingredients down to compensate for the extra moisture from the roux.

This technique can be used on any type of yeast bread recipe. Kneading and bake times are unchanged for any recipe.

I've used this method with all-purpose flour and bread flour. I haven't tried whole-wheat flour, but there are whole-wheat recipes that can be found with a Google search.

Google "Tang Zhong Bread" for more info on the subject.

[sandylc]

Fascinating! Thanks.

[kara2006]

What a great topic! Thank you. Will this be a separate board discussion eventually?

[maria lorraine]

This is a good thread, but there are many others similar to it, with an entire world of experience in the posts.

[Querencia]

Just remember that your yeast is alive, like a little baby, so you treat it like a baby. Feed it (it likes flour and sugar and isn't crazy about salt) and keep it warm (but not too hot). I remember my aunt's only attempt at working with yeast when she put the dough to rise on a VERY hot sunny back porch and killed her yeast. Liquids added to your yeast should be body temperature, like baby formul, and you want to keep Baby out of drafts and heat waves.

[carluccio]

I have a post at the end of this feed asking why my crust separates from the bread. Not sure anyone has seen the post. Any comments?

[sandylc]

I did see it, but I was waiting for someone smarter than me to answer it for you! I do wonder if you observe bubbles/air pockets on the surface of the risen loaves before baking. I have read that you can pop these with a toothpick. But I don't know what is causing it, and I am fairly sure that it should be prevented rather than fixed.

I hope my comment helps to draw attention to your question....

[carluccio]

Thanks Sandy, I don't think it is air bubble because the breaks are too irregular. My husband thinks it might come from the misting in the first 5 minutes of baking. Anyone else have a thought?

[sandylc]

Ah-h...just reading in my new Jeffrey Hamelman book that the misting should only be in the first several seconds of baking.....

[carluccio]

In these recipes you mist the oven, not directly on the bread, 3 times within the first 5 minutes. Don't think that is what it is. I think the bread may expand during freezing and then shrink during defrosting and it causes the crust to come loose. I would love a solution but if it is the freezing is it we are living with it I don't want to bake every other day!

[maria lorraine]

Does it have to do with moisture migration to the outer edge of the crust from the middle of the dough? What about swapping out the plastic wrap?

[carluccio]

THat's a thought I will give that a try, thank you!

[sandylc]

Whenever you can, it is best to freeze food naked on a baking sheet until it is hard, then bagging/wrapping it. It's also best to avoid nuking good bread if you can.

[maria lorraine]

By any chance, carluccio, are you cooling the bread in the pans? If so, the bread continues to bake, especially the outer edge -- the crust -- that is in contact with the heat of the pan. This can lead to uneven baking, wherein the crust is denser and dryer than the crumb, and so it doesn't stay on.

[carluccio]

No I bake it on a stone in the oven and it cools on racks after it comes out. Thanks

[maria lorraine]

Still a mystery, then. Check the baking sites. Loads of really good ones that have troubleshooting sections. Good luck.

[ZoeLouise]

Carluccio, do you read French? Here's a pdf which deals with all kinds of bread problems and on page 15 has reasons for "croute qui s'ecaille" with fresh and frozen bread: http://www.cannelle.com/BILIOTHEQUE/r...

[maria lorraine]

Interesting site, Zoe. Thanks. Please help with my translation:

Bread fault: Crust "coming off in scales"
Frozen bread:
Freezing bread is forbidden in [French] bakeries
Too much air flow in freezer {leading to excessive drying]
Freezing too long

[ZoeLouise]

That's what I make of it, together with overproofing, too much steam and too hot oven. As we probably don't add Vitamin C, that shouldn't be our problem.

[carluccio]

I have a question....I bake bread about every three weeks and about 8 to 10 loaves. I use Nancy Silverton's Breads from La Brea Bakery recipes and starter that I have had for years. I cool the bread for most of the day then cut the loaves in half, wrap them in plastic and freeze them for later use. Nine times out of ten the crust breaks off in chunks, like there are large air bubbles underneath. What causes this and can I prevent it? Thanks in advance for your wisdom.

[maria lorraine]

Is it a big bubble on this inside? Like this?

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2178...

Lots of answers to baking problems on that site.

[carluccio]

No there are no bubbles, the crust just separates from the remainder of the loaf. I just baked a batch and after they have been frozen I will post a photo, thanks for your response.

[maria lorraine]

Also check, oiling your dough before rising. Google is helpful here with your problem.

[ZoeLouise]

Not much help, just to say that this happens to me too. My bread is perfect, but once frozen, thawed and crisped up again: flying crust. Underbaking the bread a bit helps, but the taste will suffer.

[bakergal]

This happens to me, too. I freeze mini-baguettes in individual plastic bags that I put inside heavy freezer bags. When it's time to eat, I thaw the bread (usually in the MW), then pop it into the toaster oven to crisp. The amount of de-crusting is directly proportional to time spent in the freezer. The first week, good as new. Second week, maybe a little de-crusting . By the third or fourth week, much of the crust cracks off when I cut it.

[Adagio]

are you baking with steam????

[Adagio]

OK...for a real educated guess...I would have to see the formula and the method. However, I would question the shaping technique and ask if you're using steam in the intitial stages of the bake. Also, at what temp are you baking? Are these pan breads or free loaves?

RJ
adagio bakery

[maria lorraine]

Seems to be related to the bread being frozen. See below in the thread.

[milkbd]

I love making bread at home and tried both fresh making on the same day and proofing overnight in the fridge. Both ended up with very good.
But this time, I've tried to do "2 days proofing in the fridge"for the first time. The texture was good, but the yeast flavor took over way too much and tasted awful. Is there maximum proofing time in the fridge?

[Adagio]

Hi:

The more you ferment the bread, the more acidiy it will create. Slow fermentation, or retarding, in the fridge works best with sour dough formulas and one night is about the limit.

It's a great way to "get up and bake", instead of "get up and make bread".

Happy Baking!

[sandylc]

Ralph, are you still hanging around to answer questions?

[KSlink]

He was here two days ago--check upthread for his e-maill address......

[sandylc]

Cooll! Thanks...

[Adagio]

LOL...

Absolutely. I admit not as much as I should!!! I'll try to fix that!

Ralph

[AmandaCA]

I bought a loaf of bread at my local farmer's market. It was super delicious! I went back the next week to find out what type of bread it was. The kid working the tent said it was applesauce bread. He also recommended oatmeal bread. Does anyone have any tried and true recipes for these breads? I'd never heard of them before.

For reference they were like half wheat/half white sandwich breads with a touch of sweetness. The crumb was full of tiny bubbles that gave a pleasant spongy or bouncy texture to the bread. And the crust was a thin pale brown.

[RuralDeb]

I'm glad you're here. I've just finished a one year Baking and Pastry Arts program at a local college and entered a baking competition where I won gold for my bread, bronze for cookies and bronze overall. All at age 57. I'm trying to recreate my success at home but I don't have access to fresh yeast like at the lab at school and we never did cover how to substitue dry yeast for fresh. Is there a formula?

If anyone can help I'd really appreciate it.

[housewolf]

Here's a chart you can use, it's more accurate than trying to use a formula.
http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yea...

Good luck to you! Baking bread at home has it's challenges over baking in the commercial ovens that schools and restaurants use, but you should be able to create some great breads in your own kitchen.

[Kelli2006]

You can often buy fresh yeast in cake form in the refrigerator case in most mega-marts.

This is the fresh to dry conversion rate.
"to convert fresh cake yeast to instant yeast, for 1 packed tablespoon/0.75 ounce cake yeast use 2 teaspoons instant yeast or 2-1/2 teaspoons active dry"

[Adagio]

Hi:

You don't need fresh yeast. I do admit that it does perform better, but it only lasts about 3 weeks. So instead use INSTANT yeast at about 33% that of the fresh. It needs no pre-proofing...I don't know who started that rumor. Just throw it in with the rest of the ingredients and mix.

[Querencia]

I started baking with yeast 65 years ago when we were living in Argentina where yeast was sold in bulk (you bought it by the 100 grams) at bakeries. I used to use 1 level tablespoon, packed, for 1 cake of yeast as was called for in American recipes at that time. And 1 cake should correspond to 1 envelope of dry. Nowadays I do sometimes see cakes of fresh yeast but not at all stores.

[Adagio]

Fresh yeast outperforms all others. However, it is tough to get in small quantities and three weeks later, it's toast...sorry about that.

Instant, (dry) is very good. In formulas that call for fresh, just use about .33 of the amount called for for fresh. Also, I like to make up the difference in water.

Remember, Fresh yeast is mostly moisture.

Remember to always check your hydration by "feel" and also...the all important dough temperature is a good way to keep consistency from loaf to loaf.

[ZenSojourner]

I have a question about baguettes. Is a cloth couche absolutely required? My crust comes out TOO thick and I understand a couche is supposed to help that to develop. I've been using my super parchment with towels rolled up under the parchment to create the u-shaped spaces for proofing the baguettes, so I don't have to handle the dough at all once the baguettes have been formed and proofed.

[Adagio]

Hi:

Of course you can get around the Egyption or artist linen...but it's less fun!

If your crust is coming out thick, I suspect either you're not using steam, or not enough!

Adagio

[sandylc]

Hi....

How do you propose the home baker deal with a starter? In other words, not baking every day or even every other day....maybe once a week or two weeks...it seems a bit silly to be a slave to the starter if you don't use it that often. (Seems wasteful, as well) I've heard it can be frozen; is this worth it?

Thanks!

[LMAshton]

I keep my starter in the fridge when I'm not using it. I refresh as needed. If it's been a long time since the last time I used it - say, a few weeks or longer - then I'll refresh it twice before I use it again. It's kept fine for months at a time.

[sandylc]

Thanks!

[MDCurrent918]

Hi.
I'm working on a baguette recipe, where there's a pate fermente that's about 70% the total weight of the flour. Can you tell me your thoughts on the best time and method to incorporate this is?

I've been mixing it into the water & yeast, then adding the flour & salt. This results in a very ... STRONG dough, that rips itself apart at the seam. (no, it's not too much flour during shaping, I've tested that to death!). I've tried adding an additional amount of water to the dough, to soften it. This almost worked, but the dough is so soft, it's very difficult to work.

Any help would be appreciated!
Thanks!

[Adagio]

Hi:

70% is a lot.

Try throttling back to about 40% and see how that goes for you for taste.

As far as gluten development, take your pate fermente and break it into pieces and throw it in during the incorporation phase.

Mix the dough for about 2-3 minutes until it comes together, then about 4-6 minutes at medium speed...about 8 on a kitchen aid.

That's enough!!!!!!

Two stretch and folds will provide all the gluten you need after that!

Adagio Bakery

[guster4lovers]

Hi all-

I'm fairly new to bread baking, and have recently began exploring the recipes in Bread Baker's Apprentice. I have made several of them, and I've noticed the same problem each time (which seems to mean it's my technique rather than his instructions/procedures): my bread always registers higher on an instant probe thermometer than Reinhart indicates it should be (often as high as 88-90 degrees, instead of at the required 79-81) and yet it doesn't pass the windowpane test. I start checking half way through the suggested kneading time, and it's nearly always above temperature, and yet just pulls apart when I try to stretch it. Today, out of curiosity, I probed it before I started kneading, and found it to be 86-87 degrees. Does that mean I'm adding water that's too hot, and thus leaving too much residual heat in my dough? Or is there another factor I'm not seeing?

In case it matters, here's how I have been kneading my dough: entirely in a large Oxo bowl, rather than on a counter. This innovation (to me at least) was brought about due to a back injury that made standing uncomfortable, and the total lack of counterspace in my kitchen (and Reinhart mentions it as a technique in the tutorial at the start of BBA). It means that I'm not adding any extra flour - when I first started, I was often adding 1/2 cup in order to keep my dough from sticking. For the record, I have done the kneading the "traditional" way and in the bowl, and the result is always the same.

My second problem is the amount of rise I'm able to get during the final proofing before baking. After the hour Reinhart indicates, the dough has either not doubled in size or has started deflating a bit, which is compounded when I score and transfer the dough to bake it. Is there some way I don't know about to measure when to stop the final proofing so that you still get some oven "spring"?

Thanks, and please let me know if I'm not being clear enough. I really appreciate the help!

[Adagio]

Hi:

This will take a few emails. If we're talking white flour, pre-ferment doughs, 76F is MORE than enough!

Also, you MUST correct for temperature during the mixing phase!!!

So, if you have all the parts:

Flour temperature, room temperature, preferment temperature and mixer friction...here's how it goes.

Flour, room, pre-ferment, water are four parts. At 76F that's 4 X 76 = 304F

Example:

Flour = 65F
Room = 66F
Pre=ferment = 68F
Mixer Friction = 15F

Total 304
Flour -65
Room -66
Pre-ferment -68
Mixer friction -15

Water = 90F

This will get you to the desired dough temperature and consistency.

[we3lsc]

I just bought a KitchenAid 600 Pro stand mixer, and I do not know what is meant by mixer friction, and pre ferment. my house is at 72 degrees, so does that mean my water and flour need to be at 72 as well? Also how did you do the calculations to figure the mixer friction

[ams1]

Anyone know where I can get liquid levain in DC?

[Adagio]

Hi:

Yes...it lives in your flour bag!
Monday morning:
Step one:

Put 125 grams water in a mixing bowl

Add 50 grams of rye flour

Add 50 grams of all purpose flour.

Mix well and cover lightly with plastic.

Monday afternoon:

Add 125 grams of water
50 grams of rye
50 grams of all purpose

Tuesday Morning

Take one half of your sour...toss out the rest.
to it add 125 grams of water,
50 grams of rye
50 grams or all purpose.

Tuesday afternoon:

add 125 grams of water
50 grams of rye
50 grams of all purpose

Wednesday morning

remove half of the sour
add 125 grams of water
100 grams of all purpose...no more rye.

Wednesday afternoon

add 125 grams of water
100 grams of all purpose

Thursday morning

remove half your sour
add 125 grams water
100 grams all purpose

Thursday afternoon
add 125 grams water
100 grams AP flour

Friday Morning...you may just see gas forming by now.

Remove half your sour
add 125 grams water
100 grams all purpose

Friday afternoon
add 125 grams water
100 grams all purpose

You should have an active culture of liquid levain by now!

You can continue to feed it once to twice a day for another weak. Remember to remove half the sour and toss it.

Keep the formula 125% water to 100% flour.

After you have a strong culture, you can refrigerate your levain and each week a couple of days before you bake, take it out of the fridge, remove half and feed. as you did when you started it.

The rye is there to start the culture. The enzymes in the rye really accelerate the process, but it is not necessary! You can do it with all purpose flour alone. It may just take a day or three longer to get going.

Let me know how you do!

Ralph
Adagio Bakery & Cafe

[gingershelley]

Adagio, what is the science or purpose of removing half of the sour so often and throwing it out?

And, at what point is it ready to use. At that point, wouldn't the 1/2 I remove from the mother culture be what I use to actually bake with, as in remove and make a loaf with 1/2 the starter, feed remaining starter and put it back in the fridge?

Please advise.

[sandylc]

Gingershelley, those are the questions I have had for years....it seems unclear and wasteful to me. I guess, tho, that the throwing away part is so that it can be fed frequently without becoming the size of a house - ?

[LMAshton]

Personally, when I start a new wild yeast starter (also known as sourdough starter, but mine isn't sour), I start with much, much smaller amounts of flour and water. I tend to do, say, 10 grams flour, 10 grams water - no rye.

If you don't remove some of the starter each time you refresh, you'll have to add an increasingly larger amount of flour and water. For example, let's say you have 50 grams of starter that you want to refresh. I'd add 50 grams of flour and 50 grams of water - so twice the amount of flour and water of what's already in the starter. If I had 500 grams of starter, I'd have to add 500 grams of flour and water to refresh it. That's really wasteful.

I don't through out the starter I remove - I'll use it for making pancakes, waffles, cakes, and so on.

[blue room]

I'd like to hear about the use of a poolish & biga--why is that different than just no-knead with an extra step added?
I'd also like some frank talk about oven limitations--I've got an old electric (which does the no-knead just fine.) But should I not try certain breads?

[Smachnoho]

Has anyone tried leaving their yeast dough in the fridge over night to rise? Does it work? Does it give bread more flavour?

[blue room]

Yes, I've done this with the Lahey no-knead dough--it does rise, just very very slowly compared to how it rises on the counter in the summer. I always like the flavor, but personally have never had 2 loaves (one slow, one fast) to compare. I read that fermentation is what causes flavor. It *seems* like the same amount of fermentation must take place in both cases, if both bowls of dough end up the same size. I would like to know also how this works.

[Adagio]

Adding a pre-ferment will change the flavor!

A biga 60% hydration left over night will make the bread a bit more acidic.

A poolish, 100% hydration will make the bread more lactic...think yogurt!

[Kelli2006]

I'm baking pizza this evening and the crust that I am using is a whole wheat crust that has been resting/rising in a Rubbermaid container my fridge for a week.

A week might seem too long to some but a long slow rise is a sure way to extract the maximum flavor from a yeast dough. I wouldn't leave it out on a 68° counter for more than 48 hours, but because the action of the yeast is slowed dramatically at 40° a week in the fridge is quite safe.

Rising time= flavor.

[blue room]

I didn't get why rising time=flavor.
But just found (at a site called "The Kitchn") this explanation:

"When dough is refrigerated, the yeast and bacteria go dormant, but the enzymes that have been breaking down flour starches into sugar keep on trucking. This gives you a much higher percentage of simple sugars in your final dough than you would otherwise. The final loaf will have sweet nutty flavors and the crust will get nicely caramelized."

[Smachnoho]

One more question, if I leave my bread dough in the fridge overnight, should I shape it into loaves after I take it out in the morning and then bake or should I shape it into loaves and then put it back in the frige for a few more hours?

[Adagio]

Shape first...then retard overnight.

This works really well with Levain breads.

Ralph
Adagio Bakery & Cafe
[e-mail]

[LMAshton]

You can do it either way.

Personally, I usually let the dough go through its first rise, then shape it and stick it in the freezer, but I've done it both ways and it's worked fine.

[Adagio]

The yeast in retarding does not go to sleep, rather, it slows down.

There will be an increased acidity present the next day.

Usually, retading is limited to about 16 hours, otherwise the acid strength is way too much.

regards,

Ralph
Adagio Bakery & Cafe

[maria lorraine]

When you use the no-knead method (Lahey-Sullivan) or a sourdough or pre-dough to make your bread, there are two types of lactobacilli that affect the dough, and one type of yeast. This is true no matter where in the world you make your bread.

The lactobacilli come in two different forms: hetero and homo. Heterofermentative and homefermentative. They play the major role in bread rising and flavor. Less important, but still important, is the yeast.

Most of sourdough's flavor and leavening come from the heterofermentative type of lactobacillus, which pumps out acetic acid (vinegar, for sourness) as a by-product and favors a temp below 82-85 degrees F. The other type of lactobacillus -- homofermentative -- pumps out the lactic acid (more mellow and complex than acetic acid) and does its thing above 82-85 F.

So, a long cool fermentation increases sourness. By controlling the temp of the starter and dough, you control the type of lactobacillus that has the upper hand in fermentation, thereby controlling the final flavor and sourness of the bread.

Debra Wink, the co-author on a number of scientific sourdough articles whom I quoted above, sums up things nicely on her great bread baking website:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/

-- more fermentation time generally means more acid
-- lower temperature increases the percentage of acetic acid, or sourness.
-- lower temperatures produce acids more slowly; higher temps, more quickly
-- higher temperatures mean a higher ratio of lactic to acetic acid. This is a mellower acid; the flavor is rounded and complex.

You can experiment what temperature (or combination of temperatures -- both in and out of the refrigerator) gives you the flavor you prefer.

I have also found these tips helpful to producing artisan loaves:
-- heating the cast iron pot in which you will bake your bread in a hot oven for an hour (from the Lahey method)
--introducing steam into the oven at the beginning of the bake for good oven rise; this can be as simple as throwing a half-cup of water into the bottom of the oven.
--dusting the loaf with flour before the final rise, and slashing the tops of the loaves in a pretty pattern

Good luck to you. If you need links to the Lahey-Sullivan no-knead instructions (both initial and revised), let me know. There are other very good threads on this on Chowhound. I really think the flavor, look, and texture are excellent with this method.

[Adagio]

You can do that after shaping if you like.

It's called...retarding the dough.

It will absolutely affect the flavor as acids will build up during that process.

Also, you will notice the bake will produce little bubbles on the crust. If you don't mind that then go ahead.

Retarding bread is a great way to come in the morning and go right to the bake.

Some loaves lend themselves to retarding more than others. Experimentation is key.

[jencounter]

I'm currently doing the Artisan Bread in Five method wherein you mix up a large batch of dough (enough for 4 1lb loaves) and store the dough in the fridge for up to two weeks to use at your leisure.

I let my last batch sit longer than two weeks (life got in the way); the last two loaves I baked were almost sourdough in taste - absolutely delicious. So in my experience: yes, letting it sit in the fridge absolutely results in a more flavorful bread.

[Adagio]

Best part about bread baking, and the first rule is...if you like it...it's right!

Now...go bake some more!

RJ
Adagio Bakery & Cafe

[bigfred]

It certainly does help-to a point. I have found that up to 48 hours is optimal in terms of increasing the flavour

[Adagio]

Poolish, biga, madre, pate fermente...are the "flavor packets" of the bread.

The pre-ferments, as they are called, add the flavor profile. You can bake a straight dough without a pre-ferment but it just won'e be as interesting.

Oven limitations are the biggest thing. However, there isn't a home oven I haven't been able to overcome.

Steam is all important and if you read the above post, you will see an explanation.

Knowing your oven is the most important thing, and an internal thermometer would help to see if your oven is accurate.

Loading the bread in a home oven is a problem because when you open the door...you loose a hundred degrees right off the bat.

I stone is a wonderful thing. Go find "fibrament" on the web...they are great.

No-knead? Please explain to make sure we're talking about the same thing.

[housewolf]

"No-Knead" is a term used for the relatively new bread baking technique of stretch and folding high hydration bread dough over a period of time to develop gluten rather than kneading dough (either by machine or by hand).

One of the first to use this method was Steve Sullivan of Acme Bread Bakery and has become popularized by Jim Lahey (the New York Times No-Knead Bread (aka NYT No-Knead bread)), the book "Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes a Day" (aka "ABin5), Cooks Illustrated, and Peter Reinhart in his new book "Artisan Breads Every Day".

It's revolutionized bread-baking for home bakers in that the method allows home bakers to make up a batch of dough and keep it in the refrigerator for up to 5 days or so and each day, cutting off a portion that's ready to bake in a very short period of time. Home bakes can come home from work and have freshly baked, deeply-flavored bread for dinner every night;

[Adagio]

Hi:

We do "stretch and folds" all the time.

Normally, it depends on much gluten you form off the mixer.

It's never knowing when to turn on the mixer...it's when to turn it off.

However, I feel, a certain amount of mixing is always needed.

In normal bread, we do a stretchen a fold in the middle of a two hour bulk fermentation.

On higher hydration breads like Ciabatta, we do a 3 hour bulk fermentation and two stretch and folds.

This is not a revolutionary method for home bakers, but a normal device for pro bakers as well.

As for keeping dough in the fridge for 5 days...there will be a LOT of acid formed.

If you like that...great.

Ralph
Adagio Baker & Cafe

[RikkiMama]

Correction: Peter Reinhart's new book "Artisan Breads Every Day" is not about no-knead. The bread is kneaded on the first day, then allow to cold ferment in the refrigerator for at least 8 hours. Reinhart found that he likes the flavor of the bread better when using extended fermentation at refrigerated temperatures.

It is a method used by pro bakers - make the dough the day before, then shape, proof, and bake the next day. It's more a matter of scheduling when you need to have fresh bread available for your morning customers.

[Adagio]

Right!

Extended slow, overnight, retarding of dough does change the flavor.

We find that levain bread work best like this.

Also, we retard laminated dough and brioche over night.

Remember, after mixing, let ferment at room temperature for one hour then refrigerate. De-gas several times in the next few hours.

Have fun!

RJ
Adagio Bakery & Cafe

And...if you're looking for the definitive book on bread baking, try: BREAD by Jeffrey Hamelman...it is the best.

RJ

[EllieLA]

I've been making the Lahey no-knead bread in a cast iron pot.
Can I use this same recipe in a loaf pan? Been wanting to find a way to make a no-knead sandwich loaf.
Thanks!

[Adagio]

Hi EllieLA

I don't see why not!

I would put a cast iron frying pan in the bottom of the oven. If it's electric...the bottom rack.

Try baking at 440F.

Load the panned bread, put a cup of hot water in the frying pan, and close the door.

Do NOT open for at least 15 minutes, then change the position of the pan to get an even bake.

Let me know how you do.

RJ
Adagio Bakery & Cafe

[Sherri]

If the poster, EllieLA, is using Pyrex or other glass loaf pans, couldn't 440 be a pretty hot oven? Most of these brands advise against using temps above 375 degrees.

[Adagio]

HI Sherri:

I guess 440 for glass might be too hot...one would have to check with the manufacturer.

Also, and I'm not sure about this, the sudden introduction of steam could crack them?!

Here's my take on glass:

1. it insulates too much slowing the bake. Remember, the yeast will continue to feed until 140F. So too much gas production might...I say might be a problem.

2. Because of the insulating properties of glass, the bake will take longer for two reasons, you suggestion of a lower temp and the thick glass.

3. Why just make one loaf??? You can get ganged steel pans, three to a section that will fit nicely in a home oven. This makes turning the loaves much easier, and you can get 6 loaves to the bake.

Think how family and friends will love you!!!!

Regards,
Ralph
Adagio Bakery & Cafe, LLP

[Adagio]

Hi:

This usually works best with sour dough breads. The extra fermentation...does help the flavor.

However, you have to put up with the "bubbles" on the crust.

[rtms]

Thanks Adagio!

I'm more confident working with yeast bread dough and have been pleased with the resulting bread. I've used my cast iron dutch oven and cookie sheets to make 'artisan' bread. Do you have recommendations or things to look for in a loaf pan? I'm going to start making sandwich bread for everyday use.

Also, how to tell that the bread is fully baked - without letting the load cool and cutting it open?

[Adagio]

Hi:

Normally, a 4X8x2 inch pan will hold about a pound of product. Roll the dougn into a cylinder and place it in the pan to proof.

Proofing is done when you gently press the dough and it comes back slowly.

Bake around 440F with Steam (a cast iron fying pan on the floor or lowest rack of the oven will do nicely. Load the pan and throw a cup of hot water in the frying pan, close the door and do NOT check for 15 minutes, then open the door to let out any moisture, turn the pan.

Good color is an indication of a fully baked loaf. However, you can turn the loaf out of the pan and thump the bottom...it should be hollow.

Also, squeezing the sides...they should be firm.

Practice, practice.......practice!

[LMAshton]

Yep, good color is a great indication. Also, you can knock on the bottom of the loaf. If it sounds hollow, it's done.

As for loaf pans - I don't even own one. I bake my bread freestyle on, well, whatever I have on hand. Right now, that's a roasting pan. I'll bake smaller batches in a stainless steel pot that's had the handle (plastic) removed - that works great for the husband to have fresh bread for breakfast every morning. And he gets fresh bread every morning.