668535 Thu Nov 19 21:43:18 -0800 2009 70 29 Not About Food 0 5195627 Okay this is scary. http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local-beat/Time-In-Prison--70426052.html?yhp=1 The Lehigh Pub in Bethlehem Pa is pretty hardcore apparently. Hope the link works for awhile for people to read. You can't make this stuff up. Thu Nov 19 21:43:18 -0800 2009 184593 givemecarbs 1 5195857 The bill was only $73 for 8 people? And the argument was over a $16 tip? Fri Nov 20 04:17:27 -0800 2009 5195627 13619 Sharuf 2 5195877 This incident REALLY went viral! I've seen it on four other food related sites in the last day. Can't wait for the lawsuits for false arrest, and false imprisonment to be filed. Somebody's going to get rich. A lot of somebodies are going to lose jobs. Fri Nov 20 04:35:40 -0800 2009 5195857 184517 RedTop 1 5195873 They'll probably charge the owner with fraud for charging services that they did not receive. Fri Nov 20 04:34:01 -0800 2009 5195627 23758 Withnail42 1 5195933 I just read this and had to come to chow to see what people think. I'm sorry, an HOUR for wings and a salad to arrive? Having to get your own silver and napkins??? waitress? what freakin waitress? I wouldn't have tipped either. Fri Nov 20 05:31:25 -0800 2009 5195627 65780 jujuthomas 1 5195987 Theft? Ridiculous. If anything, this is a civil matter (however, I don't think it even rises to that level). They never even left the premises, but simply refused to pay a gratuity b/c of terrible service. The owner even conceded that the service was slow and offered to comp some of the items on the bill. A simple case of everyone, including the police, over-reacting. The charges will most certainly be dismissed. As a side note, $73 bill for 8 people is ridiculously cheap - sounds like maybe they got the quality of foor & service they paid for. Fri Nov 20 06:10:02 -0800 2009 5195627 71241 lynnlato 2 5196524 This place is fairly near me and I'm sure not patronizing it. I don't know too much about law and the police and all but the article said “Obviously we would have liked for the patron and the establishment to have worked this out without getting the police involved,” said Deputy Police Commissioner Stuart Bedics. I'm not sure how much discretion the police have in these matters. Sounds like they weren't too thrilled about being called. Fri Nov 20 10:22:53 -0800 2009 5195987 184593 givemecarbs 3 5196885 You're right, I can't blame them for not being thrilled. They often get called into situations needlessly. Its a shame. I am familiar w/ PA law, and sometimes the cops file the wrong charges. As is probably the case here. The DA will likely drop the charges or the judge will dismiss it. I was just thinking... I wonder why only two people in the party of 8 were charged? And the tip amount is more than 18% of the bill. There must be much more to the story than what's been reported. Fri Nov 20 12:59:02 -0800 2009 5196524 71241 lynnlato 4 5197986 Correct - I should think. A restaurant bill is a contract. Refusing to pay a portion of a bill is a potential breach of contract which is settled in civil court. Heavens knows why the police should be involved. Sat Nov 21 05:52:49 -0800 2009 5196885 154622 Paulustrious 1 5196325 Something's not adding up here. The link said the bill was $73 and the gratuity was 18%, which would be around $13. Where did $16 come from? I smell a rat... Fri Nov 20 08:36:37 -0800 2009 5195627 92744 invinotheresverde 1 5196396 I hear ya invino, there’s probably more going on then they’re telling. What do you do in a situation like that? X% gratuity for parties x or more…why should I have to reward a lousy server with a big tip? Is there ever any negotiation? Sure, they can comp the meal, but does the server still get an x% tip? I don’t think jailtime is in order for something like this, that could have been worked out verbally. Sometimes it seems the system is designed to make criminals of us all. Fri Nov 20 09:11:12 -0800 2009 5195627 233294 cuccubear 1 5196644 I, too, as a restaurateur, will be following this case very closely. It could potentially set a precedent for restaurants that impose an auto-gratuity. I just can't believe the owner or manager of this place called the police and didn't just lump the loss of the auto-grat. The place is a pub; I haven't the slightest idea how eight people ate and drank for $73 -- perhaps they weren't drinking, but that's still a ridiculously low per-person rate for a night out at the pub. Heck, when we go out for burgers and drinks at a pub, after all's said and done, the bill's closer to $30-40 per person because of the drinks. I appreciate that the owner/manager stuck to their guns in what appears to be a battle that became charged with emotion - the autograt, as indicated on the menu, is combined into the bill and is due and owing at the end of the meal. The customer said "I ain't gonna pay it." -- But unless someone's brandishing a gun in the restaurant, for goodness sakes don't call the police! Let the few dollars go out the door with a customer who's trouble and who's not going to return. At least in my state, the police file an incident report with the State Liquor Authority *each and every time* a squad is called to a licensed (liquor license) premises. I certainly don't see the wisdom in putting a mark on one's license over less than twenty dollars. Of course, in ten years of business, we've encountered customers who dispute not only the autograt, but portions of their bill. Of course, those customers who've been wronged are respected -- typically given a full or generous comp. Customers who're just plain cheap -- we let 'em go and hope never to see them again. Some customers are just so completely *wrong* -- it'd be really nice to get our side of the story affirmed by law enforcement -- it's just not worth it, though. A web search revealed a business-news page that says the current ownership took over the Lehigh pub in May of '09. Sadly, all that remains of the page is the abstract. The rest of the hits are filled with the story of the horrible bar that had patrons handcuffed... and the comments are overwhelmingly in favor of the customers. I wonder if there are enough people who're tired of tip cheapskates, for one reason or another, to keep the Lehigh Pub in business. If the reaction on the internet is any indication, the place's days are numbered. Again, I can't wait until this hits a court of law. Fri Nov 20 11:21:47 -0800 2009 5195627 270888 shaogo 2 5196684 "the autograt, as indicated on the menu, is combined into the bill and is due and owing at the end of the meal." Whoa... I'm a consumer. My understanding is that a gratuity or tip is always expected, but can NEVER be demanded. No basis in law (at least in my state). Fri Nov 20 11:35:32 -0800 2009 5196644 184517 RedTop 3 5196721 You're of one opinion and I'm of another. The menu "offers" that parties of 6 or more will pay a service charge -- the diner "accepts" the offer by placing an order with the server. Isn't a binding contract all about offer and acceptance? I'd hazard a guess that case law is lacking -- that's why it's going to be so interesting when a court of law examines whether or not an autograt may be rejected, legally, by the customer. The judge's decision will settle a whole lot of arguments, on this site and on others! Fri Nov 20 11:49:51 -0800 2009 5196684 270888 shaogo 4 5196761 In making that offer, the owner/server contracted to provide a service they failed to provide. Contract broken. I fully sympathize with your complaint about people who abuse a situation solely b/c they are cheap. But it doesn't sound as if that applies in this case. And for those questioning the price, the article says it was a happy hour. Cheap grub and cheap beers could mean $73 for 8 people. Fri Nov 20 12:07:02 -0800 2009 5196721 186923 Cachetes 5 5196890 You are right about it potentially being a contractual agreement. However, the basic necessary elements of a contract require an offer, acceptance and an exchange of money/goods. Did the customer know of the added gratuity for larger parties before they ordered or only at check presenting time? Lots of issues that need to be sorted out. Either way, if its a breach of contract issue, that is a civil matter not a criminal one. Fri Nov 20 13:02:09 -0800 2009 5196761 71241 lynnlato 6 5196898 I have no clue if it's contractual or not, only that if it is contractual, then it seems as if the tippers were not the ones to break the contract. You clearly know a lot more about this than I, so I defer to your much better judgment! Fri Nov 20 13:07:02 -0800 2009 5196890 186923 Cachetes 7 5196916 I was agreeing with you - not sure if I articulated that clearly. :-) Yep, sounds like a hot mess of a situation. Wouldn't it be awesome if they could appear before the Chowhound Court of Appeals, Judge Judy-style. They could each present their sides and then we could vote on who holds the majority of fault. Ha! Fri Nov 20 13:16:05 -0800 2009 5196898 71241 lynnlato 8 5196929 You were very clear, it was my response that was wobbly. As for Judge Judy, I love it! In this case, I think she'd say "$17?!? $17?!? You should both be ashamed of yourselves!" before reaming the server out for being irresponsible. Fri Nov 20 13:20:50 -0800 2009 5196916 186923 Cachetes 9 5197227 Oh you know Judge Judy would get all ugly over this one - it would make for some entertaining tv, no doubt! I just saw that the Yelp listing for this pub is inundated with negative posts aimed at the pub. Check it out: http://www.yelp.com/biz/lehigh-pub-bethlehem Fri Nov 20 16:07:57 -0800 2009 5196929 71241 lynnlato 10 5198121 wow...the vitriol is severe with thre ones not deleted. Sat Nov 21 07:22:50 -0800 2009 5197227 11290 jfood 11 5198539 Indeed. Seems as though everyone is jumping on the bandwagon to run this place into the ground. Mob mentality maybe. Its interesting to watch though. Sat Nov 21 11:18:55 -0800 2009 5198121 71241 lynnlato 6 5196907 Great points, lynnlato and Cachetes. lynn, wouldn't it be theft of services, a misdemeanor, if the "service charge" is indeed construed as part of the bill. It's interesting to look at this as a contract that was broken when the server basically abandoned the table, leaving them to fend for themselves. But at what *time* did the wait become "unreasonable," or a "hardship" for the diners... isn't something like that required? Fri Nov 20 13:11:55 -0800 2009 5196890 270888 shaogo 7 5197216 Its all pretty gray, shaogo. There's a lot we don't know. I really haven't heard anything to justify a criminal charge, IMHO. From what's been reported, the customers never left the premises - and to allege that they stole a tip, well that's just a contradiction of terms. Again, just my humble opinion. A lot would weigh on whether the pub staff told the customers of their mandatory tipping policy for larger parties when they were seated (which I doubt). But I really think its a civil matter and not a criminal one. After all how can you steal services you never received? Just a thought. :) Fri Nov 20 16:02:25 -0800 2009 5196907 71241 lynnlato 8 5197848 Interesting discussion regarding the legal issue(s). Two things that are horrifying to me about this: 1) *Somebody* has to pay for the man-hours represented by the police officers' time spent on this, as well as that of the DA's staff and court employees; and 2) While the police officers answered this call, did someone in the city who needed assistance more urgently go unaided? So far as I know, most major city police forces in the U.S. are understaffed. Whichever side wins this legally, it's disturbing to me that neither side seemed mature enough to attempt a compromise. Sat Nov 21 01:23:36 -0800 2009 5197216 1104013 Normandie 9 5198197 I'm guessing that in most jurisdicitions, a good chunk of police calls fall into the category of situations that could have been avoided and aren't terribly urgent. If it's not an unpaid restaurant bill, it's someone calling because their neighbor's stereo is too loud or someone else calling 911 because their mailbox was bashed in by drunk joyriders overnight. Sat Nov 21 08:13:31 -0800 2009 5197848 248284 taos 10 5199358 True, taos. Not that that would justify in my mind this proprietor and these patrons not being able to come to a compromise without calling on the police, but...very true, what you point out. So shame on some of those other folks, too! ;-) Sat Nov 21 20:24:47 -0800 2009 5198197 1104013 Normandie 5 5197249 They specifically said they refilled their own 'sodas' due to poor service. So no beer included in that tab. Fri Nov 20 16:19:17 -0800 2009 5196761 277493 DallasDude 4 5196908 There is a difference between service charge and gratuity. By definition gratuity cannot be mandatory (from Merriam Webster: gratuity = something given voluntarily or beyond obligation usually for some service). If a menu states there is a service charge for large parties, then it's fair enough to be expected to pay it, and not paying would be stealing, but if a menu states that gratuity (or even "mandatory gratuity") will be added for parties over 6, gratuity payment is still at customer's discretion. There is precedent already set in NY: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/15/nyregion/15tipper.html?_r=3&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1258750816-hf8Dr29YTYHeaFN4x9Xcrw Fri Nov 20 13:12:39 -0800 2009 5196721 59801 anne7134 4 5197024 I hope my post didn't offend you, shaogo, I didn't mean it to. I've had five kids work in food service, one still in it. I've heard horror stories from them about being stiffed on a tip. I've heard outrageous stories from them about receiving "legendary" tips. Because they have experience in the business, they know there is no such thing as an autograt. That's just the way it is, in life. Fri Nov 20 14:02:04 -0800 2009 5196721 184517 RedTop 1 5196715 If it was me, after about 10 minutes (or 15 if I was feeling generous), I'd track down the manager. And if I didn't get immediate attention (or a damned good reason for the delay), I would have made quite a deal about leaving. Not sreaming or anything, but making sure that everybody else in the room saw us get up, put on our coats, etc. If I'd been drinking and was just waiting for the food, I would have said to the server, manager, or whoever: "If I don't have the check for those drinks in two minutes, I'm leaving without paying for them, either." (This more to get their attention than anything else -- I wouldn't steal from them). Even if the place is crowded, there's no excuse for the server's not checking in on the table, explaining and apologising for the delay, and maybe offering some sort of compensation. Fri Nov 20 11:47:55 -0800 2009 5195627 11300 Muskrat 2 5197928 indeed. my assumption is that the autograt for large parties is to compensate for the additional service required for several people, not for the simple parking of X number of butts. Sat Nov 21 04:37:58 -0800 2009 5196715 153184 im_nomad 1 5197082 I'm assuming that $73 was this couple's share of the bill and that the other couples paid the 18%, as they were not arrested. Fri Nov 20 14:28:06 -0800 2009 5195627 11995 pikawicca 2 5197225 agreed. sounds like an 8 top with seperate bills(who knows how many) and that the other parties just sucked it up and paid it. To that I say, good going to this couple! fwiw, $73 sounds like A round of drinks for 8 people!lol Fri Nov 20 16:06:43 -0800 2009 5197082 39457 nkeane 3 5197846 If there were separate bills, then a large party autograt wouldn't apply. Right? Sat Nov 21 01:17:59 -0800 2009 5197225 13619 Sharuf 4 5198214 Sorry, Sharuf. In most if not all restaurants a large party autogratuity gets split up as many times as there are bills. Sat Nov 21 08:23:29 -0800 2009 5197846 270888 shaogo 1 5197245 I read their reviews on yelp, and this oub is being raked over the coals hard. However, more disturbing is the fact that the place got horrible reviews before this incident. Horrible. I suspect this will put them out of business. Fri Nov 20 16:17:29 -0800 2009 5195627 277493 DallasDude 2 5197840 You can never tell about these things DallasDude. Perhaps the pub will get an uptick in business. Or no effect at all. Perhaps people from Penna (like me) have some strange ideas. There is a thread on the Penna board right now about the pub at the new wegman's supermarket in Collegeville. The policy for dining at the pub is no tipping but many people tip anyway. http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/663471 Sat Nov 21 00:56:02 -0800 2009 5197245 184593 givemecarbs 1 5197887 The manager sounds fishy. I believe he said he was willing to comp their food. This I assume would have been more than the 16 dollar tip. Yet he called the cops on a lower amount. This after acknowledging that they had bad service. Sounds like he's trying to cover his own stupidity. Sat Nov 21 03:07:43 -0800 2009 5195627 23758 Withnail42 2 5205873 That's exactly what I was thinking, too. He was willing to comp the $73 but called the police for the $18 tip? How much did this incident cost the tax payers? I think he should be charged for that, too. Tue Nov 24 14:10:49 -0800 2009 5197887 39874 chowser 1 5197929 Is Bethlehem, Pa a sleepy little place or something ? I know that police have to respond to calls, but handcuffing and taking into custody over something like this seems a little bit over the top and makes me wonder what else might be going on. I've seen cases around here where people have jumped out on a cab fare and an argument / police call ensued, and people weren't taken into custody. Charged and given a promise to appear in court, yes. The lock-ups and the handcuffs are reserved for the more dangerous folks. In any event, unless people were running out on the entire bill or causing a security concern, calling the police to begin with is ridiculous, and this place should be ashamed of itself for using up much needed resources like this. No better than the chicken nugget lady calling 911. Quite honestly i'd be a bit surprised to see an auto-grat in a pub to begin with (and I never have), which is typically a place where larger groups tend to gather anyway. Seems like a good way to alienate a lot of clientele. Sat Nov 21 04:45:04 -0800 2009 5195627 153184 im_nomad 1 5198176 This guy named Chuy tried that autograt stuff at a taco truck the other day and I refused. He said "I know where you live cabron!"and I said "Bring it on pendejo!"This autograt crap is really getting out of hand. Sat Nov 21 08:00:51 -0800 2009 5195627 140140 mrbigshotno.1 2 5198270 Being from Dallas, that my friend is hilarious. Sat Nov 21 08:47:11 -0800 2009 5198176 277493 DallasDude 1 5198553 I smell a lawsuit! Sat Nov 21 11:27:31 -0800 2009 5195627 54116 gryphonskeeper 2 5198585 Who would be sued? The restaurant didn't arrest anyone. They don't have that ability. They called the police and police arrested the pair. I'm not a lawyer but the only party open for a lawsuit is the police and I think there are probably laws that give the police a lot of leeway on who they arrest. Sat Nov 21 11:47:45 -0800 2009 5198553 10195 KTinNYC 3 5198700 I'm guessing it might fly under the whole "pain and suffering" damages type deal. If the case is not found to have any merit, or if the restaurant was found to have misrepresented themselves to police or something, it could happen. Getting carted off in handcuffs in a police car isn't an everyday activity for most people. Sat Nov 21 12:53:51 -0800 2009 5198585 153184 im_nomad 4 5198766 I can call the police on anyone and if there we no laws broken the police would make no arrest so the restaurant owner seems immune. It was the police that made the arrest. Police arrest people that never get prosecuted and the police don't get sued. So I ask, who would the pair sue? Sat Nov 21 13:33:57 -0800 2009 5198700 10195 KTinNYC 5 5198895 well, while I can't really understand why the police would have immediately arrested them in this situation...................... there is a difference between someone calling the police legitimately, and making something up/exaggerating and calling the police. Lets just say someone knocks on my door one day, and I let them into my porch and immediately start screaming and calling the police that someone has broken into my home. The police might arrest them based on my statement, and via the investigation they find out the visitor was innocent, and I simply lied for whatever reason. I'd think the visitor would have the grounds to sue me for making their life pretty miserable for a while, and the police could charge me for falsifying a statement. Also, police have power of arrest yes. They have to have reasonable grounds to do so. The police are not the courts however, so whether an offense makes it to trial is not something they are legally responsible for. Sat Nov 21 15:07:42 -0800 2009 5198766 153184 im_nomad 5 5199040 Police who arrest an innocent person are immune from civil liability under the doctrine of governmental tort immunity (unless the arrest falls under an exception to such immunity, such as the deprivation of civil rights under color of law). But a civilian who has another person arrested by falsely accusing that person of a crime may be liable for false imprisonment. Each state's law is different, but In Taylor v. Johnson, 796 So.2d 11 (La. App. 3 Cir. 2001), a pharmacist believed that a prescription for narcotics was a forgery. He called the police and stalled the customer until their arrival. The police arrested the customer, who subsequently proved that the prescription was legitimate. The trial court found the pharmacy liable for false imprisonment; the appellate court reversed. Even if there's no cause of action for false imprisonment, the customers may have viable claims for defamation, intentional infliction of emotional distress, and other causes of action. Sat Nov 21 16:40:43 -0800 2009 5198766 58743 alanbarnes 6 5199110 Louisiana law???? :-) Sat Nov 21 17:31:34 -0800 2009 5199040 71241 lynnlato 7 5199144 Hey, it's what I could come up with in 30 seconds on Lexis. Sat Nov 21 17:55:52 -0800 2009 5199110 58743 alanbarnes 6 5199728 Thanks for the explanation. Sun Nov 22 06:07:09 -0800 2009 5199040 10195 KTinNYC 4 5198828 Let's say that the pair handcuffed and arrested decide to file a civil suit. (or two). And let's say that they hire an attorney who just so happens to be "influential" with every circuit court judge in the Bethlehem jurisdiction--and happens to be a terrific lawyer as well. And lets say that this attorney brings the false arrest/false imprisonment/defamation of character cases up before one or more juries... Result: multi-million dollar awards for the plaintiffs. This I would do! Sat Nov 21 14:20:56 -0800 2009 5198700 184517 RedTop 5 5198847 I may be the densest person on the board but who is the pair suing? The restaurant owner never falsely imprisoned the pair so he can't be sued. So that leaves the police, right? But if the police felt that a law was broken, theft of services, then they have the right if not obligation to arrest the pair or at least issue a citation. Sat Nov 21 14:33:54 -0800 2009 5198828 10195 KTinNYC 6 5198919 From experience I can say that what can happen is that someone will just try to sue everyone (owner, police, server, handcuff manufacturer) who is even tangentially involved in hopes of getting the insurance companies to each kick in a little bit each to make it go away. Sat Nov 21 15:25:59 -0800 2009 5198847 186923 Cachetes 6 5199215 They have been falsely accused of theft (no service, ergo no theft of which to speak) I see $$ in their future. Sat Nov 21 18:39:15 -0800 2009 5198847 54116 gryphonskeeper 4 5199107 The restaurant can be held liable for the police carting them off in cuffs. Pain & suffering cannot be a damage by itself. It's all much ado about nothing. I'm pretty certain the courts will see that way as well. Sat Nov 21 17:30:08 -0800 2009 5198700 71241 lynnlato 1 5199190 I doubt that anyone can successfully sue the restaurant, or the police. But, ya know what? This is the worst PR for the restaurant and the lame local police that the poor arrested couple should feel vindicated. They've trashed the reputation of the restaurant, cast doubt on the judgment of the police department, and have a priceless story that they can dine out on for years to come. Sat Nov 21 18:20:05 -0800 2009 5195627 11995 pikawicca 1 5199636 I'm wondering if or when the pub will drops the charges. Sun Nov 22 04:06:02 -0800 2009 5195627 23758 Withnail42 1 5199687 This unpleasant situation could have been avoided if the customers and simply paid the bill with a credit card, then disputed the charge with their credit card company. Sun Nov 22 05:26:40 -0800 2009 5195627 11995 pikawicca 2 5199717 Not everyone has credit cards though. Sun Nov 22 05:55:43 -0800 2009 5199687 153184 im_nomad 2 5199798 However, there are people like them (and also like me) who say "this gratuity is wrong". I don't care if they are going to call the police. The service is a mockery. I'm going to refuse to pay. Let them do what they will. And, of course, something like this happens. Or you are ejected out the back door by an all-in wrestler. Sun Nov 22 07:19:04 -0800 2009 5199687 154622 Paulustrious 2 5205296 According to the Yelp listing, the restaurant does not accept credit cards. Tue Nov 24 11:06:22 -0800 2009 5199687 12622 Striver 1 5203226 At this point the who;e thing can go away if the restaurant drops the charges. As far as I know they haven't Mon Nov 23 13:48:39 -0800 2009 5195627 23758 Withnail42 2 5203755 If this is a criminal matter, the charges are brought first by the police, then by the prosecutor; the restaurant has nothing to do with "dropping" the charges. Mon Nov 23 17:04:51 -0800 2009 5203226 11995 pikawicca 3 5203793 except if they will not testify Sam Waterson will drop the charges. Mon Nov 23 17:18:19 -0800 2009 5203755 11290 jfood 4 5203863 You are so subversive, j. This matter would make for good TV drama -- imagine the outrage! Mon Nov 23 17:47:42 -0800 2009 5203793 11995 pikawicca 3 5204775 The police chief said that he hoped that the parties could come to an agreement on their own. This makes me think the that restaurant has some control in the matter. Tue Nov 24 06:51:14 -0800 2009 5203755 23758 Withnail42 1 5204987 Here is an update with more info on the incident: http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/20091124_Tip_refuseniks_may_see_charges_dropped.html The charges are expected to be dropped. Here is a quote from the link, in case the link not working: "I've never seen or heard of any circumstance like this," said Pat Conway, president of the Pennsylvania Restaurant Association, which represents 7,000 dining places. ". . . I'm surprised local authorities would even level charges." Tue Nov 24 08:32:15 -0800 2009 5195627 184593 givemecarbs 2 5205222 More importantly, I think, is that the DA said the charges would be dropped tomorrow when the arresting officer returns. He went on to acknowledge that gratuities are "generally volunteer payments": ""It's not worth prosecuting. Gratuities are generally volunteer payments," Northampton County District Attorney John Morganelli said yesterday, according to the Lehigh Valley Express-Times. The arresting officer is off today, but he'll formally withdraw the charges against John Wagner and Leslie Pope when he gets back, Capt. John Sarnicky said this morning." It'll be interesting to see if any retaliatory causes of action are pursued by the college kids. Tue Nov 24 10:37:44 -0800 2009 5204987 71241 lynnlato 1 5383440 As a server I'm REALLY, REALLY sick of the way people often treat servers. Why didn't anyone else on this board think that maybe these people may have exaggerated their "bad service" story a bit to justify their cheapness? Possibly the pub was understaffed because of coworkers calling in sick when they're really not. The server may have been forced to take on more tables than is appropriate. The kitchen may have been responsible for much of the delay, that has NOTHING to do with the server. Where I work these things happen all the time. Try telling your doctor that since you waited too long you refuse to pay! But you wouldn't say that because you RESPECT YOUR DOCTOR. The server is always in the middle between the kitchen, the guest, and the owner/manager and usually the one who gets screwed. The reason gratuities/service charges are added to larger groups is that customers should not be allowed to wield that much power - stiffing you on a really big check. Sun Feb 07 08:12:38 -0800 2010 5195627 1147027 BrianRIngram