664299 Tue Nov 03 04:23:09 -0800 2009 128 29 Not About Food 0 5149793 i'm sorry, but i think a guy in a baseball hat at l'espalier in fact is being pretentious by trying to show he's "powerful" and "important" enough to disregard convention. it reeks of being a nouveau riche poseur. Mon Nov 02 12:47:34 -0800 2009 30273 hotoynoodle 1 5149941 ITA hoyoynoodle. I cringe when I see someone wearing a hat while eating in a restaurant -- whether I'm in L'Espalier or somewhere far lower on the $-chain. I haven't been to the new L'Espalier location but I adored the old one and we had a few very fancy, very special, very delicious meals there. Sara Mon Nov 02 13:20:57 -0800 2009 5149793 10458 owen_meany 1 5150027 A-men. It is part of a general failing in consideration and public behavior. One thing I enjoy at Locke-Ober is that the patrons are, generally, showing some respect via their attire. I shall haveto give l"espalier a try when next in town Mon Nov 02 13:39:37 -0800 2009 5149793 107060 hazelhurst 2 5150045 Re Locke-Ober, I saw some smarmy weasel get turned away from the dining room a few months back despite his loud protestations that his very informal attire cost a *lot* of money. The host offered to seat him in the bar, but this guy left in a huff, a mercy in my book. http://mcslimjb.blogspot.com/ Mon Nov 02 13:43:48 -0800 2009 5150027 10143 MC Slim JB 3 5150096 I don't like dressing up, am often underdressed for just about everything and *really* don't understand the people who care what other people are dressed like at an event - particularly something like a restaurant as I'm focused on the food & people I'm with, not the people around me. That being said, if a place wanted to not let me in due to what I'm wearing, that's their choice. As much as I don't understand dress codes, I *really* don't understand some dufus claiming that their clothing was expensive and thus should be allowed as an exception to a dress code. Much like people talk about voting with their wallet, in effect that's what the establishment is doing as well - they've decided that it is worth losing the business of the person who doesn't match their dress code in order to foster good will among their other patrons. I've been barred from places for all sorts of dress codes (sometimes me, sometimes a companion) - not just 'dressing up' types ... it happens, that's their choice to have such a policy, and I find that it often works just as well as a filter on my end as well (the 'would i really enjoy this place?' angle ... but that's generally for club, bar, music venue, etc type dress codes). Mon Nov 02 13:57:55 -0800 2009 5150045 111910 jgg13 4 5150137 It's a matter of empathy, in my book. Is it really that hard to comprehend why someone celebrating their 60th birthday and paying a lot of money to do so would want to feel as though other people had a similar sense of the specialness of the venue, if not the occasion? It's like a costume party where one guest doesn't bother with a costume: it seems kind of lazy and rude. http://mcslimjb.blogspot.com/ Mon Nov 02 14:07:07 -0800 2009 5150096 10143 MC Slim JB 5 5150198 I'm assuming you're talking about the second half of my first paragraph? I understand that people care, but it just strikes me as odd. Then again, there are things which I *do* care about that others find odd to. I do tend to avoid places where I'll feel out of place if I don't want to dress up, but I still find the whole idea that dressing up is part of the fun as being silly. Funny you mention costume parties, as I hate making/wearing costumes as well. I avoid costume parties, but some times the hosts will twist my arm into going when I say I'm not going due to not wanting to wear a costume. In that situation, who is at fault? I'd argue the host, not me. Mon Nov 02 14:24:39 -0800 2009 5150137 111910 jgg13 6 5150222 I was responding to the part of your post where you say, "I *really* don't understand the people who care what other people are dressed like at an event ". You're not alone. There used to be fairly clear standards of dress and behavior for a variety of public venues and social occasions. We've obviously moved away from them as a society. Some of us prefer the old ways and are trying vainly to hang onto them in a few select situations. I spend a lot of time in restaurants, so lamenting the decline in dress sense in fine-dining settings is a hobbyhorse of mine. We're hopeless fuddy-duddies or steadfast upholders of good manners, depending on your perspective. http://mcslimjb.blogspot.com/ Mon Nov 02 14:34:08 -0800 2009 5150198 10143 MC Slim JB 7 5150305 Gotcha. As I said, we all have things where you'll be a hopeless fuddy-duddy or steadfast upholder of the old ways, so I understand that part. :) This is not all that different to my own personal war to stop the current trend towards top replying to emails, using proper signature delimiters and other such things - in that arena I see myself as a steadfast upholder of good manners but many folks view it as being a hopeless fuddy-duddy. And just to reiterate, I have no problem with places wanting to have a dress code even if I don't like them. That's their choice to make, and if one doesn't want to conform they don't have to go there. The only time I personally think dress codes are stupid are when an establishment represents itself as a bastion of some sort of counterculture and are only serving to enforce conformity among what is supposedly a non-confirmist group of patrons, e.g. the now defunct ManRay. Mon Nov 02 15:04:31 -0800 2009 5150222 111910 jgg13 5 5150291 It's not just empathy--its decor (and decorum). Anyone who has ever eaten in a badly or incongruously designed restaurant has seen that the environment can very much impact the experience. Sure, the food might taste exactly the same but still something can feel very off when things don't line up. It drives me crazy when i go into a nicer restaurant and they play smooth jazz...it's cheesy. One of DC's nicest restaurants used to have a front bar area with inexpensive lunch entrees, and they had hideous 80s paintings on the wall that made it seem extremely tawdry. I realize not everyone has similar reactions to the same things, but dress codes, even loose ones, are one way to somewhat unify the experience. I wouldn't advocate a truly formal dress code in even the finest restaurant, but I don't think it is a bad thing to align the type of dress with the type of restaurant--and to do so with rules if mores aren't followed implicitly. The guests in a busy restaurant inevitably become its biggest visual aspect and sloppy guests make the restaurant seem sloppy too. Mon Nov 02 14:59:24 -0800 2009 5150137 184951 hckybg 5 5151381 my b/f is a jeans and t-shirt kinda guy and HATES dressing up. he telecommutes for work, so nobody at the firm knows he's working in his pajamas half the time. however begrudgingly, he will wear a suit and tie for dinner to someplace like l'espalier, or for a dinner with clients and the boss. he would never dream of eating anyplace nice with a hat on. kelly's roast beef, sure. but if the place is even one step up from plastic cutlery, he knows better. Tue Nov 03 04:59:52 -0800 2009 5150137 30273 hotoynoodle 3 5150150 Dei gratia! After an absence of many years in there I called for reservations a few years ago and, after we took care of details, the woman on the telephone gently prodded me about the expected attire. I assured her that people at my table would look as though they were sitting in the cafe in 1965..as, indeed, we had been in 1965. A friend's aunt was famously--in his family--thrown ouot of the Ritz bar circa 1970 for trying to get in with "hot pants." (she could wear them too!) I suspect she knew it would be A Scene. Anyway, even her nearest and dearest gave the Ritz loud cheers for that one. As should be obvious, i am that WASP so often disparaged for living in the past. Mon Nov 02 14:09:45 -0800 2009 5150045 107060 hazelhurst 1 5150547 Noodle, I have done the annual Union Boat Club row from the Charles to Nahant, and I assure you that upon our arrival and subsequent dinner, no man was wearing a hat indoors. It is profoundly disrespectful for a man to wear a hat at a table. I would compare the lack of etiquette and respect to barn animals, except that I don't want to disparage the animals. Mon Nov 02 16:38:36 -0800 2009 5149793 57170 Veggo 2 5150565 Loud cheers from this quarter...of course, I go back to the day when a man doffed his hat when passing a church..or, at the least, touched the brim. Mon Nov 02 16:44:15 -0800 2009 5150547 107060 hazelhurst 3 5151539 Just curious, does anyone know where the custom of men removing hats indoors originated? It seems like these things usually derive from something fairly practical way back when which slowly built up into some sort of anachronistic nod to a much earlier age. Other times, like with the tie, the story is just that some fashionistas decided they liked the look and it evolved. Tue Nov 03 06:23:56 -0800 2009 5150565 111910 jgg13 4 5151560 men of lesser rank would remove their hats when greeting or meeting men of a higher station, i.e., knights, lords, kings, etc. maybe so it wouldn't fall off when they were bowing in deference? lol. Tue Nov 03 06:28:42 -0800 2009 5151539 30273 hotoynoodle 5 5151680 Interesting, thanks. I did a brief search on google but there was too much noise where "history" meant 50-100 years ago and involved folks like Veggo whining that people don't do it anymore. That's not at all what I was asking ;) Tue Nov 03 07:17:30 -0800 2009 5151560 111910 jgg13 4 5151604 Maybe when australopithicus man invented 'the roof' , he realized that he no longer required a 'hat' to protect him from rain and sunlight while indoors. Then he invented the 'hatrack', a device now rarely used in Boston and New York by those born after 1970. A nice felt fedora is an attractive accessory. Humphrey Bogart wore them well, as did many gentlemen in that period. But a backward baseball cap is undistinguished outside of the ballpark and inside a nice restaurant. Tue Nov 03 06:46:36 -0800 2009 5151539 57170 Veggo 5 5151624 To speak plainly, Veggo, "a backward baseball cap is undistinguished outside of the ballpark and inside a nice restaurant" and the person wearing a cap thusly looks like a dufus especially inside a nice restaurant. It's a matter of dignity and decorum. Tue Nov 03 06:54:54 -0800 2009 5151604 75332 Gio 6 5151672 the only place a backwards baseball cap doesn't look idiotic is in a hip-hop video. Tue Nov 03 07:14:55 -0800 2009 5151624 30273 hotoynoodle 7 5151683 Even hip hop artist don't wear backwards caps anymore. They are more "askew" rather then being completely backward. Tue Nov 03 07:20:06 -0800 2009 5151672 10195 KTinNYC 8 5151756 lol. ok, tell that to all the wanna-be kids i see on the subway! Tue Nov 03 07:43:12 -0800 2009 5151683 30273 hotoynoodle 9 5151787 I saw a good one the other day in providence. Brim was flat as a pancake, the actual cap part stood real high. If he was facing towards 12 o'clock the brim was facing to 7 o'clock and was on roughly a 30 degree angle. Tue Nov 03 07:56:02 -0800 2009 5151756 111910 jgg13 10 5151821 I believe that's very trendy now. To be worn with the pants at half mast past the plumber's whatsits. Top of boxers must show. It's all the rage. Tue Nov 03 08:07:33 -0800 2009 5151787 75332 Gio 10 5151877 no need for jealous rage. just copy it. Tue Nov 03 08:24:00 -0800 2009 5151787 57170 Veggo 8 5151805 That ought to cinch the deal at the job interview! Tue Nov 03 08:01:42 -0800 2009 5151683 57170 Veggo 7 5153183 or you're the catcher on a baseball team..:) Tue Nov 03 14:40:07 -0800 2009 5151672 10111 9lives 7 5155461 The only time I look cool or distinguished is when I turn my cap around to shoot pictures. You have to with a big camera. Then I look cool too because I bear some resemblance to Spielberg. Wed Nov 04 10:43:39 -0800 2009 5151672 137946 Scargod 8 5157015 So you're saying you're a legend in your own eye? Wed Nov 04 19:32:13 -0800 2009 5155461 75332 Gio 9 5157836 No, just cool. However to address the OP, I think Spielburg doesn't wear a "gimme cap" to look powerful or important. I doubt he, or I, would wear a cap in a fancy place. Some who wear caps regularly would think that Bennigan's or Friendly's was fancy, but they would not take off their cap. Thu Nov 05 07:39:34 -0800 2009 5157015 137946 Scargod 6 5152759 There's a funny photo going around via email that shows a guy watching a baseball game with his baseball capyon backwards. He's shielding his eyes from the sun with his hand! The caption says, "He couldn't find a cap with the visor on the front.". He does look like a dufus. I think I saw him at L'Espalier. Tue Nov 03 12:46:26 -0800 2009 5151624 56815 pemma 4 5152313 The story I've heard goes back to medieval times. A knight entering a friendly place would remove his helmet to show peaceful intentions: it exposed his identity and rendered him vulnerable. On the other hand, those who were entering a place with hostile intentions would keep their helmets on as they sacked and pillaged. Don't know whether that's the origin or not, but it is consistent with modern military uniform regulations. The rule is that you remove your cover when entering a building **unless** you are under arms. If you're carrying a weapon, you're required to leave your hat on at all times. Tue Nov 03 10:28:30 -0800 2009 5151539 58743 alanbarnes 5 5152334 Also interesting, and makes sense. Seems pretty similar wtih the history of saluting (at least as I understand it), which would also make sense. So does that mean if someone wanted to go to a fine dining restaurant in order to sack it that they could leave their baseball cap on backwards? Tue Nov 03 10:33:29 -0800 2009 5152313 111910 jgg13 5 5152393 I think your story is right, but that you're off by a couple eras. Classical Greco-Roman art depicts soldiers removing their helmets as a gesture of peaceful intent, and the custom in the Catholic and Orthodox churches of the laity removing headwear dates nearly to the beginning of the Church. It could even be a far older custom than that. It's one of those friendly gestures that just seems to make enough sense, and to be universal enough, that it could very well go back to the dawn of civilization. Tue Nov 03 10:49:58 -0800 2009 5152313 36408 danieljdwyer 2 5151383 i have never seen an animal don a hat of its own accord either. :) Tue Nov 03 05:00:49 -0800 2009 5150547 30273 hotoynoodle 2 5151414 Yes! For me, this has less to do with the actual hat itself than about being conscientious about how our actions and attitudes affect others. I am teaching my small son to take his hat off when he goes indoors, especially at restaurants. Not being an etiquette master, I frankly don't give a hoot about the hat itself, but I do want him to know that, as civilized human beings, we should pay attention to the footprints (carbon and otherwise) we leave behind. Restaurants are social interactions - we are in a relatively public setting surrounded by a bunch of people we don't know who are paying money (whether a lot or a little) to enjoy their little bit of social and culinary heaven. If someone wants to do/say/wear/smell like whatever they feel like, then they should eat at home. If, by contrast, they want to enjoy an experience and be treated by others with respect, they need to first confer that respect upon others. Tue Nov 03 05:21:42 -0800 2009 5150547 186923 Cachetes 1 5151445 Maybe things are different in different parts of the world but, where I am, good manners would still suggest that you don't wear hats indoors. I know things have relaxed over the years and, thankfully, I now find it extremely rare to find places that still require men to wear a jacket (I can think of a couple of Michelin starred places, but that's it). I'm all for "smart casual" in upper end places, but hat wearing is not "smart casual", IMO Tue Nov 03 05:41:31 -0800 2009 5149793 154102 Harters 1 5151498 i like how tony soprano dealt with this situation: he walked up to the offender, asked him to remove his cap because they took the bleachers out a year ago, sat back down and sent a bottle of wine to his table. priceless. Tue Nov 03 06:03:31 -0800 2009 5149793 12568 ericalloyd 1 5151875 I'm a fan of dressing for the occasion and the venue. A couple of months ago, I went to Cafe Boulud. I was on vacation and it was a special treat. Almost everyone in the restaurant was dressed, IMO, appropriately for the time of day and the level of restaurant. There was one fellow who was not dressed appropriately. He was a youngish man, in his early 20s and his date was dressed very nicely. The guy was wearing jeans and a short-sleeved, screen-printed t-shirt. Rather than putting him off to the side or in a less visible seat, the staff put t-shirt-guy and his date right smackdab in the middle of the dining area. He looked miserably uncomfortable and self-conscious. I suspect he'll dress appropriately for his next dinner date. I would love to see dress codes more often and that they be enforced. I don't care for the sloppy, too casual dress that seems to be the style these days. I am very well on my way to becoming a curmudgeon. Tue Nov 03 08:22:53 -0800 2009 5149793 88544 Ima Wurdibitsch 1 5152086 i wonder if this thread could discuss the (for lack of better terms) "texas cowboy hat phenomenon"? seems to create issues with dining, most noticeably when its a large table of gentlemen all sporting said cowboy hats? being respectable gentlemen they all remove the immaculate white hats at table-- so then apparently each gentleman gets a chair, and also each hat gets *its* own. an 8-top becomes a 16 top. i observed this many times when the rnc was in town, even at brunch, and i confess that it still bothers me to think about it. the hat thing is obviously a matter of national pride among texans, and i don't want to tread. i think this may be a special case, where restaurants should make special arrangements for these very large hats, in the same way that babies and toddlers are accommodated with special seating. how do others accommodate the texas hat? how is it handled in texas? please educate this ignorant northerner. Tue Nov 03 09:30:38 -0800 2009 5149793 46030 soupkitten 2 5154074 Native Texan here. First off, we all make fun of the guys with the immaculate white hats. You may have heard the phrase "All hat and no cattle": to a native Texan, anybody wearing a giant immaculate white hat might as well be wearing a sign that says "I'm a poseur, and chances are very good that I'm not really from here." (Example: George W. Bush -- who was born in New Haven and educated at Philips Andover and Yale -- wore a lot of cowboy hats.) But to answer your question: in Texas, we have these things called "hat racks." They're remarkably effective. Tue Nov 03 21:31:18 -0800 2009 5152086 17548 BarmyFotheringayPhipps 3 5155803 "all hat no cattle"-- haha. they must be the guys who also drive the immaculate white 4x4 pickup trucks-- without trailer hitches. . . and *with* immaculate bed-liners. in that case we've got 'em here, too, usually sans hats though. by "hat rack"-- sorry to ask such a specific question-- do you mean the free-standing 6-7 foot tall item with pegs on all 4 sides ? and are these interspersed around restaurants in texas? is it the kind of thing a server would bring out? because up here we have (permanently installed) "coat racks"-- we need these items at certain times of year for all of our parkas and mufflers and mittens and other cold-weather paraphernalia. since everybody (in cold weather) uses these "coat racks" regardless of age, gender, or poseur status, they tend to be of the "mounted on wall board with pegs at 5 inch interval" variety, often placed near the door of the establishment (in a place that does not check coats). everybody squeezes several hundred pounds of wool and down and cashmere and fleece onto these things for 3-5 months of the year at any given time, but these particular hats would seem to be too large to be able to fit on the "coat rack" pegs. so perhaps we unknowingly offended guests who are used to wide open hats-only accommodations, with our cramped and often double-decker peg and hook arrangements. a last question-- is is considered an affront if one person touches or moves another person's cowboy hat when it is not being worn? i have never dared to do this-- kinda seems like it would be like sitting on someone else's motorcycle. but i am wondering if it ever could be considered acceptable for a serving person to do this. how about if a server asked a party of four hat-wearing gentlemen if s/he could take the hats, and bring them to an office area for the duration of a meal, in order to sit the four persons at a 4-top rather than at an 8-top? or would this be insulting? i gather that it's not acceptable to stack the hats, and i would infer that no hat should touch another hat, is this right? Wed Nov 04 12:21:15 -0800 2009 5154074 46030 soupkitten 4 5157245 Only the above-mentioned poseurs would be tools enough to care about any of that. Honestly, they're just hats. Wed Nov 04 22:25:33 -0800 2009 5155803 17548 BarmyFotheringayPhipps 5 5158003 but there you see our problem. a server can't walk up to a table and say "what would you poseurs like me to do with your lame hats, you bunch of tools?" ;-P the hat wearing crowd (and their hats) must be treated respectfully like any other customers. you can't throw a hat on the floor under the table, or grab it and move it around the restaurant, any more than you can do this with a lady's handbag. i do gather that some of these hats are very expensive, though i have no idea how to identify this. no matter what i, or the majority of folks, think about the hat-wearers, they are a special case and their accessory is large enough that it creates special problems in dining areas. i assure you that my questions are very sincere. what the heck do we do with guys who are connected to their huge cowboy hats? how is this handled in areas where this is very common? can anybody give me a suggestion? Thu Nov 05 08:38:09 -0800 2009 5157245 46030 soupkitten 6 5158091 Try men's hats = women's hats, purses and/or bags. Men can't have an accessory? Usually a restaurant can accommodate these items. How do you know a poseur from the real deal? Does it mean that women may be poseurs when they wear stylish or unnecessary hats, but men can't? Aren't women's hats often worn at the table? Thu Nov 05 09:07:36 -0800 2009 5158003 137946 Scargod 7 5158127 women's hat were orginally a symbol of modesty -- not the same deal as men's. at daniel in nyc once, this woman had on such an enormous hat that two parties the maitre d' attempted to seat next to her each refused the table! Thu Nov 05 09:20:15 -0800 2009 5158091 30273 hotoynoodle 7 5158160 but i *am* advocating respect, Scar. my question doesn't have anything to do with what folks think is fashionable or not, and i'm not personally making any judgments, as it is not my place to do so (and most chowhounds would concur). my question is: "what to logistically (yet respectfully) *do* with these large accessories that not everyone, in my area, wears?" are you saying that it's considered proper for men to wear cowboy hats at table? this is not my experience, if so. Thu Nov 05 09:30:42 -0800 2009 5158091 46030 soupkitten 8 5158190 In all the restaurants, not chains or lobster shacks, I have eaten in there were coat (and hat) checkrooms. That's the place for large western hats, I would think. Thu Nov 05 09:42:40 -0800 2009 5158160 75332 Gio 9 5158201 As many have pointed out, in some warmer climates there are no check areas. I think for men and women, it's nice to have a place to put accessories, but it can be frustrating to have to hold a purse/hat in your lap the entire meal. Thu Nov 05 09:45:02 -0800 2009 5158190 107671 queencru 10 5158218 I should have edited my post. Once again, I responded without reading further down the thread. I should say I hate to eat with my handbag on my lap, therefore I usually sling it over the back of the chair or on the chair arm. In a booth, no problem. Thu Nov 05 09:50:09 -0800 2009 5158201 75332 Gio 8 5158279 IIR, you are from Minnesota? Regardless, there are eating establishments in Texas where real cowboys don't take their hats off. Most places have a row of pegs or the free-standing coat and hat racks as commonly seen. True, a big hat is a problem. If there are lots of coats and hats a large hat gets knocked off easily. Where cowboy hats are routinely present or commonplace, people and restaurants have a way of working it out. I suspect it is the upscale place you are referring to who doesn't know how to accommodate a large Stetson. If they are upscale they should have a coat room and take care of it. Thu Nov 05 10:08:23 -0800 2009 5158160 137946 Scargod 9 5158463 "Real" cowboys have recently dismounted from a horse having accomplished some type of ranching activity. "Real" cowboys aren't bankers, lawyers, corporate execs, etc. When our lives were entwined with ranchers, they didn't wear their hats in restaurants. I believe it's easy enough to ask "do you have anyplace to keep this for me?" just as one would if arriving with a cumbersome package of any sort. Thu Nov 05 11:00:33 -0800 2009 5158279 131001 c oliver 10 5159296 C Oliver--okay, this post is very useful from the customer pov. i have done the same type of thing when i arrive at a restaurant carrying a motorcycle helmet (no way i'm going to wear that at table ;-P). i've asked the server or host to stash it somewhere for me and they are always good about finding an out of the way place for it. otoh i don't care if the helmet is put on the floor or whatever and i don't need the helmet to go along w any self image. (and yes, i prefer to leave the helmet strapped to the bike but some neighborhoods or busy streets you don't want to do this) but from the service staff's pov the cowboy hat is very similar to a lady's handbag. it's an accessory that seems "attached" to its wearer, and it's problematic to ask to *take* the hat, as it would be to take the handbag? i agree that if the hat was offered by the wearer it would simplify things greatly, but ime the customers who wear the hats seem to want them with them, even if they are not being worn. is it ever proper for a server or host to offer to take a large hat from a customer for the duration of a meal? as an aside, we have extended family in east montana who have been cattle ranchers for several generations. the late patriarch of the family was undoubtably a real cowboy and wore a cowboy hat very well. when he stepped through a doorway he would smoothly with his left hand remove his hat (going inside) or put it on (going outside). Jack did this from the age of 9 or 10 until his death at age 92. he was a real western gentleman, it was a bone-deep reflex, and i can't imagine him ever sitting down at a table with his hat on. he bought a new hat each year and that was his "dress" hat, worn to town, church, etc. after a year the "dress" hat became his everyday work hat. he would never buy a white hat (or a white truck) because these items must work hard and not show dirt and wear. the restaurant customers with hats, ime, bear absolutely zero resemblance to Jack. just an observation. Thu Nov 05 15:16:57 -0800 2009 5158463 46030 soupkitten 11 5159525 Re: the late Jack...I like it..I like him. Thu Nov 05 16:50:42 -0800 2009 5159296 107060 hazelhurst 11 5159667 soupkitten, I love the Jake story also. And, definitely, two hats at least (maybe a second dressy one for winter). I can just picture him. And ya only wore one of those big, belt buckles if you won it (and not for being salesman of the month). All the rest ARE poseurs imo. I think it would be quite appropriate either at the door or upon being seated, for the staff person to say "may I take your hat for you?" (hint, hint) Or as Gio suggested, it goes over the corner of the back of the seat. I've also put things, even soft items like a hat, under the chair between the four legs. Ideal? No. But better than your wearing your helmet at the dinner table :) Thu Nov 05 17:53:04 -0800 2009 5159296 131001 c oliver 1 5153505 Dress codes are in place because people are not aware to understand that attire matters. Since they're not aware, rules must be put in place. Why does it matter? Because when people go out to eat an upscale restaurant they are going there for the food as well as for the ambience -- the decor and the atmosphere of the room. It makes a big difference if everyone in the room is dressed in gym shorts and tank tops or jackets and ties. Why people can't see this is beyond me. If I'm going out to eat at a nice restaurant for a special occasion, I expect it to be appear like a special occasion is taking place. And don't even get me started on church/synagogue. I was at a funeral of all things recently and saw some guests show up in jeans and sneakers. No, they were neither children nor the bereaved family too much in shock to wear a suit nor doing this out of some tribute to the departed. It was as if they wore jeans and sneakers to every outing and didn't get that a funeral might somehow be different. Tue Nov 03 16:29:44 -0800 2009 5149793 248284 taos 2 5153859 Here, here, T Tue Nov 03 19:07:29 -0800 2009 5153505 11290 jfood 2 5154064 Hell, I flipped past coverage of Ted Kennedy's casket viewing (here in Boston, it was pretty much 24-hour coverage) and saw people standing on the line in t-shirts and shorts! At least attempt to make an effort. I cop to wearing a baseball cap most of the time when I'm outdoors -- I am both Scotch/Irish and bald, so the sun is not my friend, and my general everyday uniform of t-shirt and khakis is not conducive to a nice fedora (of which I own several, and which I look damn good in) -- and I admit that I don't always take it off if I'm in, say, Star Market or McDonald's, but I certainly know better than to wear one in a place that comes even close to having a dress code. Tue Nov 03 21:24:37 -0800 2009 5153505 17548 BarmyFotheringayPhipps 2 5154108 Wow. Jeans and sneakers to a funeral.... that's a new one -- for me, at least. How thoughtless. Not sure that it compares to the 'respect' one should show to a chef, but I do remember being pretty much put off by some rich, young Swiss kids showing up wasted at one of Berlin's most expensive Italian restos when my man and I were celebrating our anniversary. I guess it's obvious that we had dressed up for the occasion, and it's not a place that we could afford on a regular basis (make that _maybe_ once a year). They were wearing torn jeans, base-hats, and t-shirts. Come to think of it, it was maybe less their way of dressing but their behavior that threw me off -- they all ordered the tasting menu (roughly 120 €), started smoking even though it wasn't really allowed before 10 pm, and one of the kids left for the bathroom and never returned (presumably got sick) ... so they all left and paid after they were barely 3 courses into the 7-course menu. Bottom line is, money don't buy everything. But I guess it's up to the restaurant owner to decide what's more important. I would've enjoyed the dinner more if the kids hadn't been there, but won't pin-point it on their clothes. Oh, and it's "hear, hear", btw. Tue Nov 03 22:02:53 -0800 2009 5153505 116513 linguafood 3 5154808 Those kids are the very definition of what we in this part of the States (Boston, full of students from around the world, many of whom have rich parents) call Eurotrash. Wed Nov 04 08:01:31 -0800 2009 5154108 14386 BobB 3 5154957 Its also "money 'doesn't' buy everything", btw. The concept that anyone can be bothered by other people wearing a different style of clothing in a restaurant is beyond me. Wed Nov 04 08:38:23 -0800 2009 5154108 1089411 bbqdawg 4 5154993 Really? You mean the entire visual contents of the room are meaningless? I guess restaurants are wasting a lot of time and money on their decor then. Or do you have some sort of magic blind spot where people are concerned? Wed Nov 04 08:45:22 -0800 2009 5154957 14386 BobB 5 5155107 What I am saying is that if I am in a nice restaurant, and the person at the table to my right is wearing a Brooks Brothers suit, and the person at the table to my left is wearing jeans and a t-shirt, its not going to ruin my meal. And I can't comprehend how it would ruin anyone else's. Wed Nov 04 09:14:17 -0800 2009 5154993 1089411 bbqdawg 4 5155022 Love the avatar...let's change the scenario. You go to your favorite Q-pit. It's a basic hole in the wall, smoke coming out of the firepit, rustic, the smell of beer permeates and you walk in over the discarded peanut shells. The Dawg is dressed in your best UG sweatshirt, some torn jeans with last nights spaghetti sauce on it and some multi-color Cons on the tootsies, multi color from some unfortunate events at last weeks Frat party.. You enter the room and you feel a smack to your forehead. Inside your old picnic table and bench place is a new decor. White linen table cloths, servers with gloves, a host dressed in a tuxedo and every patron is wearing "black tie" apparel. Are you really saying that the scene in that environemtn "is beyond" you? Wed Nov 04 08:51:28 -0800 2009 5154957 11290 jfood 5 5155124 Oh come on, this discussion isn't about wearing dirty clothes with bodily fluids on them. We're talking about a suit and tie versus jeans and t-shirt. You're engaging in ridiculous hyperbole. Wed Nov 04 09:18:17 -0800 2009 5155022 1089411 bbqdawg 6 5155145 OK use your example...you walk into the above described Q-pit wearing jeans and a t-shirt. Are you really saying that the scene in that environment "is beyond" you? Wed Nov 04 09:23:42 -0800 2009 5155124 11290 jfood 7 5156038 If I was in the hypothetical restaurant you describe, wearing black tie, and someone came in dressed in jeans and a sweatshirt, it would not upset me, it would not ruin my meal, and I wouldn't proclaim the end of civilization as we know it. So yes, it is beyond me as to how others could react that way. Wed Nov 04 13:33:50 -0800 2009 5155145 1089411 bbqdawg 8 5156281 that's the easy answer from that point of view. the question was if you were the entry-person Wed Nov 04 14:46:15 -0800 2009 5156038 11290 jfood 9 5156307 Personally, I wouldn't be the "entry person". But thats NOT what this thread is about. I fail to see your point. Wed Nov 04 14:54:39 -0800 2009 5156281 1089411 bbqdawg 10 5156355 You just answered jfood's question with no response. Your quote - "The concept that anyone can be bothered by other people wearing a different style of clothing in a restaurant is beyond me." Thanks Dawg. Wed Nov 04 15:11:12 -0800 2009 5156307 11290 jfood 11 5156433 I won't reread this whole thread but don't remember anyone saying their meal would be "ruined." Perhaps someone did. More to the point, I believe, is that many of us would have all sorts of ambient factors effect the overall feeling of the event. Flourescent overhead tubes, plastic utensils or inappropriately dressed guests would all detract. Wed Nov 04 15:37:04 -0800 2009 5156378 131001 c oliver 12 5156460 Here's someone who said it: "I agree that sometimes other people's choice of attire can be amusing, but sometimes it just ruins the atmosphere of a fine dining establishment..." Wed Nov 04 15:44:30 -0800 2009 5156433 1089411 bbqdawg 13 5156479 That quote is actually (obviously) saying that the atmosphere would be ruined, not the meal. The atmosphere is a component contributing to your enjoyment of the meal, but ruined atmosphere does not equal ruined meal (even if it does indeed detract from overall enjoyment). Wed Nov 04 15:51:58 -0800 2009 5156460 111059 emmo42 13 5157485 I'm the one who wrote that, and as emmo points out, I did not say the meal would be ruined, but the atmosphere. It's akin to someone letting their cell phone ring while you're watching a play. It's distracting, disappointing, thoughtless and rude, but doesn't ruin the play. Thu Nov 05 04:55:23 -0800 2009 5156460 14386 BobB 14 5157508 Again, i fail to see how one can be distracted, disppointed or otherwise bothered by the fact that other people in a restaurant are dressed differently. Thu Nov 05 05:07:23 -0800 2009 5157485 1089411 bbqdawg 15 5157843 Perhaps you could just say "hey, it doesn't bother me but obviously it does bother alot of people so I will adjust my behavior accordingly." Surely each of us stifles an impulse to accommodate others at times. I think it harkens back to the beginning of civilization. Just a thought while having my first cup of coffee of the day :) Thu Nov 05 07:41:45 -0800 2009 5157508 131001 c oliver 16 5157880 You are misjudging me. I never said I condone inappropriate dress, and I don't think i've ever engaged in it. For example, I have never, and will never, wear a baseball hat in a nice restaurant. But if I'm in the said restaurant, and someone else is wearing one, I'm not going to get bent out of shape over it. Thu Nov 05 07:54:40 -0800 2009 5157843 1089411 bbqdawg 17 5157934 I apologize. I didn't reread this thread so I misunderstood. If you think it's inappropriate as most here do, then it's just a matter of personal response. It bothers some more than it does you. Such is life. You wouldn't be my reaction to ANY gum chewing --- not good :) Thu Nov 05 08:13:38 -0800 2009 5157880 131001 c oliver 6 5155148 actually, the whole discussion began with wearing baseball caps in a very formal dining room. Wed Nov 04 09:24:40 -0800 2009 5155124 30273 hotoynoodle 7 5155154 jfood has been wearing baseball hats since Mickey Mantle roamed the field. And he still takes it off every time he enters a building whether a house of worship or a CVS. Wed Nov 04 09:25:59 -0800 2009 5155148 11290 jfood 8 5155477 And that's just a small reason I hold you in such high esteem. We were at a friend's home many years ago (she's 85 now, was about 65 then) for Thanksgiving dinner. The good china, crystal, silver were all out, she'd been working for days on the meal. Her 40ish y.o. son (at that time) sat down across from me at the dinner table with his baseball cap on. I looked him straight in the eye, without a smile on my face and said, "Gordon, we all know you're bald. You don't need to try to hide it at your mother's beautiful dinner table." I've never been high on his list of favorite people since then but the cap came off and the others thanked me. Wed Nov 04 10:47:24 -0800 2009 5155154 131001 c oliver 9 5155494 :::::applause::::: Wed Nov 04 10:52:05 -0800 2009 5155477 10532 LindaWhit 9 5156981 I find the bald comment about as rude as wearing a cap at the table. Wed Nov 04 19:23:27 -0800 2009 5155477 157030 iluvtennis 7 5156011 hotoynoodle: that wouldn't bother me either. Wed Nov 04 13:25:12 -0800 2009 5155148 1089411 bbqdawg 2 5154701 I think that some people suffer from a form of sartorial autism - the very concept that clothing can be appropriate or inappropriate does not exist in their brains. Unfortunately, since this is rarely a fatal affliction, there is no medical research being done in search of a cure. Wed Nov 04 07:26:16 -0800 2009 5153505 14386 BobB 3 5154764 Only it's not the sartorially autistic who "suffer," it's those around them, judging by the comments on this thread. I couldn't care less what other people wear to a restaurant. The inappropriately dressed are often conversation starters, so bring 'em on. Wed Nov 04 07:48:21 -0800 2009 5154701 13722 small h 4 5154801 I agree that sometimes other people's choice of attire can be amusing, but sometimes it just ruins the atmosphere of a fine dining establishment in exactly the same way that any other visually jarring element can. This is why high-end restaurants put so much thought and effort into the look of the room, don't leave dirty dishes and stained tablecloths sitting on tables after a party leaves, etc. Unfortunately, all too few have the guts to ask their customers to follow suit (so to speak). Wed Nov 04 07:59:09 -0800 2009 5154764 14386 BobB 5 5155166 I can't help noticing smells and sounds, but I have a lot more control over sights (with the exception of things like a too-bright or too-dark room), because I can, ya know, turn my head. So I dislike strong perfume and cell phone conversations, but other people's clothes don't bother me. And if we're trying to police the "look" of the clientele, why limit it to clothes? Let's also keep out people who are too old, too young, too fat, too thin, or orange-skinned from self-tanner. And those with obvious comb-overs, obvious toupees, and cheap acrylic nails. Because who wants to see THAT? Wed Nov 04 09:29:16 -0800 2009 5154801 13722 small h 4 5154817 Yeah let's throw all decorum out the window. maybe people can sit there and pick their noses, pick up a bowl of soup and slurp it, their plates and lick that really great wine sauce, lean back, open their shirts scratch their bellies and belch. What a wonderful and advancing society that model brings tothe room. Jfood will stay away from that path of societal lobotomy. Wed Nov 04 08:03:10 -0800 2009 5154764 11290 jfood 5 5154963 I say this with love, jfood, but get over yourself. No one, least of all me, is advocating some sort of slobfest free-for-all at white tablecloth establishments worldwide. I said that *I* don't care. You can care all you want. You can stay up nights, caring. But to imply that some guy in a baseball cap at Per Se presages the decline of civilization is pretty silly. It wasn't that long ago that restaurants kept out African Americans and women in pants, for the same reason - that no civilized person would want to see such a thing. Wed Nov 04 08:40:01 -0800 2009 5154817 13722 small h 6 5155165 Score tied 1 to 1 small h. comparing keeping a person out for wearing a baseball hat to keeping a person out for skin color is as hypobolic as jfood's decline of civilization comment. Time to downshift the discussion buddy. :-) Wed Nov 04 09:29:14 -0800 2009 5154963 11290 jfood 7 5156036 Oh, good. Tie scores are my favorite. This thread made me remember the wedding I went to where the brother of the bride wore a track suit. That was entertaining. Wed Nov 04 13:33:20 -0800 2009 5155165 13722 small h 8 5156107 I went to a friend's wedding some years ago at which the groom wore dirty white sneakers with his tux. He remembered to bring the tux itself but forgot the shoes at home and didn't get formally dressed until the last minute. Wed Nov 04 13:53:26 -0800 2009 5156036 14386 BobB 9 5156299 Yet another reason that grooms should wear gowns, as brides do - then no one can see the shoes. I've also seen a sister of the bride show up in overalls. So now you know why I'm so nonchalant about restaurant-wear. I have pretty much seen it all, and it has ceased to concern me. Wed Nov 04 14:51:59 -0800 2009 5156107 13722 small h 10 5156363 dh showed up to his father's most recent marriage ceremony in jeans and and a polo. otoh i attended a funeral where a lot of kids at various stages of homelessness showed up. many were wearing jeans and sneakers and there were t-shirts but i could tell that everyone had gone to an effort to make themselves look presentable, and they probably wore the best (clean) clothes they owned. i have mixed feelings about restaurants. you assume that everyone who can afford to eat a meal out can afford the wardrobe to go along with the meal, at whatever price point. i think some folks could really show a little effort--flip flops, come on. but otoh i find that i myself am frequently underdressed in restaurants, often wearing nondescript yoga-type hoodies and even bandana-on-head in medium-nice places, because i'm still partially in "uniform" from work. the staff is usually very kind to me/us and never makes an issue-- perhaps because i'm usually dining out at odd hours. Wed Nov 04 15:13:33 -0800 2009 5156299 46030 soupkitten 5 5155041 "maybe people can sit there and pick their noses, pick up a bowl of soup and slurp it, their plates and lick that really great wine sauce," ~~ i have worked in fine dining many years and have seen patrons do all of these things and more. and some of them were in suits. Wed Nov 04 08:55:52 -0800 2009 5154817 30273 hotoynoodle 2 5154818 "Dress codes are in place because people are not aware to understand that attire matters. Since they're not aware, rules must be put in place." That, of course, is a subjective opinion which you and some restaurant owners hold. However, it is entirely a matter for a restaurant to set whatever rules it wishes. They may, for example, decide that it shall be a requirement for men to wear a jacket. I can then decide, as I do, not to give them my business. There are plenty of less old-fashioned places in my country that are more than happy to take my money without making a specific requirement as to what I will wear. I can look pretty smart dressed in chinos and polo shirt and it's what I normally wear for dining out. For upscale, say Michelin starred, I'd usually swap the polo for a "proper" , but still casual, shirt. By way of interest, one of the the regular contenders for "best restaurant in the world" - the Fat Duck - specifically states that it operates no dress code. At another contender - El Bulli - jeans would be OK. The UK's Good Food Guide used to indicate which restaurants operated a "jackets for men" policy but dropped it a few years ago as there were so few places still so old-fashioned as to require it. Wed Nov 04 08:04:10 -0800 2009 5153505 154102 Harters 3 5154910 I'm not a staunch advocate of jacket-and-tie dress codes, I just ask that some consideration be made by the patrons of upscale establishments not to offend others in their choice of dress. Chinos and a proper shirt are fine in almost all situations, it's the T-shirts, torn jeans, baseball caps, and ratty sneakers (trainers) or flip-flops that are the real turn-offs. Wed Nov 04 08:24:33 -0800 2009 5154818 14386 BobB 4 5155196 The difficulty here is that you ask people to show "consideration" so they do not "offend" others. This is clearly an issue of opinion as I cannot possibly know what about my clothes might offend you or the other diners. If a restaurant wishes to offer "consensus dining" it may adopt a dress code - and, as I say, diners can then choose whether to eat there or not. Where I am, many upscale places will state "smart casual", if they bother to state anything - it seems sufficient. However, my experience of eating in both Europe and America, suggests that there is generally a greater adherance to formality in America - such are cultural differences On a personal level, I am not phased by sitting at an upscale table adjacent to someone wearing a T-shirt, jeans and trainers. Or if they wear a suit. I am phased if it's a loud soup slurper. Wed Nov 04 09:37:45 -0800 2009 5154910 154102 Harters 5 5155524 Really? I find that Americans are on the whole very informally dressed, more so than in the UK. Being a great lover of dressing up, and having dragged some of my enormous wardrobe of frocks to the US, I often felt a bit overdressed in the (mostly pretty nice) restaurants we went to. Not that it bothered me <grin>. Wed Nov 04 11:02:17 -0800 2009 5155196 110146 greedygirl 6 5155586 Totally agree. I feel Americans have taken casualness / being comfortable to the next level. Supermarket shopping in sweats or pjs, students showing up to class in pjs and flipflops... not something you see too much of in Germany, unless you're in a 'lower class' part of town. Here in the US, it's just all about being comfortable and casual. Wed Nov 04 11:22:47 -0800 2009 5155524 116513 linguafood 6 5155689 Yes. When we researched our last trip, there were a number of places we would have like to have eaten at, but would not have met the dress code. Apart from the fact that we were on holiday and travelling light, I don't own a jacket as I have no need for one (and I only own one tie - a black one for funerals) Wed Nov 04 11:53:05 -0800 2009 5155524 154102 Harters 7 5155888 Well as I said, I like dressing up, and wearing a jacket is no big deal for Mr GG. In fact, since watching Mad Men, he's a big fan of the suit in general! I didn't notice any dress code in any of the restaurants we went to but then it's not a problem for me. I was pretty surprised that people would turn up to a $100 a head place in shorts. Wed Nov 04 12:44:15 -0800 2009 5155689 110146 greedygirl 3 5154969 Like Bob B the J&T is not a deal breaker. But when jfood is enjoying a $25+ entree type place having the ambience shattered by the last sentence in his post is unacceptable. Wed Nov 04 08:40:59 -0800 2009 5154818 11290 jfood 1 5155249 It's happened to me many times in my restaurant career. In fact, the first time it happened, I thought it was an isolated incident. Not at all: A customer enters a restaurant and is under-dressed (tee-shirt, torn shirt, shorts - usually cut-off, a $2.99 pair of flip-flops) or poorly dressed ('70s retro, "Goth," or some other affectation) or who's sporting more piercings than a pin-cushion or fluorescent blue hair -- the customer wonders *out loud* why the staff won't "take him/her seriously." There are many of dive bars and "up-to-the-minute" night spots where, perhaps, these individuals are held up as the ultimate in chic. Not, however, at an establishment which displays a sign reading "jackets required." Wed Nov 04 09:52:50 -0800 2009 5149793 270888 shaogo 2 5156266 Waiters at my regular places...who, at the very least are wearing neckties...have said that they appreciate someone dressed "properly" (meaning coat and tie for men) because the waiter takes it as a sign of respect. After all, the waiter is dressed up, sometimes in dinner jacket. But, hell, nowhere does one see a forest of suits anymore, even in fine hotels. Time was we were not allowed to arrive at a hotel in open neck shirts or in shorts..travel clothes, sure, but it was coat and tie for me from the time I was a child. I still expect it of the world but there you are. Wed Nov 04 14:42:03 -0800 2009 5155249 107060 hazelhurst 1 5155266 There was a long discussion about dress codes last year (not exactly the same, but, close). http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/601273 I said all I wanted to say there. Wed Nov 04 09:56:43 -0800 2009 5149793 24055 Atahualpa 1 5155568 What's the opposite of eye-candy? I sat across from a man (difficult to avert my eyes) who, at a nice resto at dinnertime, had on VERY wrinkled shorts and untucked shirt partiallly unbuttoned, a baseball cap and sandals that showed his unkempt toenails (I knew that part cause he had his legs stretched all the way out the other side of the table). Not a whole lot of appetite that night, let me tell ya :) Wed Nov 04 11:16:01 -0800 2009 5149793 131001 c oliver 2 5155590 That would be Visual-Optical Meal Interruption Technique - or, you could just use the acronym... Wed Nov 04 11:23:44 -0800 2009 5155568 88544 Ima Wurdibitsch 2 5155678 Fugly Wed Nov 04 11:49:13 -0800 2009 5155568 11290 jfood 1 5156388 So what does one do with their hat if there are no hat racks available or a free chair. I live in Los Angeles, the concept of hat racks and coat checks is absolutely foreign. For fun nights out, I like to wear a vest, hat and watch chain. I've gotten strange looks and been called a dandy but who cares. But when I go to a full restaurant, I'm stuck. I always take my hat off, most of the time there's a free chair. But if the restaurant is full, I'm reduced to trying to keep it on my lap or asking the hostess to hold on to it. Let's just say, I usually just get puzzled looks when I make the request. This of course is in mid to lower range restaurants. Upper tier restaurants take the request in stride. I think ever since it's gotten a bit trendy to wear porkpie or derby hats, LA people just keep their hats on while dining. It's not unusual to walk into a place and see several people who've kept their hats on or even the females with a fedora. So a request to hold a hat just causes confusion. Now that winter is coming, I expect to run into this problem more. I've got plenty of vests that I can only wear when it's cold and pairing a hat with it looks so natural. But I take my hat off when I get seated, even if it's a baseball hat and I'm eating at a diner. Wed Nov 04 15:22:54 -0800 2009 5149793 10746 Jase 2 5156451 I think you could probably do the same thing with a hat that someone does with a purse. Beside or under your chair if there's no extra chair(s). Wed Nov 04 15:41:14 -0800 2009 5156388 131001 c oliver 3 5157962 Can't put it under the chair. Too easily crushed by an errant foot or something. It's not as hardy as a purse. Just something I have to deal with occassionally. Most of the time there's an extra chair or we're in a booth. But if we're in a packed restaurant with small tables or a bar, forget it. The hat is staying on even though I know it's a breach of etiquette. There's just nothing I can do about it. Thu Nov 05 08:22:36 -0800 2009 5156451 10746 Jase 2 5157698 that's what coat check areas are for. i certainly wouldn't care to put my hat on the floor and i loathe doing it with my purse. yuk. Thu Nov 05 06:51:02 -0800 2009 5156388 30273 hotoynoodle 3 5157731 http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/638559 Thu Nov 05 07:00:41 -0800 2009 5157698 14386 BobB 3 5157752 Most places in warmer climates don't actually have coat checks. It requires you actually need a full coat for a good portion of the year to actually be useful. Thu Nov 05 07:08:57 -0800 2009 5157698 107671 queencru 3 5157851 Some restos in Rio have the cutest thing. It's like a half-size coat stand with little dowels coming out of the sides for hanging purses. Even the scuzziest sidewalk bar/cafe (where WE tend to hang out) is horrified if I put my purse on the floor. They will carry a chair over and put the bag on it. But I can see four cowboy hats being problematic :) Thu Nov 05 07:44:20 -0800 2009 5157698 131001 c oliver 3 5157973 As mentioned, I live in Los Angeles. The concept of coat checks and racks is an entirely foreign concept out here. I need a heavy jacket maybe a few days out of the year. Rest of the time, no jacket or a light sweater at worst. Which reminds me of the first time I ventured back east. I was completely puzzled by some of the random hooks under counters, etc until it was explained to me. Had a good laugh at myself and told everyone to just treat me like an ignorant visitor when I asked stupid questions. Thu Nov 05 08:26:09 -0800 2009 5157698 10746 Jase 1 5157887 Even McDonald's has a dress code of sorts; i.e., no shirt, no shoes, no service. I realize that the code is more health department dictated than anything else but it leads (clumsily) to my point. If I'm ordering my dinner through a clown's mouth in a place that has an indoor playground and serves meals wrapped in paper on a plastic tray, I'm not going to get in a snit about someone wearing their hat or flip flops or pajamas. True, I'm not going to like it but I'm also not going to be surprised. Another way of looking at this is from an employer/employee aspect. You, as the diner, are the employer. The people working in the restaurant are, for the time you're there, your employees. The boss sets the standard and should dress appropriately. Would those of you who don't have a problem with casual dress in a fine dining establishment be just as comfortable if your server showed up at your table in flipflops, a ball cap, and a t-shirt? Even when you were paying >$50 per person? Thu Nov 05 07:56:39 -0800 2009 5149793 88544 Ima Wurdibitsch 2 5157933 "Would those of you who don't have a problem with casual dress in a fine dining establishment be just as comfortable if your server showed up at your table in flipflops, a ball cap, and a t-shirt? Even when you were paying >$50 per person?" No, I wouldnt. As I've said earlier, for me, hats indoors are never acceptable unless they are required headgear for health and safety purposes (for instance, for covering the hair in food preparation areas). I would also suggest that flipflops are not appropriately safe footwear for servers who will be in and out of the kitchen area where there may be spillages of hot liquids or sharp/heavy implements dropped - if an employer allowed staff to wear them it would raise other questions in my mind about their practices. Taking you up on your suggestion that, as a customer , I am the boss and should set the standard, I think that's absolutely right. In which case, I couldnt care less if the owner of a fine dining establishment wishes her/his staff to wear T-shirts - I only care if they require me to wear a jacket or tie (in which case I won't be bothering them). Or, put another way, when I visit a fine dining restaurant which has a dress code that says "jacket for men preferred" and I visit wearing somethig much more casual, I do not object if most other diners are wearing a jacket. If they choose to wear a jacket, it does not spoil the enjoyment of my experience. Why would it - it is their choice and a matter for them, not for me. But do you think I should complain that I find them overdressed? Or does this dress thing only work the one way? Thu Nov 05 08:13:21 -0800 2009 5157887 154102 Harters 3 5157957 Amen! Thu Nov 05 08:20:51 -0800 2009 5157933 1089411 bbqdawg 3 5157980 Harters, I do think it's strange that you would rather not visit a restaurant than wear a jacket. What's the big deal? Thu Nov 05 08:29:02 -0800 2009 5157933 110146 greedygirl 4 5158182 It actually isnt a big deal - I mean it's not something that crosses my mind except when you see threads like this and want to engage in the discussion. But the issue for me is that wearing a jacket would detract from my enjoyment. I don't feel comfortable wearing a jacket - which is why I don't own one. When I'm inside a building that's already comfortably heated why would I want to wear an additional layer of clothing - it is more comfortable to be in a just a shirt. By way of comparison, when Mrs H dresses up, it seems to involve wearing less clothing not more :-) Most of my working life I had jobs that required jacket & tie. I loathed the formality and I never wore either outside of work. My final job, with the same employer, didnt require either - so I stopped. Now I'm retired and can please myself without constraint, I've absolutely no intention of ever going back to that formality. Of Britain's generally accepted top restaurants, only two (La Gavroche and Le Manoir) require jackets. I am happy to spend the rest of my life not having eaten at them whilst I can still be welcomed in my casual attire at all the other Michelin starred places in the country. We were at Northcote (one star) for dinner in August. Not a single diner was wearing a jacket or tie. None of the staff were wearing jackets (although the men were wearing ties). I don't believe what anyone was wearing detracted from anyone's enjoyment. There was a similar pattern of dress at other starred restaurants that we've eaten at fairly recently ( Hibsicus, Simon Radley at the Grosvenor, Fraiche, L'Enclume, Locanda Locatelli, Lindsay House). At Holbeck Ghyll, there was a greater ratio of jacket to non-jacket but that's Lake District country house hotels for you. Thu Nov 05 09:38:44 -0800 2009 5157980 154102 Harters 5 5158205 I'd just take it off as soon as I sat down! Shame to miss out on Le Gavroche's great lunch deal. ;-) Thu Nov 05 09:45:35 -0800 2009 5158182 110146 greedygirl 3 5158174 With over 40 plus years of helping "Clothists" to develop their "stink eye" and assisting the OTC Pharmaceutical Industry in its effort to sell Pepto Bismol (through the fear / loathing and angst I spread over the crappy way I dress) when going to dinner at all types of restaurants, I just want to say "you're welcome!" ;-D> Thu Nov 05 09:35:28 -0800 2009 5157933 108169 Servorg 2 5158507 Not to get off track, but the only boss in a restaurant is the owner or manager. They hire a waiter to serve their clientele. I think if more people remembered that, as clients of establishments we are recipients of service rather than masters of the domain, all would be much happier. (Not that I'm accusing you of being imperious or bossy - only that I think the analogy of the customer as boss is wrong.) Thu Nov 05 11:12:45 -0800 2009 5157887 186923 Cachetes 1 5159672 I honestly don't care if it's IHOP or Per Se. No hats. Not at breakfast, not at lunch, not at dinner. IMO - of course. Thu Nov 05 17:55:48 -0800 2009 5149793 131001 c oliver 2 5159851 ::applause:: Thu Nov 05 19:21:38 -0800 2009 5159672 88544 Ima Wurdibitsch 3 5159892 Thank you, madam. I'm a wordy OLD bitch :) Thu Nov 05 19:40:31 -0800 2009 5159851 131001 c oliver