663442 Thu Oct 29 22:45:41 -0700 2009 125 33 Food Media and News 0 5142107 Interesting list ... http://boss.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/29/one-hundred-things-restaurant-staffers-should-never-do-part-one/ Thu Oct 29 22:45:41 -0700 2009 11583 ipsedixit 1 5142452 You beat me to it. I thought a lot of it was common sense, but it always bear repeating. I thought some of the admonition were repeated. Fri Oct 30 06:29:30 -0700 2009 5142107 11826 Phaedrus 1 5142505 I thought some of it was just picky or silly. I mean, obviously you want to avoid running into things but sometimes it happens. (33. Do not bang into chairs or tables when passing by. ) And as far as not giving your name, some restaurant management requires that you give your name. Fri Oct 30 06:57:58 -0700 2009 5142107 19518 rockandroller1 2 5142509 At my favorite restaurant (which is a fairly upscale place) the waitstaff always gives their names and they do a good job of establishing a good rapport with the customers. My husband and I feel like we have made a new friend. That translates into a very good tip too. Fri Oct 30 07:00:13 -0700 2009 5142505 116495 Avalondaughter 3 5143953 I do not like the frequent, "Hi, I'm Babette. I will be your waitress"... It's too familiar. I remember a friend who would always quip, "I'm Bob, and I will be your customer!". I like it when they are ready to leave the table to say, "I f you need anything my name is X". Fri Oct 30 15:32:43 -0700 2009 5142509 137946 Scargod 4 5144243 Hmm, I really do get what you're saying, but.... :) I think it's like if I go to see a new doctor and she walks into the room and says "Hi, I'm Babette Scargod." I think it's more HOW they do it. I don't WANT to feel like I've made a new friend. So, yes, I see your point. Fri Oct 30 18:15:57 -0700 2009 5143953 131001 c oliver 4 5144340 I'm with you--I like when servers state their name in a way that feels genuine, not scripted. "If you need anything, my name is X, " seems more "real" than the phony, "Hi, my name is ____" (what is this, an Eminem video?)! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmdRauWVbwg This one is also funny! <<32. Never touch a customer. No excuses. Do not do it. Do not brush them, move them, wipe them or dust them.>> The idea of someone WIPING a customer just makes me laugh. I'm sorry. Maybe someday I'll grow up, but apparently, not today. LOL! Fri Oct 30 19:23:12 -0700 2009 5143953 249664 kattyeyes 5 5144379 "This one is also funny! <<32. Never touch a customer. No excuses. Do not do it. Do not brush them, move them, wipe them or dust them.>>" LOL. The wiping thing is hilarious. But let me tell you, some servers need to be told how to behave in detail.. A couple of years ago I was at a birthday celebration at a fondue restaurant with a group of women friends. It was a lot of fun, but our server was annoying in more ways than one. Totally phony with his scripted greeting, evey sentence beginning with "Lay-deez", but the worst was when he actually sat down in our booth next to the birthday girl and put his arm around her and started squeezing her. arm repeatedly- I kid you not. It was awkward to say the least. Fortunately, we all had had a lot to drink, so we laughed it off. Our impression was that he was doing it thinking he would get a better tip. What a turn-off. That particular restaurant trains their servers to do a lot of up-selling (which I'm prepared for on the rare occasions that I dine there),, but the shameless and touchy-feely phony shmoozing was out of control. And to me, the patronizing attituude of the male waiter towards us was totally uncalled for. Fri Oct 30 19:43:37 -0700 2009 5144340 255446 Gigi007 6 5144391 Bet you wish you could send that particular waiter these first 50 things--UGH! Awkward = understatement, I'm sure. ;) Fri Oct 30 19:49:26 -0700 2009 5144379 249664 kattyeyes 7 5144409 LOL. Thinking back, I don't know what was worse--"Lay-deez", the over familiarity, or the touching and squeezing of my friend. Major UGH! What a creep! Fri Oct 30 20:01:06 -0700 2009 5144391 255446 Gigi007 8 5166525 i guess he thought he was a "lay-deez man"! http://www.cartelia.net/fotos/l/ladiesman.jpg Mon Nov 09 05:09:02 -0800 2009 5144409 105717 alkapal 6 5144422 Is it really necessary to teach people to deal with those situations? Let's see; one reaction could be, "Sorry, kiddo, you're kinda invading my personal space." That would be my NICE response. Fri Oct 30 20:06:27 -0700 2009 5144379 131001 c oliver 7 5144426 I guess you had to be there to experience the whole thing. It wasn't just the server sitting down next to and squeezing my friend. It was the overall approach and everything I described above. Fri Oct 30 20:09:22 -0700 2009 5144422 255446 Gigi007 8 5144434 So why not deal with the "whole thing"? I more and more feel that if one isn't part of the solution, then one is part of the problem. Fri Oct 30 20:15:56 -0700 2009 5144426 131001 c oliver 9 5144452 As I said in my post, it was a birthday celebration. We were having a good time. Sometimes, it's not worth making a to-do about something. We were feeling pretty good after a couple of bottles of champagne and cocktails. And in the context of this discussion, I don't feel we were part of the problem, especially if the server regularly used the approach I described. Good night all. Fri Oct 30 20:29:51 -0700 2009 5144434 255446 Gigi007 9 5144708 I think sometimes one just doesn't want to make it into a big thing (because, as icky as it is, in the long run it really isn't a big thing). Yes, in an ideal world we'd all feel totally comfortable asking the person to stop and not feeling like we were adding down feelings to the party, but in reality that isn't always going to be the way things work. Sat Oct 31 05:18:42 -0700 2009 5144434 56762 LulusMom 4 5147167 Hee! I do that. "Hi, I'm Ima! I'll be your customer!" Then, we laugh and get on with the business at hand; i.e., me putting food in my mouth. Sun Nov 01 12:31:20 -0800 2009 5143953 88544 Ima Wurdibitsch 3 5144638 Really? Because I don't tip my friends when I go to their place for dinner. Sat Oct 31 01:32:15 -0700 2009 5142509 10159 Ruth Lafler 1 5142708 I wonder what single act could simultaneously break the most rules. e.g. waiter says "good effin choice, dude" breaks three at once Fri Oct 30 08:07:18 -0700 2009 5142107 242971 maple99 2 5142729 I'll bring the beers, this sounds like a great drinking game. Fri Oct 30 08:13:20 -0700 2009 5142708 11826 Phaedrus 2 5142880 add "and what are you dong after dinner?" for 4. Fri Oct 30 09:01:41 -0700 2009 5142708 13709 buttertart 2 5144733 Josh comes to the couple's table, stumbles over the woman's purse and jostles the table... He smells like he just had a few tokes of skunk-weed. Hey, dude and dudettes, I'm Josh and I'll be your worst nightmare! Juuussst kidding! Babe you look ubber delicious. Could you do me a tiny flavor and move that luggage over so I won't trip over it next time? Are you taking a trip or fixing to have a sleep-over? You don't want tap water do you? No sireee you don't! How about a cold and refreshing bottle of Perrier or San Pellegrino? A white wine? A bubbly one? There's bubbly ones? I don't know. Perhaps somebody else in the back drinks that stuff. I'm a Coor's Lite man, myself. Never got the hang of wine. I'll see if I can round up somebody for you on that item. Can I up-sell you to one of our specials that I will now rattle off? He spits them out in one breath like they were burning his mouth. May I suggest the Brer Rabbit Flambeau? I tell all the women to get it. It's my all-time fav! At the price, which would be gauche for me to mention, you will be making one hell of a frickin' choice and you'll impress everyone in the room when it comes out on fire. Way cool, babe; excellent choice! How's it prepared? I don't know, but don't you worry your sweet, pretty, little head. You will love it. No, cutie-pie, I can't substitute baby greens with pinto beans. I could however sub for this dork you are with. Just kidding...just kidding..... (big grin) Dude! (nudging the guy) Where did you pick up this hot babe? (Wink, wink at her.) She knows how to order! What do you want? You're going to outdo her aren't you? Oh gosh, look at that water glass! Let me wipe that off with my apron. How am I doin' so far guys and gals? (interrupting) Remember my name is Josh. I aim to please so a tip I'll sees... and I ain't a-joshin'! I will be right back with some special goodies just for you. What was that wine you wanted, once again cutie-pie? I see the table's a rockin. Well, have fun with that. I won't come a-nockin' if the table is a-rockin! (ha-ha, wink-wink, nudge-nudge) Sat Oct 31 05:53:26 -0700 2009 5142708 137946 Scargod 3 5144755 I think Josh broke 37 rules. And somehow we all feel like we have met this guy. Sat Oct 31 06:25:23 -0700 2009 5144733 57170 Veggo 4 5144845 Yeah, at Balabosta in Berkeley, CA in 1976. Almost not an exaggeration. Sat Oct 31 07:26:24 -0700 2009 5144755 13709 buttertart 3 5144804 You forgot when he head butted the bottle of wine to break it and then give them the lable attached to the broken glass. Awesome dude-a-roo. Sat Oct 31 06:59:35 -0700 2009 5144733 11290 jfood 4 5144824 You're right, that would have been mega-awesome!! I was trying to work within the premise of "one encounter" as alluded to by maple99. Sat Oct 31 07:15:50 -0700 2009 5144804 137946 Scargod 5 5144844 We'll have more fun when the 51-100 list is issued. Presumably it will include singing & farting waiters. Sat Oct 31 07:26:23 -0700 2009 5144824 57170 Veggo 6 5144962 You may or may not have missed the one about the chef who farted in the customer's face (deleted thread) because the customer complained about the meal. As much as this is funny, it's not funny that this kind of crap happens in real life to the degree someone felt the need to write a list at an attempt to ensure it didn't happen at his restaurant. Toodle-oo. Or should that be toot-a-loo...dear god! Sat Oct 31 08:38:34 -0700 2009 5144844 249664 kattyeyes 7 5144968 Good point. But Bob always says "Signs do not apply to illiterates." We were driving home yesterday, along a very narrow, two lane road, no shoulder on either side (mountain on one side, cliff on the other) and there was a sign "NO PARKING." Duh. Sat Oct 31 08:44:21 -0700 2009 5144962 131001 c oliver 3 5145057 HI-larious, Scargod. Yeah, I've met this guy. The overly chatty kind who looks like he just rolled out of bed, tells lame jokes, and WINKS (ugh). Winking is particularly annoying (I guess it reminds me of Sarah Palin... :)). Sat Oct 31 09:29:03 -0700 2009 5144733 255446 Gigi007 3 5145332 Like others here, I've actually met "Josh" -- it was in Duluth, Minnesota (no offense, Duluth). Scargod, you are a funny, funny guy -- and ever so spot-on! Sat Oct 31 12:21:15 -0700 2009 5144733 270888 shaogo 3 5147724 nicely done!! I call for a story that breaks all 100 when Part 2 comes out! Sun Nov 01 16:40:04 -0800 2009 5144733 242971 maple99 1 5142776 I love #23, giving the guest the wine bottle label -- is that a common practice? I don't know much about wine at all, and I have trouble remembering wines that I've enjoyed in restaurants, always mean to write them down and then forget, so I'd really appreciate this. I often ask servers what they like on the menu, and I don't think I mind having them mention their favorites, if it doesn't seem like upselling -- is that gauche of me? Fri Oct 30 08:26:38 -0700 2009 5142107 112104 mselectra 2 5142859 My eyes lit on #23 too, mostly because in decades of dining out it's never once happened to me, even if I praise the wine mightily. The only way I get the label is if they give me the part-empty bottle to take home in the doggie bag. Fri Oct 30 08:53:24 -0700 2009 5142776 10811 Das Ubergeek 3 5143394 My FiL has saved a bunch of labels from special dinners he's had out. I had never seen such a thing before, but obviously if you ask them to do it, there is a way. And if the customer asks, I figure it isn't a huge mistake on the waitstaff's part. Fri Oct 30 11:32:48 -0700 2009 5142859 56762 LulusMom 3 5143470 That's because it's a huge pain in the ass. Fri Oct 30 12:01:20 -0700 2009 5142859 92744 invinotheresverde 4 5143727 So why not just rinse the bottle out and hand over the bottle? Fri Oct 30 13:45:23 -0700 2009 5143470 10811 Das Ubergeek 5 5143774 Every state/county has differing alcohol laws. Some places will let you leave with the bottle and some won't. I always put the information into my phone. Fri Oct 30 14:01:01 -0700 2009 5143727 92744 invinotheresverde 4 5143897 It does seem like the whole effort of steaming off the label would be a lot of work (and of a different quality of effort than the other rules on the list) -- that's one reason I wondered if this was a common practice in higher end places (where I don't usually go). But would be an awfully nice gesture and memento of the meal. Interesting that almost no one has experienced this, wonder where the rules's author came up with the idea. I must get in the habit of putting in my phone, as well. Fri Oct 30 14:59:52 -0700 2009 5143470 112104 mselectra 5 5143951 If it's not busy, it's no big deal, but on a Saturday night (when you're already in the weeds), you simply don't have the time. Fri Oct 30 15:31:46 -0700 2009 5143897 92744 invinotheresverde 6 5145344 I just recently saw a pressure-sensitive plastic that's being offered to restaurants in Restaurant Hospitality magazine. Apparently, one places this sticky tape on the label, pulls, and the label surface comes off -- intact -- with the tape and can be stuck to a piece of bond paper and given to the customer. Now, we'll have to see how many high-end places embrace this technology. I don't collect wine labels; I just take notes. It just seems to me that there were more restaurants steaming labels for customers years ago than there are now. I recall eating in a few fine dining restaurants in New York and Connecticut where they'd present the diner with the label for any bottle that cost more than, say, $75. Now, again, I'd like to see how long the author of the list insists that his servers steam labels, even on Saturday nights. At many places it's just not practical, unless there's a kitchen staffer the servers can hand the bottles to for de-labeling. Sat Oct 31 12:27:39 -0700 2009 5143951 270888 shaogo 7 5145361 that's a really old-school and east-coast centric customer service thing. not that it isn't a nice thing to do if there is nothing better to do. . . but i just don't think this type of thing is common or expected anymore, most places. it went out with the little matchboxes with the customer's name printed on them (taken from the res book each evening). i think many customers nowadays would say they don't want to schlep something like that around, that they had all the info in their blackberry, etc. Sat Oct 31 12:42:09 -0700 2009 5145344 46030 soupkitten 8 5145523 The more I think about it, the more it *does* seem that the wine-label-retrieval thing is as dated as restaurants that use lacquered wine labels as "wallpaper" in their restrooms or wine cellar. That being said, what's wrong with a few old-school frills? Sat Oct 31 14:07:58 -0700 2009 5145361 270888 shaogo 9 5145693 i do like the schmaltzy old-school frills, too. there is a steakhouse in town that does the matchbox thing and i love it! Sat Oct 31 15:50:16 -0700 2009 5145523 46030 soupkitten 7 5145454 Oh, come now. Surely you've heard of family businesses. This is just the kind of thing a kid in the back of the restaurant could learn to do on the weekend. ;) And I say this is as a (former) kid of two generations' worth of familly businesses--not hinting at any sort of impropriety. Most other kids that grew up that way would say the same--and it was fun most of the time. Not that I steamed wine bottle labels...I washed dishes, tended bar, rang up purchases. It builds character. :) Sat Oct 31 13:35:16 -0700 2009 5145344 249664 kattyeyes 7 5145581 I like this idea. I might use it at home. I can't tell you the times I've gone into the liquor store and said, "It's from Spain and it has an orange label with a splash of purple in the middle. It's a hearty red. Doh! I don't see it!" Then again, I could just take a quick picture with my handy-dandy pocket camera and take that to the store. Sat Oct 31 14:40:26 -0700 2009 5145344 137946 Scargod 8 5145641 Retro will return someday. I have a friend whose wet bar nook is lacquered with wine labels, as shaogo phrased it, and it's interesting. I never drank so much or so well, but if I had known in my early years how many speeding tickets I was destined to accumulate, probably about 40, I would have saved them to at least lacquer a vanity. Lexington Virginia is the Chateau Margeaux of speeding tickets, very pricey. But Booneville Missouri is the D' Yquem. Sat Oct 31 15:17:20 -0700 2009 5145581 57170 Veggo 3 5146112 Babbo did this for our table. Sat Oct 31 21:12:55 -0700 2009 5142859 18368 youngho 4 5147524 And both Daniel and Eleven Madison Park did it for us (unrequested, might I add) recently. Sun Nov 01 15:05:46 -0800 2009 5146112 198245 a213b 5 5147914 Huh, because about a year ago I ate at EMP and they did not. Perhaps I wasn't effusive enough. (I also don't think I care too much, because DAMN the food was amazing, but that's a topic for the Manhattan board.) I've taken empties home here in California, but never just the label. Sun Nov 01 18:12:45 -0800 2009 5147524 10811 Das Ubergeek 5 5150851 Yes, sorry, I didn't mention that Babbo did it unrequested. It's really a nice touch. Mon Nov 02 18:32:01 -0800 2009 5147524 18368 youngho 2 5143789 jfood saw #23 and thought it was a great idea. jfood has never seen that before but nothing like good customer service Fri Oct 30 14:09:20 -0700 2009 5142776 11290 jfood 1 5142901 Aren't some of the actions listed, such as seating incomplete parties, or food substitutions, among others, up to discretion of the Owners and Management, and often decided in advance? I'm not attempting to argue that the list isn't (overall) correct, just that the restaurant staff may not have any control over some of Mr. Bushel's items. Fri Oct 30 09:06:10 -0700 2009 5142107 259475 blackoak 2 5143018 Ignore my previous post. I just reread the list - I originally skipped over the intro - and didn't realize that the list is for the restaurant that Mr. Bushel is opening, so he can empower his staff to do whatever he thinks is important. Fri Oct 30 09:48:03 -0700 2009 5142901 259475 blackoak 1 5142975 I want to know my servers name, my father always asks if they don't say it. If he likes the place and likes the server, he will ask if they are working the night he wants to make a reservation and then request to be seated in their section. Fri Oct 30 09:36:07 -0700 2009 5142107 154901 roro1831 2 5143791 usually on the check and you can a;ways ask on the way out as jfood has done on numerous occassions. that way you give major kudos that night plus set the tone for the next visit. Fri Oct 30 14:10:30 -0700 2009 5142975 11290 jfood 1 5143552 The author of this list is merely setting forth a number of things that he knows diners want to hear. I wonder if he'll stick to the "don't hustle the lobster" after he's thrown a few dozen in the garbage can, however. Common sense dictates more than one of these items. But they bear repeating because, in my experience in the business, one occasionally runs across a server who's friendly, efficient, on-time -- but has little common sense. Once instructed, however, servers like this do remember. This is a practical list nonetheless and can be customized to fit the needs of each setting. I agree with the posters above who like knowing their server's name. Those who don't need to know can listen nonetheless and then forget it immediately. Fri Oct 30 12:37:46 -0700 2009 5142107 270888 shaogo 1 5143798 Help jfood on #39. He hears all the time, "and what would the lady like?" for an order. What is the consensus from the board. #33 drives jfood crazy. He cannot tell you how many runners have bumped him in his life. At times he will tell the server to tell the runners, other time he will make it impossible for the bump and run. Fri Oct 30 14:13:42 -0700 2009 5142107 11290 jfood 2 5143834 One of my (female) colleagues responds to that first one with "The LADY would like you to drag your mind out of the 19th century and address her directly, thank you very much." Fri Oct 30 14:32:57 -0700 2009 5143798 10811 Das Ubergeek 3 5143854 Whoa...jfood thought the following occurred, in no particular order. Looking at male "what would the gentleman like" then to female, "and what would the lady like." If it is the server directing the question to the male to speak for the lady then jfood agrees. Now, here is a different scenario because mrs jfood usually tells jfood to pick something for her, then when the server approaches jfood, "My wife will have the triple cut prime rib, and i will have the steamed chicken." Fri Oct 30 14:41:33 -0700 2009 5143834 11290 jfood 4 5143865 Exactly. If the server is addressing the "lady" directly, is that so bad? Because the male equivalent would be ... "What would you like, sir?" What would the female equivalent be ... "What would you like, __?" Would it be "ma'am"? To me that would almost be worse ... Fri Oct 30 14:46:30 -0700 2009 5143854 11583 ipsedixit 5 5143875 jfood thinks what you like ma'am is perfectly acceptable. Fri Oct 30 14:49:54 -0700 2009 5143865 11290 jfood 6 5143941 Of course it is--you're a guy! I remember I was in the grocery store the first time anyone called me "ma'am" and not "miss". Welcome to old-ladyhood. Fri Oct 30 15:26:15 -0700 2009 5143875 189144 dmjordan 7 5143981 If the server can't ask the lady or say ma'am, he is trapped. What is he to do? Inquire "what does the hot babe you are with want for dinner?" Fri Oct 30 15:45:00 -0700 2009 5143941 57170 Veggo 8 5144023 dudette probably does not work either Fri Oct 30 16:04:11 -0700 2009 5143981 11290 jfood 9 5144070 "you guys" is not the correct plural when one of us is obviously female yet I hear it all the time. Fri Oct 30 16:33:10 -0700 2009 5144023 15743 Sherri 8 5144080 Good point, mon ami, but as dmjordan relates, if you're a woman, when people start calling you "ma'am" when you've always been "miss", it's tough to hear. So LOL, in a way, "hot babe" is better than ma'am!. I myself don't mind being addressed directly in second person as "you". As an aside, when I'm seated next to a couple who's fighting and the guy is being a jerk, I would like the server to address hiim as "the tool' or "db". Fri Oct 30 16:36:14 -0700 2009 5143981 255446 Gigi007 9 5144268 Slow learner I am. When in Mexico, senorita is safer than senora. Fri Oct 30 18:31:54 -0700 2009 5144080 57170 Veggo 10 5144289 Yes, to most Mexicans I'm still a senorita.. :) Fri Oct 30 18:45:38 -0700 2009 5144268 255446 Gigi007 10 5144311 In Rio, I do the opposite. Fri Oct 30 18:57:47 -0700 2009 5144268 131001 c oliver 9 5166533 "ma'am" is not offensive in the south. if you're a woman, any woman older than you is addressed "ma'am," and if you're a man, ALL women are addressed "ma'am.'" that is the courtesy and custom. Mon Nov 09 05:17:02 -0800 2009 5144080 105717 alkapal 10 5166622 People with southern accents, or dressed military, can call me Ma'am any time. It's when youngsters around here do it that it freaks me out, I feel like they think I'm an alien being. It's just not right. Mon Nov 09 06:20:47 -0800 2009 5166533 11097 coll 10 5166841 Reminds me of a scene in Cormac McCarthy's Cities of the Plain. The scene takes place somewhere around the El Paso - Alamogordo region in 1952: They ate at a long table in the kitchen, passing bowls of hominy and okra and a great platter of fried steaks and biscuits. This is awful good, mam, Billy said. Elton's wife looked at him. You wouldn't mind not callin me mam would you? No mam. It makes me feel like a old woman. Yes mam. He cant help hisself, Troy said. That's all right, the woman said. You never let me off that easy. Bein let off easy was never somethin you needed more of, the woman said. I'll try not to say it, Billy said. There was a seven year old girl at the table and she watched them with wide eyes. They ate. After a while she said: What's wrong with it? What's wrong with what? Sayin mam. Elton looked up. There aint nothin wrong with it, honey. Your mama's just one of them modern kinds of women. What's a modern kind of woman? Eat your supper, the woman said. If your daddy had his way we wouldn't even have the wheel yet. Mon Nov 09 07:52:46 -0800 2009 5166533 36408 danieljdwyer 11 5167145 Love that Daniel. Thanks for sharing. http://www.servernotservant.com/ Mon Nov 09 09:29:15 -0800 2009 5166841 1120504 PJ SNS 10 5167156 I didn't say that being called "ma'am" is offensive. I can't speak for anyone else, but when I was called ma'am for the first time, I felt old. It actually doesn't happen to me all that frequently. It certainly doesn't happen in restaurants, but I do get that at stores like the Gap or Banana Republic where staff is mostly high school/college age. Mon Nov 09 09:34:17 -0800 2009 5166533 255446 Gigi007 11 5167201 I'm 51, and IIRC, I was called "ma'am" when I was in my mid or late 30s. A definite wince on my part. I had "crossed over" to ma'am status. Nowadays, either I'm not hearing it, or it just doesn't phase me anymore so I'm not even recognizing that it's been said to me. And having used the word "nowadays", which derives from the 14th century, I guess I am old. LOL! Mon Nov 09 09:49:01 -0800 2009 5167156 10532 LindaWhit 12 5167242 Exact same age for me, sometime in my 30s. How the heck did I feel old then? Mon Nov 09 09:59:33 -0800 2009 5167201 11097 coll 13 5167313 Same here..."Ah, but I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now." Bob Dylan. Mon Nov 09 10:20:22 -0800 2009 5167242 13709 buttertart 14 5167384 I just love that Dylan line. So true in so many ways. Mon Nov 09 10:40:24 -0800 2009 5167313 56762 LulusMom 15 5167393 Indeed. My hero. And he was well under 30 when he wrote it! Mon Nov 09 10:43:56 -0800 2009 5167384 13709 buttertart 12 5167756 That's exactly what I was talking about. I probably did make a face the first time someone called me "ma'am". But like I said, I don't experience it all that much in daily life--more from teenagers than anyone else, so I guess it's no big deal And most of the people I work with aren't Americans, so no one addresses me as "ma'am" in business situations. I really can't recall hearing it in restaurants either, but it does seem to be more frequent when I'm traveling in southern states. Mon Nov 09 12:37:47 -0800 2009 5167201 255446 Gigi007 8 5144212 Most frequently, I encounter the following, which works very well without any of the troublesome questions regarding pronouns or titles: Server approaches table, inquires whether the party is ready to order. At this point, the eyes of all in the party are generally on the server; server looks at one person, makes eye contact and an inquiring expression (I do notice it's near universal for servers to begin with the, or one of the if plural, women). Order taken, server moves on in the same fashion around the table. Fri Oct 30 17:52:55 -0700 2009 5143981 10074 Caitlin McGrath 9 5144250 That's exactly what I thought also, CM. Fri Oct 30 18:20:30 -0700 2009 5144212 131001 c oliver 8 5145442 That would definitely get him a big tip. I guess, though, that he doesn't have to call me anything. Just look at me and ask what I would like. Sat Oct 31 13:28:52 -0700 2009 5143981 189144 dmjordan 7 5144715 I prefer miss too, but I'm not offended by ma'am. I figure it is better than a lot of other options ... Sat Oct 31 05:21:49 -0700 2009 5143941 56762 LulusMom 5 5144097 The first time I was called "ma'am," I was a 16-year-old cashier at Roy Rogers. Suffice it to say, I'm used to it now, and the word long ago lost whatever sting it may have once had. Fri Oct 30 16:43:02 -0700 2009 5143865 13722 small h 6 5144654 I also clearly remember the first time I was called Ma'am, by the pizza dude delivering my pie. Very depressing, I obsessed about it for days. When my manager leaves a message for everyone in the dept, he calls us "youse guys"...and we're half women. Doesn't bother me for some reason, it's just the way he is. Sat Oct 31 03:00:58 -0700 2009 5144097 11097 coll 7 5144658 My similar experience was when I was given a 10% senior discount at Carls Jr. It cut like a knife. I would rather have paid the 27 cents. Sat Oct 31 03:26:15 -0700 2009 5144654 57170 Veggo 5 5144639 You're right, there is no perfect way to address a woman whose name you don't know. I got the impression, though, that when he said "Don't call her lady" that he meant don't address her directly as "Lady." Lady is not my name, by I am *a* lady, so a reference to "the lady" is okay with me. Sat Oct 31 01:39:05 -0700 2009 5143865 10159 Ruth Lafler 5 5147918 What's wrong with "madam"? If you're going to be so stuffy as to say "...and what would the lady like?" you might as well sound like you're stuck in a 1950's Continental restaurant in London. Sun Nov 01 18:15:58 -0800 2009 5143865 10811 Das Ubergeek 1 5144147 I agree with most of the list. Buschel does sound a bit rigid. I think his list would be a little different if he had some restaurant experience under his belt. In fact, I believe that all diners would be better customers if they had a little service experience. Until you've walked a mile in my shoes... #3- Never refuse to seat 3 guests because a fourth has not yet arrived. (His prerogative, but he'll learn after the masses run roughshod.) #7- No jokes? (Come on.) #42- Do not compliment a guest's attire or hairdo or makeup. You are insulting someone else. (Ridiculous) I agree with all of the posters who like to know who's serving them. I always quietly ask a server their name. It personalizes an intimate, human-to-human transaction, and it allows me to respectfully address the server when I need to talk with them. I don't use it to curry favor, or to yell their name across the bar or diningroom. I'm working on a list of 100 things that restaurant customers should never say or do. I wonder if the NYT will post it... http://www.servernotservant.com/ Fri Oct 30 17:15:07 -0700 2009 5142107 1120504 PJ SNS 2 5144640 I don't necessarily want to be "intimate" with my server. In fact, one function of etiquette is to keep a potentially intimate situation from becoming so by creating formal boundaries. I don't like it when servers introduce themselves. However, as someone said above, I think it's a good idea to wrap up with "If you need anything my name is X". That makes it clear that the name is offered because the waiter wants to improve your service rather than because the waiter wants to become your new best friend. Sat Oct 31 01:46:09 -0700 2009 5144147 10159 Ruth Lafler 3 5144731 Ruth- I hear you. I paused when I used 'intimate' in my post, but then proceeded to use it hoping that readers would get my intended meaning. The server-diner relationship is a personal one because it involves communication, interaction and hospitality. I'm with you on the boundaries, but I also believe diners need to be flexible and open to some spontaneity and fun. Sat Oct 31 05:51:37 -0700 2009 5144640 1120504 PJ SNS 4 5146742 I'm the customer, I don't "need" to be "open" to anything. Sometimes I want spontaneity and fun with the waiter, but usually I rely on my dinner companions to make my time enjoyable. A waiter who is trying to be funny or entertaining or even overly friendly is just annoying. Sun Nov 01 08:51:16 -0800 2009 5144731 10159 Ruth Lafler 5 5147928 I'll add to this from the point of view of business dinners. 90% of the time when I go out for a fancy-shmancy dinner it's a business dinner and we are discussing business. A good server should be aware of what's going on at the table and gauge his or her shtick from that. If people are clearly in a business discussion (or a sombre personal discussion) then cute little "let's lighten the atmosphere" antics are almost certain to be unwelcome. Sun Nov 01 18:19:23 -0800 2009 5146742 10811 Das Ubergeek 5 5156138 I agree that a server who is trying to be funny, entertaining or overly friendly can be annoying. Obviously a server needs to take his/her cues from each set of guests. I'm just saying that I believe that more people need to be open to the fact that dining out is a fluid, dynamic interaction, and that the world is not perfect. There are a lot of uptight people who are rigid, inflexible and unforgiving. Even in the most formal dining rooms a personal connection with a server can make an evening more enjoyable. http://www.servernotservant.com/ Wed Nov 04 14:05:19 -0800 2009 5146742 1120504 PJ SNS 1 5144497 dining out should be fun. i have a responsibility to show up on time and be polite. the house has a responsibility to be polite, answer questions/offer suggestions, take care of the basics and be prompt. that aside, it's up to the chef to impress. Fri Oct 30 21:06:46 -0700 2009 5142107 10627 steve h. 2 5144711 Agree wholeheartedly--and talking about dining out should be fun, too--in theory, at least. ;) Sat Oct 31 05:20:18 -0700 2009 5144497 249664 kattyeyes 1 5145182 There is a hilarious rebuttal on waiterrant.com. As snarky as it seems, he really does capture the behind the scenes attitude of what goes on in many restaurants. Sat Oct 31 10:44:07 -0700 2009 5142107 16906 pitterpatter 2 5145243 Do you have the complete link? I tried www.waiterrant.com and got a directory for restaurant listings and other misc. info. Sat Oct 31 11:19:53 -0700 2009 5145182 255446 Gigi007 3 5145295 waiterrant.net. very lame responses Sat Oct 31 11:58:29 -0700 2009 5145243 11290 jfood 4 5145382 Thanks. I agree with you. Stopped reading around #15 or #16. Not funny. Sat Oct 31 12:49:05 -0700 2009 5145295 255446 Gigi007 5 5145638 Lots of unpleasantly sexist comments too. I can't say I was amused. Sat Oct 31 15:14:32 -0700 2009 5145382 107671 queencru 4 5145503 That entire site could be replaced with one sentence: "I hate everything about being a waiter." Sat Oct 31 13:56:10 -0700 2009 5145295 13722 small h 5 5145674 I think at this point (having had blog lead to book, etc.), it's all about the shtick. Sat Oct 31 15:39:00 -0700 2009 5145503 10074 Caitlin McGrath 1 5145695 I want to add that SO was dining with her daughter at a so-so Italian place in New Haven and, in the middle of lunch, the waiter came over and started swirling her glass of wine! She said, "Are you adding air to it?" His reply: "I'm adding oxygen to it". What an asshole! I doubt that he would have done that if I was there... Sat Oct 31 15:51:21 -0700 2009 5142107 137946 Scargod 2 5145776 That's a new one! Wow. But why would your presence have changed his behavior? Would that have made the idiot immediately smarter??? Sat Oct 31 16:53:28 -0700 2009 5145695 131001 c oliver 3 5146272 I thought this might not need explanation, but I'm sorta glad you asked. One or two women dining alone are a target for men just as women are when they are alone on the street or elsewhere. Some men feel they can say anything, touch, rub and otherwise violate a woman's privacy however they want since there is not a man present to stand up for them. In this case there were two attractive women dining alone in a sparsely occupied restaurant. One was a young twenty-five year old. Both are petite. I think the gesture of handling someones drink after she had been drinking it was provocative; perhaps the next best thing to actually touching her. Then he had to correct her and say "I'm adding oxygen", rather than saying "yes". His actions were possibly akin to a familiar person picking on you, when they really want to jump you. His actions were too familiar. I would not even do that to SO's glass (nor correct her)! Sun Nov 01 02:01:15 -0800 2009 5145776 137946 Scargod 1 5146884 In the places where the servers can become as "casual" as the setting: "Can I get you guys anything else?". Holy Chowhound, if that gal I've been dining with for years is a "guy" I'm in freakin' trouble. OR... "Are you still working on that?". Four-leggers in a feed-lot "work" on that..but diners? Jeesh. Sun Nov 01 10:07:00 -0800 2009 5142107 1085943 noreservations 2 5146936 What you have said reminds me of really casual places or theme places where all bets are off; like where they cut your tie off, or you eat with your hands and (I think) are supposed to pat the wenches on the butt. How are waiters/waitresses supposed to act if you are dining in a strip club? Sun Nov 01 10:28:40 -0800 2009 5146884 137946 Scargod 1 5147753 I would add to #9: always, always give the price of each special. I don't mind asking but some people do. Something that sounds good for $12 might not sound that good for $20. Sun Nov 01 16:52:24 -0800 2009 5142107 131001 c oliver 2 5147892 In the day of home/office printers I don't even now why I have to play a memory game trying to remember the specials. A page of specials with prices included would cost pennies a sheet. I went to a place for brunch with about 8 "specials". I was impressed my server remembered them all but I'm pretty sure I didn't. Sun Nov 01 18:01:56 -0800 2009 5147753 10195 KTinNYC 3 5147908 Good point. And I'd be more apt to order if they were in printed form. I do see it at times but not often enough. Sun Nov 01 18:11:00 -0800 2009 5147892 131001 c oliver 1 5148477 Good list. It comes off as picky and obnoxious, but so am I so I love it. The only quibble I have is with this: "2. Do not make a singleton feel bad. Do not say, “Are you waiting for someone?” Ask for a reservation. Ask if he or she would like to sit at the bar." I eat out alone a lot and asking me if I'm alone doesn't make me feel bad but refusing to give me a good table just because people don't want to look at someone sitting alone does. So it should be: "2. Do not treat singletons differently than groups of diners. Offer them a table or a seat at the bar and let them choose." Mon Nov 02 05:50:47 -0800 2009 5142107 248284 taos 2 5148613 I agree completely. Just because I'm a single diner doesn't mean I always want to eat at the bar or should feel obligated to eat there. Mon Nov 02 06:57:33 -0800 2009 5148477 107671 queencru 1 5149215 This list sounds familiar, so much so that Buschel should credit his source, directly or not. Thanks to google, here is the original. The list of "129 Cardinal Sins" comes from Bernard Chakroun, maitre d' at Le Bernardin. This was published in Eric Ripert's Life on the Line, and then reprinted in the New York Magazine. http://images.nymag.com/images/2/daily/2008/11/20081113_cardinalsins.pdf Mon Nov 02 09:52:11 -0800 2009 5142107 10514 KTFoley 1 5149244 I'll add another: DO NOT address a group (2 or more) as "guys" ie: Hi "guys", are you "guys" ready for the check, can I get you "guys" anything else?..especially if there are women in the group. That is my biggest pet peeve when i dine out. I hate it, it makes me crazy enough to pull the manager aside. Oh and don't say we either; Are "we" finished, what are "we" having tonight? You are not a part of our dining group, don't act like you are just becuase you are serving us. Just be polite, offer us your name, and even joke around if appropriate, but don't come on too strong, we all know you're doing it for a better tip. Believe me it will backfire and you will just seem creepy. Mon Nov 02 09:58:41 -0800 2009 5142107 158403 jcattles 2 5149393 Perhaps if the "we" is me and a cute waitress, I wouldn't think her creepy. Perhaps she wants to join me and unconsciously says "we"? Naw, I thought not.... Mon Nov 02 10:50:09 -0800 2009 5149244 137946 Scargod 3 5149606 jfood had a colleague that always thought the waitress was coming onto him. Finally it was just he and jfood at a dinner (no other colleagues) and he looked at jfood and said, "wow i think she likes me." Jfood whacked him on the side of the head. "what was that for?" reponse, "you're a smart guy. Stop being so stupid. You're 20 years older than her, she is 5" taller than you and you will give her a bigger tip if she flirts. " sheesh, amazing sometimes. that is why reading a book at the table is a great companion when solo and tarvelling. Mon Nov 02 11:55:33 -0800 2009 5149393 11290 jfood 4 5149711 Sounds like your colleague was reading "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty". Mon Nov 02 12:28:17 -0800 2009 5149606 57170 Veggo 2 5149446 I agree with your points. I will add, however, that I have sympathy for young waiters and waitresses who use "guys" this way. It's not acceptable in a formal or service context, but it has become the normal, informal, genderless term people my age use to address a group. Back when I was teaching, when the administration would do formal observations of my lessons, I would always get in trouble for calling my class guys, as in, "Quiet down guys." There was always irony in this for me, since my female students frequently called each other "dude". It's one of those tough linguistic habits to break, but correct speech is part of the job when you work in the service or hospitality industry. Mon Nov 02 11:08:25 -0800 2009 5149244 36408 danieljdwyer 3 5149546 The genderless "dude" term of endearment at first surprised me years ago, but for those who will pay my social security it is now ubiquitous. Mon Nov 02 11:37:32 -0800 2009 5149446 57170 Veggo 4 5149681 It's funny how fast those terms change in meaning, and which ones various generations find offensive or at least odd. I see "lady" suggested pretty frequently as polite, but when it's tossed around in casual conversations between twenty-somethings, it often functions as a sarcastic term with the same connotations as "bitch" ("Some lady in the supermarket was holding up the line." "Listen, lady.") "Lady" was used as a derogatory term in the Victorian Era as well. Bill Bryson has done some fantastic work of cataloging shifts in the terminology used to refer to people. He considers "chick" to be one of the most divisive words in the language. He missed out on one of my favorite recent oddities though. The age group 5 to 10 years younger than mine (basically college aged kids) uses the word "man" pretty extensively as a genderless term ("Hey man." "Whatever, man.") This is clearly unsettling to many people, which is ironic given that "man" originally was a genderless word, with "waepman" (spear person) and "wifman" (weaving person) being the gender specific terms- talk about stereotyping terminology. Mon Nov 02 12:17:34 -0800 2009 5149546 36408 danieljdwyer 5 5149705 We allready miss my friend Bill Safire who stayed abreast of these warpspeed changes and On Language nuances. I don't know who will take his place. Mon Nov 02 12:25:57 -0800 2009 5149681 57170 Veggo 1 5168141 okay... some are right on, but really... Don't say a special is your favorite? why not? that is passion & enthusiasm. Don't bump into table or chairs? well, duh! but servers ARE human and sometimes it happens... Don't remove empty plates if others are eating... Believe me sometimes people WANT those plates gone. That is a personal preference. I worked as a server through UCLA and then for a while after i graduated... I think if EVERYBODY did it for a week, there would be a lot less nitpicking and a lot more understanding! Mon Nov 09 14:25:24 -0800 2009 5142107 1107508 trixie67 2 5168380 i know it's not correct etiquette, but i don't like an empty, used plate in front of me. if it's just mr. alka and me, i'll get them to remove the plate. otherwise, i follow the "rules." Mon Nov 09 15:42:05 -0800 2009 5168141 105717 alkapal