665940 Mon Nov 09 16:26:54 -0800 2009 75 18 Manhattan 0 5168484 To me, the most important element in any sandwich is the bread, and the flaccid, flavorless, packaged rye--albeit Pechter's--failed badly. I actually made a pilgrimmage to Orwasher's to reassure myself it still existed and get some of its great corn rye (and walnut-raisin pumpernickel) before we flew home the next day. I asked whether it supplied any delis and the friendly clerk mentioned Pastrami King. The pastrami was so lean that its nomal saltiness was over-prominent. I realize I could have requested end or extra-fatty cuts, but to my mind no self-respecting deli would offer pastrami so lean that it lost all its succulence and darn-near choked the person trying to swallow it. A first in my long deli-eating life: The cole slaw and potato salad appeared to be sauced with the identical, soupy mixture. I'd happened to have had cole slaw at a coffee shop earlier that day and K's tasted and appeared identical, down to three (3) shreds of carrot in the slaw! Interesting and generous mix of over- and under-done pickles. I realize this is a personal prejudice, but I am accusotmed to being able to request Russian style sweet-hot mustard to go with my pastrami sand. The broccoli knish was mostly potato but not unpalatable; my BH's Reuben was tastier than the pastrami simply because the ingredients were moister. Far and away the most shocking and depressing was what we got when we ordered Katz's lemonade, expecting what we've gotten every other place on Earth we've ordered such an item, a house-made mixture of lemon juice, sugar, and water:, we got instead bottled stuff with high fructose corn syrup as the first listed ingredient and lemon flavor instead of juice. Mon Nov 09 16:26:54 -0800 2009 11036 Fine 1 5168848 Try Sarge's next time. I adore their fatty pastrami. I've been getting the best pastrami sandwiches at Sarge's for over 17 years and no disappointments! Mon Nov 09 18:41:53 -0800 2009 5168484 12019 ellenost 1 5168905 Admit it Chowhounds...Katz's is NOT what it used to be. The 50's and the 60's are a thing of the past. Mon Nov 09 19:11:20 -0800 2009 5168484 66726 pbjluver 2 5177716 katz's is a million times better than it was in the 60s.and 70s the quality since the new owners bought it around 1980 has improved greatly,, i dont know how katz's was in the 50s and earlier. The pastrami is exceptional and you have to ask for it juicy. Alot of "non deli eaters" do want the corn beef extra lean and they like it with absolutely no fat. fatty is better to me, but if one wants it xtra lean that's a matter of taste. A broccoli knish i wouldnt think about , a round potato that has alot of onions in it, that's the choice. The rye bread is just fine, its not as good as the hot rye bread i got from a kosher bakery in brooklyn the other day but what they have is fine and its the meat that counts alot more than the rye bread. Orwashers may have great pumpernickle raisin bread etc but that isnt something you want with deli meat. Lemonade, ummm i dont think so! try doctor browns cel ray soda. Ruben's hmmm thats not real deli. I do think that the french fries could use improvement , if they arent fresh and they sit under the heat lamp they are bad. Nathan's french fries are my favorite to go with deli food,,,belgian fries i like too,, Katzs matzoh ball soup is real good. The pea soup is hit and miss. Alot of people like the katz's cheese steak as crazy as that sounds. The cornbeef is really good but again ask for it juicy. I think Sarge's is minor league compared to Katz's. 2nd ave deli's pastrami and cornbeef is very good. Pastrami king is also minor league, Katz's ROCKS Thu Nov 12 21:15:10 -0800 2009 5168905 118604 foodwhisperer 1 5168921 Katz's did'nt do much for me, either... my comrades over on www.roadfood.com seem to constantly rave about it, however.. Glad I'm not alone, anymore, FINE !! Mon Nov 09 19:19:15 -0800 2009 5168484 16973 ellen4441 2 5168977 using roadfood for anything other than photos is a waste. look at the Katz site. Stern hasn;t been there in 7 years and with the whole site 1500 restaurants and 2100 reviews, barely 1.5 per on average, not exactly a good cross-section. Talk about a bit of an exclusive club. But the pictures are great Mon Nov 09 19:40:53 -0800 2009 5168921 11290 jfood 3 5177811 Thanks JFOOD, as I post a lot of those Roadfood.com pics you are referring to...! most the freshest material from Roadfooders is in the "Trip Reports" forum, and also in the "Sandwich" forum... I post under the name "ellen4641";;my most recent report is my "Pastrami in Philly, MEAT-up with David Sax".... just posted it last week.... went over real well... (also past reports on Carnegie, Harold's Deli in Edison, NJ, ) I agree that the Roadfood REVIEW area is not a good cross section... Thu Nov 12 22:07:38 -0800 2009 5168977 16973 ellen4441 1 5169010 So lets sum up - You didn't like the rye bread. Did you ever see a post that praised that bread? It's mediocre, everyone acknowledges it. The pastrami more than offsets the bread. You got lean pastrami but acknowledge that you didn't ask for the fatty stuff. Next time, ask. Sub par cole slaw and potato salad? Again, who told you it was good there? Katz's doesn't serve house made lemonade? Who knew? Actually, almost everybody knows that. Again, there are no posts that rave about Katz's lemonade so I'm shocked that you were shocked. At Katz's, you go for the moist pastrami. The bread is an afterthought. The sides are unremarkable. There's a reason that's the conventional wisdom . Mon Nov 09 19:59:33 -0800 2009 5168484 10162 Bob Martinez 2 5169059 i get it on club bread...i dont deal with rye bread unless im at langers in LA... Mon Nov 09 20:22:10 -0800 2009 5169010 14393 sam1 3 5169105 I agree. While the club is rather chewy, it certainly stands up to the pastrami (and the brisket) much better than the packaged rye. The club gets no love on this board, but it is what I always order. Note that if the OP would have gotten on line like everyone here recommends, s/he would have gotten a taste before the sandwich was made. If the taste was too dry, a request for juicier would have been graciously met. Mon Nov 09 20:41:33 -0800 2009 5169059 12428 bobjbkln 2 5169380 Too many people are complaining about different things at Katz's for them all to be simply clue-less cranks. There was a very recent thread regarding a perceived shrinking of the pastrami sandwich itself (I agree, and am no longer sufficiently "choked" by it, but others don't). But if we've gotten to the point where this once beloved place now only makes one thing worth visiting for, moist pastrami in insufficient quantities for $15 a throw, which can only be obtained even there if you get on line, ask specifically, tip properly, and the moon happens to be lined up with Alpha Centauri, it ain't worth the trip anymore. Tue Nov 10 02:23:55 -0800 2009 5169010 80872 addictedtolunch 2 5169528 I'm with you Bob :) One goes to Katz's for a pastrami on rye (not lean), half sour pickes and a Dr. Brown's cherry or cream soda. Just my opinion. I happen to like the place and will continue to visit for that one meal and the atmosphere it provides. Tue Nov 10 05:36:59 -0800 2009 5169010 149592 iluvcookies 3 5169850 Add their Knoblewurst to that list and I'm there! Tue Nov 10 08:01:47 -0800 2009 5169528 11993 CornflakeGirl 4 5169876 And their hot dogs aren't bad either :) Tue Nov 10 08:10:07 -0800 2009 5169850 149592 iluvcookies 5 5171455 Love the hot dogs! And I'm probably the only person that actually doesn't mind the fries! LOL! My parents go there and get pastrami, hot dogs and knoblewurst from the takeout area and prepare it all at home! They have a whole system where they steam the pastrami to reheat it! Tue Nov 10 18:04:04 -0800 2009 5169876 11993 CornflakeGirl 6 5172196 CornflakeGirl, If you really like the hot dogs at Katz's, let me suggest that you find a store or market that sells Sabrett natural casing all beef franks and buy some. This is what Katz's serves. You can get the same for much cheaper at a store. Wed Nov 11 05:26:51 -0800 2009 5171455 11964 hotdoglover 7 5172334 I've had those as well and they don't taste the same! Wed Nov 11 06:37:38 -0800 2009 5172196 11993 CornflakeGirl 8 5172489 I think it's the grill... like a well seasoned cast iron skillet, the old grills impart a flavor that can't be replicated at home. CornflakeGirl, I don't mind the fries either. Not the best, but OK. Wed Nov 11 07:39:22 -0800 2009 5172334 149592 iluvcookies 9 5173269 Or maybe the atmosphere. Food sometimes seems to taste better when you have it out. I do know that the dogs served at Katz's, Papaya King, and Gray's Papaya are the same recipe Sabrett natural casing dogs. Wed Nov 11 11:56:28 -0800 2009 5172489 11964 hotdoglover 10 5173525 Thanks hotdoglover... that's good to know. When you make Sabretts at home do you notice a difference? DH wanted to pick up a pack from our supermarket but I have a feeling they aren't *exactly* the same as the ones at Katz/Papaya King. Wed Nov 11 13:12:00 -0800 2009 5173269 149592 iluvcookies 11 5174309 The only difference is size and perhaps the preparation and grill. I've posted extensively about this subject in the past. Let me give you the short version. I know Sabrett distributors, a guy whose father delivered Sabrett hot dogs for 41 years including to Katz's, Papaya King, and Grays, and the person in charge of private label at Marathon Enterprises which is the parent company of Sabrett. I am 100% positive that the dogs at these places are the same recipe Sabretts. Sabrett has a beef dog and a beef/pork dog. That's it, 2 recipes. They do come in different sizes and either skinless or natural casing. Katz's dog is slightly larger than Papaya King and Gray's. The serial numbers are the same for these 2. They are 10 to a lb natural casing Sabretts. Papaya King is one of the 10% of accounts that get their dogs refrigerated rather than frozen. Perhaps this makes a difference. Another reason for a perceived difference could be that the Sabrett's you buy in the store come 8 to a lb rather than 10. The casing isn't as tight. But I am sure that they are the same recipe. Confirmed to me by the person in charge of private label who thought I was opening my own place when I called to inquire about buying some of his dogs that he sold to Papaya King. Despite their claims Papaya King does not add an extra spice. I was contacted by a local news program who was interested in this information. They found it from one of my past posts. They decided not to run the piece because they feared a lawsuit even though I am positive of what I stated. Years ago I spoke with an employee of Katz's over the phone who told me they use Sabrett. When I went a friendly employee told me the same thing. When asked about the hot dogs by someone else, one owner claimed the dogs were made on premise. When another owner was asked, he laughed and said they were made for them by Marathon. Wed Nov 11 17:40:55 -0800 2009 5173525 11964 hotdoglover 12 5175231 HDL is correct. Many years ago, after my meal of Pastrami, I went to the take-out counter to purchase some salami and hot dogs to take home.......I seem to recall the retail price was something like $9.00 per pound for the tube steaks and I placed my order for a couple of pounds of hot dogs and knoblewursts.....I had never had a hot dog from Katz's, but I have had the knoblewurst before on premise........When I unwrapped the hot dogs and knoblewurst from the white butcher paper after I returned home.......there was a tag on the meats that said......*Marathon Enterprises, Inc, East Rutherford, NJ*. I laughed because I knew I had been HAD. btw......I am a fan of Katz's Pastrami, regardless of my past experience. Thu Nov 12 06:58:28 -0800 2009 5174309 123497 fourunder 13 5175405 Thanks, Fourunder. For some reason many people have a hard time believing me on this one. I've had people tell me that they actually saw the distributor dropping of boxes labelled Sabrett. I know of a kosher deli that serves Hebrew National hot dogs. They don't mention or advertise it. But they sell them to go for $9.00 per pound. You can buy the same ones for much cheaper anywhere else. It's been my experience that places serving hot dogs want you to think that theirs are unique and that you can only get them there. Many claim to make their own. I ask to see the sausage making equipment. Several times they had to admit that they don't make their own. More common is the claim that a place gets a special proprietary recipe made just for them. Over 90% of the time this is bull. I happen to know people in the industry including some who are plant managers and some who own places that make hot dogs. They speak freely with me. One plant that makes an exceptional beef dog only makes one recipe. Different sizes, but one recipe. At least 2 people claimed to have dogs made by this company to a special recipe. My friend at this plant laughs and tells me it isn't true. I have no qualms about revealing this when I'm lied to. Katz's, Papaya King, and Gray's are just the tip of the iceberg. Thu Nov 12 07:49:01 -0800 2009 5175231 11964 hotdoglover 14 5175476 This is such great information. I'm really glad you posted it. Thu Nov 12 08:09:14 -0800 2009 5175405 10162 Bob Martinez 12 5175299 Thanks for the informative post! This is the kind of info I love to read about.... like little New York "secrets". Thu Nov 12 07:19:02 -0800 2009 5174309 149592 iluvcookies 2 5170847 Amen Bob. I'll just add, next time dig into your pocket and just give the counter guy a couple of bucks. Tue Nov 10 13:26:04 -0800 2009 5169010 12695 harrison 2 5171783 I couldn't agree more. By the way, even if you get waiter service, if you request juicy pastrami, you'll get it, and if you don't like the meat, you can send it back with specific instructions for how to remake the sandwich. I always wait on line, however. Tue Nov 10 20:51:11 -0800 2009 5169010 17058 Pan 2 5197499 Please tell me if I have the drill down pat: If you are, for whatever reason, about to be a tyro visitor to Katz's Deli, you should first: 1. not bother if you're not familiar with Chowhound 2. take whatever time is necessary to research all the (albeit contradictory) C-hound commentary on this place 3. if you happen to agree with most of the Western world that good bread is an essential ingredient to any good sandwich and you're planning to order a pastrami sandwich--and despite the size of Katz's menu, be warned that v. few other items are worth ordering, according to C-hound's Katz mavens--then go uptown to 78th St and stop at Orwashers (or another excellent bakery of your choice) for its spectacular corn rye and have it sliced (I grew up believing New Yorkers were fanatic about the quality of their bread, as I later discovered San Franciscans, Parisians, and many other folks were, mainly based on my own experience as a kid on the Island picking up rye bread for our family supper after winter Saturday afternoon matinees and having to hold the bag by its very ends so as not to burn my fingers) 4. if you're accustomed to eating pastrami sandwiches anywhere else, you'll undoubtedly, though erroneously, assume yours will include a choice between cole slaw and potato salad, so, if you find just a meat sandwich with no traditional garnishes other than pickles not up to your expectations, well before your planned visit be sure to find tasty, fresh versions of one or both of these salads and buy a half or full pint of one or both to bring along to Katz's 5. be sure to order one of Dr. Brown's sodas and not be seduced by the refreshing image of the house's touted "own lemonade," though, if you do want that particular beverage and are willing to tolerate the sneers from the appointed lords of deli, then be sure to make your visit early enough to be able to stop at Russ& Daughters for its well-recommended version 6. once you arrive at Katz's and try to figure out its unique and confusing "ticketing" system and order your sandwich--even though no one there will tell you that you have a choice among degrees of fattiness, not even the meat-slicer who hands you a taste with no explanation even when you ask him why he's doing so--be sure to speak up and request the leanness or fattiness you prefer 7. if you like your dill pickles either under- or over-cured (called "half" or "full sour" by those--like me--familiar with both growing and curing them and visiting establishments that feature them), speak up 8. if you want to pay with a credit card, there's a person near the far end of the counter who will permit you to do so, though again, if you're not privy to the arcane rules, you will not know this. Fri Nov 20 18:59:26 -0800 2009 5169010 11036 Fine 3 5197571 7. if you like your dill pickles either under- or over-cured (called "half" or "full sour" by those--like me--familiar with both growing and curing them and visiting establishments that feature them), speak up ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I always call under cured pickles........new pickles Fri Nov 20 20:06:35 -0800 2009 5197499 123497 fourunder 1 5169684 i must say i am actually very happy to see this post. to me katz's is a litmus test of knowing whether someone is a "foodie" or a food person, a trendy food network influenced eater or a connoisseur. katz's is just plain awful and has been for many, many years. In fact they are very consistent in how little they care about their product. I’ve eaten at katz’s probably about 50 times in my life and yes, there was a time where the food was to die for but those days are LONG gone bubby. If given the choice of kat’s for dinner or going to bed hungry, I’m sorry to report that I would wait for breakfast. at this point i don't know any new york jews who even eat there any more. i still end up there about once year and for the last 4 times i've been there the food has been so bad that it's not even worth sending back. Literally it’s been take two or three bites of what tastes like an old hotdog and take your ticket up to the counter and get the hell out. It’s astounding to me that people can be so influenced by others that they ignore their own taste buds… if you want good pastrami I am sorry to report that you are not going to get in manhattan. I’ve been to ben’s, 2nd ave, katz’s, sarge’s, Carnegie, and noah’s ark all several times and the only one that even comes close to resembling a good pastrami is 2nd ave. in new york city the very best pastrami that you are going to get is at ben’s best in rego park. Hand’s down, no questions asked, the best. Outside of ben’s best the only pastrami that I’ve had that has really knocked my socks off has been Schwartz’s in Montreal. Sorry to be so vitriolic but I can’t tell you how many times on this board alone I’ve seen people include katz’s on their “must-eat” list and I always bite my tongue. To me sending a non-New Yorker to katz’s is a as good as sending them to bubba gump shrimp or hooter’s, a disgusting tourist trap… Tue Nov 10 07:02:18 -0800 2009 5168484 50017 El Tigre 2 5169691 ps I really am sorry if I’ve insulted anyone with this post. My distaste for katz’s has been building for a long time and any venom in this email is directed squarely at them. Tue Nov 10 07:05:34 -0800 2009 5169684 50017 El Tigre 3 5177827 no insult , as far as I'm concerned...! I've tried Katz's a few times, and I found the pastrami tough to chew , just my personal tastes ... I DO like Ben's Best in Rego Park, AGREED! plus Jay and Lloyd's in Brooklyn... and the Carnegie (about 5 out of the last 7 times I got a perfect succulent pastrami sandwich!!!) Twice it was "off"... and I DO want to get to SCHWARTZ's in Montreal!! Thu Nov 12 22:12:44 -0800 2009 5169691 16973 ellen4441 4 5177916 Tough to chew? I would have rejected that sample and asked them to bring another slab. It's very occasionally happened to me that I got a sample that was a bit gristly or something. Thu Nov 12 23:28:31 -0800 2009 5177827 17058 Pan 4 5178191 I had a recent very bad experience at Jay & Lloyd's in Brooklyn. Food was terrible and service was worse! Won't go back--ever! Fri Nov 13 06:09:00 -0800 2009 5177827 12019 ellenost 2 5169693 pps you must always order your pastrami, wherever you are, fatty & nasty. Tue Nov 10 07:06:22 -0800 2009 5169684 50017 El Tigre 2 5169848 Severely misguided! I know many NY Jews (myself included) that still eat at Katz's. Been doing it for more than 35 years! If you know how to order you rarely leave disappointed. Been to Ben's Best many times as well. I think it's slipped in recent years. And don't even get me started on Knish Knosh. Tue Nov 10 08:01:13 -0800 2009 5169684 11993 CornflakeGirl 2 5170902 I take my friends to Katz's and like it better than Schwartz's and Ben's Best. Does this really make me a mere 'food person'? ohhh f'ng well. To each their own, makes the world go around Tue Nov 10 13:46:03 -0800 2009 5169684 176294 dhs 2 5171273 Langer's in L.A. also makes a better pastrami sandwich than Katz's, hands down. and their bread is way superior besides. I only go to Katz's now when friends or family come to town and ask. Tue Nov 10 16:34:04 -0800 2009 5169684 80872 addictedtolunch 3 5171697 No one claimed that Katz's was the best pastrami in the known universe. Langer's can have LA. Katz's and Sarge's rule New York. Tue Nov 10 19:55:04 -0800 2009 5171273 10162 Bob Martinez 4 5172219 ...and Irving's Deli in LIvingston, NJ currently beats them all. :) Wed Nov 11 05:44:27 -0800 2009 5171697 12622 Striver 3 5177832 Langers is my #2 favorite pastrami, after the Carnegie...! Just had Langers last month during an L.A. vacation ... And the Pastrami Queen in Boca Raton, FL (homemade pastramii!!) rounds out my top 3 !!!! (former owners of the Pastrami Queen in NYC) Thu Nov 12 22:14:27 -0800 2009 5171273 16973 ellen4441 2 5171779 I'm a New York Jew and love Katz's! And their pastrami is far better than 2nd Av. Deli's. I always get it juicy and don't care about the bread. I like their brisket a lot, too. Tue Nov 10 20:48:26 -0800 2009 5169684 17058 Pan 1 5169831 I've only been to Katz's once, but when you get the fatty, nasty pastrami (which I got without even asking), it's so damn good. Tue Nov 10 07:56:33 -0800 2009 5168484 207518 ncsuemme 1 5171512 A pastrami sandwich is NOT about the bread. The bread just helps get it to the mouth. I for one want to enjoy the succulence of properly made and properly cooked (with a LONG steambath) pastrami and the _last_ thing I want it served on is dense, chewy bread. Save that for the crappy supermarket deli pastrami. I like the great pastrami at Katz's, and am fine with the Pechter's, though I do wish it was the seeded variety. But to me (and many other pastrami mavens) the mediumweight Pechter's rye bread is a perfect delivery vehicle. You tried the place, you didn't like it. That's fine, to each his own. The place is definitely not for everybody. Katz's is about PASTRAMI. There's _no_ other reason to go there, but it's a damned good reason. It has never disappointed me. Tue Nov 10 18:25:43 -0800 2009 5168484 116047 The Professor 2 5177650 "There's _no_ other reason to go there" Oh, come on! The not only serve the best corned beef in New York... they are the last deli in the City to make it the old fashioned, original way: 2 weeks of brining, NOT the 2 day injection method used by Carnegie, Stage & the lesser delis. I do love Katz's pastrami, but I also love to go there for a great corned beef. As for the "mix of over- and under-done pickles", as the grandson of a deli owner, I can tell you that they are half-sours and Kosher dills, all served when they are just right... not over- and under-done pickles. Really: judging Katz's by pickles that you don't understand, by their not making their own lemonade and by the bread in the sandwiches? Some people really should stick with Shop-Rite for their meals. Thu Nov 12 20:40:01 -0800 2009 5171512 41711 Sommelier 3 5177761 I also like their brisket a lot, providing you tell them "juicy." If you don't, it's too dry. If you do, it's wonderful, almost as good as their pastrami (and a couple of my friends actually prefer the brisket). Thu Nov 12 21:41:33 -0800 2009 5177650 17058 Pan 3 5178117 Good point about the pickles Sommelier... I personally don't like dill or full sour, but they certainly aren't wrong or bad or over-done. Just ask for the ones you like and the counterman will happily oblige you. Fri Nov 13 05:35:28 -0800 2009 5177650 149592 iluvcookies 4 5180922 Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree. As much as I love Katz's pastrami, their pickles are terrible... always way too soft no matter whether they are dill or half sour (they should be called barely sour)... just a bad texture and very little flavor.... not how good pickles are supposed to taste at all. Sat Nov 14 06:58:41 -0800 2009 5178117 1104225 ChiefHDB 5 5182630 I think their pickles are OK, but I'm not a huge pickle connoisseur. But 2nd Av. Deli's pickles are better. Sun Nov 15 03:17:44 -0800 2009 5180922 17058 Pan 1 5171796 If to you a sandwichh is all about the bread, then why bother with the filling at all - whether it be katz's pastrami or canned tuna. Get real! Tue Nov 10 20:59:23 -0800 2009 5168484 74069 Ann900 1 5172965 I agree that a pastrami sandwich is not about the bread, and that it's just a delivery mechanism, but I believe that 2nd Ave Deli has a better pastrami anyways. I also had a similar "choking" experience at Katz's which I why I don't eat there. Wed Nov 11 10:13:33 -0800 2009 5168484 41798 windycity 1 5175375 I gotta qualify that I'm a Katz's loyalist. The thing that did raise my ire was the lemonade. Shame on Katz's if they peddle that chemical-crap. Now, we usually have beer with our meal at Katz's so I've not fallen prey to the lemonade deal. Russ & Daughters sells a marvelous store-bottled lemonade made all naturally and it's just absolutely delicious. I'm disappointed to hear Katz's gave the OP pastrami that was like sawdust. It's not happened to us as we ask for "medium fatty" from the waiter and get a wonderful cut every time. Katz's garlic sausage (knobel-wurst-sp?) is on my top ten list for "last meals." Snap! I will concede that indeed the crummy bread is annoying, especially when it becomes compressed into a grey paste... yecch. Thu Nov 12 07:41:52 -0800 2009 5168484 270888 shaogo 1 5179503 Eisenberg's on 5th has great pastrami. The bread is only there to soak up the fat. I find it ridiculous that one should have to ask for a "juicy" anything. It should just be that way. Fri Nov 13 12:47:44 -0800 2009 5168484 1099133 momosz 1 5180560 Why bother with the meat if the bread is the most important thing to you in a sandwich? I ate at Katz last Friday and it was as good as it has been for 20 years, and that is great. I ate there in 1964 and it was great then. I say "One juicy" to the slicer and am never disappointed. Everyone I know knows the rye bread sucks. But so what. Bring your own bread and order a juicy pound sliced if that's your game. And lemonade...what do you think Katz makes its own Coke too? Dr. Browns, seltzer or water for me. I also ask for only full sours. Sheesh. I live near Barney Greengrass, eat there weekly, and I laugh at the people that come their and order a tuna fish salad on white toast and then leave saying what is so special about that place. Katz was a disaster for you because you didn't know how to order. Next time, maybe will be better. Fri Nov 13 21:29:57 -0800 2009 5168484 1124413 1 guy from harrison 2 5180805 Anyone so concerned with the bread should head to Sullivan St. for a sandwich. At Katz's the bread is merely a vessel for the meat. We stopped in for a quick spur of the moment bite before meeting a friend the other night and had no problems! Of course we had Dr. Brown's Black Cherry though. We've had some good times at Katz's watching tourists order chili cheeseburgers or roast beef on white with mayo. We've even tried to advise a few of them. One group of 20-somethings from Boston seemed more concerned with the cheap beers than anything else! Sat Nov 14 05:27:46 -0800 2009 5180560 11993 CornflakeGirl 3 5184898 CornflakeGirl... I secretly love watching tourists too! But people will want what they want... being in the hospitality industry I've tried to steer some of them right as I appreciate it when I travel. It makes me sad to see people walk away from a great place with disappointment because of not ordering what the place is really really good at! Mon Nov 16 05:33:38 -0800 2009 5180805 149592 iluvcookies 3 5185109 Not to mention, it's a hell of an expensive way to buy two slices of bread. Mon Nov 16 07:14:29 -0800 2009 5180805 10475 Wilfrid 1 5191970 Deli's strive for consistency, but food quality varies much more than at fast-food chains. Most of this type food tastes better when prepared in smaller amounts. That's why most any deli meat at a deli tastes better than a deli meat from a take-out supermarket counter. I've had very good pastrami and so-so pastrami at Katz's. How busy or slow the restaurant is, how good or bad your slicer is, and the weather make a big difference in how good your sandwich is. At most deli's, including Katz's, the food is better when the place is busy, but not super busy. The differences among all these places are not all that great. I think we're kidding ourselves to think so. Ben's in Rego Park when it's busy will usually be better than Katz's when it's real slow. Wed Nov 18 11:41:50 -0800 2009 5168484 27287 BigGuy 2 5192190 "How busy or slow the restaurant is, how good or bad your slicer is, and the weather make a big difference in how good your sandwich is." Could you explain how the weather affects how good your sandwich is? This is a new theory for me. Wed Nov 18 12:54:46 -0800 2009 5191970 10162 Bob Martinez 3 5192448 Bad weather could mean low turnover. Wed Nov 18 14:25:08 -0800 2009 5192190 18466 a_and_w 4 5192506 If that's the case mentioning it along with low turnover would be redundant. I'm hoping to learn if pastrami tastes different depending on the temperature and humidity. That way I can plan my visits for maximum flavor impact. Wed Nov 18 14:51:56 -0800 2009 5192448 10162 Bob Martinez 5 5192792 He didn't mention turnover -- I did. He simply referred to how busy a restaurant is. Katz's might be packed on a rainy day with people escaping the weather. But that doesn't necessarily equate with high turnover of food. Wed Nov 18 16:59:40 -0800 2009 5192506 18466 a_and_w 6 5193003 Doubtless the quality of a Katz pastrami sandwich varies from very good indeed to excellent, depending on all kinds of factors. What conclusion to draw from that, I have no idea. Wed Nov 18 18:53:55 -0800 2009 5192792 10475 Wilfrid 6 5193543 You're right, but my point still stands. The OP said - "How busy or slow the restaurant is, how good or bad your slicer is, and the weather make a big difference in how good your sandwich is." He mentioned busyness *and* weather. I would really like to hear about the effect of weather on pastrami. Does weather also affect ham and roast beef or is the influence limited to members of the brisket family? Thu Nov 19 04:38:52 -0800 2009 5192792 10162 Bob Martinez 7 5193660 :) at Bob Martinez Personally, I only by weather-proof salami. Keeps better in the fridge. Thu Nov 19 05:49:35 -0800 2009 5193543 149592 iluvcookies 7 5200340 When there's lousy weather, there's usually fewer people in the restaurant and the food doesn't turn as quickly. That's the main way the weather affects the food. But the weather affects people even more so than the food. When its hot and humid, the slicers at Katz's tend to be irritable, just like everybody else is, so maybe some of them won't feel like treating you nicely. And when the weather's cold and dreary, a hot pastrami sandwich tastes better than usual just because of how good it feels to eat a hot sandwich on a cold day. Sun Nov 22 12:21:42 -0800 2009 5193543 27287 BigGuy 8 5200396 "When its hot and humid, the slicers at Katz's tend to be irritable, just like everybody else is" It's pretty much hot and humid behind that counter year round so your theory falls pretty flat in that regard. Sun Nov 22 12:46:24 -0800 2009 5200340 10195 KTinNYC 9 5200418 You may be right about that, and I may be wrong, but it does feel worse behind a deli counter when the weather's hot and humid than when it's nice out. Sun Nov 22 12:59:16 -0800 2009 5200396 27287 BigGuy 10 5201117 "... it does feel worse behind a deli counter when the weather's hot and humid than when it's nice out." Air conditioning? I've been in Katz's in the winter and I've gone in the summer. The weather inside is the same. With pastrami you're dealing with a naturally variable product. Some pieces are fattier than other. They keep the lean stuff around to cater to the misguided folks who think that a sandwich filled with fatty meat will send them straight to hell. If you ask for a fatty sandwich 95% of the time they'll give it to you. If the sample is too lean you can tell them. It's really not tricky. I'm a big believer in Occam's Razor - "When you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better." http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/occam.html Sun Nov 22 19:08:38 -0800 2009 5200418 10162 Bob Martinez 11 5202238 Love you Bob, but you are misapplying Occam's razor, which is actually pretty unreliable. Mon Nov 23 08:52:43 -0800 2009 5201117 18466 a_and_w 2 5193261 I've never had a so-so pastrami sandwich at Katz's. If the pastrami sample isn't good enough, I ask for another slab. Wed Nov 18 21:17:22 -0800 2009 5191970 17058 Pan 1 5193695 something tells me that you're not the only person with such a story... Thu Nov 19 06:03:44 -0800 2009 5193686 50017 El Tigre 1 5199727 http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/633861 Sun Nov 22 06:06:46 -0800 2009 5168484 10173 guttergourmet 1 5200836 I was recently advised by a deli counter employee who has worked at several major stores and is a Katz's maven that one should not get pastrami at Katz's after 2 PM or so. He told me that the steamers are shut off about then. I do not know what the steamers are or what they are used for and whether he is correct or not, but I have noticed that once or twice when I went to Katz's late in the day, I was disappointed with the pastrami. Any comments? Sun Nov 22 16:29:04 -0800 2009 5168484 20619 AlanMa 2 5200945 This seems pretty unlikely to me. Katz's doesn't close until nearly 3 am on the weekends. I don't see how you can get a hot sandwich 13 hours after the steamers are shut off. Even on a weeknight the closing time is 10 pm so I can't see how the would turn off the steamer 8 hours prior to close. Sun Nov 22 17:25:12 -0800 2009 5200836 10195 KTinNYC 2 5201104 The steam is what makes great deli pastrami what it is. Sure, the cure and the smoking steps are important, but that 2-3 hour+ steambath it gets in the steam cabinet is the finishing touch...it's what makes the meat tender and succulent, just as a long braise makes stew meat tender. If the meat is too lean, the result is not as good and that's why for pastrami the fattier cuts will be the most succulent and flavorful. I would question that 2 PM steam cabinet shut off story though...it does seem a little too early of a shut off time for a restaurant that serves 8 to 10 hours past that time and whose main attraction depends upon it... Sun Nov 22 18:57:46 -0800 2009 5200836 116047 The Professor