Am I the Only One Who Doesn't Like Pinot Noir?!

[invinotheresverde]

Okay, I can enjoy a better than average+ Burg, but New World PN always seems uninteresting, unbalanced, too light, flabby, Kool Aidy, over priced and overhyped. Why does everyone rave about them?

[anewton]

Gross generalization: I think there is a lot of mediocre to bad pinot out there, especially among new world efforts. However, do you not think the same thing can be said about many wine grapes? Think of all the syrupy Australian shiraz. Or the vanilla-sweet, new world Cabernet Sauvignon. Or insipid butterscotch Chardonnays.

Having said that, I can think of many new world PN producers who have wowed me: Ken Wright, Domaine Serene, Archery Summit, Domaine Drouhin, and Navarro, just to name a few (must admit I have had much greater exposure to the Oregon producers than I have to California). I also like Amayna PN from Chile.

The magic for me comes when pairing pinot with the right foods...i.e. recently paired a new world PN with braised duck with green olives topped with duck cracklings. The wine really came alive. I live in the Pacific Northwest and eat a lot of wild salmon. Stating the obvious, but PN and salmon are usually really good together (that is if the salmon is prepared simply).

But I understand that PN is not everyone's cup of tea. Certainly my wife doesn't rate it among her favourite grape varietals. Que sera, sera.

[linguafood]

I think it goes better with food. It's not a drinking wine for me.

[Bill Hunt]

"I think it goes better with food. It's not a drinking wine for me."

I do find that PN is more food-friendly, with a broad brush, than many other varietals. OTOH, I find that many of the definitely New World, CA (think Santa Barbara, Santa Rita, etc.) PN's are great by themselves. Yes, many do not display the traditional characteristics that many associate with the PN grape, and some could be mistaken for Syrah, but we enjoy them - both with the right foods, and alone. For the general food affinities, I do feel that a more Old World style is more universal and has a broader affinity than those bigger, bolder examples.

Just my personal tastes, though my young wife seems to agree.

Hunt

[duck833]

You just have not tried the right ones. I have multiple vintages, many different styles from different winemakers. I can have some that you can not tell from classical french burgandy, I have others that are as big as a big Cali PN, and I have everything in between.

But maybe PN is simply not your thing. I have several folks at parties and tailgaters that are always looking for a white zin, they don't care for PN either.

[invinotheresverde]

Oh, I've tried the "right ones".

Williams and Selyem
Penner Ash
Domaine Serene
Talley
Erath
Patz and Hall
Sea Smoke
Acacia
Flowers
Iron Horse
Sanford
Testarossa
Derbes
Calera
Auteur
Freeman
Goldeneye

...and many, many more. I gave them a fair shake. And thanks for the WZ dig.

[dinwiddie]

It is all a matter of taste. What you don't like apparently is the CA PNs specifically, and Oregon PNs to a lesser extent. Of course, if your idea of the good PN is a Burg, you will probably be disappointed in a big CA PN, because they are very different in both style and alcohol content.

Personally, I like the CA PNs, but love a good Burg too. I suggest you might want to try a Radio Coteau Savoy Vineyard PN, but if you just don't like CA PNs, be content with drinking Burgs.

[invinotheresverde]

I've tried RC in the past, although not the Savoy. Maybe I'll give it a whirl.

I'm not saying they're all terrible: I just don't get the hype. Some which I've tried have been borderline flawed and the sheeple still rave. I agree it's subjective, but to me it's bizarre.

[mengathon]

No you're not the only one. But then again, new world PN is not the only wine out there that is overhyped and overpriced. You could say the same for Brunellos, Tuscans, Amarones, Champagnes, red and white Burgundies, Bordeaux, Rioja, Priorat, Alsace, and just about every other region or grape. And it's not that bizarre really. The wine world as a whole is fashion. Things get hot and cold, and it all goes in cycles.

[invinotheresverde]

I realize that it's all cyclical, but I just have a hard time understanding why people go so crazy over something that is so void of goodness, except, perhaps, in the best bottles.

I mean, I'm pretty open WRT wine. Besides White Zin and Pinot
Grigio, I'll drink and enjoy almost any varietal. And I'll definitely try anything twice...or more. I'm a seasoned taster. I don't ever like or dislike something because something (Sideways...cough) tells me to.

Maybe it's just my region of the World, but all of the other wines you mentioned PALE in sales (both dollars and volume). Almost everyone I know is on the PN train.

[crw77]

Wine is not cyclical. You're talking about marketing and hype. Burgundy has changed very little since the monks first planted vines there over 1000 years ago.

Or maybe you're talking about 1000 year cycles?

For hundreds of years, the Bordelais led the world in hype. But they've been blown away by the New World. It's the Emperor's new clothes phenomenon. Lots of hype and not much in the bottle. Why worry about it? I love Burgundy, but never buy new world PN.

Don't get me wrong, there are good west coast PNs, just not many and not worth the money. Other people like them, and that's great. It'd be worse if they wanted to buy the wines that I like.

[invinotheresverde]

I should've said wine trends are cyclical; things fall in and out of fashion. Obviously, the wines themselves don't change all that much.

I'm not "worried" about it; I was more looking for someone to explain their love in PN to me. I'm also glad it leaves more of what I like on the shelves.

[mengathon]

It's more than just marketing and hype. People's tastes changes as well, and not necessarily according to the other two factors.

And I would think Burgundy has changed quite a lot in 1000 years. As has Bordeaux. While the Bordelais has led the world in hype for hundreds of years, if you told them way back when that minimum alcohol levels would never be a problem, they would have scoffed.

While hype is certainly a factor, there's quite often substance in the bottles too. And there's plenty of hype regarding a ton of mediocre Burgundy.

[Bill Hunt]

Astute observation. Not so much here, but on many other more wine-centric boards, the common post is "what's the next BIG thing?"

To me, who cares? It doesn't matter if the producer only does two bottles - one for me and one for Robert Parker, Jr. It's about what pleases me, and not what someone in the NYT thinks is "in vogue" at that moment. Heck, five years ago I could not get people to try Tavel Rosé. Suddenly, an article in the New Yorker hit and ladies were doing Rosé for lunch everywhere. The price of Tavel jumped up.

In the end, drink what amuses you, and disregard the press and the clamor. It's a fad, and it too shall pass. Should you only like Burgs - drink Burgs. Should you like big, bold, higher-alcohol PN's that could be mistaken for a Syrah by a sommelier - drink those. And, everything in between that you enjoy.

Hunt

[njfoodies]

What didn't you like about the wines listed, and how do you feel they were flawed? I've had 14 of the 17 wines you listed, and maybe not all of them WOWED me, but they were all more than drinkable. The ones I have not had are the Iron Horse, Derbes, and Goldeneye.

From top to bottom, I have had some great bottles of Williams Selyem. Even recently we've had a few from the late 90's and early 2000's that have been good. I love Sea Smoke with some age, and still haven only popped one from my 2005 allocation. These will continue to rest on their sides along with my 06's and '07's. I think the '04's however are drinking nicely right now.

Many of the Oregon's you listed need time on their sides as well in my opinion, but that is just my preference. Many will disagree, and say that the '07's are good to go now, which many of them are.

Had an '06 Sanford on Halloween that was popped and poured and fabulous! I think the '06 is lmost as good as the '04 was, and may surpass it in time. Love this wine. Calera too I feel is born to age. Had many from the ealy 90's in the last 2 years, and they have been amazing wines. Their wines however do not do much for me when much younger. As for Auteur, these wines too are incredible with a few years in the bottle! Just my 2 yen... -mJ

[invinotheresverde]

I've tried them young and old, as I get a respectable amount of severely discounted wine, due to my job and friends in the business.

They simply never seem memorable or remarkable. Every time I drink a well-respected a/o pricey PN I feel like I could've jusy used those calories on something so much more interesting.. Something apparently doesn't register with me. It's like the varietal lacks anything special. PN only gives me a teeny fraction of the enjoyment of, say, Nebbiolo.

I guess it's just one of those things.

[BN1]

I’ve decided I have a Nebbiolo addiction. Maybe that’s the connection.

[invinotheresverde]

Doesn't "addiction" imply it's a problem? ;)

[Bill Hunt]

Cool. Someone else who likes the grape across the full spectrum. So long as the wine is well-made and balanced, I do not feel the need to award "points" for pure varietal integrity. If it's good - regardless - I tend to enjoy it.

Of course, I am drinking these for my pleasure, and not trying to fit them into a wine list, or match with any menu other than the one that night at my house.

Hunt

[shaogo]

Yes, there're too many inferior Pinot Noirs. Yes, I think that none of the good ones are value-priced.

It's a great food wine because it's very easy to pair with a wide spectrum of foods.

The OP may be the only poster who doesn't like Pinot Noirs. I just don't like the bad ones. And I've had quite a few.

I dig California Pinots, and have had a couple from Chile that were very, very impressive and not expensive (sadly for y'all I've forgotten which -- I took a look around and couldn't summon the names in my memory).

It's easy to hate a varietal that for all intents and purposes is being exploited -- not unlike the Syrah/Shiraz business of a few years back. I have to laugh at the people who go out and will buy awful Pinot Noir by the glass when there're actually better choices offered in another red varietal.

[BN1]

"The OP may be the only poster who doesn't like Pinot Noirs." I don't like them either and my wife won't hardly try them. I have to have a specific reason to choose one, like the mushroom quiche with an Anderson Valley PN we had a couple of weeks ago. It is the last red I consider when trying to pair a dish. I agree completely with the OP.

[Bill Hunt]

I have a personal request. Can you please go back into your memory and list a few of the Chilean PN's that you enjoyed? With one exception, I have really not encountered any Chilean wine that I would buy, regardless of the price. I've had several retailers and distributors, who have filled my basket with free Chilean wines, in hope of changing my mind. With that one exception - no go, so far. As I try to keep an open mind and not brand any one area totally, I have gladly tried all the recommended wines without any that I'd purchase. I have thanked these nice folk, but have always moved on. Even free vs for $, I go with what I enjoy.

Thanks, and looking forward to your recs.

Hunt

[anewton]

Hi Bill:

Can't say I'm an expert on South American PN, but one that I really enjoy is from the Amayna winery (Chile). I do not think it has a vineyard specific designation (simply look for Amayna PN). Amayna also makes excellent sauvignon blanc and chardonnay. I would definitely say that their wines are more "new world" than "old world" but at the same time I find them to be elegant, balanced, and complex.

[Bill Hunt]

Thank you. I have not seen it, but will look. I have to admit that I do not recall having a Chilean PN, but will now keep my eye out.

I still cannot quite get my head around NZ PN's, though it would seem that they should be on the cusp, and about to produce some great ones. Maybe it's just been the samples that I have experienced.

So much wine - so little time!

Thanks,

Hunt

[stalkingwine.com]

I suggest you don't buy another bottle in on this category, but instead try a bunch more at wine bars and pinot noir tastings at reputable shops.

I despised pinot for about 15 years, then one day, almost overnight, I loved that category. It could happen to you too :-)

That said, here are two different, but great pinots that I'm drinking now:
http://www.klwines.com/detail.asp?sku=1042600 (richer, more flavorful style
)http://www.klwines.com/detail.asp?sku... (lighter, fruity, with balanced acid)

[invinotheresverde]

Thanks for the links. I haven't heard of the Redemption. I'll keep an eye out. I sell a metric shit-ton of A to Z for work. It's extremely popular where I live. I don't care much for it, but I think it gives Joe Average PN Drinker good QPR.

[whiner]

New World Pinot is a different animal than Burgundy. That said, while you've had lots of Pinots that people talk about, you didn't list any that I would have (Merry Edwards, Rivers-Marie, August West, Martinelli) given your desire for more richness and complexity. I'm finding myself less and less able to drink New World wines of any sort, though.

[Midlife]

Two things:

1. "too light, flabby, Kool Aidy" are pretty much the opposite of what most people I hear find negative in most CA and OR Pinots. In fact, many wineries are accused of adding Syrah.

2. The one single thing that I would swear by in wine preference discussions is that, while there are certainly 'standards' of what a specific varietal should taste like, what people PREFER is a totally different thing. People like what they like and the easiest way to start a never-ending argument is to question why. The extreme is asking why so many people say they like Charles Shaw @ Trader Joe's. Your list above contains many Pinots I have really loved, while I find many Old Word Burgs to be so subtle as to be uninteresting....... and some where I find that subtlety highly enjoyable.

Wine seems to be all about personal taste.

[maria lorraine]

I feel like Goldlilocks.

My major complaint with most Pinots, especially with most inexpensive Pinots, is that they are "too light, flabby, Kool Aidy" and generally vapid. Happens all the time.

My other major complaint is with Pinot that's too heavy, like Syrah.

I want the middle ground. I want Pinot fruit, suppleness, finesse, concentration but not high-alcohol. It's around.

[hcbk0702]

There are definitely some beautifully balanced and elegant pinots being produced in CA. Unfortunately, many of them are limited to mailing lists and have virtually no presence in retail stores. They aren't necessarily expensive but some are hard to obtain. Even Burgheads tend to have positive TNs for many of these wines, a few examples being:

Rhys
Arcadian
Anthill Farms
Ceritas
Chasseur
Copain
Kutch
Rivers-Marie
Siduri

Many of them are polar opposites from the high-alcohol, super-extracted (and super-expensive) pinots from Marcassin, Aubert, Kistler, Kosta Browne etc. Those usually get universally panned by the Burg crowd, despite their enormous expense.

EDIT: As for invinotheresverde's list above, I would agree that would have been "the list" of famous domestic pinots several years ago. But many pinot focused wineries have popped up and/or have become more prominent in recent years, and they seem to be much more serious about their craft than some of the older big names.

[invinotheresverde]

I've tried Arcadian, Copain and Siduri from that list. Still no love on my part.

Seems PN and I just aren't meant to be. I probably won't stop trying, though...

[hcbk0702]

Rhys is probably the best on that list. See if you can find a bottle somewhere. Each of their pinots are single vineyard and there are very discernible differences between them.

[Cary]

The thing is all those producers make various bottles of AVA and single vineyard wines. Some of the wines, improve greatly with a couple years of bottle age. Drunk young, they are closed and difficult to enjoy.

Siduri itself makes probably around 20 single vineyard designates each year each with varying "style" depending on the vineyard from which it was sourced.

The cheaper $20-35 bottles from the famous producers will just not be as interesting and I can see how you could see them as "light" and "uninteresting".

Try the 2007 Joseph Swan Cuvee de Trois for $27-30. Easy to enjoy now, but would also improve with a couple years of bottle age.

New World pinot noir, like Burgundy, is a heartache. Lots and lots of mediocre pinots available in the marketplace.

Try to get your hands on some single vineyard designates of Anthill, Rhys, Littorai, and Copain and shove them away in your cellar/storage unit for a couple of years.

[invinotheresverde]

I didn't write all the single vineyards, and just named the producers, because it was quicker and I didn't want to go look for my notes.

[njfoodies]

Couldn't agree more on the Rivers-Marie, Rhys-Alesia, Anthill, Copain, Siduri, Kistler, Marcassin, and Aubert. I love Kosta Browne if I am in the mood for that kind of pinot, but a lot of people absolutely hate it, which I find hard to believe. I love them, but I have to be in the mood for a wine in that style. Loring falls into that same category, as well as some of Siduri's. All to my liking, unless I am in the mood for a more classic, old world Burg like wine. I guess I need to try the others again for a revisit! -mJ

[mengathon]

I must say, the Marcassin Marcassin Vineyard pinot is pretty damn tasty. It is super high alcohol, but it's still balanced, especially when young. Old age, however, creeps up on it very quickly.

[cimui]

I feel the same way about beaujolais, invinotheresverde, so I sort of feel your pain. No matter how 'good' a bottle supposedly is, I really just don't fully get it.

That said, do try to track down hcbk's Rhys suggestion. I agree that a good pinot noir is really, really hard to find. (Wasn't <<SIdeways>> all about how hard it is to make a perfectly balanced PN?)

[Politeness]

cimui: "(Wasn't <<SIdeways>> all about how hard it is to make a perfectly balanced PN?)"

He was looking for a pinot noir made in Southern California; consequently, that flick did a horrible disservice to pinot noir. Pinot noir needs some frost and stress to bring out its best; it hails from Bourgogne, after all. The high altitude Mendoza region of Argentina produces some very drinkable and even more affordable pinots noirs.

[Midlife]

It may have done a disservice to the grape, but it almost singlehandedly exploded PN in the US market until the economy brought everything between $15 and $50 to its knees.

[njfoodies]

What I find is that the pinot noir produced in South America lacks the fruit that North American pinot has. Granted, there are many different styles of pinot noir in just California alone. Sometimes you crave this, sometimes you don't, but that is part of the beauty of pinot as there are so many different styles. As I have said before, sometimes I crave something very Burgundian styled, and if I don't have a Burgundy that will fill that void in my cellar, I turn to Oregon. If I am in the mood for s fruit forward pinot with tons of cola, I head to the cellar and grab something from the Santa Rita Hills. If I want a high alcohol fruit bomb, I can turn to Russian River and grab a Kosta Browne out of the cellar.

There are just so many options as far as pinot goes from California and Oregon alone, that I find it hard when someone cannot find something that appeals to them. There are however those who just plain and simple do not like pinot.

I'll say that I am not a big fan of man pinot from South America, New Zealand, Aussie, etc. It just doesn't suit my tastes, but that is me.

It's been said before that Sideways had a negative effect on pinot, and sure, it drove prices through the roof. Nothing worse than paying $30+ fpr a pinot that you used to pay $12 for. It stink, but I still love the juice. And obviously the consumer is paying it, and the wines are selling. Regardless, I miss the old pricing! =( -mJ

[Brad Ballinger]

I like pinot noir. I don't like (most) Pinot Noir. Of the latter, I will drink Evesham Wood, La Cadeau, Mount Eden, and Dehlinger.

[Bill Hunt]

To address your title, I doubt it. Many probably suffer for "Sideways" backlash. I find this similar to the AVC movement of a few decades ago, and then the anti-Merlot movement spurred on by "Sideways."

Now, you make a great point in the body copy. I find that PN is suffering, just as Merlot did 20 years ago. Popularity can kill a varietal. When accountants and bankers take over the vineyard, and base their clients' plantings on popularity, over-cropping, insipid wines usually follow. While great to very good PN's still exist, and probably in slightly higher quantities, they are overshadowed by millions of gallons of poor examples, that still sell. The only hope for PN is that it is a difficult grape to grow and produce into wine, so the Merlot profit engine is not in place - yet. I hope that the popularity does not get to that point, or the point of Chardonnay in the past.

I see similar with Syrah/Shiraz. Too many producers selling too much mediocre wines, just because it's been deemed "hot," by someone.

Just as it was difficult to find good Merlots (I'm really speaking US/domestic here) at a point in the past, it's getting tougher to sort through the legions of PN, to get to the good ones, whether one wishes to go Burgundian, or for a PN that thinks it's a Syrah. Actually, I have found ones on each end of that specturm, that I really have enjoyed. At least in general terms, PN is a very food-friendly grape.

Now, what I have found really difficult is the "cheap" <US$20 PN's. Just a few $'s up, and the market does open a bit. <$20 it's a different "ball game." Recently, I was pointed to two different Beringer PN's, that squeaked under the bar, and they were OK. Still, these did not give me enough of a thrill to get me to spend less. For me, it's about the enjoyment, and fortunately not about the $. I'll pay more, and drink less, so long as I get the pleasure.

Over the next 5 years, I predict that there will be more PN's and many of us will enjoy them less. Then, it'll be another varietal. Sauvignon Blanc keeps hanging around, and is a food-friendly wine as well. Now, if the world could just decide between NZ and Bordeaux...

Hunt

[duck833]

In Oregon the 08's are a little different animal. I am finding lots of very drinkable PN's for $20 and under. With a little age on them they will be even better.

With lots of 07's still in the system it appears most wineries are holding down prices, even though yields in 08 were down. I believe that those that are trying to sell PN's for the really big bucks are going to have lots of inventory for a long time.

A lake of PN is building in Oregon right now, will be interesting to see if we can drink it all!

[Bill Hunt]

Duck,

Good observations. It will be interesting to see how things sort out over the next 2-3 years. Some "players" are not conceeding that there has been a change in world economies, while some seem to be atop it. Time will tell.

For me, it's about the return, the ROI, and less about the uint cost. Still, I need that "bang for [whatever] the buck,"] and do look closely for it.

Personally, I do love many of the OR producers' wines, but also gravitate to the other end of the domestic spectrum. Each gets tons of "silver stars," depending on how well-made they are.

From a purely economic point, I hope that OR does some great things, and can hold sensible prices for them.

Thanks,

Hunt