658516 Sat Oct 10 14:33:17 -0700 2009 54 30 Site Talk 0 5093807 I think this is a wonderful thread: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/289300#1565581 It is old, but relates to what is on my mind right now. I came to Chowhound in search of good food in an area new to me. I have enjoyed writing, sharing and expressing my opinions here. I have no issue calling myself a foodie OR Chowhound. I make maps with POI (points of interest), for places I want to eat at or that I have eaten at. I collect restaurants and foodstuff resources from Chowhound. I take pictures of food... The Chowhound credo is to search for deliciousness wherever it can be found and not eat something less than delicious. Are you really in search of deliciousness if you like McDonald's? I have been critical of "road food". I cannot handle a steady diet of fried foods. I love sausages and kraut. I love a pastrami on rye or a Reuben, but I restrain myself from eating them too often. Same for foie gras and lobster rolls soaked in butter. I really have nothing against talking about delicious food. I want a rare burger. This requirement and cheap buns really limits my burger intake. I like variety. I am for cheap food, but sorry, no mystery meat hot dogs! Your hot dog is my apple. You aren’t going to be interested in hearing about the apple I just ate. I love a good soft taco! Rice and beans? Hell yea! A bowl of soup or stew, or a sandwich with side salad suits me fine. It is hard to find much that's even comes close to healthy food that is "fast", cheap and good for you. At least it should be special and not spit out of a drive-thru! I realize that “healthy” is not mentioned in the manifesto, but “discerning” and “passionate” is. I do not eat just to assuage hunger. Wolfing down my food and suffering from food amnesia is not my bag. Should we even bring up buffets? Even Leff, our founder and mentor has reconsidered how much and what he eats. OTOH, suggestions like, “You could carry carrots, bread and yogurt with you" doesn’t resonate with me when I am out on a Chowhounding adventure! Do you say, "I need my comfort food"? Perhaps you are trying to become a Chowhound and backslide a bit or you are trying to learn about good food. Sure there are Chowhounds with personal foibles that need comfort food; those who fondly remember the Kraft slices with black bubbles or have served Velveeta and Rotel over chips. These memories are not relevant to Chowhounding and causes credibility shrinkage with many. Savoring the smells and tastes is what Chowhounds do. Do we really want comments interjected about manufactured food from chains? Where do you draw the line and wished someone could be banished to the “Chains” board? I don’t think avoiding chains is elitist. They are boring (and the whole point is they are predictable). I remember why this site was founded and why I joined. What is your motivation for being on Chowhound? What special do you bring to the party? Do you smell the wine or pause to wonder what’s in the food that makes it unique? Do you experiment at home, try a new place or a new dish? What separates us from other foodie sites? Sat Oct 10 14:33:17 -0700 2009 137946 Scargod 1 5094830 I've been thinking about this and checking for responses since last night. I suspect that many are not entering into this discussion since it feels like such a huge potential mine field. It is all so subjective - one person finds oatmeal bland and boring, the next loves it because mommy made it on cold school mornings and the next adores identifying the subtleties they find between heirloom oats from N. Dakota vs S. Dakota. They all are correct - all different facets of the prism. Each is experiencing deliciousness (or not) in his own way based on how he is wired to perceive. Yes, we can expand our experiences and through that our perceptions may change. But not everyone has the same need for new experiences. Some people love a high degree of familiarity from day to day. Doesn't mean that their perception of what is delicious is incorrect - it obviously is correct for them. Inconsistency and dichotomy are a part of each of us - and on such a focused forum those aspects can appear larger than they really are. I'm still thinking, but that is all I can manage on one cup of coffee! Sun Oct 11 08:15:11 -0700 2009 5093807 111267 meatn3 1 5094838 What sets CH apart from all the other foodie sites? I totally trust Chowhound! (1) When I'm looking for a restaurant recommendation in a place I'm unfamiliar with, CH is my #1 go-to resource. With few exceptions (i.e., from those who post a self-promotion disguised as a bona fide recommendation), the recs that appear here are accurate and, importantly, unbiased. And they come from folks who enjoy food as I do. (2) When I need help with a recipe, I know that the folks who respond to my query know what they're talking about. I may get a number of varied responses to a question, but I know they're all sincere and well thought out. (3) I never feel that a question I've posted is "dumb." It could be something as basic as "How should I slice the onions when I'm making onion soup?," but I know I'm going to get replies from folks who have actually considered my question and thought about their replies. (4) CH is a "2-way street." I like to give back as often as possible, offering anecdotes from my own experiences that might actually prove helpful to others. (5) CH is a diverse virtual community, united by a common thread -- our love for and interest in all things related to food. Where food is concerned, even my closest friends don't understand me in the same way as CHers do. Case in point -- friends and family I traveled with this past summer in Italy and France couldn't understand why my camera was almost always out at mealtime. No -- I wasn't taking photos of my dining companions; I was taking photos of the food!!! Sun Oct 11 08:20:20 -0700 2009 5093807 49600 CindyJ 2 5094910 Second CindyJ's reasons. I had to think many hours before answering this one, too - I think it could be a minefield. When I joined, I felt that I had found kindred spirits; still do. All of us have to be open and tolerant of other's tastes, cultures, and desires. I don't understand why some CHers hate all chains, but I will fight for their right to do so. Just yesterday I had to order a small fries from McDonald's - heaven, hadn't had them in months. And I'll want Wendy's chili as soon as it gets cooler here. I love chili and make great ones, but my husband just isn't that into them. Even tho' I've been cooking for some 40 years, I'm still a student of it, still learning and experimenting, and I get *so* much help from this site. And it's wonderful to converse with local people about places to eat and shop. I haven't and won't critisize other CHers for their opinions, the way they write or "speak", or ask them how they could not like/dislike something I like/dislike. No explanation needed. The only thing I'd wish for the future is more lightening up of all of us - some people jump on a person for posting something that's been posted before - that's scary, especially for new members. I check the old posts first, and even tho' I had posted one where I said I KNEW I was re-posting an older (2 years ago) thread, I still got called on it. You know: so what. Reply to it with updates, or ignore it. It's not life and death! I love this site and hope to spend many, many happy and informative years here. Paula Sun Oct 11 09:00:02 -0700 2009 5094838 253735 bayoucook 1 5095131 I am here because I like to be able to post something (and get answers from) others that are "interested" in food enough to be on this site. They don't have to like the same things I do. It is disconcerting to have some make big "proclamations" about food and taste though. It is totally unnecessary to call a food boring, proclaim that all chains are bad, criticize someone because they don't grind their own hamburger or make a homemade pie crust or write off all their opinions if they actually like macaroni and cheese, etc. I don't think those things are less Chowhoundish at all. Cripes, one day I drink a 1984 La Tache....the next I drink a Bud Light. Am I Chowhound one day and not the next? What if I eat at the French Laundry on a Saturday night, then go to IHOP for breakfast Sunday? The definition of snobbish/boorishness to me is being stuck in a particular way of thinking. I hope that doesn't happen here too much. Sun Oct 11 11:18:17 -0700 2009 5093807 1110504 sedimental 1 5095138 "Even Leff, our founder and mentor has reconsidered how much and what he eats" I can distill it very simply: I discovered that there's a sixth sense (after the standard four plus umami): how one feels after eating. And I started factoring that in, eventually downright craving that particular sort of satisfaction. It fundamentally changed how I eat (and my health and appearance). I don't perceive myself to have turned my back on food. I feel like I've taken it to the next level. I'm eating different but better. I hadn't previously realized you could eat deliciously and not feel like crap afterwards. I now understand I was doing it all wrong before. I've gone into greater detail about this on my Slog http://jimleff.blogspot.com/ Sun Oct 11 11:24:19 -0700 2009 5093807 10089 Jim Leff 1 5095287 I like the community and the genuine helpfulness I find here. I used to spend most of my online cooking-related time on Usenet (rec.food.cooking) until about 5 or 6 years ago. I'd encountered Chowhound before, sometimes by serendipitous accident, and I'd read it for quite some time before actually joining and becoming a poster. I am in it more for finding cooking tips, tricks, etc., hence much of my time is spent on the Home Cooking board, but I have checked the boards for restaurant recommendations. But I guess I'm more of a cooking experimenter (and I do like to discover the nuances). And the help I get (and give) on here is far better than any other cooking site--I mean, I have to thank the Chowhounds for talking me out of buying those silly steak buttons at Sur La Table. I also appreciate the fact that I get real opinion here. Often diverging opinion, but real nonetheless (hence the occasional heated tiffs!). Meatn3 put it quite nicely: one person finds oatmeal bland and boring, the next loves it because mommy made it on cold school mornings and the next adores identifying the subtleties they find between heirloom oats from N. Dakota vs S. Dakota. They all are correct - all different facets of the prism Sun Oct 11 13:06:13 -0700 2009 5093807 131171 nofunlatte 1 5096111 I feel many have contributed very thoughtful and relevant comments. Perhaps others don't don't see what the fuss is. I love steel-cut oats. That would be discussed in the cooking area I would think. Home Cooking and those related areas are a wonderful asset and I agree wholeheartedly that they have great value. It seems we are entering a new era with the revised Restaurants and Bars area. It is a good change I have hoped for. It is a work in progress. It is felt by some to be the first step in dumbing down the site and ending up like Yelp. Are you aware that all of McDonald's, Burger King, Pizza Hut and Kentucky Fried Chicken is represented in the Restaurant listings? In the past twelve months, in the New England board alone, there were right at 100 posts referring to McDonald's. Most were either referencing where a good restaurant was located in relationship to a McDonald's or they used McDonald's name in a scornful or derisive way. A handful liked the fries. Will we see a proliferation of revues for all kinds of places like these that escape the net of the chains board. Will they stay mixed in with all restaurants? Won't this degrade Chowhound's credibility? Who will keep up with this and the revues? I don't exactly see it being like Wikipedia. I worry about losing some of what makes us special. I want to discuss the uniqueness, complexity and specialness of food and restaurants. I do not want to discuss celery sticks and processed cheese. These common items are not new, unique or distinctive and don't need to be revisited or discussed. Some restaurants and the food they serve don't either. I sure hope the quality of our discussions about our local restaurants and food resources on the regional boards stays at the same high level and that we remain a credible and dependable resource for all food Hounds. Sun Oct 11 20:17:09 -0700 2009 5093807 137946 Scargod 2 5096554 I don't know about you, but I don't read every post in every category. Some of them hold little or no interest for me. Then there are those topics I might go to once in a while if I have a specific question. It's a good idea keeping the categories separated as they are; that way, someone who doesn't care about chain restaurants, or beer, or [FILL IN YOUR OWN TOPIC] doesn't have to sift through posts to read something that IS of interest. And if I confess that I really do like McDonald's french fries, I shouldn't need to run for cover to protect myself from the barrage of spatulas that will be thrown at me. The CH moderators (with help from readers) do a pretty darned good job of making sure posts are on topic. I think those are some of the criteria that lend consistency and credibility to the site. Mon Oct 12 06:32:59 -0700 2009 5096111 49600 CindyJ 1 5096157 >> What separates us from other foodie sites? You mean there are other foodie sites???? Seriously, I welcome any post where a CH finds anything new, exciting or unusual; sadly read those bemoaning the decline of a former icon, and even tolerate those mentioning chains providing they have an interesting viewpoint to continue--after all sometimes we have to visit a venue where there are no eating choices other than chains. It's fun to keep track of the disagreements, providing the participants identify their biases and refrain from personal attacks, for I enjoy hearing from people with different opinions...thats how one learns new things. Sun Oct 11 20:44:40 -0700 2009 5093807 11791 DonShirer 2 5096254 I'm OK with exciting, or unusual and differing opinions. Whether we "must" eat at a chain is irrelevant to me. There are some things we do to get by or do to solve a problem. I ate at a Chili's in an airport recently out of necessity. It seems pointless to discuss a known entity; a mass produced food where they are noteworthy only for consistency and mediocrity.It isn't Chow-worthy. I hope we have better things to discuss. When someone goes on about how good a Whopper is, when overwhelming they are of no interest to Chowhounds, then they loose some credibility with me when they post about other restaurants. An analogy: If someone drives a Yugo, what is the likelihood they can recommend a good car for me to buy? Sun Oct 11 21:48:09 -0700 2009 5096157 137946 Scargod 3 5096356 "When someone goes on about how good a Whopper is, when overwhelming they are of no interest to Chowhounds, then they loose some credibility with me when they post about other restaurants" I understand why they might lose some credibility with you, but I hope this is not an absolute rule for you. I think it is possible to have a very broad palate, and to appreciate many different types of experiences. If a poster only posts about fast food chains, and how much they love them, fine, this is obviously not someone who shares your sensibility, and it makes sense that you would not take a lot of their opinions very seriously, as they have a very different palate than yourself. But I disagree that fast food is "of no interest to Chowhounds". Food of any kind is of interest to Chowhounds. The whole point about this site is that diehard Chowhounds obsess about food. That is why I joined this site, and that is why I continue to participate. I am obsessed with food. You may not share my interest in fast food, or fine wine, or Korean cuisine, or donuts, or candy, or fois gras. You don't have to share my obsession about the many different kinds of food I love. But I would hope that you would respect my love and obsession with food itself. I think it is possible for someone to appreciate fast food, and yet still have a fairly well-developed palate when it comes to fine dining, or to excellent BBQ, or fine hole-in -the-wall establishments with Mom and Pop providing real home-style cooking. I'd like to think I successfully cross many food barriers. But if you devalue my contributions and reduce my relative worth as a Chowhound because I occasionally elegize the Fliet-o-Fish, well, I think you are shutting a few doors , as I think I can provide a few tips on good eating that might very well suit your tastes. It's all about the food. I think if a bunch of Chowhounds were stuck on a desert island with rations from a variety of countries, we'd spend an inordinate amount of time arguing about who has the best hardtack. As far as I see it, we are an obsessed bunch. Mon Oct 12 00:20:37 -0700 2009 5096254 89969 moh 4 5096442 Excellent points, moh - same thing I was trying to say up-post. Mon Oct 12 04:25:40 -0700 2009 5096356 253735 bayoucook 4 5096950 Revelation 3:16 - So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth. I meant to say "overwhelmingly" (above). Overwhelm: "To overpower in thought or feeling". Sure, some people like McD's fries and Whoppers. It seems there has to be a place for this small number, here on democratic, open to all Chowhound, no matter what our manifesto proclaims. Chowhound has wisely tried to isolate chain talk by creating the Chains board. We all open and close doors as we see fit. I have areas and people I follow and contribute to. Primarily I try and be helpful on the New England board. I have my trusted Hounds. I certainly see a place on local boards for helpful comments like, "Of all the places to eat in the Charlotte airport, I would suggest Brookwood Farms BBQ. Pizza Hut Express is another option". Please let me reiterate: I didn't start this thread to berate chain food, per se. It's really not the essence of the discussion. I am trying to cause dialog and raise consciousness. Things have changed. I think that we need peer pressure and voices of reason to influence the direction and balance of Chowhound. I am talking about keeping focused on what got us here. Will mediocrity dramatically influence a site dedicated to finding optimal deliciousness? Have we inadvertently signaled that mediocrity is OK by including all restaurants in the database? This is not a Moderator driven issue. I think it will be interesting to see how the management of Chow/Chowhound proceeds. Will they keep all the chaf with the wheat in the Restaurants and Bars area? Will your head spin when you look at the discord in the “Quick Reviews”? Will they allow shallow Yelp-like hyperbolic reviews and five stars for a sleazy pizza joint? Will posts proliferate and polarize for and against a rating for the pizza joint? Will we become confused by the rating system and rely more heavily on those we know and align with on the boards? Mon Oct 12 09:17:20 -0700 2009 5096356 137946 Scargod 5 5097160 "Will they keep all the chaf with the wheat in the Restaurants and Bars area? Will your head spin when you look at the discord in the “Quick Reviews”? Will they allow shallow Yelp-like hyperbolic reviews and five stars for a sleazy pizza joint? Will posts proliferate and polarize for and against a rating for the pizza joint? Will we become confused by the rating system and rely more heavily on those we know and align with on the boards?" Tune in tomorrow for another episode of "As the Hound Consumes!" ;-D> Mon Oct 12 10:23:25 -0700 2009 5096950 108169 Servorg 5 5097741 First of all, if you are in the SF Bay Area, here's a wanring to disregard any of my reports about local food due to my posts on the chains board Ode to a McRib http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/327816#1892559 The umami of McDonald’s double cheese burger http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/352245 Chow bought the restaurant database. It lists almost all restaurants and that includes chains. It is no endorsement. You wanted the star ratings and it seems now you are questioning it. Everyone has their own view of what Chowhound is about. It accomodates all of those. That is what makes it popular. It has something for everyone. It seems you have an idea of Chowhound standards that people should adhere to. If you are looking for some sort of consensus you will be frustrated. A phrase from Leftonian Chowhound jumps to mind. That would be "like herding cats": Mon Oct 12 14:09:08 -0700 2009 5096950 10264 rworange 1 5097304 I had a hard time wrapping my brain around your post, only because I wasn't sure if you are really interested in what "my" motivation is for being here, and then condemning "me" if I have the wrong answer (gods help me, and the hell with what it does to my non-existent "cred" but I LIKE good old bad RoTel & Velveeta) or if you are simply (and understandably, based on your post - another site I frequent has turned into a hot-dog vendors forum, and it bugs me) ticked off at the Restaurants section. What brings me here is not what brings you here. What brings me here may not be what Leff envisioned, though oddly enough I'm a fairly early adopter, and though I don't fit your mold of a 'Hound, I haven't been chased off over the years. Because to me, this site is ultimately about a community that cares about the food. Pretentious? Frequently. Sublime & absurd? Usually. Speaking to me, whether I give a shit about steel-cut oats or not? Always. Mon Oct 12 11:14:22 -0700 2009 5093807 20991 shanagain 1 5097342 "Where do you draw the line and wished someone could be banished to the “Chains” board? I don’t think avoiding chains is elitist. They are boring (and the whole point is they are predictable)." I don't think it's my role to banish any poster to anywhere on CH. As I have posted many times before, I have certain scheduled forays into Chainland (McDonalds for a sausage biscuit and hashbrowns, BK for a Jr. Whopper and onion rings, often on the same day, driving to and from NY to my mother in North Carolina at Christmas). I enjoy those forays. I look forward to them. I also enjoy the martini I have in the lobby of the Jefferson Hotel in Richmond, sitting there with my dog, and the great dinner I have in Richmond each year on that trip, thanks to CH. I enjoy stopping along the country roads of NC to buy bacon and other products from tiny roadside stores. One of the best Thai meals I've had was thanks to CH, on an obscure country road in Virginia, between Amherst and Charlottesville. I frequent Balthazar in Manhattan even though many 'hounds thinks it's a tourist trap, because they have great steak tartare and frites. I drag my husband to the "outer boroughs" in search of great chow. I stop in Pelham to get a Cubano sandwich on the way to the beach in the Bronx with my dog. I use CH to find a place to have lunch in Ogunquit, ME on my way home from Kennebunkport. I pause, and I wonder, and I enjoy each day I spend on CH. I joined looking for restaurants in London six years ago and am still here. I would not be the cook that I think I am today without the Home Cooking board. I don't participate in any other food websites and I detest the word "foodie", though I make a point of not detesting those who use the word. Mon Oct 12 11:27:17 -0700 2009 5093807 10985 MMRuth 2 5098366 MMRuth, WOOF, WOOF, WOOF! What a terrific post! I'd like to share something with not only you, but everyone reading this: This thread makes me want to skip cereal for breakfast tomorrow, and head straight for the McDonald's drive-through down the street to grab a Sausage & Cheese McGriddle (no egg, please) with hash browns JUST BECAUSE IT TASTES GOOD TO ME, DAMMIT! I am here to share and to learn and (hopefully) to help people passing through my neck of the woods find their way to tasty treats and meals. Many people who have responded have shared recipes and tips with me--I appreciate your friendship as Chowhounds. Hopefully, from time to time I've returned the favor for you. Thanks and happy eating...no matter where or what you may be eating, or what you drive (or ride or the shoes you wear to walk) on your way there. EAT AND LET EAT! PEACE. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvdjI5xhXno&feature=related P.S. Wonder if I can win a million dollars? Mon Oct 12 18:21:51 -0700 2009 5097342 249664 kattyeyes 3 5099013 Thanks for lowering the thread a notch by yelling and cursing and linking to the brainwashing video. ;) Obviously there are folks here who are of two minds. There are Chowhounds who know food and then they take off that hat on occasion. It's more like a badge of honor that I do not (any more than I do). I'm not going to reveal it or revel in it on Chowhound if I go to Wendy's. I remember just reading an article from the NYT Sunday magazine (food-centric edition), talking about how he and his girlfriend (and then wife), went through periods of being vegetarians and then not. As I've matured (or perhaps just got older), I've eaten less and less at fast food places. Three things: It just wasn't satisfying me, the quality was poor (or suspect), and my cholesterol was going up. I made a conscious decision to change my eating habits. I know there are young people on here who are learning that there is better food out there. If only they can get past the golden arches image seared into their brain... As I have made forays to Yelp looking for kindred souls in the New Haven area I have found people who eat anywhere and everywhere; Wendy's, Friendly's, Olive Garden and Chili's are all just fine. They seem indiscriminate, still experimenting or lacking in motivation or will. I just don't get it unless it's economics or immaturity.. I now recall that I was doing this very thing into my early 30's. Nowadays I am NIMBY about this. I just don't want it on Chowhound. Do what you will, just don't tell me about it. Tue Oct 13 05:44:29 -0700 2009 5098366 137946 Scargod 4 5099108 "Nowadays I am NIMBY about this. I just don't want it on Chowhound. Do what you will, just don't tell me about it." You overlook or ignore the fact that this is not "your" backyard. It is a "community yard" where all are welcome to feel the grass on their feet and the sun on their faces. Tue Oct 13 06:30:36 -0700 2009 5099013 108169 Servorg 5 5099126 I've noticed a CH or two, who have been here since it started, can be a little proprietal about this website. Think how boring it would be if it weren't infused with fresh air all the time. That lovely fresh air that we all feel with our feet in the grass and the sun on our faces, with our wonderful, interesting, varying opinions. Tue Oct 13 06:40:29 -0700 2009 5099108 253735 bayoucook 6 5099144 I get the sense that it's less about how long some have been around and more about basic personalities, but I take your influx of fresh air and raise you a warm, gentle breeze off the Pacific... ;-D> Tue Oct 13 06:47:19 -0700 2009 5099126 108169 Servorg 5 5099505 And BINGO was his name-o. You go, Servorg! :) I like sharing the grass with you here. Tue Oct 13 08:50:48 -0700 2009 5099108 249664 kattyeyes 4 5099155 I would just hate for new hounds, or lurkers who want to start posting, to feel as if their opinions aren't welcome because they occasionally eat in chain restaurants. It's our loss if we don't get to benefit from the chow tips they have to offer. Tue Oct 13 06:51:36 -0700 2009 5099013 10985 MMRuth 5 5099350 I would hate that, too, MMR. I wish that because I question the Chow-worthiness of some members that I would not be branded as someone that would exclude them if I could. I've never said that. I posed the question that if someone spoke positively about chains, wouldn't it be nice if they could be banish to the chain board. I didn't mean to propose that we could all have a "banish button" and eliminate these people. People have had their threads moved to the chains board. We can certainly ask to have inappropriate comments removed. And hey, No one "wishes" they could banish someone on here? What I don't want, and will repeat again, is to see the site watered down and compromised from what it was founded to be. I refer you back to the manifesto. Tue Oct 13 08:00:53 -0700 2009 5099155 137946 Scargod 6 5099372 Wasn't the manifesto re-written (somewhat) at some point....since the updated site doesn't resemble the original pre-CNET site, under the original manifesto, why refer to it today? Live and let live is a choice, but I will welcome everyone here. Tue Oct 13 08:08:23 -0700 2009 5099350 36312 HillJ 7 5099826 YES. Even you posted about it as did Servorg and MMRuth: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/532567#3816230 Mr Taster's comment. For those inclined, the whole thread (about CNET changing the manifesto), makes for an interesting read. Tue Oct 13 10:30:32 -0700 2009 5099372 137946 Scargod 8 5099879 Thought so. Thanks for retrieving it. After reading thru installments of Bubbles, Slogs, and Selling Out by JLeff, which includes the good bye letter he & Bob drafted before CNET took interest (in Install #1) and the continuation of this community under a CBS model that includes huge crossover marketing & advertising campaigns, I no longer hyper focus on any of the baby steps I enjoyed at the time (pre CNET) because this large community is what ultimately becomes of a very popular site...and in some Net circles considered a success story built on original, foundership slog. Tue Oct 13 10:43:53 -0700 2009 5099826 36312 HillJ 6 5099426 I understood your comment about banishing someone to Chains as meaning that such a poster would only be allowed to post on Chains. If I miss understood you, I apologize. Tue Oct 13 08:25:53 -0700 2009 5099350 10985 MMRuth 5 5099885 MMR - I've seen at least three would-be posters banish themselves after starting a post that had been posted before (hard to find one that hasn't!) and got a sharp reply or two about it. I could tell from their response that they may continue to lurk, but wouldn't be likely to respond again. I'm basically out-spoken, but I find myself intimidated sometimes as well (like when I first posted on *this* one here!). I carefully posted once or twice on something that had been posted before (knew to do my homework ahead of time), but *years* ago, and I wanted updated, fresh info. I love this site, and all of you are so interesting to me; I want to stay a part of it and not be afraid, and hope others will feel the same. Tue Oct 13 10:44:37 -0700 2009 5099155 253735 bayoucook 4 5099501 Hey, NIMBY, please be a gentleman and don't tell me--or any of us--how to post! That's in the rules, too! And how 'bout this for being a good Chow citizen (as I know deep in your heart you are and mean to be): PLEASE stop making digs at people like, "I can't believe you eat at McDonald's." This isn't the sacred Chow confessional--it is a community. The other day while I was talking to you and on a tear about a particular subject, you asked if I was hypoglycemic (which I translated to mean I seemed crabby and needed to eat something)...so back atcha: Do you need a snack? ;) You don't have to go to Mickey D's...you can go to Katz's! Have a pastrami for me. And remember who encouraged you to go there in the first place. BIG WINK! Tue Oct 13 08:49:36 -0700 2009 5099013 249664 kattyeyes 3 5101223 I'm with you here, for the most part. Everyone has different tastes, and hey, if it tastes good to you, why should I knock that fact? I might knock the place you like, but your input is still valuable, even if our taste buds disagree. For me personally, I also have to factor in food ethics in my decision regarding whether or not I eat at a place, but I also nearly always find that the food I want to eat due to ethical concerns tastes better anyway. More generally in regard to the initial post, something that has always bothered me about Chowhound is the attitude, of many who post on the boards, of the moderators, and, in a more abstract sense, the website itself, that not all information is valuable. That certain input should be removed, restricted, or never should have been added in the first place, is, to me, a disturbing suggestion (though obviously some level of moderation is absolutely necessary, the extent of which is a difficult judgment). The beauty of the internet, from the very beginning, has always been that it is the most complete realization of the Classical notion of the marketplace of ideas, viewed by the Founding Fathers, particularly Thomas Jefferson, as absolutely the most essential element of a successful democracy. Sure, this is just a food website, but any place where ideas are exchanged should be a microcosm of democracy itself.What does it say about our democracy if we want to silence the ideas of others? Sure, tell me you're going to completely shut out any idea put forth by a Neo-Nazi, but please don't tell me he doesn't deserve to voice his opinion in the public domain just as much as you or I. Eating at a chain is not even in the same ballpark, not even the same sport, as thinking Hitler was an okay guy. If skinheads get to vote for president and shout into megaphones on street corners, chain lovers certainly have their place on Chowhound. The other attitude that gets my goat, which I see here a lot, is that certain foods or certain food cultures are somehow more or less worth of conversation than others. All things Asian and Latin American are pretty much always embraced, while often all things American and sometimes certain things European have scorn heaped upon them. One will simply never see, "Oh, not another suggestion for ramen," or "Oh, not another suggestion for enchiladas," the way that one will quite frequently see a suggestion for pizza or hot dogs dismissed. Why is a great hamburger place inherently less valuable than a great yakitori place? Okay, I can see that generally, an area is more likely to be bereft of yakitori than of hamburgers, and a person looking for great chow in their area is more likely to be in need of that yakitori suggestion than that hamburger suggestion, but who cares? Did that hamburger suggestion somehow make a yakitori suggestion disappear? At worst, it added nothing to the conversation. It certainly did not somehow detract. Maybe some people think that a thread will somehow get cluttered up by suggestions that have added nothing to the conversation, but I've never come across a thread so long that I couldn't easily navigate through it. If you don't dig hamburgers, and you see the word hamburger in a post, skip it. It's not hard to do. Also, I came kind of late to the Chowhound scene. I never came across the site in its original incarnation, but only when the New York Times did a feature on the relaunch. Maybe that's why, but I couldn't care any less about the content of the manifesto (which reads a lot more like a credo). I don't know the first thing about Jim Leff. I am grateful for his starting this site, and I mean no offense to the guy, but his is just one voice in a quite large community. I don't see why any individual's opinion should frame every discussion here. Maybe that means I'm not a true chowhound, but that's okay by me. I'm not looking to self apply a label anyway. I like food. I like to talk about food. I like to hear what other people have to say about food, some more than others. This is a good place for those things, the best I have found, in fact. But that's it, and if it has to be more complicated than that, count me out. Tue Oct 13 19:00:25 -0700 2009 5098366 36408 danieljdwyer 1 5097498 Nearly all of my restaurant owning and musician playing friends visit CH. They kept turning J & me onto great road chow, CH resto rec's and eventually we began blazing our own food love trail. One day, J & I decided to join the site as members. btw-J & I share the s/n HillJ; drives some of you CH's crazy I know. Speaking for myself, I love to EXPERIMENT. CH provides a fresh and lively recipe lab. Many of the daily questions asked and answered provide me and my family with more than a year's worth of experimentation. I hope my contributions to the Home Cooking board help inspire a few fellow hounds...but I admit the take away is probably far greater than the give. My hats off to those of you that don't mind the imbalance. As for the label foodie, CH, whatever comes next-I can't relate to the limitations of either. Call me a foodhound. Mon Oct 12 12:27:40 -0700 2009 5093807 36312 HillJ 1 5097562 I'm a real foodie and have been since I was a teenager washing dishes in a very good French restaurant. I owe my "foodiness" not to my parents but to the chef at that restaurant, who somehow realized I was serious, and gave me a fine elementary training in the ways of the kitchen -- and the ways of fine ingredients and wines. I cringed when I watched "Hell's Kitchen" and saw all of the professionals *failing* the "taste test" challenge -- most ingredients were very, very basic. My wife said "they can't taste that stuff 'cause they're always out back smoking!" I smoke, and I think I could do better (perhaps not, though, under the stress of the cameras). My peers in the restaurant business say that I've got a pretty good knack at deconstructing sauces and wine tasting. I don't really know about the wine part. In some blind tastings, I've just been lucky. Scargod, will you *ever* forgive me if I tell you that yes, about four times a year, I visit McDonald's with one thing in mind: a Big Mac. I eat it for what it is, a flavorful reminder of my childhood. And when I was a kid, we didn't have the $ to go out often - McDonald's was quite the treat back then. My other "comfort food" passion are good hot dogs -- but when in NYC, I invariably have one or two "dirty-water" hot dogs. I recently discovered Chow.com. It's a breath of fresh air to see that *so many* people are just as fussy about ingredients and methods that I am. This is also a place where I can learn many lessons about running a restaurant (my job). I read reviews of restaurants all over the place, so I see what diners like and don't like, and what other restaurants are doing to keep their customers extra-happy. Far from being a "food snob," I'm delighted with the opportunity to discuss ingredients with others who're just discovering them, even thought I may think they're not unusual or new at all. Mon Oct 12 12:51:00 -0700 2009 5093807 270888 shaogo 2 5097758 Some are saying, "I'm a sinner" and others have no shame. I really don't care as long as you don't bring it home with you! I'm just a little amazed at the numbers of people who are fair weather Chowhounds. OK, by your standards a Whopper is to swoon over. Most Chowhounds think not. We want the one with jalapenos and Stilton, cooked in duck fat, on an onion roll. Really all I would like to see is people keeping this to themselves (or in Vegas). This site is not about cookie cutter food. I mean, if you've been there, done that a few hundred times, like everybody else, what is there to talk about? I didn't realize I would meet with criticism for saying I am a "foodie". I obviously don't think of it in the same terms as some. I am the Cheshire Cat; it means what I say it does! There's little elitist about how we eat and I am not consumed with following NYT reviews, fads, chefs and the new hot restaurant. I do not have a ring in my nose. To me a foodie is someone consumed with all aspects of food. Since I grow it, catch it, shoot it, cook it and consume it, therefore I am. I suppose there is snobbishness on my part. I have been on this site a long time. I want innovation and a site that is running on all eight cylinders. I want sophistication and searchability (as on Yelp). What I don't want are people inundating the site with hyperbole about pizza, hamburgers and hot dogs that are, in fact, ordinary. I guess I have reached the curmudgeon stage. Mon Oct 12 14:22:40 -0700 2009 5097562 137946 Scargod 3 5097769 Scargod, curmudgeon stage-hardly. Plus, in order to discuss this-you have to put IT out there, man. So go on. However , I don't understand how a big site like this, welcoming advertisers who are obviously big businesses won't attract consumers of the same mindset. Imho, it's unfair and unrealistic to advertise on say, yahoo groups and elsewhere (which CH does regularly to attract members/advertisers/media) and welcome advertisements specifically from large chains and mainstream businesses and not welcome CH members with these food interests. Since you mentioned: "We want the one with jalapenos and Stilton, cooked in duck fat, on an onion roll." I respectfully disagree. CH's want well made, god I love cooking this for you, deliciousness in all forms. Mon Oct 12 14:27:33 -0700 2009 5097758 36312 HillJ 4 5097804 This is how it is evolving, isn't it? A year ago you weren't covered up with slow loading Flash. It has gone very mainstream and bling-bling. It is still frustrating a lot of people, like me, with its endless "I'm sorry, I have lost my mind" error messages... Everyone should realize that without us the site would not exist. We have clout, whether we realize it or not. We provide the "boots on the ground" information that people want. This includes recommendations for where to eat, reviews, recipes and cooking help. The rest is window dressing and as some might put it, "designed for the "foodie"! Mon Oct 12 14:40:25 -0700 2009 5097769 137946 Scargod 5 5097814 and Scargod, I'd say keep going but to give us the forum to dig our heels in for FREE, the window dressing, turkey trimmings and bloated turkey!! are also part of the deal. Enjoy the meal! Mon Oct 12 14:42:57 -0700 2009 5097804 36312 HillJ 3 5097829 For the record,it's the Big Mac I said I enjoy because it brings back my childhood. Wild horses couldn't get me to eat at Burger King or other fast-food joints. And the Big Mac's the only thing I buy from MacDonald's. That being said, yeah, I appreciate the poor "signal to noise ratio" that Scargod's talking about. Those of us who're indeed into the jalapeno/Stilton/duck fat burger (count me in!) are charged with sorting through the reviews about pizza, Olive Garden, bottled barbecue sauce and all things frozen to get to the stuff we're most interested in - super-fresh vegetables, exotic spices, prime meats, pristine seafood. Mon Oct 12 14:46:09 -0700 2009 5097758 270888 shaogo 4 5097835 Would tags help you find the gem you seek? Mon Oct 12 14:48:35 -0700 2009 5097829 36312 HillJ 5 5097840 I've clicked on tags before but don't use them as often as I should. I use search most often to find what I'm looking for. Mon Oct 12 14:50:25 -0700 2009 5097835 270888 shaogo 6 5097868 Chow search has been so flaky in the past that I often forget to try it. I go to Google and plug in the key words... I don't even know where to look for tags! FWIW, CHOW should spend a little advertising space educating folks about new features and how things work. Seems like it is catch as catch can right now. Where are the FAQs and "What's New" that we need? Mon Oct 12 15:01:50 -0700 2009 5097840 137946 Scargod 7 5097887 http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/604782 from JustineR over at the Tech Board..tags.. Mon Oct 12 15:08:21 -0700 2009 5097868 36312 HillJ 1 5097876 I'm in it for the money. Mon Oct 12 15:03:25 -0700 2009 5093807 135229 thew 2 5097889 hilarious Mon Oct 12 15:09:01 -0700 2009 5097876 36312 HillJ 1 5097956 This thread is a bit ethereal and simpleton as I am, its essence may be orbiting over my head. The utopian state of being that every Chowhound post should be a valuable nugget that we can seize to advance our gastronomical virtuosity is not practical. And it is a slippery slope toward elitism. I said in the past that the C'hound highway includes Volkswagens and Porsches, each with an equal right to the road. There will always be dirt to sift to find the gem you want. Others of us eat dirt. Some of us have to work for a living, you know. :) Mon Oct 12 15:34:26 -0700 2009 5093807 57170 Veggo 2 5098021 As usual, your wit is only exceeded by your intellect. I don't ask for mercy or exemption. I think I am realizing that to achieve Nirvana you have to be one. I would remind you of my simple beginnings. I am not a straw pilot. I worked a garden at age 8. I cooked at 9. I have unloaded freight cars of food and picked cotton. I guess I am saying I have sifted through the dirt and I have been intimately involved with food all my life. Though I am able to drive the BMW (used to be VW and then old Porsche), I know what it is like to drive a VW. I hope I am not labeled as an elitist or "foodie" IN A BAD WAY. I am sometimes naive. Let's hold hands and sing Kumbaya? Mon Oct 12 15:58:24 -0700 2009 5097956 137946 Scargod 1 5101832 The reason I joined is that I live in Paris yet I get restaurant-fatigue easily. I just can't eat out two days in a row. The pleasure is not there. There are some active chowhounds based in Paris or visiting Paris often who are immune to restaurant-fatigue. I respect their recs greatly. I do deplore a certain tone of certain threads, when, instead of sharing experiences of pleasure, a poster gets into a macho can-you-top-this kind of one-upping. -- Still, not as embarrassing as when people referring to themselves as the cognoscenti. Lastly, I always bear in mind what Steve Martin once said in an interview, something I had always felt but have not put into words, that as he became older, he believed more and more that every meal should count. Wed Oct 14 05:18:53 -0700 2009 5093807 1106797 Parigi 2 5101853 Great line from Steve Martin (I hadn't ever heard it). And I totally dig your avatar. Very cool. :) Wed Oct 14 05:37:08 -0700 2009 5101832 249664 kattyeyes 1 5103623 Today I just received my meat grinder attachment for my Kitchenaid so I can start making my own ground beef, bolognese mix, meatloaf, etc. I made Peter Reinhart's bagels this past weekend (wonderful if anyone wants a great bagel recipe). Both were inspired by CH. Had I made bagels pre-CH days? Sure, but with the wealth of knowledge I've gained here (and down to the recommendation of Breadbaker's Apprentice), I felt so much more confident making this bagel recipe for the first time. I knew what to adjust to suit what I needed and they were amazing. Piece of cake, thanks to CH. That's what motivates me to come here. There are so many helpful knowledgeable people who not only are enthusiastic about food and cooking and eating but are also giving of what they know. I feel like I can ask basic questions to someone like Father Kitchen (and many, many others but I mention him because I've just made bread) and he spends the time to answer every inane little question. I would never have thought to grind my own meat or make sausages in the past, well, in part because I was a vegetarian but other than that because it never occurred to me. Roast my own coffee? Grind my own wheat? Make my own pizza? CH has opened my eyes to how much more there is to cooking than getting dinner on the table or baking chocolate chip cookies. If I want someone who is a geek about getting the right texture, tall cookies, I know I can find people here who will talk to me about protein content, liquids, etc. to get there. IRL, I'm lucky to find people who bake from scratch but when I bring up the details, they don't care to get into it. As eating out goes, I'd never have ventured into a steak restaurant (as I said, I was once a vegetarian) but found the best one in this area and I love it. And, while pizza and burgers are "ordinary", great ones are not. Because of CH, I've found places that make pretty good pizzas (still looking for amazing pizza) and great burgers, not burgers with stilton and duck fat with brioche but just a good old fashioned burger. Not every post is going to be helpful to everyone and we have to sort through the wheat and chaff but wheat and chaff are different for everyone. I find it easy to avoid the chains and easy to avoid threads that don't interest me, from ones that use velveeta cheese to ones that are about using goat head to make tacos (which is fascinating but not something I'd do at home). As Jeff Leff brings up about sorting through M&M's, I find it easy to find the color I want and leave the other colors for others. I don't need to have all one color M&M here because then it would be a boring place. And, I wouldn't discover new things. BTW, yes, I'd be interested in reading about the great apple you just ate. Wed Oct 14 16:26:47 -0700 2009 5093807 39874 chowser 2 5104143 What an absolutely terrific post, chowser. Really great. Congratulations. Wed Oct 14 20:09:26 -0700 2009 5103623 131001 c oliver 3 5104571 Thanks. You're actually one of the people who inspired me to get the meat grinder and try making my own sausages.:-) Thu Oct 15 04:06:44 -0700 2009 5104143 39874 chowser 4 5104961 YAY!!!! Just got back into the country and our first dinner was (beef) burgers that I'd ground and frozen before we left. A perfect meal. We couldnt imagine anything tasting any better. Thawed out some bulk sausage also which we'll be having for breakfast. And *I* started doing these things because Alan Barnes and others started encouraging ME. It's a community and I value the diversity of all. Well, maybe not ALL but bunches anyway :) Thu Oct 15 07:36:44 -0700 2009 5104571 131001 c oliver 5 5105089 Welcome back! What an amazing trip that must have been. I find that some things that don't interest me at first, eventually can catch my eye, like this meat grinding stuff or coffee roasting (Alan Barnes was also the first to encourage me to do that). I go back and look at old threads all the time. I need to go buy some meat now (and look for back threads on it all). Thu Oct 15 08:25:50 -0700 2009 5104961 39874 chowser