664017 Sun Nov 01 23:44:15 -0800 2009 16 58 Italy 0 5148282 I am in search of all mom and pop hole in the wall restaurants in Rome. I love family run restaurants who are just in it for the love of food. What are your favorite places like this? Sun Nov 01 23:44:15 -0800 2009 1111303 sutcher 1 5148362 A lot of these are profiled in David Downie's recent book on the "terroir" restaurants of Rome, which I suggest you find and read.. But the assumption that folks are running a restaurant business with all its demands simply for the love of food is a little naive. Mon Nov 02 03:46:15 -0800 2009 5148282 11130 jen kalb 2 5149164 Right of course. But there is definitely a certain attitude that people can have similar to one that most chefs have in portland, where they are really doing what they are for the love of the food not to get rich. I actually have Terroir coming in the mail right now. I am hoping that it will be really helpful. Mon Nov 02 09:38:24 -0800 2009 5148362 1111303 sutcher 3 5149495 Downie's book has fairly good descriptions of the ownership and ambiance as well as the food. He definitely covers quite a number of smaller family operated establishments. In a neighborhood like Trastevere where we stayed last week and where there seem like 100s of small restaurants and correspondingly enormous flocks of young people/tourists he could be helpful, probably, in identifying those of higher merit. the single place we went to on his recommendation was quite good and pleasant. Personally, based on our own experiences over the years, Im not sure you will get your best renditions of Roman food in the smallest simplest places, but given the cost of restaurant dining, its certainly an attractive idea. Mon Nov 02 11:23:57 -0800 2009 5149164 11130 jen kalb 4 5150693 Thanks so much for your reply. I really appreciate the good advice on Downie's book and Rome in general. I'm really interested with what you said about not being sure that the best renditions of Roman food are in the smallest simplest places. Why is it that you feel this way? From what I have read and been taught about Italian Food in general, that it essentially is really simple fresh home cooking. So i am curious as to why that sort of cuisine would not show up in the smallest simplest places? Mon Nov 02 17:30:13 -0800 2009 5149495 1111303 sutcher 5 5150785 well, it certainly might. But a larger kitchen might be better at consistency, knocking out dishes correctly when under pressure. Or a place that charged more might use superior meat, say. When you get the Downie book read about the meat sourcing in the Testaccio restaurants and you will see what I mean about this. Last week when we were in Rome we ate lunch one day at Zampagna, on Via Ostiense near San Paolo (listed in Slowfood and Downie) which is a perfect example of the kind of place you are talking about., a simple family place, low prices, local clientele. The tonnarelli (both cacio pepe and gricia) were very good but there was a problem - the oxtail, in its delicious sauce, was undercooked and the oxtails themselves were skimpy. I say undercooked because where the meat could not be cut it would not come off the bone - it could hardly be gnawed off the bone - there was no dissolving of connective tissue. I ve never experienced this before and believe me, I was looking forward to my Roman coda. Whatever the reason may be, we have not had our best meals over the years in the tiniest, cheapest, simplest places, tho we have had very good meals in such places. We tend to gravitate more to the bourgeois trattorias where longer lunches and somewhat better house wines tend to be found. Mon Nov 02 18:08:08 -0800 2009 5150693 11130 jen kalb 6 5151096 That is an excellent good point. Quality of ingredients is always a big factor. There is nothing worse then getting a dish that is completely poorly executed. I'm sorry that happened. But I have worked in a number of restaurants in the States, and I don't necessarily agree with the consistency argument. Often in a bigger restaurant I find since so many plates are going out it is harder to have consistent quality control. While in a smaller setting the head chef can personally look over every dish to make sure that they are to his/her specifications. I guess that this just boils down to issues regarding the management in the kitchen. What is a good food book that you would recommend that is a good guide for more middle of the road restaurants in Rome? Mon Nov 02 21:15:34 -0800 2009 5150785 1111303 sutcher 7 5151329 For the most part the the classic trattorias in rome are quite small and manageable by a chef, in comparison with our restaurants in the US. Meals tend to be more leisurely, and there is no expectation (except perhaps in some very humble restaurants where people eat quickly) that tables will be turned. which I think makes it more possible for more attention to be paid. I think the classic size is arount 12 tables, tho successful places seem to grow somewhat from that. Regarding books, I think Downie's book is the best Ive seen, but be aware that it focusses narrowly on the "Terroir" restaurants and local food sources, and does not more than glancingly cover new style trattorias and restaurants or italian regional, "international" or foreign restaurants. If you want to get to know the classic Roman cuisine, it is certainly the most thorough Englih book out there. of the other english language guides, TimeOut seems to do a decent job of staying current. There seem to be a number of new books out in Italian on trattorias in Rome, in addition to Slowfood, Gambero Rosso, etc. If you are going to be there for a while some of these could be useful. Maybe Maureen can comment on whether any of these are high quality. Tue Nov 03 03:59:45 -0800 2009 5151096 11130 jen kalb 5 5151112 Although your general impression of Italian Food as "simple fresh home cooking" have some truth. What makes simple fresh home cooking shine is the superior ingredients and the deft touch of a fine cook. Excellent meat, poultry, seafood, produce, olive oil, cheeses, even basic things such as dried pasta and canned tomatoes come with a cost, so is the time needed for a fine cook to make these ingredients shine. A hole in a wall place may have just the minimum of cooks doing all the work which can lead to shortcuts, food made too far ahead, sloppy execution, etc. The example jen kalb and her coda illustrates both: sloppy cooking for not braising the oxtail enough or the oxtail is from a very old cow that no amount of braising will ever make the meat fall off the bone. Add to that the skimpy portion. Another example is the simple Bucatini all'Amatriciana. It has very few simple ingredients but is the guanciale lean enough and not too salty, the tomatoes San Marzano, the bucatini Martelli rather than Barilla; boil to order or has it been pre-part way to save time and stove space; did the cook saute the onions enough, adding just the right amount of peperoncino. An excellent bucatini all'Amatriciana must have all of the above. From my experience, great simple fresh food must start the best ingredients and the cook must have a deft touch and a fine palate. These two components are rarely found in hole-in the wall places but it doesn't mean that one cannot find good value in them. It is seldom excellent. There is a romantic notion that mom and pop places are opened because of their love of good food but for most, it is a lively hood. Mon Nov 02 21:27:58 -0800 2009 5150693 10756 PBSF 1 5148405 I love Trattoria della Stampa, a very un-assuming spot right near the Trevi Fountain (but really closer to via del Tritone). There is no outside seating, so you might even miss it. The tiny place is run by a mom, dad and daughter...been the in the family for years (as can be seen by all the old photos on the walls.) There is a token printed menu out front but it's useless, as they pretty much make what they buy that day. Just sit down and let them tell you what there is. Not fancy, but good, fresh and very Roman food. Mon Nov 02 04:45:42 -0800 2009 5148282 1120200 ebernard 2 5149168 Thanks ebernard, this is exactly the kind of restaurant I am looking for. It sounds great. Mon Nov 02 09:39:50 -0800 2009 5148405 1111303 sutcher 3 5151406 You are very welcome. But I will say I agree with the other posters that this is not where you will find the best of Roman food or Italian food. However, it's good, and the ambiance is cozy and after having a long talk with the owners once, it did give me the distinct impression that they are one of those dying breeds of small family-owned trattorias that really do care about the food. Tue Nov 03 05:14:29 -0800 2009 5149168 1120200 ebernard 1 5151243 Essentially, you are looking for a Holy Grail. Jen and PBSF have given you good advice. I would add: you cannot extrapolate what you know about US restaurants, much less a lively, modern place like Portland, to Rome. The average Roman hole in the wall is not very good. I'm not saying there aren't any good ones, and there are quite a few pretty good ones, but as a rule they tend to be lazy and cut corners. They were conceived as a substitute for cooking at home, in the days when it was cheaper to eat out, but today if I make spaghetti all'amatriciana at home, I use fabulous ingredients and the dish is amazing. In a hole in the wall, it's just ordinary, and the owner doesn’t care because his regular customers are used to it and keep coming back, probably because it's cheap. There is a book, in Italian, called "Il Gambero Rozzo" (a play on Gambero Rosso, the principal Italian guide; rozzo means sort of down and dirty) and the Gambero Rosso publishes a guide to cheaper restaurants throughout Italy, again in Italian. In any case, there are lots of amusing old places to go in Rome, but please don't imagine that their cooking is the best the Romans can do. Tue Nov 03 00:03:53 -0800 2009 5148282 83777 mbfant 1 5157316 We loved 'Da Lucia' in Trastevere (Vicolo del Mattonato 2) and an operation run out of someone's kitchen called 'I Due Ciccioni' (two fat guys), also in Trastevere either on Vicolo della Frusta or Vicolo del Cedro). It might not be open in colder weather because I don't think there was a dining room; we ate in the alley. Of the two, the food at the real restaurant was of a higher quality, but the experience at the second was just cool. Also, we had fantastic Roman pizza (aka thin crust) near Piazza Navona on Via del Governo Vecchio called 'Il Baffetto' (little moustache). Don't let the line daunt you, because as the the Italians say, "Vale la pena." It's well worth it, especially in a city where there's a very good chance that you won't eat well. I also like the 'Tavola Calda' (hot table or the Italian version of fast food). They usually offer all sorts of premade hot dishes and you order by the plate. Some charge you a cover (in lieu of a tip), so look for a fair price on the menu before you sit down (3 euro/person, tops). A volte, ti pelano - sometimes, they skin you! On that note, you don't have to leave tips in restaurants if they charge a coperto. 'Il forno' in the Campo dei Fiori is a very good bakery. It's pretty famous, for a reason. You can get slices of crispy pizza to go (portar via). For non-Italian food, we really enjoyed a Korean restaurant called I-Gio (via Roma Libera, 24, Trastevere). I couldn't believe how many plates of pickled items came with our main dish. The menu is divided into types of entrees by page, with a photo of all the sides that accompany that category. For me, this was a joy because I've been living in Italy for four years and I don't get much of a chance to eat ethnic food (other than Italian, of course). Thu Nov 05 01:54:14 -0800 2009 5148282 223247 lawmanx 2 5157363 Apologies for the digression. The first paragraph is the only part relevant to your question. The rest of the places are suggestions for cheap, good eats. Thu Nov 05 03:51:48 -0800 2009 5157316 223247 lawmanx 1 5161056 We happened upon Trattoria da Tito on via Venezia, 21 off of via Nazionale. It is a tiny place that opens at 7pm. On the night we were there, there was one chef and one waiter for a full house of locals and tourists. The chef actually hand delivered some of his dishes (along with a great smile on his face). There were a few tables outside, but we opted to eat inside. We had a litre of red wine, bread, water (no gas), one tortellini soup, one small ensalata, and 2 orders of agnolotti ragu followed by two limoncellos for 40 euros. Surprisingly, this meal ended up being one of the most enjoyable ones we had on our 10-day trip to Florence, Greve, Bologna and Rome. Fri Nov 06 09:46:04 -0800 2009 5148282 12061 HungryChris