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Knife handling - Cleaver/slicers

rosetown Jan 10, 2010 06:37 PM

Recently I've purchases 2 CCK cleavers, carbon steel. On my old, smaller cleavers, I would move the chopped product onto the cleaver, easily, shovel style, off the wood chopping block. The CCK's are so sharp and they bock in movement, sort of stuttering, on the chopping block. I could reduce the angle of the knife to eliminate that, but then I increase the likely hood of cutting my hand.

Do any of you have suggestions for better handling technique for scooping?

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  1. Chemicalkinetics Jan 10, 2010 07:26 PM

    Do you push the foods together first? Sometime, I place my Chinese chef's knife on the left of the foods and push them toward right and then place the knife on the right of the foods and push them toward left. I do so with the edge trialing, not leading, almost like a broom.

    Only after I centered the food in the middle of the cutting board, then I scoop the foods up. When I scoop the foods, I move the knife at a very sharp and shallow angle toward the food, which should get most of the foods up the knife blade. However, when I move my other hand toward the knife, I bring the knife back to at least 20o if not 30o.

    If the CCK knives are still causing troubles, I will take them off you for free. :P

    49 Replies
    1. re: Chemicalkinetics
      rosetown Jan 10, 2010 09:14 PM

      You make good sense. Trail the knife. And no, you can't have them :)

      FYI, I'm liking them better than my cheaper stainless Japanese knives. I'm thinking of buying a good quality Japanese paring knife. Between, that and the CCK cleaver/slicers, I've got most of my needs covered. I'm surprised by how much control I have on the 1301 for fine slicing. It's maybe a matter of adapation. Still the 1102, because of its height, looks daunting for fine work, given no experience with blades that large. They are homely, but thats part of the charm.

      Regards Duane

      1. re: rosetown
        Chemicalkinetics Jan 11, 2010 04:53 AM


        I tried to contact CCK via email, but CCK has yet to contact me. :(

        I only meant to centering the foods with the knife edge trailing (like a broom). When you scoop the foods, then the knife edge is leading. Once you centered the foods in the middle of a cutting board, then it is easier to scoop foods.

        1301 is supposed to be better for home use. 1102 is for professional kitchen, so your reaction is very normal. Have these knives started to rust or change color or anything?

        1. re: Chemicalkinetics
          rosetown Jan 11, 2010 09:15 AM

          I have to change habits - mine was to move the cleaver toward the sliced product while moving the product onto the cleaver with my free hand. Now it will be more like shoveling snow - a smaller a angle and a quicker scoop keeping my free hand well out of harms way.:)

          Absolutely no change and I've left them wet on the chopping block for up to 10 minutes - although I usually dry them immediately after use. One of my very old small cleavers, carbon steel, looks like a Dexter, has a mottled patina but no rust. And it has been left in the sink overnight on numerous occasions. I like the patina - makes it look well used and it's sharper than my European knives.

          How about contacting their Markham Ontario store? Probably phone only.


          1. re: rosetown
            Chemicalkinetics Jan 11, 2010 09:45 AM


            Before I sharpen my knife, I used to just shove my free hand and my knive together -- just like how you described. After I sharpened my knife, I am a lot more careful.

            I am a stainless knife person and I was thinking about getting a stainless CCK, but then I have recently learnt that the good reputation of CCK is from the carbon steel knives, not the stainless steel knives. As such, CCK stainless steel knives may not be better than Dexter-Russell stainless steel knife (not sure actually), so I think I am going to get a carbons steel knife now. Maybe.

            I have no problem calling CCK for a knife purchase, but I feel weird to ask them about knife information and knife properties on the phone. I have not decided which knife(s) to get.

            Thanks for the information about the knife care. Sounds like the CCK carbon steel may have some stainless property.

            1. re: Chemicalkinetics
              rosetown Jan 11, 2010 08:01 PM


              I think that they do have some stainless properties.

              Prior to buying a Sabatier and Henckel stainless steel chef knives, I had a cheap, no name, and ugly carbon steel butcher knife. It was abused, but still held a great edge. Regretfully, I gave it to the Sally Ann. Today, I would trade my stainless knives to get it back in a heart beat. I would now be proud of that knife and regard it as beautiful. It was the better knife. I was seduced by the polish and finish of stainless and the name of the manufacturers. Kinda like the 'The Emperors New Clothes'


              1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                rosetown Jan 14, 2010 11:11 AM

                Yesterday, with the CCK1102, I sliced through a bok choy - one stroke and minimal pressure. It was truly a slice - no tearing - very clean. I'm still on a learning curve.


                1. re: rosetown
                  Chemicalkinetics Jan 14, 2010 11:43 AM


                  You may have mentioned this. How much was your KF 1102 and KF 1301? If you have to pick one to keep, which one do you prefer?

                  1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                    rosetown Jan 14, 2010 12:45 PM

                    KF1102 120mm X 230mm -436 gm - $61.99 CDN dollars
                    - horizontally shorter and vertically higher
                    - slightly thinner than the 1301 for the last 3/4 inch

                    KF1301 100mm X 240mm -391 gm - $43.99 CDN dollars
                    - horizontally longer and vertically shorter
                    - the top 50mm is blackened - would someone know why?
                    - has a slightly straighter edge (slightly less rounded through the length)

                    For home use I'd pick the 1301, however it's too early in the game to decide
                    - feels the same
                    - less wieldy
                    - less costly
                    - more versatile


                    Edt: I think these cleaver/slicers are finished to good enough tolerances and no better. So the 1102 or 1301 in thinness for the last 3/4 inch might very a bit from blade to blade. In other words just enough quality control to satisfy the market and still have the blades function as expected. Practical Chinese as opposed to obsessive Japanese. :)

                2. re: Chemicalkinetics
                  deeznuts Jan 14, 2010 02:45 PM

                  Chem, just read today that chefsknivestogo has picked up CCK cleavers.


                  And the knives:


                  Note, carbon only. Also note, they say once the lacquer wears off the knife rusts just looking at it.

                  1. re: deeznuts
                    Chemicalkinetics Jan 14, 2010 02:50 PM

                    :( But there are only three choices and in fact really two, since one of it is a butcher knife.

                    Deeznut, you know how CCK has really good reputation, is that only for the carbon steel knives or are the stainless steel knives very high quality?

                    1. re: deeznuts
                      rosetown Jan 14, 2010 03:23 PM

                      The poster is referencing the 1301 only and I'm assuming the top half, which I've referred to as blackened. I doubt the black will come off unless purposely removed.

                      And he says:
                      "On the 130x, don't take off the lacquer, it'll rust by you looking at it if you do."
                      That's different than "they say once the lacquer wears off the knife rusts just looking at it."

                      It's removed as opposed to wear. If it's the black being referenced, I think it would be have to be intentionally removed .

                      Addiionally, the poster says the steel is different on the 11xx as opposed to the 13xx and says the 13xx is thinner. Not my experience. However, I think thickness varys a bit from cleaver to cleaver as I said above.
                      Still a great heads up :)


                      1. re: rosetown
                        Chemicalkinetics Jan 14, 2010 03:57 PM


                        In theory, 13XX often has a thinner blade than 11XX based on the Chinese words. In practice, maybe not.

                        1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                          rosetown Jan 14, 2010 04:18 PM


                          I don't think it matters. They cut the same.
                          As far as rust goes, Maybe 20 to 40 years out, they will develop the renowned carbon steel patina. A patina I like, and one that probably appeals to the Japanese aesthetic.

                          If they needed babying, then no-one would buy them. They would not be the knife of choice of professionals in southern China.


                          1. re: rosetown
                            Chemicalkinetics Jan 14, 2010 07:23 PM


                            Agree. Chinese chefs have a very different philosphy regarding knives than Japanese. Chinese chef's knives are meant to be an all purpose knife from slicing and chopping foods to smashing garlic and ginger to using it to scrub a chopping blocks ... Japanese chefs not only respect their knives. Many revere knives. This is why a >$1000 yanagiba makes sense, but a >$1000 Chinese chef's knife is misguided. If I have to babysit my Chinese chef's knife, then I am not using it as a Chinese chef's knife. I should to use it smach garlics and debone a chicken without second thought.

                        2. re: rosetown
                          deeznuts Jan 14, 2010 09:34 PM

                          Yes it's being discussed as being removed vs. wearing out. But you can't imagine after massive handling of the knife it will last. Smashing garlic with the side will eventually wear that down I would imagine.


                          "If you don't take the lacquer off, it will come off slowly and the patina looks like cocka!! "

                          In other CCK threads, some do say the 110x steel was better, but not by much.

                          Chem, I think you can use the chinese chefs like a western chefs, but they do offer specialized chinese cleavers, these are slicers. Not for chopping and bone crunching, etc.

                          As for rep SS vs. Carbon, I think you've read it correctly, what I've read is that the Carbon is the more desirable knife. Just be aware, sooner or later, it should become a rust machine. Unless you do manage to keep that lacquer on somehow for a long time :) I already have a Shun VG10 cleaver though, a smaller one, so maybe I'll go for the bigger CCK after all.

                          1. re: deeznuts
                            Chemicalkinetics Jan 14, 2010 10:00 PM

                            I know. The KF120X series are the more all-purpose knives. Although KF110X are better for slicing, a Chinese slicer is not quiet the same as specialized as Western slicers. It is just that cannot completely mistreat KF 110X like hacking bones.

                            I thought about Shun VG-10, but at the end I back off. It is a good slicer, but there are two things which made me back off. It is small, but that is not the main reason. The edge belly is too curved for me. It is a good slicer but not vesatile enough to handle slightly more heavy duty jobs. -- just my preference and option on this one.

                            1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                              deeznuts Jan 15, 2010 01:48 AM

                              i agree. I picked it up only because i got a screaming deal on it. I think I paid $70 from amazon. I was warned it was a bit small (which I'm fine with) and there was the belly they did not like on a cleaver. But at that price it's a no brainer. I got it so cheap I might even take it to a gritty stone and reprofile it. And after I mess that all up (but do most of the work) send it to Dave Martell and have it fixed :D

                              I don't plan on using any of my knifes on have duty jobs. That's not what I'm going to use these chinese cleavers for. I'll keep a cheap forschner possibly, a $10 bone crushing cleaver, or a western deba. Or all 3.

                              1. re: deeznuts
                                Chemicalkinetics Jan 15, 2010 04:22 AM


                                Ah, if you are talking about a ~$70 deal, then you must be referring the Steel version (steel handle). Yes, at one point last year, it was very cheap. Yeah, I also have a small yet thick (convex ground) cleaver which I bought from China town for $10. That is for the heavy stuffs, but those are rare. For light-medium jobs like cutting opening a winter melon or butter squash. I still use my regular Chinese chef's knife.

                                Didn't Dave transform someone's Dexter Russell Chinese chef's knife into an almost Nakiri?

                                1. re: deeznuts
                                  Chemicalkinetics Jan 15, 2010 07:30 AM

                                  By the way, I am really interested in the KF 130X knife right now, but I hate the idea that it is made from inferior steel.

                                  1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                    deeznuts Jan 15, 2010 12:22 PM

                                    I wouldn't worry about it. He (dwarvenchef who appears to be quite knowledgable in CCK stuffs) said, "not by much" and inferior may be referring to some sort of feedback while sharpening that I would probably never notice in a billion years. Do a search, you probably wouldn't even see a bad word said about it. And if you do, tell me, I have my eye on that one as well.

                                    Yes, my version is the steel one. I like the classic, but 70 bucks for a huge chunk of VG10. Who can pass that up? Not sure about what Dave did, but that guy is amazing. Who knew, a japanese knife sharpening expert.

                                    1. re: deeznuts
                                      Chemicalkinetics Jan 15, 2010 12:23 PM

                                      No. So we are both going after the same beauty? I thought we are friends, but I guess we are competitors afterall.

                                      1. re: deeznuts
                                        Chemicalkinetics Jan 15, 2010 12:26 PM


                                        By that logic, what about those VG-10 knives (Evergreen or Ever something) knives made in Taiwan being sold at $20-30?


                                        Ok, got the price wrong, but it is still cheap. This is a knife by Evergood. It is larger and has a straighter edge profile:


                                        1. re: deeznuts
                                          rosetown Jan 15, 2010 04:10 PM


                                          Agreed, if there is a difference in steel, and it's not confirmed. It's likely of no consequence.

                                          DwarvenChef says:
                                          "The 1103 (ala Nick and Joe ) is my ideal Lunch Rush knife, pizza peal, cutting board scraper, wicked thin slicer, production scoop, Geeze you name it."
                                          "Oh is smashes garlic all right I have a 6 pan of bulbs at my station so I can have fresh garlic"
                                          when Andy777 says this the verdict is final."
                                          "Pretty much what he said. I wouldn't say that the Suien is a ton heavier, maybe 20g is all, but the CCK is so damn thin is just glides through everything in spite of it's sub par steel. You really can't find a better slicing cleaver, Japanese or not, the only cleaver that comes close is the Tadatsuna and maybe the Takeda. The Suien however is a well made piece of Japanese steel, price aside the Suien is a much better knife that can be thinned a touch to be a great performer. The CCK is just a super thin super bargain."


                                          This is in a commercial kitchen. In a home environment the cleavers won't see this kind of use in a month.
                                          I certainly don't need an 1102 and a 1301. It's plain silly and governed by ignorance and greed. :) If I purchased again it would be only the 1301. It's only one inch shorter than my Henckel carver , which is a very long knife. It'll cut squash with ease, carve, mince. A do it all.


                                          1. re: rosetown
                                            deeznuts Jan 15, 2010 07:16 PM

                                            You can do everything with two knives, maybe 3. Doesn't mean you have to though! Hehe, I might have 3 knives that will do the exact same thing, and I don't care. It's about enjoyment, right? :)

                                            Chem, yes I've read about evergood, but not much is known about them at all. It is VG10, but how is the F&F etc. The steel itself must still be shaped, tempered etc. correctly. Still at $44 it seems like a screaming deal. Just wish someone else had bought one so I don't have to be the guinea pig. Somoene said they emailed evergood and they said "quality same as Shun" and that the low prices were introductory prices. Intriguing, but they are not lookers that's for sure. At least the CCK have that rustic look. That evergood looks everbad lol

                                            But here is a guy selling his evergood gyuto, and it doesn't look half bad! http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/sho...

                                            1. re: deeznuts
                                              Chemicalkinetics Jan 15, 2010 07:28 PM


                                              Oh yeah. I remember reading that guys's posts. They are funny, like Opps this one is gone, Opps another is gone... Your reasons are the same reasons why I have not bought the Evergood. I have no idea how the knives are exactly tempered. I were hoping that you will test the knives for us.

                                              I need to call CCK and ask them if KF 110X knives are really made from better knives than KF 130X

                                              1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                deeznuts Jan 16, 2010 02:00 AM

                                                i might grab one at those prices. they are insanely cheap. Compare it to the shun vg10 and kanetsune vg10. Dang all my knives are VG10, i need to branch out.

                                                1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                  Paulustrious Jan 16, 2010 09:03 AM

                                                  Hi CK - I have a CCK cleaver - but just stainless steel with a SS handle. It is a thin one, wickedly sharp. How do I find out which one it is? All that is on it is a number 2 and whole bunch of Chinese hieroglyphics.

                                                  I bought it from a CCK shop in Toronto. (Actually Markham, Toronto's neighbour)

                                                  I also picked up a large fine waterstone for $20 which seems to work well

                                                  1. re: Paulustrious
                                                    rosetown Jan 16, 2010 09:51 AM


                                                    If the spine, where it joins the handle, is 3 mm or slightly less
                                                    and if the spine, 1 inch from the leading edge, is about 1mm
                                                    and if the blade length is 23cm and the width is 12cm
                                                    then it is likely a KF1122.


                                                    1. re: rosetown
                                                      Paulustrious Jan 16, 2010 10:34 AM

                                                      The spine is 1.5 mm., blade 23mm, width / depth = 89mm. Sorry, by thin I meant the 1mm rather than the depth of the blade.

                                                      What's your best guess now? The shop had a selection of maybe forty different knives and cleavers, possibly more.

                                                      1. re: Paulustrious
                                                        Chemicalkinetics Jan 16, 2010 12:32 PM


                                                        I don't think can tell from your dimension. I assume you mean you have a knife that is 23 cm long (not 23mm) and 8.9cm (89mm) deep. The dimension does not fit any listed on the webpage.


                                                        Given that the spine is only 1.5mm, then I am guessing it is a slicer (片刀), and since it is Stainless it has to be KF1911 or KF1912, but the length and depth do not match your dimension, so I am not sure.

                                                        Hey Paul, so you like it even it is a stainless steel knife? Now, you suddenly swing me back to the stainless camp. You see. Paul. Have you ever had a Dexter-Russell Chinese chef's knife? Dexter Chinese Chef's knife is actually highly regarded among Chinese home cooks and chefs in Chinatown, especially in the San Francisco area. It is not a great slicer, but it is a very good all-purpose knife. Basically, you can prepare more meal without switching out of that knife.

                                                        1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                          Paulustrious Jan 17, 2010 04:41 AM

                                                          Confusing my units. Sorry - Hubble would never have made it with my design. It is a slicer. I prefer stainless. Maybe the edge would be better in carbon steel, but it really is sharp enough. I give it a few swipes on a fine water stone every few days and that leaves and edge good enough to shave the hairs off my arm.
                                                          I don't mind the 'hassle' of switching blades. I take a perverse pleasure in drawing another Shun from the knife block.

                                                          I'll take a photo of the cleaver - not that that will help you, but it will at least prove it exists.

                                                          1. re: Paulustrious
                                                            Chemicalkinetics Jan 17, 2010 08:56 AM


                                                            Don't worry. NASA made unit conversion error before.

                                                            How much did you pay for your CCK stainless steel knife in Canadian dollar? You bought it from the actual store, right? I am curious.

                                                            1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                              Paulustrious Jan 17, 2010 12:06 PM

                                                              I think I paid $50 including tax - that in itself was odd in that the price posted was the price I paid.

                                                              1. re: Paulustrious
                                                                Chemicalkinetics Jan 17, 2010 02:19 PM

                                                                ??? Why is it odd that the price posted is the price you paid?

                                                                1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                                  Paulustrious Jan 18, 2010 03:04 AM

                                                                  In Canada the posted prices are normally before tax, much like the US. I think this is primarily because the US states and the Canadian provinces have their own tax regime ( which is additional to the the federal tax).

                                                                  This is completely different to the UK where the price including tax must be displayed.

                                                                  Anyway, back to the knifeSo a complete remeasure...

                                                                  Width approx 20.4 cm = 8"
                                                                  Depth 9cm

                                                                  The width screw up was me multiplying 8 by 2.54 in my head, and in the process the 8 x .04 became 3 rather that .3. This was then compounded by my saying mm instead of cm. All in all, pretty pathetic for an ex-engineer.

                                                                  This makes it a KF1812. Thanks and sorry for wasting your time and rosetime.

                                                                  1. re: Paulustrious
                                                                    Chemicalkinetics Jan 19, 2010 06:45 AM


                                                                    $50 is not dirt cheap. It is much cheaper than many Japanese made Chinese chef's knives, but it is only slightly cheaper than other infamous brands like Wusthof and Henckels.



                                                                    Do you think it is a good buy for you? In other words, do you get your money worth? Thanks.

                                                                    1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                                      Paulustrious Jan 19, 2010 09:19 AM

                                                                      Hi XXXX

                                                                      Yes, I am using it as much as any other knife I have and slightly less than my vegetable peeler. US ChowHounders represent prices before tax. So the 'price' of the knife is $50 / 1.14 = $44 CAN = $42 US.

                                                                      I don't claim this is cheap, but it seems reasonable value for this 'cutting edge' technology.

                                                                      1. re: Paulustrious
                                                                        Chemicalkinetics Jan 19, 2010 09:57 AM


                                                                        Heh heh heh. It is good that you know my "real" name now. I know you were referring to CAN dollar, but somehow I thought the USD to CAN is much closer, but I guess I am wrong. I guess $50 CAN ($42 US) **including** tax is not that bad.

                                                                        I am surprised that you use a vegetable peeler more than any other knives.

                                                                        1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                                          Paulustrious Jan 19, 2010 12:31 PM

                                                                          I may have misled you once again. The tax rate is 14% so I was dividing by 1.14 to get the pre-tax price, the ones normally quoted by Americans / web sites etc. The dollar exchange is about 0.97.

                                                                          When people look at an item on amazon.co.uk the price given (effectively by law) includes 15% VAT. The prices shown by Amazon.com do not include federal, state or city tax.

                                                                          1. re: Paulustrious
                                                                            Chemicalkinetics Jan 19, 2010 12:52 PM


                                                                            I see. In that case, it is close to $48.5 in USD. Most of the Amazon.com products do not include taxes because tax does not apply for pure online stores. I don't pay tax buying from Amazon.com. Do Canadians have to pay tax for online purchases?

                                                                            1. re: Paulustrious
                                                                              Chemicalkinetics Jan 16, 2013 07:55 PM


                                                                              I finally had the chance to visit CCK shop in Toronto and I think I may have bought a stainless steel knife very similar to yours. Mine is 20.5 cm long, 9 cm wide. The spine at tip is 1.5 mm thick, and 2.3 at the heel. Based on the knife dimension, yours is definitely the KF1912 knife if it is wood handle or KF1812 if it has a steel handle.


                                                                              I also bought mine at $50.

                                                                              2 years have seen passed. Now the US-Canada dollar conversion rate is essentially 1-to-1. Your VAT is still high at 13%, but I guess that must have droped from the 14% you wrote about.

                                                                          2. re: Paulustrious
                                                                            rosetown Jan 19, 2010 01:23 PM


                                                                            LOL, ' cutting edge' doesn't get any better when employing a double-entendre assuming this meets the definition. If it doesn't meet the definition you still know what I mean.


                                                            2. re: Paulustrious
                                                              rosetown Jan 16, 2010 01:11 PM

                                                              Paul, like Chem, I'm confused. Since it has a 2 stamped on the blade it has to be a KFxxx2. And your measurements don't match anything on the website. Does the spine taper from the handle to the end of the knife? Have you measured twice? I often make very simple mistakes like reading the measuring tape upside down repeatably mistaking a 6 for a 9 or vice versa. Damn when I cut a perfectly good piece of wood short!

                                                              Like Chem, I'm curious about your experience with that SS blade. What do you like about it?


                                                              1. re: rosetown
                                                                Chemicalkinetics Jan 16, 2010 01:20 PM

                                                                Paul and Rose,

                                                                If I have to guess, I am guessing it is a KF1902. If Paul has a KF 1302, then he won't need anyone to identify that, since the black blade is very unique. Since it is a thin blade knife, stainless steel and has a "2" on it, then it is KF1902.


                                                                *Edit* Sorry. You said you have SS handle. In that case, my guess is a KF1812.

                                                        2. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                          rosetown Jan 16, 2010 10:36 AM

                                                          Today I conducted a rough experiment slicing a bunch of celery (100mm in diameter) with 4 knives, KF1102, KF1301, Sabatier SS chef knife, Henckel SS chef knife.

                                                          I did 2 passes with each knife - 1st pass trying to use the weight of the knife only. 2nd pass intentionally adding weight.

                                                          1st pass:
                                                          KF1102 cut through on the 1st push only stroke
                                                          KF1301 cut through on the 1st push only stroke
                                                          Sabatier couldn't cut through the highest of the many stocks
                                                          Henckel couldn't cut through the highest of the many stocks
                                                          2nd pass:
                                                          KF1102 cut through before the 1st push only stroke completed
                                                          KF1301 cut through before the 1st push only stroke completed
                                                          Sabatier took 4 push pulls ie: 4 pushes 4 pulls
                                                          Henckel took 4 push pulls ie: 4 pushes 4 pulls

                                                          I couldn't tell the difference in the performance of the 1102 vs 1301.
                                                          I preferred the Sabatier to the Henckel.

                                                          Admittedly a very crude experiment.


                                                          1. re: rosetown
                                                            Chemicalkinetics Jan 16, 2010 12:19 PM


                                                            Did you close your eyes when you did the experiment? We have to be sure that you are not unconsciously bias :P

                                                            1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                              rosetown Jan 16, 2010 01:14 PM

                                                              I'm not about to handle sharp objects blindfolded. :)

                                                              1. re: rosetown
                                                                Chemicalkinetics Jan 16, 2010 01:17 PM


                                                                If you wear this and this:



                                                                then you will fine.

                                                                1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                                                  rosetown Jan 16, 2010 01:36 PM

                                                                  ^^^^ ROTFLMHO
                                                                  I'll be very careful instead.

                            2. Chemicalkinetics Jan 16, 2010 01:04 PM

                              Ok, I just called the CCK in Canada and asked him a few questions.

                              Me: Are 桑刀 (KF130X) thinner than 片刀 (KF110X)?
                              Dude: Yes

                              Me: Are 桑刀 (KF130X) made from different steel than 片刀 (KF110X)?
                              Dude: You mean the stainless steel vs carbon steel?
                              Me: No, you have normal steel for both 桑刀 (KF130X) and 片刀 (KF110X), are they made differently?
                              Dude: What kind of difference do you mean?
                              Me: I read on internet that the quality of the steel is different.
                              Dude: No, there is no difference. I don't know what you mean.

                              Me: Are 菜刀 (KF190X) thicker than 小片刀 (KF191X)?
                              Dude: Yes

                              Me: For a normal home cook, is it true that 菜刀 (KF190X) a better fit?
                              Dude: Yes, probably

                              Me: Which one is your best selling model?
                              Dude: There is no really best selling one, they are all good. It just depends which knife fits the person better.

                              Me: Is carbon steel better than stainless steel in term of sale?
                              Dude: It just depends personal taste. There is no best selling model or knife.

                              I didn't feel like asking him any more question. I actually want to ask him about the exact thickness of each knife, but I am pretty sure he will be very unhappy if I ask that question.

                              Anyway, as you can read, he really didn't answer the last two questions. At this point, I am more than ever confused about which knife to buy. I don't mean I am confused about the information. By clarifying some of my questions, now some of the knives become more competitive, so now I have more choice. :P In regarding the steel quality, it is possible that there is a real difference and this guy (probably a sale) on the phone just does not know. Can someone call CCK in Hong Kong ask the someone important to come out and answer for us?

                              11 Replies
                              1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                rosetown Jan 16, 2010 04:03 PM

                                Chem, I think he was telling the truth regarding the quality of the carbon steel being the same between the KF110x series and the KF130x series.

                                The differences regarding my 1102 vs the 1301:
                                - heavier and thus has more metal.
                                - nicely, but not perfectly, machined , top to bottom and right to left, to remove surface nicks.
                                - lighter and thus has less metal
                                - minimal machining right to left to remove surface nicks for top half of the blade
                                - top half of blade cheaply blackened to compensate for lack of expensive machining and and to minimize rust.

                                - From the middle ot the blades to the cutting edge they both have the same quality of machining, left to right.
                                - For the last 3/4 inch both are machined vertically to the bevel - same quality.
                                - The bevel - same quality.

                                I think, that some have confused the notion of shortcuts in the manufacturing with the quality of the steel. IMHO,CCK reduced the cost of manufacturing the KF13xx series without compromising performance. Remarkable.

                                1. re: rosetown
                                  Chemicalkinetics Jan 16, 2010 04:21 PM


                                  Oh. I see. Oh, maybe you are right about different finish (polishing) vs different steel quality. Dexter Russell also did advertisement like that too.

                                  Dexter 08210 Chinese chef's knife cost more than Dexter 08040.



                                  I was willing to pay more for a better knife. At first, I was given the impression that 08210 is sharper and better than 08040. However, after communicating with a Dexter-Russell product specialist, it appears the two knives are made from the same steel and tempered exactly the same. The difference is that the more expensive 08210 knives are hand-sharpened to a greater detail and have a compound bevel, I believe.

                                  If the two CCK lines have the same steel, then I will definitely get the 130X series. Even if they are different, I was leaning toward the 130X because a knife with unsuitable geometry for me (like 110X) is not going to work at the end. Thanks Duane.

                                  PS: By the way, I was not really serious when I said "can someone call CKK in Hong Kong...."

                                  1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                    rosetown Jan 17, 2010 06:50 PM


                                    Just a notion. Looking through the CCK website did you notice that all the carbon steel offerings, with blackened surfaces, are targeted to the industrial/commercial users. Choppers, butcher knives , etc. These are no-nonsense folks that want a product that delivers performance at a low price point. This leads me to believe that the KF13xx series was targeted by CCK to the same market. I suspect that it is a myth on various websites that suggest it is a home market cleaver. Still, many home users are purchasing KF13xx series because it meets their requirements. Just food for thought, :)


                                    1. re: rosetown
                                      Chemicalkinetics Jan 17, 2010 07:17 PM


                                      You are 100% correct. I think I was being confusing early on when I kept on saying KF130X knives are easier for home usage. I only meant KF130X are much easier to be adapted into a home kitchen than KF110X, but KF130X knives are not residential. First, most Chinese home cooks have converted to stainless steel. This is not only true for Chinese, but everywhere. Home cooks who prefer carbon steel are far and in between. Just look at our department stores, like Macy, or high end culinary stores, like Williams Sonoma, you will have a hard time finding carbon steel knives. I would even argue that only half of the Chinese chefs in Chinatown use carbon steel if not less.

                                      The real residential knives on CCK websites are: KF190X (菜刀) These knives are in between a slicer and a chopper. They can pretty much handle most things in a residential kitchen. Dexter-Russell S5198 is such a knife. This is also one of the questions I asked CCK in Canada and the person on the phone admitted that KF190X are most suitable for home cooks. The coming close one will be the KF191X (小片刀) small slicers. They are supposed to be as thin as KF130X but made of stainless steel. All the other ones are very much restaurant chefs/butchers knives.

                                      KF1700, for example, is a very flat knife, which can be use as a knife but also as a mean to create Dim Sum dough skin, like this:


                                      If I have to use only one knife, I will still use either a Dexter S5198 or a CCK 1903 or 1904. KF130X and KF191X look like will be very awesome and I will get one if not two, but they lack the ability to cover the tougher jobs.

                                      Thanks for correcting me.

                                      1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                        rosetown Jan 17, 2010 07:44 PM


                                        My intent was not to correct you. I just found it interesting. True, most now prefer stainless. It's difficult to find carbon.

                                        I have a carbon steel wok and a set of carbon steel skillets. I'm into carbon steel. What can i say. :)

                                        Still, it interests me, like you, what CCK has to offer in their stainless steel line. Do some of the blades have profiles similar to the carbon steel offerings.

                                        Edit: in your long post, I missed the fact the some of the CCK SS slicers are supposed to have a similar profile to the CS slicers.


                                        1. re: rosetown
                                          Chemicalkinetics Jan 17, 2010 08:47 PM


                                          I have not asked CCK to confirm the thickness of KF191X being the same as KF110X. Based on their Chinese names, they should be very similar. They have the same name. I think KF191X should be about the same thickness as KF130X.

                                          I have a carbon steel wok and many cast iron skillet and dutch ovens.

                                          So, have you placed an order on "Chef Knife to Go"? Those two slicers are all gone now.

                                          1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                            rosetown Jan 18, 2010 07:19 AM

                                            "So, have you placed an order on "Chef Knife to Go"? Those two slicers are all gone now."

                                            I think this was a conversation that you had with Deez. Remember, I purchased mine from a different source. :)


                                            1. re: rosetown
                                              Chemicalkinetics Jan 18, 2010 06:00 PM

                                              Oh, yeah. You have gotten two knives already. I get confused. Ha ha ha.

                                              1. re: rosetown
                                                Paulustrious Jan 19, 2010 04:32 AM

                                                The domain name 'chefknifetogo.com' has expired and is now available.


                                                1. re: Paulustrious
                                                  PegS Jan 19, 2010 09:05 AM

                                                  Worked for me. It's actually "chefknives..."

                                                  I'm afraid I may have been the one to buy their last 1303 of this batch. I was going to run to Chinatown instead but the price seemed decent enough to avoid the hassle (especially since it's raining like the dickens).

                                                  Looks like they're going to be loading the CCK BBQ Chopper and Bone Chopper soon too!

                                                  1. re: PegS
                                                    Paulustrious Jan 19, 2010 09:28 AM

                                                    Thanks. I think I'll pass on the bone chopper. When I reach that stage I'll go with my 12 inch sliding mitre saw.

                                                    (I have used a sawzall in the past to dismember something)

                                2. r
                                  RGC1982 Jan 17, 2010 12:45 PM

                                  I agree with the idea of pushing the foods together first.

                                  Frankly, I am not a fan of doing two things, although I do them all the time. One of them is using my very sharp and large chef's knives to scoop food. The other is using a chef's knife to flatten garlic. Let's not even discuss the famous whack into the avocado pit.

                                  My knife skills are pretty good, and I have been cooking for 35 years. I am not afraid of knives, and use both a big twelve inch Sabatier carbon steel, and 10 inch Shun Elite, and other very sharp knives with regularity. I just know that if you do some things enough times, you will eventually make a mistake. I saw Alton Brown use a bench scraper on his show, and mentioned having cut his own hand, If I were doing a lot of prep, I might do the same, but for now, I just move much more slowly and carefully while doing it.

                                  Getting back to the hacking of the avocado pit while the half avocado is in your hand: On Fred's Cutlery forum, I read where one of the posters actually nearly sliced right through the pit while in his/her hand with their incredibly sharp Japanese gyoto. That was enough for me to consider putting it down on the cutting to do it from now on.

                                  3 Replies
                                  1. re: RGC1982
                                    rosetown Jan 17, 2010 06:59 PM

                                    l'll clean my prep area, take a deep breath, do a sign of the cross, and recite 3 Hail Marys. Then I will start using these blade reverently. :)


                                    1. re: rosetown
                                      Chemicalkinetics Jan 17, 2010 07:28 PM


                                      Many believe that it is safer to move your hand toward the knife instead of moving the knife toward your hand. This is the same argument why one should keep the paring knife essentially stationary when paring a fruit.

                                      Personally, I scoop the foods by moving my knife. As the knife move underneath the foods, it will scoop up most of the foods, but at some point it just start to push the rest of the food around. Then I stop moving the knife and use my free hand to push the rest on the knife.

                                      1. re: Chemicalkinetics
                                        rosetown Jan 18, 2010 07:37 AM


                                        Thanks for the advice. Mostly using the 1301 on small and big stuff. I'm slowly coming to an understanding of the character of this slicer. I dream of losing part of a finger to this beast. So, total respect.

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