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"With au jus" = with with the juice

greygarious Oct 9, 2009 10:47 AM

Just a heads up to the authors of the many posts which refer to eating/cooking meats "with au jus". This incorrect usage may result in your opinions being considered less valuable by others. I don't mean to be snarky, just offering a metaphorical "spinach in your teeth" aside to those who'd be embarrassed.

  1. Veggo Oct 9, 2009 11:07 AM

    The phrase is common parlance in the cafeteria at the Department of Redundancy Department.

    14 Replies
    1. re: Veggo
      l
      lil magill Nov 20, 2009 04:04 PM

      I've eaten there! I have the same thing everytime. Twice!

      1. re: lil magill
        Paulustrious Nov 21, 2009 04:39 AM

        You just reminded me of a sign that was in British Aerospace. It said...

        Planning
        Departm
        ent

      2. re: Veggo
        v
        virtualguthrie Dec 21, 2011 08:58 AM

        Do they serve cheese quesadilla's?

        1. re: virtualguthrie
          s
          sandylc Dec 21, 2011 11:13 AM

          Why the apostrophe in quesadillas? I want to know why people are doing this, not trying to pick on you.

          1. re: sandylc
            paulj Dec 21, 2011 11:28 AM

            I suspect this apostrophe is like the one used on "the 70's". It's a way of gluing the plural 's' on to a word that normally does not take a plural, either because it's a number or foreign. This apostrophe also appears on store names and surnames, often in an ambiguous plural/possessive context.

            Think about how the apostrophe is used in "it's" - it's part of the contraction, gluing 'is' onto 'it'. Why don't we use the apostrophe in the possessive case "its"? I think the rule was invented to resolve an ambiguous situation. We don't pronounce the two "its" differently; but it helps when writing to make the distinction clear.

            I'm not saying that such a usage is right, just that this may be how their minds are working.

            1. re: sandylc
              Parigi Dec 21, 2011 01:18 PM

              The worst of the genre is a bar in Paris, gone now, merci, called Jame's Joyce.

              1. re: Parigi
                TroyTempest Dec 21, 2011 02:08 PM

                Ha! I like that

                1. re: TroyTempest
                  Mr Taster Dec 21, 2011 02:29 PM

                  It's called the "grocers' apostrophe" and it always amuses me.

                  e.g. "Sale! Grape's 2 lbs/$1.00"

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrop...

                  Mr Taster

                  1. re: Mr Taster
                    paulj Dec 21, 2011 03:04 PM

                    That's an interesting article - the diverse, and often controversial, uses of the apostrophe. I wouldn't mind dropping all uses except for the glottal stop, where it has an actual phonetic value.

                    1. re: paulj
                      linguafood Dec 21, 2011 03:36 PM

                      Ha! What about the misuse of quotation marks at grocery stores? "Fresh" apples.

                      Makes ya think....

                2. re: Parigi
                  s
                  sandylc Dec 21, 2011 02:59 PM

                  Jame owns a Joyce?

                  1. re: sandylc
                    Parigi Jan 3, 2012 02:11 AM

                    That must be what the bar name means !

                3. re: sandylc
                  v
                  virtualguthrie Dec 22, 2011 01:57 PM

                  Grammar mistake.

                  1. re: virtualguthrie
                    s
                    sandylc Dec 22, 2011 02:19 PM

                    Happens to the best of us! :-)

            2. c oliver Oct 9, 2009 11:17 AM

              Good point. Also a while back someone pointed out (not on CH) that you shouldn't be mixing/combining languages anyway. The example she gave was "double entendre" but I can't think of a food one offhand --- except au jus.

              13 Replies
              1. re: c oliver
                TroyTempest Dec 21, 2011 02:14 PM

                I had a co-worker who used to go bonkers over Beef Fajitas saying it was redundant, and chicken fajita was impossible, being that the fajita was a cut of beef. According to the dictionary, it is a cut of meat, without the type of meat being specified, but i suspect originally that it was beef. Well, needless to say he never won this battle.

                1. re: TroyTempest
                  c
                  chileheadmike Dec 22, 2011 08:41 AM

                  Fajita = Skirt

                2. re: c oliver
                  s
                  somervilleoldtimer Dec 21, 2011 07:53 PM

                  Soup du jour of the day!

                  1. re: somervilleoldtimer
                    Tripeler Jan 16, 2013 07:45 PM

                    Rather...
                    Today's Soup du Jour of the Day

                    1. re: Tripeler
                      TroyTempest Jan 17, 2013 11:25 AM

                      Reminds me of the old joke, "What is the Soup du Jour? I don't know but they have it every day."

                      1. re: TroyTempest
                        eclecticsynergy Feb 10, 2013 11:08 PM

                        I know a coffeeshop that offers "Free Coffee Tomorrow."
                        A present for their customers which of course never quite arrives in the present tense... And a sign which sometimes renders a less-than-understanding customer somewhat, um, tense.

                        I always thought they should offer Soup du Hier, soup from yesterday. Like stew, it's always better on the second day.
                        One more thing to offer on that subject, attached pic of an honest sign.

                         
                        1. re: eclecticsynergy
                          j
                          jumpingmonk Feb 11, 2013 04:42 AM

                          The first reminds me of the following song from the TV movie version of Alice in Wonderland http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-MLwP...

                          As for the second that takes me back to some of the odd things that could show up at the dining hall back at colledge, like the NY strip soup (steak soup, sure, but they normally 1. don't advertize what cut as part of the name 2. Wouldn't use a cut like that for soup and 3. Served it 3-4 days after a semi-annual festive meal (that they had said had not had enough atendees that year at that hall.)
                          And I suppose that a lot of tradtional kitchens served something like Soup du Hier or more accurately (pardon me for grammar, French is not a language I am fluent in) Soup de Tout de Hiers, soup from all the yesterdays (i.e. the perpetually simmering pot kept on the back burner of many a kitchen into which all leftover meal scraps were tossed in a "waste not want not" plan.

                          1. re: eclecticsynergy
                            m
                            mwhitmore Feb 19, 2013 10:40 AM

                            Also, Potage Garbage, or Crème Frigidaire.

                            1. re: eclecticsynergy
                              l
                              lagatta Feb 19, 2013 02:57 PM

                              Soupe d'hier. Ou soupe de la veille. Sorry, given the thread topic, I couldn't resist.

                      2. re: c oliver
                        BobB Dec 22, 2011 08:56 AM

                        Whoever claimed that "double entendre" is mixing languages clearly doesn't speak French. "Double" is the same word, spelled the same way, in both English and French. It's pronounced differently, of course - the French sounds more like DOOB-lə - but the phrase itself is as completely French as bon appetit.

                        1. re: BobB
                          l
                          Lizard Dec 22, 2011 01:28 PM

                          I'm not sure I follow. The phrase, while using French words, is not used often in French (double sens is more typical-- and in fact, I think I've only ever heard double entendre used by English speakers), Meanwhile, bon appetit is used in the francophone nations I run around in.

                          1. re: Lizard
                            Parigi Dec 22, 2011 01:47 PM

                            Lizard is right. The French do not say double entendre. They say double sens. They don't say nom de plume. They say nom de guerre. They don't say connoisseur. They say connaisseur.

                            1. re: Parigi
                              BobB Dec 22, 2011 01:58 PM

                              Double sens is the modern usage. Looking into this further I find I was slightly incorrect - etymologically it appears that double entendre is actually a corruption of the older French phrase "à double entente." But in either case, "double" is both an English and a French word, so someone insisting it's purely English and shouldn't be mixed with French is clearly off base.

                      3. t
                        Terrieltr Oct 9, 2009 11:50 AM

                        PIN Number
                        ATM Machine
                        With au jus

                        I see it as all the same thing

                        61 Replies
                        1. re: Terrieltr
                          c oliver Oct 9, 2009 11:57 AM

                          The same error.

                          1. re: Terrieltr
                            a
                            Atahualpa Oct 9, 2009 01:24 PM

                            True, they are all highly irritating and bound to lead to either a poor first impression, or a reduced estimation, of you in the mind of those who are listening or reading your output.

                            1. re: Terrieltr
                              c
                              cinnamon girl Oct 9, 2009 02:45 PM

                              PIN number sticks in my craw too along with:
                              SIN number (Canadian)
                              salsa sauce
                              lentils from du puy . . . groan
                              naan bread - don't we know it's bread?

                              1. re: cinnamon girl
                                luckyfatima Oct 13, 2009 02:51 AM

                                yep I was gonna say naan bread and chai tea. but y'all beat me to it.

                                1. re: luckyfatima
                                  paulj Oct 13, 2009 08:47 AM

                                  what would be a more authentically Indian way of talking about 'chai tea' - a (soy) milk, spiced tea mix? If 'chai' just means tea, how do you add the spiced connotation? Some years ago, before 'chai' was a available in liter boxes, I bought a bottle of 'chai massala', a mix of cardamom, ginger, etc., i.e. a spice mix intended for use in 'chai'.

                                  1. re: paulj
                                    thew Oct 13, 2009 09:37 AM

                                    masala chai.

                                    but then that's the way 99% of the tea in india is served so it's what you usually get if you just say chai - you have to specify if you want lemon tea, or no milk or whatever

                                    1. re: thew
                                      d
                                      DeppityDawg Oct 13, 2009 10:00 PM

                                      But there are many many kinds of masala. So you should be sure to specify that you want "chai masala" chai. And to be absolutely sure, "masala chai masala chai". Etc.

                                      1. re: DeppityDawg
                                        luckyfatima Oct 13, 2009 11:52 PM

                                        No, everyone would get what you mean if you said masala chai. Though the specifics of the exact spices use could vary, they would all be within the acceptable range of what spices go in spiced tea.

                                        No one is going to put, say, goda masala or sambar masala in your chai. I promise. :-)

                                      2. re: thew
                                        Scrofula Nov 15, 2009 08:42 PM

                                        No, most tea in India is not served spiced. When you just say 'chai', most people assume you're talking about strong black tea with plenty of milk and probably sugar.

                                        1. re: Scrofula
                                          thew Nov 16, 2009 03:57 AM

                                          i have to say in all my years in india that has not been my experience. most of the tea in india is served in small chai shops, or by roadside chai wallahs, not in fancy restaurants. i would say, that in my experience 99% of those have at least a little spice mixed in the tea.

                                          1. re: thew
                                            Scrofula Nov 16, 2009 01:07 PM

                                            I'd guess that more tea is brewed at home than by chaiwallahs, and I've rarely seen people brew their day-to-day tea with masala. I haven't had a lot of chai shop tea, so I can't comment on how common it is for those to be spiced, though it seems plausible.

                                      3. re: paulj
                                        luckyfatima Oct 13, 2009 09:10 PM

                                        Yes, it would be masala chai as thew says.

                                    2. re: cinnamon girl
                                      m
                                      manicmzungu Jan 15, 2013 12:34 PM

                                      Have you ever actually heard someone say "salsa sauce?" I would probably just assume they have a stutter. ;)

                                      1. re: manicmzungu
                                        c
                                        calumin Jan 15, 2013 07:27 PM

                                        I have heard "salsa sauce" quite a bit in the UK, but not in the US.

                                    3. re: MartinDC
                                      j
                                      jumpingmonk Oct 14, 2009 03:56 PM

                                      from the cheesemarket
                                      "sheep's milk pecorino"
                                      "goat's milk chevre"

                                      1. re: Terrieltr
                                        s
                                        somervilleoldtimer Dec 21, 2011 07:53 PM

                                        I used to work at the TAB Building, i.e. Tufts Administration Building Building

                                        1. re: somervilleoldtimer
                                          globocity Jan 25, 2013 11:06 AM

                                          Kind of like the ATM machine?

                                          1. re: globocity
                                            s
                                            sandylc Jan 25, 2013 06:40 PM

                                            PIN number.

                                            1. re: sandylc
                                              paulj Jan 25, 2013 06:45 PM

                                              Christmas mass

                                              1. re: paulj
                                                j
                                                jumpingmonk Jan 25, 2013 07:12 PM

                                                gunny sack
                                                other option
                                                other alternative

                                                1. re: jumpingmonk
                                                  s
                                                  sandylc Jan 25, 2013 07:31 PM

                                                  Add in.

                                                  1. re: jumpingmonk
                                                    v
                                                    Vidute Jan 26, 2013 11:17 PM

                                                    other option and other alternative have their places. for example, one option is that we have a late lunch; the other option is that we have an early dinner.

                                                    1. re: Vidute
                                                      j
                                                      jumpingmonk Jan 27, 2013 06:05 AM

                                                      Sorry your right I should have put
                                                      no other option
                                                      and
                                                      no other alternative

                                                    2. re: jumpingmonk
                                                      paulj Jan 27, 2013 09:25 AM

                                                      Funny thing about 'gunny sack'. While 'gunny' comes from an Indian word for 'sack', in English it normally refers to the material commonly used for sacks. So adding 'sack' to the phrase in English is not redundant. It is equally common to use 'gunnysack'.

                                                      I bet a lot of posters who object to 'with au jus', don't even flinch when they hear 'gunny sack'.

                                                      1. re: paulj
                                                        j
                                                        jumpingmonk Jan 27, 2013 11:49 AM

                                                        I actually heard something similar on a cartoon yesterday, on whether "Tuna fish" is redundant. On one level the way it is usally used, it sort of is (we don't say "salmon fish" or "bass fish" or, god help me, "swordfish fish". On the other hand I am fairly sure that there are parts of the world where the word means other things (for example isn't "tuna" the word used in parts of the southwest to refer to catus fruit? or does that version have a tilde (in which case I imagine it is pronounce "tunya") in those places, I assume you need the "fish" part to tell which one you are talking about.

                                                        1. re: jumpingmonk
                                                          paulj Jan 27, 2013 04:29 PM

                                                          On Google ngram 'tuna fish' appears around 1910, with a jump in the 1930s. The sources mostly talk about 'canned tuna fish' and related commercial fisheries in the USA. UK usage is much lower.

                                                          'tunny' is more common before that.

                                                          Many of the 19th c references to 'tuna' are to the cactus fruit. That name comes from Spanish.

                                                          In Spanish, the fish is atún.

                                                          More discussion here
                                                          http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/a...
                                                          posts there mention 'tunny fish', and the German Thunfische

                                                        2. re: paulj
                                                          l
                                                          lagatta Feb 19, 2013 03:02 PM

                                                          I'd be one of those. While I knew the original meaning of gunny, alas I don't speak any of the many languages of India or the rest of South Asia. I have spoken French and English from childhood.

                                                      2. re: paulj
                                                        d
                                                        dmjordan Feb 5, 2013 03:17 AM

                                                        OK, I'll admit it. I don't get what's wrong with Christmas mass.

                                                        1. re: dmjordan
                                                          s
                                                          small h Feb 5, 2013 06:21 AM

                                                          Christmas mass = Christ's mass mass

                                                  2. re: somervilleoldtimer
                                                    globocity Jan 25, 2013 11:20 AM

                                                    I've heard CHARCUTERIE pronounced "shock a TER ee" by a few moderately-priced places in Southern CA. I couldn't shake it from my auditory memory.
                                                    I am a very, very basic French speaker.

                                                    Now granted, most English-only speakers wouldn't pronounce it as French speakers would. In fact, my French-speaking American culinary friends agree that it is acceptable and normal to hear it pronounced by servers as "shar COO ter ee".

                                                    And if you ask native French speakers, well there is only one way to say it.

                                                    A correct usage can really depend on how it is informally accepted by the majority of people in the region it is being spoken. But an egregious pronunciation, as pointed out above, is laughable.

                                                    On a different note, in my first trip to Paris, I got a kick out of an Indian server (with a Tamil accent) in Le Marais admonishing my use of "pommes frites". In fact, at first he feigned ignorance when I ordered them. My Parisian friend had to use "french fries" for him to supposedly understand.

                                                    Cheers.

                                                    1. re: globocity
                                                      Mr Taster Jan 25, 2013 01:11 PM

                                                      I really appreciate the way the British pronounce foreign words in an unapologetically British way. For example, "fillet" is pronounced "FILL-it", not "fi-LAY". It lends itself to so much less ambiguity and awkward moments.

                                                      Mr Taster

                                                      1. re: Mr Taster
                                                        paulj Jan 25, 2013 02:07 PM

                                                        http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictio...
                                                        the 'fi-la' pronunciation is limited to the food use. Otherwise we use 'fil-it'. At least in the non-food use it is hardly foreign, going back to Middle English.

                                                        I wonder when and where the pseudo-French pronunciation crept in. It could go back to the 19th c. when the use of French on menu's was all the rage.

                                                        1. re: paulj
                                                          s
                                                          sandylc Jan 25, 2013 06:45 PM

                                                          PAULJ! Is that an apostrophe on a plural???? :-0

                                                          1. re: sandylc
                                                            globocity Jan 26, 2013 07:47 PM

                                                            Ha! Let's give paulj the benefit of the doubt. Would a CHer normally do such a thing? Methink's not.

                                                            Cheers.

                                                            1. re: globocity
                                                              s
                                                              sandylc Jan 26, 2013 08:02 PM

                                                              When my kid was actually a kid he called them "unemployed apostrophes"....

                                                              1. re: sandylc
                                                                globocity Jan 26, 2013 10:59 PM

                                                                Witty kid. I like that term.

                                                                1. re: sandylc
                                                                  Mr Taster Jan 27, 2013 03:45 PM

                                                                  I like to call them "grocers' apostrophes"

                                                                  i.e. "Grape's $0.59/lb"

                                                                  Mr Taster

                                                              2. re: sandylc
                                                                paulj Jan 26, 2013 08:00 PM

                                                                it's called a 'typo'.

                                                                Often when I read my old posts I find mistakes, most commonly missing words. If it weren't for spell checkers, my spelling would be atrocious.

                                                                1. re: paulj
                                                                  s
                                                                  sandylc Jan 26, 2013 08:01 PM

                                                                  You're so smart that I was shocked - !

                                                                  1. re: paulj
                                                                    globocity Jan 26, 2013 08:03 PM

                                                                    I type so fast and have been surprised by my grammatical and spelling errors. Happens to all of us!

                                                                2. re: paulj
                                                                  Mr Taster Feb 2, 2013 02:52 PM

                                                                  See #9 :)

                                                                  http://www.bbcamerica.com/mind-the-ga...

                                                                  Mr Taster

                                                                  1. re: Mr Taster
                                                                    f
                                                                    Fydeaux Feb 4, 2013 06:24 AM

                                                                    Thank you, that was fun. But I prefer Eddie Izzard's reason for pronouncing the 'h' in 'herbs': "BECAUSE THERE'S A F***ING 'H' IN IT!"

                                                                    1. re: Fydeaux
                                                                      Mr Taster Feb 4, 2013 10:37 AM

                                                                      I'd like to counter that by asking him where the 'r' is is ass.

                                                                      Mr Taster

                                                                      1. re: Mr Taster
                                                                        s
                                                                        sandylc Feb 4, 2013 10:45 AM

                                                                        +1,000,000

                                                                        1. re: Mr Taster
                                                                          l
                                                                          lagatta Feb 19, 2013 03:07 PM

                                                                          aRse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arse

                                                                          Yes, in Canada we use both. So we aren't half-arsed, or half-assed.

                                                                          The equine is always an ass.

                                                                      2. re: Mr Taster
                                                                        s
                                                                        sandylc Feb 4, 2013 09:24 AM

                                                                        Funny. Regarding #9, aren't Brits infamously bad at French pronunciations?

                                                                        1. re: sandylc
                                                                          paulj Feb 4, 2013 09:32 AM

                                                                          When is 'fillet' English, and when is it French?

                                                                          http://dictionary.reverso.net/english...
                                                                          various translations of 'fillet' into French

                                                                          1. re: paulj
                                                                            s
                                                                            sandylc Feb 4, 2013 09:40 AM

                                                                            Hm-mm...that is a bigger discussion that has been touched upon often in Chowhouns...I think my one linguistics class isn't enough to expore that fully right now...it's almost a chicken/egg thing.

                                                                        2. re: Mr Taster
                                                                          s
                                                                          sandylc Feb 4, 2013 09:37 AM

                                                                          And when was the last time, outside of 40s movies, that you heard someone call a butt a "fanny"?

                                                                          1. re: sandylc
                                                                            linguafood Feb 4, 2013 10:03 AM

                                                                            Just don't use fanny in England. It's not a butt there.

                                                                            1. re: linguafood
                                                                              s
                                                                              sandylc Feb 4, 2013 10:27 AM

                                                                              I pondered what to call it in my post. Fanny would never be an option in my generation and probably one or two before it, however!

                                                                              I guess "rear" or "bottom" might possible, with "a$$" being a common, if more crude name....

                                                                              And why am I even talking about this - *&*^%*?

                                                                            2. re: sandylc
                                                                              paulj Feb 4, 2013 10:13 PM

                                                                              fanny pack
                                                                              http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&n...

                                                                            3. re: Mr Taster
                                                                              m
                                                                              mwhitmore Feb 19, 2013 10:57 AM

                                                                              Love it. And this: "I love visiting Britain---the natives almost speak English!'

                                                                    2. re: Terrieltr
                                                                      a
                                                                      antimony Jan 3, 2012 02:17 PM

                                                                      the hoi polloi

                                                                      that's the one that gets me.

                                                                      1. re: antimony
                                                                        paulj Jan 3, 2012 03:04 PM

                                                                        Don't be so hoi polloi, oops, I mean hoity-toity! :)

                                                                        1. re: antimony
                                                                          KaimukiMan Feb 11, 2013 01:05 AM

                                                                          they everyday people? I don't understand the issue there.

                                                                          1. re: KaimukiMan
                                                                            s
                                                                            sr44 Feb 19, 2013 10:55 AM

                                                                            "Hoi" means "the"

                                                                        2. re: Terrieltr
                                                                          eclecticsynergy Feb 10, 2013 10:38 PM

                                                                          Terrieltr wrote upthread:

                                                                          "PIN Number
                                                                          ATM Machine
                                                                          With au jus

                                                                          I see it as all the same thing"

                                                                          Or as my pals in Jersey irritatingly used to say, "It's the same difference."

                                                                          Yogi Berra once was asked if a situation wasn't a lot like another that had occurred recently. His answer was, "The similarities are different." !!

                                                                          1. re: eclecticsynergy
                                                                            m
                                                                            MonMauler Feb 10, 2013 10:54 PM

                                                                            I guess a little OT, but one of my favorite Yogi quotes is food related:
                                                                            "Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."

                                                                            If I'm not mistaken, I think he was speaking about an Italian restaurant named Ruggeri's in St. Louis. I don't think they're around anymore.

                                                                            1. re: MonMauler
                                                                              eclecticsynergy Feb 10, 2013 11:14 PM

                                                                              Yep, gotta love Yogi. There's a guy who gets the maximum mileage out of the language.

                                                                              1. re: MonMauler
                                                                                m
                                                                                mwhitmore Feb 19, 2013 10:32 AM

                                                                                I hear/tell it was Toots Shore's in New York. Toots was once asked his favorite recipe for chili: "Open up a couple cans of chili---mighty good!'

                                                                          2. d
                                                                            DeppityDawg Oct 9, 2009 01:32 PM

                                                                            Also, we should never say "the alcohol" or "the alfalfa" because the "al-" part already means "the", right?

                                                                            All languages are full of quirky little mistakes and imperfections. That's what's so great about them.

                                                                            People are always looking for reasons to consider others' opinions less valuable. That's what's so awful about them.

                                                                            6 Replies
                                                                            1. re: DeppityDawg
                                                                              c oliver Oct 9, 2009 01:41 PM

                                                                              I don't believe that's the breakdown of the word "alcohol" (isn't it based on alkyls or something?). I used to feed my horses alfalfa but I don't know its English origin. But I would say that something that has changed, if these have, over hundreds of years is quite a bit different than saying "with au jus." I wouldn't consider someone's opinion less valuable but it would be a tad fingernail-on-the-blackboard-ish.

                                                                              1. re: c oliver
                                                                                j
                                                                                jumpingmonk Oct 9, 2009 05:46 PM

                                                                                It and alfalfa are actually from arabic. I think the al- prefix mes best or best of. Alfalfa come from al-fash-fash which basically means "best of fodders (things you feed animals, like horses)". Alcohol comes from al-kohl "best of kohls" (an black arseinide of antimony, one popular as an eye makeup. and orginaly simply meant a distillate done with heat so tecnically alchol as we undersantd it isnt reduntant it's insufficent (back when it was still a new idea it often was called "alcohol of wine")

                                                                                1. re: jumpingmonk
                                                                                  Veggo Oct 9, 2009 06:00 PM

                                                                                  I guess not all "al"s share the same etymology. Al Capone liked his alcohol neat and his pasta al dente.

                                                                                  1. re: Veggo
                                                                                    eclecticsynergy Feb 10, 2013 11:18 PM

                                                                                    Then there was Al Coholic and his band, the DTs.

                                                                                  2. re: jumpingmonk
                                                                                    t
                                                                                    tandooritaco May 20, 2013 11:56 AM

                                                                                    Al- or ul- in Arabic is just "the". You are right about the etymological relation between "alcohol" and "kohl" as in eyeliner, though.

                                                                                2. re: DeppityDawg
                                                                                  d
                                                                                  danieljdwyer Oct 13, 2009 08:57 PM

                                                                                  "Al" is the definite article in Arabic. It is not, however, redundant to say "the alcohol", because the Arabic word is "al-kuhl". "Alcohol" is an English word. Once a word or term is assimilated to a language, it has a distinct meaning within that language, and functions by the grammatical rules of that language.

                                                                                3. hannaone Oct 9, 2009 01:49 PM

                                                                                  Blame it on the great number of places that serve dishes "...with au jus sauce".

                                                                                  2 Replies
                                                                                  1. re: hannaone
                                                                                    d
                                                                                    DeppityDawg Oct 9, 2009 01:59 PM

                                                                                    But that would actually be correct (sort of), if they made the sauce with the jus.

                                                                                    1. re: DeppityDawg
                                                                                      c oliver Oct 9, 2009 02:03 PM

                                                                                      Good point, DD :)

                                                                                  2. scuzzo Oct 9, 2009 02:07 PM

                                                                                    You're not snarky! I'm glad to learn and welcome it.

                                                                                    Saying "cheese with fish is forbidden" is snarky and makes me immediately want to dust my salmon with parmesan! Saying "from my experience, cheese interferes with the flavor is fish", makes me think twice, and you have my attention.

                                                                                    Lots of grammatical errors go mainstream, not making them right, like referring to "the 80's" instead of "the 80s". Because something is widely accepted never makes it right. At one point it was widely accepted that the world was flat.

                                                                                    26 Replies
                                                                                    1. re: scuzzo
                                                                                      c oliver Oct 9, 2009 02:11 PM

                                                                                      It's how we learn,isn't it? I didn't know about fish and cheese until a few years to. And once I did, I agreed.

                                                                                      1. re: c oliver
                                                                                        scuzzo Oct 9, 2009 02:16 PM

                                                                                        I do love to learn...which is why I come here! I so appreciate the many smart, kind and helpful people who hang out here.

                                                                                        1. re: c oliver
                                                                                          s
                                                                                          sandylc Dec 20, 2011 06:16 PM

                                                                                          Mornay Sauce on salmon. An exception to every rule.

                                                                                          1. re: sandylc
                                                                                            pikawicca Dec 20, 2011 07:36 PM

                                                                                            Really? Where have you seen this? Seems very strange to me. Why would you put a rich sauce on a rich fish?

                                                                                            1. re: pikawicca
                                                                                              s
                                                                                              sandylc Dec 20, 2011 07:54 PM

                                                                                              Eighties. You're right; very rich. But delicious. Indulgence from an indulgent era.

                                                                                              1. re: sandylc
                                                                                                u
                                                                                                Uncle Yabai Jan 28, 2013 03:44 AM

                                                                                                If it were the eighties, we'd be getting De Mornay sauce. Definitely delicious and indulgent. Tom Cruise can vouch for that.

                                                                                                1. re: Uncle Yabai
                                                                                                  eclecticsynergy Feb 10, 2013 11:20 PM

                                                                                                  A saucy wench indeed, that one.

                                                                                            2. re: sandylc
                                                                                              s
                                                                                              smartie Jan 3, 2012 07:55 PM

                                                                                              sole mornay too, and sole florentine with spinach and a mornay sauce

                                                                                          2. re: scuzzo
                                                                                            Paulustrious Oct 10, 2009 02:48 AM

                                                                                            <<Because something is widely accepted never makes it right.>>

                                                                                            Actually it does it make it right. The OED will take in new meanings of existing words wih no problem. Speech patterns change with each generation and with absorption of new cultural values. Your use of commas in the previous sentence is a move in English to represent pauses in speech as opposed to a purely grammatic positioning - a move which I approve of. (cf: a move of which I approve). The grating we all feel is when a new expression seems an uneducated and unnecessary nouveau addition, adoption or amendment to the gemütlich status quo of our language.

                                                                                            Incidentally, throughout history most reasonably advanced civilisations thought the world.

                                                                                            We willingly accept certain phrases such as radar detection, laser radiation or ac current and they are not incorrect. The purpose of language is ultimately to convey information. It should not be held on a pedestal of inviolability, else we would all still be speaking Chaucerian English or some proto-Sumerian language.

                                                                                            And of course we should mix languages. One of the huge strengths of English is / was its ability to cherry pick from other languages.

                                                                                            1. re: Paulustrious
                                                                                              c oliver Oct 10, 2009 04:47 AM

                                                                                              But wouldn't you agree that "with au jus" is always going to be wrong?

                                                                                              1. re: c oliver
                                                                                                Paulustrious Oct 10, 2009 05:53 AM

                                                                                                I think it's because you speak some (maybe a lot) of French. For all I know Bahn Mi may mean 'with bread' and I would be perfectly happy to say with "bahn mi sandwiches".

                                                                                                But you are right, 'with au jus' grates on me too. It doesn't exist in England, and I am yet to see it in Canada.

                                                                                                I just realised I missed a word out of my previous reply. It should have read:

                                                                                                <throughout history most reasonably advanced civilisations thought the world round - with occasional doctrinal flatitudes. >

                                                                                                1. re: Paulustrious
                                                                                                  d
                                                                                                  DeppityDawg Oct 10, 2009 06:07 AM

                                                                                                  That's a really long word.

                                                                                                2. re: c oliver
                                                                                                  a
                                                                                                  Agent Orange Oct 13, 2009 08:36 PM

                                                                                                  Not if "au jus" comes to mean "meat drippings" in English. Like Paulustrious said, knowing a bit of French (in this case) allows one to see an obvious error. I am a bit of an English grammar freak, and that also extends to French and Spanish. But given even the slightest chance, I would ignorantly butcher hundreds of foreign languages.

                                                                                                3. re: Paulustrious
                                                                                                  shaogo Oct 10, 2009 07:38 AM

                                                                                                  Re: "Because something is widely accepted never makes it right."

                                                                                                  I concur with Paulustrious. In a recent column regarding deceased NY Times word maven William Safire, they reiterated that Safire, for all his "usage policing," admitted that English is a living language and that words tend to begin to mean what people using them *intend* them to mean.

                                                                                                  "with au jus" is, indeed, wrong, however, any way you slice it. (Here I'm anticipating a query from the delightful c oliver)

                                                                                                  -- addenda: I just read farther down the thread. alanbarnes can be *my* William Safire anytime!

                                                                                                4. re: scuzzo
                                                                                                  thew Oct 10, 2009 01:10 PM

                                                                                                  in language widely accepted indeed does eventually make it right.

                                                                                                  to go back to my oft stated examples - if you tell me you have a terrific meal, do you mean it induced terror in you? Do you think less of someone who says sunrise, even though it isn;t the sun moving?

                                                                                                  1. re: thew
                                                                                                    iluvtennis Oct 10, 2009 04:22 PM

                                                                                                    Good points.

                                                                                                  2. re: scuzzo
                                                                                                    rockandroller1 Oct 14, 2009 09:28 AM

                                                                                                    But what about the Filet O' Fish? :)

                                                                                                    1. re: rockandroller1
                                                                                                      paulj Oct 14, 2009 09:40 AM

                                                                                                      That's to distinguish it from their filet de bœuf sandwich.

                                                                                                      1. re: paulj
                                                                                                        johnb Oct 19, 2009 05:46 PM

                                                                                                        But does the filet de bœuf sandwich come with aujus sauce?

                                                                                                        1. re: johnb
                                                                                                          jfood Oct 19, 2009 05:59 PM

                                                                                                          but you can get the filet sandwich with or without the bone

                                                                                                      2. re: rockandroller1
                                                                                                        eclecticsynergy Feb 10, 2013 11:27 PM

                                                                                                        Could O' been Filet Au Fish... with or without the bun, Au Du Bon- or would that have to be more about birds? He ate the models for nearly all of his famous paintings, you know.

                                                                                                        1. re: eclecticsynergy
                                                                                                          m
                                                                                                          mwhitmore Feb 19, 2013 11:05 AM

                                                                                                          Not at McDonalds. Filet *of* fish must be an anatomical subsection of a whole fish. Filet O'Fish is an industrially manufactured seafood-like product.

                                                                                                          Or something.

                                                                                                          1. re: mwhitmore
                                                                                                            TroyTempest Feb 20, 2013 06:40 AM

                                                                                                            Reminds me of the "shrimp shapes" we used to get in the middle school cafeteria back in the early 70s (or is it 70's?). I wonder if there were real shrimp in them.

                                                                                                      3. re: scuzzo
                                                                                                        t
                                                                                                        therealdoctorlew Oct 19, 2009 05:10 PM

                                                                                                        Actually, in the very standard pedantic English punctuation rules, the plural of a symbol or abbreviation or a number as a thing does indeed take an apostrophe. "80's" is correct.

                                                                                                        1. re: scuzzo
                                                                                                          EWSflash Nov 14, 2009 09:29 AM

                                                                                                          scuzzo, I'm pretty sure that if you were determined to use apostrophes when saying
                                                                                                          "the 80's" instead of "the 80s"
                                                                                                          you could say "the '80s", since you are truncating the 1980s.

                                                                                                          There's a site called toothpastefordinner.com that has some pretty great cartoons. One is a guy hawking apostrophes. He's shouting "Apostrophes, get your apostrophes! Use 'em for plurals, get your apostrophes here..."

                                                                                                          1. re: scuzzo
                                                                                                            s
                                                                                                            Sal Vanilla Jan 26, 2013 08:44 PM

                                                                                                            Wait. It isn't flat? I thought boats just fell off the side of the earth. Lordy the things I learn on Chow.

                                                                                                            I agree it is in the telling that makes the snark.

                                                                                                            And

                                                                                                            You've got mail. Double grr.

                                                                                                          2. chowser Oct 9, 2009 02:34 PM

                                                                                                            I haven't had a french dip in over 15 years but this thread is making me crave one. Here's an interesting discussion on improperly used terms, including au jus. Pass me an apple pie with a la mode...

                                                                                                            http://www.takeourword.com/TOW146/pag...

                                                                                                            1 Reply
                                                                                                            1. re: chowser
                                                                                                              c
                                                                                                              cinnamon girl Oct 9, 2009 02:47 PM

                                                                                                              lol . . . and how did a la mode ever come to mean ice cream anyway?

                                                                                                            2. scubadoo97 Oct 9, 2009 04:26 PM

                                                                                                              Yeah I don't see a problem. Don't they sell that au jus sauce in a bottle. So what's the problem? hehe

                                                                                                              Give me some of that meat loaf with that there au jus sauce. Anything wrong with that? And throw on some of that brushetta stuff too.

                                                                                                              1. m
                                                                                                                modthyrth Oct 9, 2009 11:37 PM

                                                                                                                My best friend declared that she was my best friend one night at a restaurant, when I had ordered prime rib "with au jus." When my plate came, there was no jus, and I exclaimed, "Hey, my prime rib didn't come with with with juice!" My friend declared her undying affection for me then and there.

                                                                                                                1. paulj Oct 10, 2009 11:51 AM

                                                                                                                  Does this (and the other examples) qualify as an idiom, a phrase that is best understood through common usage, as opposed to the literal meaning of its pieces?

                                                                                                                  'au jus' in French is a prepositional phrase, but 'au' is not an English preposition.

                                                                                                                  Or another way to look at it, 'au jus' has entered the English language as a noun, meaning effect, 'an unthickened gravy', as opposed to an adjective. So English speakers who are not thinking in terms of its French roots, feel a need to add the 'with'. I think the example of the Arabic 'al' is quite relevant. Quite often linguistic details are lost (changed) when a word or phrase is transferred from one language to another.

                                                                                                                  The English is language is quite forgiving when borrowing words. For exaple, we don't insist on adding a 'o' or 'a' gender marker on every word. But that borrowing can also be sloppy.

                                                                                                                  23 Replies
                                                                                                                  1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                    chowser Oct 10, 2009 12:48 PM

                                                                                                                    Technically, "au jus" is an adjective. In French, that follows the verb but in English, it precedes it so we should have au jus roast beef, not roast beef au jus. Getting too technical makes it sound stupid pretty.

                                                                                                                    As for borrowing "o" or "a" endings, we do, if the word is Italian. Pizza, not pizzo or pizz. And we don't do it to every word because not every word is Italian based. English tends to borrow the word as is but use its own grammatical structure eg if you want to make pizza plural, we wouldn't follow Italian grammar and call it pizze. Given how amalgamated English is, we'd have to be fluent in too many languages to conjugate every word in its original language.

                                                                                                                    1. re: chowser
                                                                                                                      paulj Oct 10, 2009 01:26 PM

                                                                                                                      In 'beef au jus', is 'au jus' modifying beef, or beef modifying 'au jus'?

                                                                                                                      Or is that like trying to pick apart 'beef wellington'?

                                                                                                                      1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                        c oliver Oct 10, 2009 01:33 PM

                                                                                                                        Oh, cool, this is REALLY getting to be fun!!!

                                                                                                                        1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                          chowser Oct 10, 2009 03:27 PM

                                                                                                                          LOL, there are restaurants that serve more au jus thanbeef. Bourgignon boeuf?

                                                                                                                          1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                            Parigi Oct 10, 2009 04:33 PM

                                                                                                                            beef modifying 'au jus'?
                                                                                                                            That'd be jus au beef, duh !

                                                                                                                            1. re: Parigi
                                                                                                                              paulj Oct 10, 2009 07:10 PM

                                                                                                                              In English, the modifier usually is placed before the noun. For example, 'beef steak'. An English speaker who does not know French, could very well take 'au jus' as the noun, and beef as the adjective. Yes, I know 'au jus' is written as two words, but it is usually pronounced as a two syllable word.

                                                                                                                              1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                Parigi Jan 3, 2012 02:19 AM

                                                                                                                                "usually pronounced as a two syllable word"

                                                                                                                                Usually? The way "on the cob" is pronounced as a 3 syllable word, - usually, - modifying corn? How does one distinguish the pronunciation of 2 words with one syllable each, and one 2-syllable word, usually? And so White House is - usually - pronounced as a two-syllable word? Then what isn't?

                                                                                                                                1. re: Parigi
                                                                                                                                  paulj Jan 3, 2012 12:24 PM

                                                                                                                                  Those are all phrases. They may be spoken with the same rapidity as a word, but they are clearly composed of several words. 'on the cob', could easily be changed to 'in the cob', 'on the corn', changing the meaning, but not the syntactic structure of the phrase.

                                                                                                                                  I couldn't modify 'au jus' without delving into French.

                                                                                                                                  1. re: Parigi
                                                                                                                                    pikawicca Jan 17, 2013 12:52 PM

                                                                                                                                    In a two-syllable word, one syllable is stressed and the other isn't. With two one-syllable words (like au jus), each word is stressed equally.

                                                                                                                              2. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                s
                                                                                                                                sandylc Dec 20, 2011 06:34 PM

                                                                                                                                French class. 1975. "Au jus" translates to "with the jus". One meaning for "au" is "with the". Done.

                                                                                                                                1. re: sandylc
                                                                                                                                  BobB Dec 21, 2011 06:35 AM

                                                                                                                                  Yup. Right up there with "the hoi polloi." Hoi polloi means "the people" so the hoi polloi is the the people.

                                                                                                                                  1. re: BobB
                                                                                                                                    paulj Dec 21, 2011 08:59 AM

                                                                                                                                    http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/18...
                                                                                                                                    points out that the earliest English use, from 1668, includes the extra 'the':

                                                                                                                                    "If by the people you understand the multitude, the οἱ πολλοί"

                                                                                                                                    And the use of the Arabic 'al' article has already been mentioned

                                                                                                                                    1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                      BobB Dec 21, 2011 09:14 AM

                                                                                                                                      That's one point of view, and one with which I happen to disagree. Call me pedantic if you must, you won't be the first.

                                                                                                                                      I also draw a distinction between Arabic words that have been adopted into the language as English with "al" appended (e.g., alcohol, algebra) vs compound phrases such as Al Jazeera or Al Qaida (not to mention al dente). Hoi polloi to my ear falls into the latter category. But feel free to use "the" with it if it sounds better to you.

                                                                                                                                  2. re: sandylc
                                                                                                                                    Parigi Jan 3, 2012 02:21 AM

                                                                                                                                    It really means "in its own juice". after all, the juice doesn't come from somewhere else and is added to the meat. :-)

                                                                                                                                    1. re: Parigi
                                                                                                                                      s
                                                                                                                                      sandylc Jan 3, 2012 12:08 PM

                                                                                                                                      It translates to "with the jus". Really.

                                                                                                                                      1. re: sandylc
                                                                                                                                        linguafood Jan 3, 2012 12:21 PM

                                                                                                                                        Wouldn't that be "avec jus"?

                                                                                                                                        1. re: linguafood
                                                                                                                                          s
                                                                                                                                          sandylc Jan 3, 2012 02:00 PM

                                                                                                                                          I think avec is "with". "Au" is "with THE". Again, old high school French, but a VERY picky teacher!

                                                                                                                                          1. re: sandylc
                                                                                                                                            j
                                                                                                                                            jumpingmonk Jan 3, 2012 04:56 PM

                                                                                                                                            Then wouldn't "au naturale" mean with the nature or "with the natural state" or can "au" aslo mean "IN the"

                                                                                                                                            1. re: jumpingmonk
                                                                                                                                              d
                                                                                                                                              DeppityDawg Jan 3, 2012 05:59 PM

                                                                                                                                              It's "au naturel", and that's a different construction in French ("naturel" is an adjective, while "jus" is a noun).

                                                                                                                                              1. re: DeppityDawg
                                                                                                                                                s
                                                                                                                                                sandylc Jan 3, 2012 07:16 PM

                                                                                                                                                Yeah, "au" has several literal meanings; can't remember what they all are. A multi-purpose word. Something like "to the" "at the" "with the", etc.

                                                                                                                                2. re: chowser
                                                                                                                                  l
                                                                                                                                  lagatta Feb 19, 2013 03:22 PM

                                                                                                                                  "Pizzo" has a very different meaning! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pizzo_%2...

                                                                                                                                  Though I confess I flinch when I hear "a panini" (or "un panini", though it is done less in French).

                                                                                                                                3. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                  Parigi Dec 21, 2011 07:16 AM

                                                                                                                                  "'Au jus" may be wrongly used by some English-speakers as a noun, but not by all.
                                                                                                                                  In Antwerp a waiter assured me that "everyone around here" understood that "wok" means food that is sautéed, hence the resto's menu offering different woks: beef wok, chicken wok, etc. I told him I was from the country that invented the wok and thought the usage was comical. He insisted that everyone in Antwerp understood the word differently.
                                                                                                                                  So I ordered a glass. He asked: a glass of what? I told him it was understood in MY country.

                                                                                                                                  And can one talk about "forgiving" when one is borrowing? In fact is France the one who should be forgiven for "au jus"?

                                                                                                                                  1. re: Parigi
                                                                                                                                    paulj Dec 21, 2011 09:01 AM

                                                                                                                                    Re. 'forgiving' - would 'non-pedantic' be a better word?

                                                                                                                                4. Parigi Oct 10, 2009 01:21 PM

                                                                                                                                  It's like chili con carne with (or is it without) meat.

                                                                                                                                  11 Replies
                                                                                                                                  1. re: Parigi
                                                                                                                                    cookie monster Oct 10, 2009 01:46 PM

                                                                                                                                    Or a chai tea latte - mixing three languages to get tea with milk and spices tea with hot milk.

                                                                                                                                    1. re: cookie monster
                                                                                                                                      thew Oct 10, 2009 03:51 PM

                                                                                                                                      especially as chai just means tea anyway

                                                                                                                                      1. re: thew
                                                                                                                                        paulj Dec 20, 2011 07:04 PM

                                                                                                                                        Stimulated by the 'tisane' complaint below I looked up 'tea'. Turns out there is 1 Chinese character, but two quite different words (depending on the Chinese language). Some other languages borrowed the 'te' word, others the 'chai' word. English took 'tea', but in recent years as adopted the Indian 'chai' to mean an Indian style spiced tea (masala chai), with milk and spices. So in American English, 'chai' is not synonymous with 'tea'; it goes back to the same Chinese character, but the path into English has been different.

                                                                                                                                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea#The_...

                                                                                                                                        Etymology gives interesting information on a word, but it is seldom sufficient to define it, or to explain its contemporary usage.

                                                                                                                                        1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                          Parigi Dec 21, 2011 04:08 AM

                                                                                                                                          "Turns out there is 1 Chinese character, but two quite different words (depending on the Chinese language). "

                                                                                                                                          Chai - 茶 - is indeed a regional pronunciation of "tea", a region in China that exports tea, in fact. In standard (Mandarin) pronunciation and also in Cantonese, it is "cha".
                                                                                                                                          I would not call them different words.

                                                                                                                                          1. re: Parigi
                                                                                                                                            paulj Dec 21, 2011 06:12 AM

                                                                                                                                            But the article claims that in some dialects the pronunciation is closer to the 'te' that many European languages (including English) adopted.

                                                                                                                                            1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                              Parigi Dec 21, 2011 07:17 AM

                                                                                                                                              Well yes China has more than 2 dialects. :-)
                                                                                                                                              While té is used to mean tea in some European countries, Chai is the word used to mean tea not only in India but also in Greece and Turkey, and possibly many other other countires on or near the Silk Route.

                                                                                                                                              "Turns out there is 1 Chinese character, but two quite different words (depending on the Chinese language). "

                                                                                                                                              Té, Chai, Cha are different ways of pronouncing the same word "茶". They are not different words.

                                                                                                                                              1. re: Parigi
                                                                                                                                                paulj Dec 21, 2011 08:54 AM

                                                                                                                                                I was using 'different words' in the sense of a 'fairly large difference in pronunciation'. That of course is a fuzzy use, especially in a language like Chinese where a wide range of spoken dialects are united by one non-phonetic written language.

                                                                                                                                                1. re: Parigi
                                                                                                                                                  paulj Dec 21, 2011 02:24 PM

                                                                                                                                                  [In the late 17th c] " Served primarily to men, it was first called Cha, from the Cantonese slang for tea. The name changed later to Tay, or Tee, when the British trading post moved from Canton to Amoy, where the word for tea is T'e (Ukers 1935: 23)."
                                                                                                                                                  http://www.panix.com/~kendra/tea/tea_...

                                                                                                                                                  1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                    Parigi Dec 21, 2011 02:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                    Cha is not slang. It is the actual pronunciation for the word 茶. It is pronounced by the Fukienese (Amoy region) as something like té. The same character, pronounced by the Xijiang people in the north, becomes chai. No matter how the English transcription for the character changed, the character in Chinese has never changed. If Hu Jintao or IM Pei or Zhang Yimou offers you a cup of the stuff today, he will call it cha, and there's nothing slangy about it.

                                                                                                                                                    1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                      j
                                                                                                                                                      jumpingmonk Dec 21, 2011 02:41 PM

                                                                                                                                                      Actualy I head that the "Te" pronociation is the older of the two. in the very early days of China (when tea was 1. still a bit of a novelty and 2. still made into bricks before it was ground up to be used) the character was pronuced someting like "t'u". I dont think the "t'cha" or "cha" pronociation became common until around the Ming dynasty (or maybe it was the T'ang), when tea began to become a mainstream and everyday commodity in China

                                                                                                                                                      1. re: jumpingmonk
                                                                                                                                                        Parigi Dec 21, 2011 03:41 PM

                                                                                                                                                        My reply disappeared.
                                                                                                                                                        A linguistics prof liked to use the example of cha 茶 as a word that underwent the least historic evolution, and it sounds the same between Mandarin and Cantonese. His theory was that 1000 to 200 years ago, the dialect spoken in Chang An (capital for most of that time) was closer to modern Cantonese than modern Mandarin. Another hint is that all the Tang poems are better rhymed in Cantonese than in Mandarin.
                                                                                                                                                        As for me, I dunno. None of us were around then, and there is no recording. :-)

                                                                                                                                      2. Veggo Oct 10, 2009 03:55 PM

                                                                                                                                        Enlighten me. What do I say if I don't want the f**king juice?

                                                                                                                                        40 Replies
                                                                                                                                        1. re: Veggo
                                                                                                                                          c oliver Oct 10, 2009 03:57 PM

                                                                                                                                          I think you say "with no f**king au jus."

                                                                                                                                          1. re: c oliver
                                                                                                                                            r
                                                                                                                                            RobinJ Oct 10, 2009 04:21 PM

                                                                                                                                            ...or you could be a helluva snob, order prime rib sans jus, and confuse your server no end.

                                                                                                                                            Salsa sauce and queso cheese: Those phrases bother me, but I recognize the people don't know what they are saying.

                                                                                                                                            1. re: RobinJ
                                                                                                                                              c oliver Oct 10, 2009 04:25 PM

                                                                                                                                              Or even brie cheese. Or is there some other food that's brie?

                                                                                                                                              1. re: c oliver
                                                                                                                                                Paulustrious Oct 11, 2009 06:40 AM

                                                                                                                                                Salsbrie steak.
                                                                                                                                                Bluebrie pie.
                                                                                                                                                Brieoche

                                                                                                                                                1. re: Paulustrious
                                                                                                                                                  c oliver Oct 11, 2009 08:26 AM

                                                                                                                                                  Hohoho

                                                                                                                                                2. re: c oliver
                                                                                                                                                  m
                                                                                                                                                  mwhitmore Feb 19, 2013 11:10 AM

                                                                                                                                                  Not food, but the milk comes from Brie cattle, which are herded by the Brie dog---Briard.

                                                                                                                                                3. re: RobinJ
                                                                                                                                                  Veggo Oct 10, 2009 04:28 PM

                                                                                                                                                  And for dessert I'll order creme brulee sans foie gras and really trick 'em.

                                                                                                                                                  1. re: Veggo
                                                                                                                                                    f
                                                                                                                                                    FrankD Oct 10, 2009 06:53 PM

                                                                                                                                                    I'm willing to bet you've just given Martin Picard at "Au Pied du Cochon" in Montreal an idea....

                                                                                                                                                    1. re: FrankD
                                                                                                                                                      r
                                                                                                                                                      rcianci Oct 25, 2009 06:18 PM

                                                                                                                                                      Foie gras creme brulee is more common in Montreal than you think. Oddly enough Martin Picard does not serve it.

                                                                                                                                                      1. re: rcianci
                                                                                                                                                        f
                                                                                                                                                        FrankD Oct 26, 2009 04:44 AM

                                                                                                                                                        Geez, I need to get out more!

                                                                                                                                                  2. re: RobinJ
                                                                                                                                                    mcsheridan Oct 11, 2009 06:41 AM

                                                                                                                                                    On the flip side, the current Velveeta commercial bothers me no end. Man runs into a beauty parlor begging: "Queso...I need queso! Please!" He doesn't mean "I need cheese"; what he means is "I need Chili con queso." So a woman with foil hair dye strips on her head (perhaps she's his wife; we're never quite sure) jumps out of her chair, runs into the kitchen in back (huh?) and from a pantry stocked with nothing else but Velveeta boxes and Rotel cans, takes one of each. She then cubes up the Velveeta, opens a can of Rotel Diced Tomatoes and Green Chiles, mixes them in a bowl and then heats them up in the microwave. We then see her dipping a taco chip into it and feeding this man who, satisfied, runs out of the shop (with the bowl in hand, mind you.)

                                                                                                                                                    The tag line: Rotel and Velveeta: together, they make queso.
                                                                                                                                                    NO, they make Chili con queso.

                                                                                                                                                    1. re: mcsheridan
                                                                                                                                                      Paulustrious Oct 11, 2009 06:45 AM

                                                                                                                                                      <<The tag line: Rotel and Velveeta: together, they make queso.
                                                                                                                                                      NO, they make Chili con queso.>>

                                                                                                                                                      Sorry - I'm going to have to disagree with that. I'm not quite sure what they make. It's a long time since I did any chemical engineering.

                                                                                                                                                      1. re: Paulustrious
                                                                                                                                                        mcsheridan Oct 11, 2009 06:47 AM

                                                                                                                                                        Point well taken. They (and I) used the term "queso" too loosely when considering this Kraft 'food product'. I was only quibbling with the dropped words and the abuse of language, not the authenticity of the item.

                                                                                                                                                        1. re: mcsheridan
                                                                                                                                                          s
                                                                                                                                                          small h Oct 11, 2009 07:50 AM

                                                                                                                                                          <They (and I) used the term "queso" too loosely when considering this Kraft 'food product'.>

                                                                                                                                                          You're not the first. This caused me no end of confusion a couple of years ago.

                                                                                                                                                          http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/3817...

                                                                                                                                                      2. re: mcsheridan
                                                                                                                                                        paulj Oct 11, 2009 08:36 AM

                                                                                                                                                        Context, context. Yes if you mention 'queso' in a Spanish speaking country, they understand it to be 'cheese'. But what if you ask for it in a TexMex restaurant? Will the waitress as 'Do you mean 'Chile con Queso' or plain Queso'?

                                                                                                                                                        From Wiki:
                                                                                                                                                        "Chile con queso (Spanish for "chile with cheese"), usually known simply as queso, is an appetizer that is served in Tex-Mex restaurants....
                                                                                                                                                        Chile con queso is called "queso" by Texans. It should not be confused with "cheese dip," an inaccurate colloquialism used by people unfamiliar with Tex-Mex cuisine."

                                                                                                                                                        How about chili? Should we insist that everyone return to 'chile con carne'? or Carne de res con chiles rojo al estilo Texas'?

                                                                                                                                                        By the way, is it Chile con queso, or Chili con queso? Chili, with the 'i', often is reserved to the TexMex meat stew, not just anything with chile peppers in it.

                                                                                                                                                        Is 'chile pepper' a redundancy?

                                                                                                                                                        1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                          r
                                                                                                                                                          RobinJ Feb 19, 2013 04:28 PM

                                                                                                                                                          "Queso" meaning "chile con queso" seems to be limited to Texas (so far), although with the Velveeta commercial the shorthand term will probably spread.

                                                                                                                                                          A Texan new to Colorado asked our Yelp board where to find queso. The response was a universal "huh?"

                                                                                                                                                          The questioner was quite miffed that we didn't know what queso is. We felt the same way about him; queso to us is cheese. We have chile con queso here, and that's what we call it. So far.

                                                                                                                                                          1. re: RobinJ
                                                                                                                                                            s
                                                                                                                                                            small h Feb 19, 2013 06:10 PM

                                                                                                                                                            Same thing happened on the Manhattan board. I was terribly confused, but luckily other thread participants were more worldly than me. And now "the 'chili con' is implied" is a phrase I try to work into casual conversation whenever possible (which is not very often, sadly).

                                                                                                                                                            http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/381720

                                                                                                                                                            1. re: small h
                                                                                                                                                              TroyTempest Feb 20, 2013 06:42 AM

                                                                                                                                                              chili and chile are 2 different things. One is a pepper, and the other, well, is chili.

                                                                                                                                                        2. re: mcsheridan
                                                                                                                                                          paulj Oct 11, 2009 08:50 AM

                                                                                                                                                          If we are going to insist on an accurate Spanish description, how about 'queso ameriicano con tomates y chiles'? Isn't cheese (or cheese product) the dominant ingredient? It's not 'peppers with a bit a cheese'.

                                                                                                                                                          1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                            c oliver Oct 11, 2009 09:30 AM

                                                                                                                                                            I think I'll stick with chorizo fundido :)

                                                                                                                                                            1. re: c oliver
                                                                                                                                                              paulj Oct 11, 2009 09:36 AM

                                                                                                                                                              What's that, molten sausage? :)

                                                                                                                                                              'hierro fundido' gets a lot of attention on Chow, especially under cookware. It means 'cast iron'.

                                                                                                                                                              1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                c oliver Oct 11, 2009 09:55 AM

                                                                                                                                                                There's a place we've been going to in a small town in Southern Oregon. All Mexican-Americans own it andwork there. They may their own chorizo, mix it cheese, put into a cazuela and heat til bubbling. We get it with a mixture of vegetables that have been grilled and whole jalapenos that are dropped in to hot oil til all brown and bumpy. So good.

                                                                                                                                                                1. re: c oliver
                                                                                                                                                                  j
                                                                                                                                                                  just_M Oct 12, 2009 05:12 PM

                                                                                                                                                                  Care to share where? I live in Southern Oregon and would love a go to. Thanks.

                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: just_M
                                                                                                                                                                    c oliver Oct 13, 2009 08:37 PM

                                                                                                                                                                    It's in Grants Pass on H between 6th and 7th. Taqueria. They probably also serve it at their resto, Si Casa Flores on the Rogue Parkway. We love it especially with a big ole Margarita.

                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: c oliver
                                                                                                                                                                      j
                                                                                                                                                                      just_M Oct 14, 2009 08:42 AM

                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks, it sounds so good I can't wait for our next trip Medford way!

                                                                                                                                                          2. re: mcsheridan
                                                                                                                                                            alanbarnes Oct 11, 2009 09:43 AM

                                                                                                                                                            Not sayin' it's right, but...

                                                                                                                                                            At Tex-mex places in Austin if you order "queso" in a restaurant you'll get something resembling the stuff being advertised on the commercial. If you order "chile con queso" you're likely to get it with a layer of spiced ground beef (aka "chili meat") on top. Course then there's Bob Armstrong dip, which adds a layer of guacamole. They're all good food for drunken students.

                                                                                                                                                            1. re: mcsheridan
                                                                                                                                                              e
                                                                                                                                                              Ellen Oct 26, 2009 06:34 PM

                                                                                                                                                              Oh my God I used to love that stuff in college. One of the first things I learned to cook, although that's an oxymoron rather than a redundancy.

                                                                                                                                                              1. re: mcsheridan
                                                                                                                                                                l
                                                                                                                                                                lagatta Feb 19, 2013 03:30 PM

                                                                                                                                                                We always get visitors to Québec asking at board 22 where they can get "foie".

                                                                                                                                                                Of course in French, "foie" simply refers to liver, whether your own or that of some other creature.

                                                                                                                                                              2. re: RobinJ
                                                                                                                                                                EWSflash Nov 14, 2009 09:37 AM

                                                                                                                                                                I'll have a quesadilla without cheese, please.

                                                                                                                                                                1. re: EWSflash
                                                                                                                                                                  chowser Nov 14, 2009 11:04 AM

                                                                                                                                                                  With queso cheese on the side?

                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: EWSflash
                                                                                                                                                                    paulj Nov 14, 2009 12:58 PM

                                                                                                                                                                    Yes there is 'queso' (cheese) in the word 'quesadilla', but that does not mean it is a required part of the filling. Particularly in central and southern Mexico, quesadillas are made with freshed rolled disks of (corn) masa. It is easy to fine authentic recipes (e.g. from Kennedy or Bayless) for fillings that do not include any cheese. Crumbled queso fresco may be sprinkled over the top (after cooking).

                                                                                                                                                                    This is a case where a little knowledge of source language is actually misleading.

                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                      u
                                                                                                                                                                      Uncle Yabai Jan 28, 2013 03:48 AM

                                                                                                                                                                      Right. In Mexico City you can find "quesadillas" which don't have any cheese in them. Everybody else in Mexico calls them "quesadillas sin queso" and finds the concept of a cheese-less quesadilla ridiculous and symptomatic of the Mexico City dwellers, who are not held in high regard.

                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: EWSflash
                                                                                                                                                                      paulj Nov 14, 2009 01:07 PM

                                                                                                                                                                      Is that like asking for a hamburger without the smoked pork?

                                                                                                                                                                2. re: Veggo
                                                                                                                                                                  Parigi Oct 10, 2009 04:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                                  You don't want f**king juice?
                                                                                                                                                                  Everyone knows this one. You say mit-out au jus.

                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: Parigi
                                                                                                                                                                    Veggo Oct 10, 2009 04:53 PM

                                                                                                                                                                    Not every server should be expected to know german, french, and english.
                                                                                                                                                                    I think thew nailed it with a bit of universal language.

                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: Parigi
                                                                                                                                                                      Paulustrious Oct 11, 2009 06:25 AM

                                                                                                                                                                      Out should be spelled uit, then we can go Dutch together.

                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: Veggo
                                                                                                                                                                      eclecticsynergy Feb 10, 2013 11:51 PM

                                                                                                                                                                      You don't ant the f**king juice, you soak it up with this fried rice!

                                                                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: eclecticsynergy
                                                                                                                                                                        s
                                                                                                                                                                        sandylc Feb 11, 2013 11:01 AM

                                                                                                                                                                        I have seen Asian restaurants named "Fu King".

                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: sandylc
                                                                                                                                                                          r
                                                                                                                                                                          RobinJ Feb 11, 2013 11:59 AM

                                                                                                                                                                          The popular Vietnamese soup pho is pronounced "fuh." Hence, embarrassing restaurant names:

                                                                                                                                                                          Pho King

                                                                                                                                                                          Pho Kim Long

                                                                                                                                                                          I would mispronounce these if taking a cab.

                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: RobinJ
                                                                                                                                                                            s
                                                                                                                                                                            sandylc Feb 11, 2013 12:26 PM

                                                                                                                                                                            Yikes good point.

                                                                                                                                                                            Foe King it is.

                                                                                                                                                                    3. Withnail42 Oct 11, 2009 05:56 AM

                                                                                                                                                                      I've noticed and chuckled at that usage myself.

                                                                                                                                                                      1. cuccubear Oct 13, 2009 10:24 AM

                                                                                                                                                                        The usage is a tautology, the needless repetition of something in different words, as in: widow woman. The word widow implies female, so the following word “woman” is unnecessary. “With au jus” is just as redundant.

                                                                                                                                                                        Clearly the folks who use “with au jus” are not familiar with the French language, and I can understand that. I hear many people who say “No problemo” trying to espeaka de Spanish, but the word is “problema”. I used to correct people, but then figured “What the hell” and let it go. I found it was too boorish of me to correct them on such a niggling detail when they didn’t know (or were even interested in) Spanish to begin with.

                                                                                                                                                                        They same can be said in this case, although the phrase “with au jus” has produced this very entertaining thread! So I’ll keep reading as I sip my Burgundy Red or maybe a nice Chardonnay White..?

                                                                                                                                                                        10 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: cuccubear
                                                                                                                                                                          Veggo Oct 13, 2009 10:37 AM

                                                                                                                                                                          I agree. If everyone had anally exact correctness, life would lean toward boring. Our human foibles add a lot of fun!

                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: Veggo
                                                                                                                                                                            cuccubear Oct 13, 2009 11:21 AM

                                                                                                                                                                            They cer-tain-ly do! !

                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: Veggo
                                                                                                                                                                              scuzzo Oct 13, 2009 11:37 AM

                                                                                                                                                                              I really enjoy learning, but some people take the fun out of it.

                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: scuzzo
                                                                                                                                                                                kattyeyes Oct 13, 2009 07:25 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                WORD! But learning about a variety of uses for the waffle iron--among many other tips--is what restores the fun to the party. So thank you, scuzzo. Party on!

                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: kattyeyes
                                                                                                                                                                                  scuzzo Oct 13, 2009 08:33 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                  Thank you so much! Your kindness really made my day, in ways you'll never know.

                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: scuzzo
                                                                                                                                                                                    c
                                                                                                                                                                                    cinnamon girl Oct 19, 2009 09:49 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    I've cited you, by name, . . . er soubriquet, on the waffle iron - along with Greygarious. I cooked everything on that thing this summer. Someone asked me if I could still make waffles on it so I even tried that. Boring.

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: cinnamon girl
                                                                                                                                                                                      scuzzo Oct 19, 2009 10:42 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      I don't know you, but I love you! Thanks! Can't stop laughing.

                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: cuccubear
                                                                                                                                                                              j
                                                                                                                                                                              jumpingmonk Oct 13, 2009 01:28 PM

                                                                                                                                                                              Actually I'm not sure"Burgundy Red" would count as a tautology as there are white wines (and even a few roses) made within the Burgundy region.

                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: jumpingmonk
                                                                                                                                                                                cuccubear Oct 13, 2009 01:57 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                LOL, you know, I wondered about that myself, and figured someone would have something to say about it! :-)

                                                                                                                                                                                Okay, bad example...

                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: jumpingmonk
                                                                                                                                                                                  f
                                                                                                                                                                                  FrankD Oct 15, 2009 06:50 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                  Puligny-Montrachet. Pouilly-Fuisse. Macon. Meursault.

                                                                                                                                                                                  All of these are famous white wines from Burgundy.

                                                                                                                                                                              2. s
                                                                                                                                                                                susan1353 Oct 13, 2009 11:01 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                Tuna fish

                                                                                                                                                                                MLB Baseball

                                                                                                                                                                                7 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: susan1353
                                                                                                                                                                                  paulj Oct 13, 2009 11:27 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                  But if you don't add the 'fish' someone might think you are talking about a cactus fruit, or male-specific medical procedure. :) See the Wiki 'Tuna (disambiguation)' page for details.

                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                                    s
                                                                                                                                                                                    susan1353 Oct 13, 2009 02:03 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                    Yeah, don't you hate when that happens?

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                                      c
                                                                                                                                                                                      cinnamon girl Oct 13, 2009 03:22 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      OMG - I've wondered about this for years . . . why many people say tuna fish that is. Glad I logged on today.

                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: cinnamon girl
                                                                                                                                                                                        BobB Oct 15, 2009 08:58 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                        This is just speculation, but we may have gotten that from immigrants who transferred it that way from their native tongue. In German, for example, "thunfisch" is one word.

                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: BobB
                                                                                                                                                                                          d
                                                                                                                                                                                          danieljdwyer Oct 15, 2009 01:48 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                          I think you're right that it's a Germanic pattern, but it's not a recent development. I am pretty sure the use of tunafish (probably originally tunnyfisc) predates the use of tuna or tunny in English. The names of fish in Old and Middle English all seem to end in "fisc" and then later "fish", just like the names of fish in other Germanic languages often do. Salmon, for example, was originally læxfisc. The first part of each name seems to have originally described a characteristic of the fish. These have mostly been lost, however, as our modern names tend to come from Romance languages, but would initially have kept the "-fish" ending pattern when adopted in to English. Interesting, we dropped our original name for salmon, "læxfisc", close to a thousand years ago, only to have the closely related word "lox" reenter the lexicon in the last century or so.

                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: danieljdwyer
                                                                                                                                                                                            BobB Oct 15, 2009 01:52 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                            Well, that came back to us from Yiddish, which got it from the German "lachs."

                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: BobB
                                                                                                                                                                                              d
                                                                                                                                                                                              danieljdwyer Oct 15, 2009 02:03 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                              Right, and "læx", "lox", "lachs", and so forth, all ultimately trace back to the Old High German "lahs", and theoretically to a Proto-German word before that, which has been reconstructed as "laxsaz".In any case, I find it a funny coincidence.

                                                                                                                                                                                  2. Paulustrious Oct 14, 2009 10:05 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                    When I heard Americanos talking about OJ I thought it was just an abbreviation for 'au jus'. I thought it was rather an odd thing to have for breakfast. Especially the freshly squeezed variety.

                                                                                                                                                                                    1. t
                                                                                                                                                                                      therealdoctorlew Oct 19, 2009 05:23 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                      Thirty years later my wife and I still get a kick out of recalling the restaurant somewhere near Yosemite that had steak "with deliciious Aujus Sauce." (punctuation as originally presented)

                                                                                                                                                                                      1. pikawicca Oct 19, 2009 06:06 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                        If I were in France and saw a menu item described as "avec au jus," I'd be worried. I live, however, in the USA, and do not expect that everyone speaks every language perfectly. In a French restaurant in the US, I'd expect them to get this right, likewise an Italian restaurant should train their servers how to pronounce "bruschetta." In an American casual dining place, however, I have no pronunciation expectations.

                                                                                                                                                                                        9 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: pikawicca
                                                                                                                                                                                          scuzzo Oct 19, 2009 08:51 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm still not sure how to pronounce "bruschetta".

                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: scuzzo
                                                                                                                                                                                            c oliver Oct 19, 2009 08:54 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                            I'm almost positive it's "bru-sketta." Is that right, people?

                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: c oliver
                                                                                                                                                                                              scuzzo Oct 19, 2009 09:41 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                              I did look it up, and you are right. But I do hear lots of variations!

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: scuzzo
                                                                                                                                                                                                Parigi Oct 27, 2009 04:07 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                "I do hear lots of variations!"
                                                                                                                                                                                                Not in Italy, there's no pronunciation variation re bruschetta

                                                                                                                                                                                              2. re: c oliver
                                                                                                                                                                                                greygarious Oct 19, 2009 09:55 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                Yes, in Italian (courtesy of a 3wk immersion course in college):
                                                                                                                                                                                                sch = sk
                                                                                                                                                                                                sc = sh
                                                                                                                                                                                                ch = k
                                                                                                                                                                                                ci = chee
                                                                                                                                                                                                ce = cheh
                                                                                                                                                                                                sce = sheh
                                                                                                                                                                                                There's not a sound like "ch" in "church", but the pronunciation of "gg" is close. Double consonants are pronounced with extra stress and a forceful expulsion of air as the following letter is enunciated.

                                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: pikawicca
                                                                                                                                                                                              Mr Taster Oct 27, 2009 08:10 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                              What about a fake Italian place like The Olive Garden where they train their chefs in Tuscany? Would you be put off if they mispronounced "bruschetta"?

                                                                                                                                                                                              Mr Taster

                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: Mr Taster
                                                                                                                                                                                                Parigi Oct 27, 2009 08:38 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                "Would you be put off if they mispronounced "bruschetta"?"
                                                                                                                                                                                                Not at all because I can't think of any reason for being there unless I am kidnapped, in which case I wouldn't be put off by any mispronunciation.

                                                                                                                                                                                              2. re: pikawicca
                                                                                                                                                                                                c
                                                                                                                                                                                                calumin Jan 15, 2013 07:32 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                In a French restaurant in the US, which course is the entree?

                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: calumin
                                                                                                                                                                                                  linguafood Jan 16, 2013 08:27 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Well. It *should* be the appetizer.

                                                                                                                                                                                              3. f
                                                                                                                                                                                                FrankD Oct 25, 2009 11:31 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                A couple of days ago, I heard Guy Fieri on his "Big Bite" show saying he was going to make "au jus gravy". The remote just kept flipping..

                                                                                                                                                                                                6 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: FrankD
                                                                                                                                                                                                  paulj Oct 25, 2009 06:58 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I just noticed at the grocery a half dozen different au jus gravy or sauce mixes - most noticeably "Johnny's French Dip Concentrated Au Jus Sauce,"

                                                                                                                                                                                                  That's a pretty clear sign that 'au jus' has taken on, in English, an identity that goes beyond the French roots.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                                                    greygarious Oct 25, 2009 07:36 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I prefer the mixes made by Paula's sister, Phyllis Deen ;-D.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: greygarious
                                                                                                                                                                                                      r
                                                                                                                                                                                                      ricepad Oct 26, 2009 12:00 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                      It took me a sec, but I got it...!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  2. re: FrankD
                                                                                                                                                                                                    n
                                                                                                                                                                                                    Normandie Nov 12, 2009 07:28 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                    (To FrankD)

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Not only does he go on and on about "au jus gravy", Frank, he also incessantly refers to "the au jus".

                                                                                                                                                                                                    I really don't like to be petty, but....Aaaaaaaggghhhhhhhh.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Does FN have no technical advisors?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: Normandie
                                                                                                                                                                                                      brandywiner Nov 14, 2009 11:38 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Sure they do: Guy Fieri, for example....

                                                                                                                                                                                                    2. re: FrankD
                                                                                                                                                                                                      s
                                                                                                                                                                                                      sandylc Dec 21, 2011 07:30 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yeah, although there is probably a place for Triple D (as covered in another thread), Guy really mangles most languages.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    3. f
                                                                                                                                                                                                      foodiesnorth Nov 13, 2009 12:29 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thank you to all..you have managed to mix my two favourite topics...food and etymology. I don't think I have enjoyed or laughed at a thread on this board as much as I have for this one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      My position aligns with those who note that langauge is not static and that adopting a word or phrase from one language into another means that the word or phrase loses the rules that apply from it's original language and becomes subject to the rules of its adopted language. As such, "au jus" becomes an english phrase and it becomes proper to use the English rules. "With "au jus" seem perfectly fine to me as an English speaker but, frankly, the food snob in me - and the influence of a bilingual country (Canada) - means I will never depart from simply "au jus".

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Now: intra language doubling up drives me crazy. The "PIN numbers" and "ATM machines"" etc are examples of poor speech and should be grounds for charging someone.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. Gio Nov 14, 2009 08:50 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I Love This Thread!

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Now, what do you say about people who use "au jus" when speaking about vegetables?

                                                                                                                                                                                                        1 Reply
                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: Gio
                                                                                                                                                                                                          Caitlin McGrath Nov 20, 2009 12:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I think they line up behind people who talk about vegetable tartares and carpaccios. But I don't really mind those transpositions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. s
                                                                                                                                                                                                          somervilleoldtimer Nov 14, 2009 11:49 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Soup du jour of the day! (Probably already appeared 1,000 times above, but I haven't read through them all.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. linguafood Nov 14, 2009 01:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                            Ugh. Just read a resto review in the New Yorker by Andrea Thompson, saying something was served 'with au jus sauce'. I always thought the NYer had higher standards...

                                                                                                                                                                                                            8 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: linguafood
                                                                                                                                                                                                              greygarious Nov 14, 2009 02:02 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                              In the last several years I have noticed several errors in punctuation, spelling, and syntax, so I am not surprised. I let my subscription run out last month. Did she think the food was awesome or "yummo"?

                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: greygarious
                                                                                                                                                                                                                linguafood Nov 14, 2009 02:06 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Haha, no. I generally like her reviews, but that just rubbed me wrong. I guess I can overlook the occasional errors if I could get over the weird double vowel ¨ thingee the NYer does...

                                                                                                                                                                                                              2. re: linguafood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                EWSflash Nov 14, 2009 03:56 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                I would have thought so , too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: EWSflash
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  k
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  kagoo Nov 17, 2009 08:42 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I came late to this post, but I have to add one of my favorites: Years ago, in a restaurant in the Poconos, they had "celery au blu" on the menu.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: kagoo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    j
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    jumpingmonk Nov 17, 2009 11:58 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    One of my mom's favorite food stories was when she went to Antione's in New Orleans (the Oysters Rockefeller place) and one of the liasted appetizers was "Fromage du creme du Phillidelphie" curios she order it and was served....Philadelphia brand cream cheese! I actually didnt beleive this story when she told it but she saved the menu and she's right that's what they wrote.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: jumpingmonk
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      BobB Nov 17, 2009 12:05 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      One of my less-favorite French restaurants in Boston (you know who you are, PRB!) offers a variation on paté de foie gras prepared "au microonde." Being in the communications business I know that microonde is French for microwave, so I asked the server - sure enough, it's prepared in the microwave. Why the chef insists on bragging about this on the menu is beyond me (the server, too, was mystified by that). It wasn't even very good - creamy but bland, with only a hint of foie gras flavor.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: BobB
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        f
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        FrankD Nov 17, 2009 05:06 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Somehow, I can just see someone going home and telling a friend that they had the
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "patty de foy grass o my-kroon-dee", and that it was just great....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: FrankD
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          thew Nov 17, 2009 06:53 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          no reason it shouldn't be

                                                                                                                                                                                                              3. f
                                                                                                                                                                                                                Fydeaux Nov 20, 2009 05:24 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                While you have a point (and the number of responses you have received suggests that it is a valid one), for my part, I can think of very few things less important that this. I favour substance over style.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. Parigi Nov 26, 2009 09:55 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  CH itself has a "most popular" video titled "how to sous vide an egg at home". Will a recipe for "the best au jus" be far behind?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  11 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: Parigi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    t
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    tehtroll Dec 19, 2011 09:23 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    It personally offends my sensibilities when someone asks for tea, but what they really want is a tisane or herbal infusion. Tea is only tea if it contains the leaves from the camelia sinensis plant. Any number of other inappropriate uses of words tend to annoy me. Biscotti is another such instance.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    A fine example of companies not being aware of etymolgy:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    - Coit the blinds cleaning company (Think coitus)
                                                                                                                                                                                                                    - Ford naming a car the "Nova" in mexico and wondering why no one purchased it (Who would buy a car that didn't go?)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: tehtroll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      paulj Dec 19, 2011 09:53 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.snopes.com/business/misxlate/nova.asp

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      "Hercule Poirot: Miss Lemon, yesterday was yesterday. My tisane, if you please."
                                                                                                                                                                                                                      http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0676188/q...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        f
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        frannieface77 Jan 2, 2012 09:55 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I adore Poirot.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: tehtroll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        a
                                                                                                                                                                                                                        acgold7 Dec 20, 2011 11:22 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The Nova was a GM (Chevy) car, not Ford.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: acgold7
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          u
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Uncle Yabai Jan 28, 2013 03:50 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          It was also the brand name of gasoline of a certain octane, so the "Nova" story is pure fluffery. In that case, why would the state oil company name a gasoline "Nova".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. re: tehtroll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                          greygarious Dec 20, 2011 11:34 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Well then, will we be seeing a Troll vs. Martha battle over gardeners' manure tea?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: tehtroll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Parigi Dec 21, 2011 04:10 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            There is basically not much one can do re a person who goes out of his way to grab offense, any offense. Such offendees surely enjoy the offense.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: Parigi
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              s
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              sedimental Dec 21, 2011 03:27 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Yeah, well...I take offense at people that take offense at offenders of language offenses...or is that offense's?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Goot Lawd, I must have too much time on my hands today to even be reading this thread :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: tehtroll
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              brandywiner Dec 22, 2011 08:34 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Not to accelerate the thread drift, but the cleaning company apparently comes by its name honestly. It was started in San Francisco, in the same neighborhood as Coit Tower, which in turn was bequeathed to the city by one Lillie Hitchcock Coit.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Now, about the shape of that tower....

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: brandywiner
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Veggo Dec 22, 2011 01:53 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It's OK, bw, your Coit didn't interrupt us.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: Veggo
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  m
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  mwhitmore Feb 19, 2013 01:27 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think I just got a *groan* injury!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2. f
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ferventfoodie Dec 21, 2011 01:33 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Rachel Ray used to drive me nuts with her references to "slaw salad". Someone must have
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            told her that "slaw" is salad, because I haven't heard her use it recently - but I rarely watch
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            her anymore. Also seem to recall her saying 'EVOO oil" in early shows.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1 Reply
                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: ferventfoodie
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              s
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              sandylc Dec 21, 2011 03:06 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Around these parts, it's "bread rolls".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2. p
                                                                                                                                                                                                                              pine time Dec 21, 2011 03:31 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Just today, a restaurant proudly listed "cafe au lait with milk." I had one, and no, it didn't have a double milk portion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. goodhealthgourmet Dec 23, 2011 06:12 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                i was just watching an old episode of Chopped, and one of the chefs said she was making a "ragu sauce." i told her that ragu *means* sauce, but she didn't respond :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: goodhealthgourmet
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  paulj Dec 23, 2011 06:29 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  One Italian cookbook claims 'ragu' comes from the French 'ragoûter' - 'to restore or stimulate the appetite'.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    goodhealthgourmet Dec 24, 2011 10:43 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    so does the French ragoût (obviously). but the issue here is definition, not etymology...and i'm willing to bet that source you cited *defines* a ragu as something along the lines of a tomato-based meat sauce typically served with pasta, and a ragoût as a thick meat or fish stew.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    for the record, she was preparing a pumpkin-based sauce with no pasta in sight.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2. w
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  wayne keyser Jan 15, 2013 02:18 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm tired of this argument - gotta go have some shrimp scampi for dinner.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: wayne keyser
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    s
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sal Vanilla Jan 25, 2013 03:38 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    : }

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: wayne keyser
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      m
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      mwhitmore Feb 19, 2013 01:29 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Not so much redundant as contradictory---shrimp and scampi (aka langoustino, aka dublin bay prawns) are two different animals.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: mwhitmore
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        linguafood Feb 19, 2013 01:44 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Yeah, but it also happens to be a culinary term for a specific dish.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: linguafood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          j
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          jumpingmonk Feb 19, 2013 02:50 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Oh dear me this one is a little complicated. Technically scampi does refer to a kind of shrimp, a rare sort only found in the Bay of Naples. However since it is so rare (fishing in the bay of Naples is not what it once was) it was common to use the langoustine as a substitute. The langoustine is not native to Italian waters. Truthfully it isn't found in Dublin bay either, that name comes from the fact that Dublin bay used to be a common destination for the fishing boats to sell off their catch of these crustaceans; which they actually caught in Scandanavian waters (or why langoustines are sometimes referred to as Norway Lobster or indeed why it is called a langousine (the diminuative of langouste, a.k.a. spiny lobster). When the Italians adopted the langoustine, they used the same garlic/butter/white wine sauce they had used for the shrimp, so the sauce became scampi as well. When the dish was broght over here to the US, regular shrimp were substituted, as we don't have the langoustine in our waters either. To muddle things further, in the US Langoustino often refers to a small crayfish as no one bothered to copyright/trademark/whatever you do the word "langoustine/langustino"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    2. w
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Wawsanham Jan 16, 2013 08:23 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Just to go back to a previous poster's "nova" example: the car that wouldn't sell in Mexico (or other Spanish-speaking countries) because nova supposedly means "it doesn't go."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This is a bit of an urban legend, I think. "Nova" means the same in Spanish as in English--as in, it is associated with astronomy (the nova of a star). In Spanish, "doesn't go" is "no va" which also has a different, though similar pronunciation. Any Spanish-speaker with any schooling knows this. Perhaps some people who said "nova" meant "no va" were just ignorant.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      9 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: Wawsanham
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        TroyTempest Jan 16, 2013 10:47 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I think people in Mexico had fun with the name just as those in US would have fun if it was called nogo.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I could hear it now.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Chevy: No it isn't "no go", it's "nogo", there is a space between, it changes the way you pronounce it.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Smart Aleck: Yeah right, no go, you have a car named no go.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: TroyTempest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          paulj Jan 16, 2013 12:16 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          There's a story about how Nissan executives named their initial entry into the USA market. They asked some American for ideas. The American in turn asked how soon they planned to ship the cars, and was told 6 months (or something like that), to which he replied, 'dat soon?'

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          http://articles.latimes.com/2000/aug/...
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          says it was a German who asked 'dat soon'. Not that it matters, since the story has a much truth as the 'no va' one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: TroyTempest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Tripeler Jan 16, 2013 07:53 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Well, they could blame it on the boss of Nova.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            1. re: Tripeler
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              w
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              WNYamateur Jan 17, 2013 11:40 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Loved it ;-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            2. re: TroyTempest
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              johnb Jan 17, 2013 09:27 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The Snopes entry (linked earlier) demolishes the urban legend about the Nova in Latin America. A good read. Bottom line: GM was not stupid as folks want to believe. They knew about and considered the "nova" name before they started selling the car there, and went ahead and used it anyway because they correctly judged it would have no impact on sales. They were right--it didn't. It was a successful product there, and the Nova name was used the entire time it was marketed there. Among other things the article discusses the no va vs. nova aspect, and even points out that Pemex (the Mexican national oil company) sells a gasoline dubbed Nova.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Once again, here is the link:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              http://www.snopes.com/business/misxla...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. re: johnb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                BobB Jan 25, 2013 09:31 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                In a related vein - but this one is real -a few years ago IKEA produced a child's bunk bed that they named "Gutvik," realizing only later that in German that sequence of letters is pronounced "gootfik," which means literally "good f**k."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: BobB
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  linguafood Jan 25, 2013 09:34 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  That's the greatest name for a bed if I ever heard one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: linguafood
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    kattyeyes Jan 25, 2013 07:00 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Yes, too bad it's a bunk! That takes the joy right out of it!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2. re: johnb
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  TroyTempest Jan 25, 2013 11:14 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I hate it when the facts get in the way of a good story

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            3. s
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sal Vanilla Jan 25, 2013 03:36 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "Chilly con Carny with meat". The lunch place down the hill from me often has this on their special board. It makes me smile.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1. k
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Kalivs Jan 26, 2013 10:59 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                In the same league as ATM machine & pin number

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1 Reply
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                1. re: Kalivs
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mr Taster Jan 27, 2013 03:50 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/658294#5091510
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/658294#7852290
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/658294#7853259
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/658294#5179636
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/6582...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  !!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Mr Taster

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                2. k
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Katquilts May 13, 2013 06:12 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I am so with you on this one. "Jus" is th noun. It's French for "juice." "Au jus" means "with jus," or the way it is served. To say "with au jus" is to say "with with juice." The correct terminology is "I serve it "au jus," or "I serve it with jus." I feel the same pain when I hear so-called fashion experts massacre the name "Lanvin." And this is why the French hate us...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  4 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  1. re: Katquilts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    paulj May 13, 2013 06:50 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    and the French never mangle words or phrases borrowed from English ...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      k
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Katquilts May 13, 2013 07:12 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I can't speak for all the French. I'm just saying, if someone (especially a so-called professional) is going to use a cooking/serving term, whether French, English, Spanish or Swahili, they should be using the correct terminology.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      1. re: paulj
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Tripeler May 14, 2013 10:03 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Actually, the French steal from English the words they lack,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        like Le Weekend, Le Camping and Cul de Sac...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (from the Rowan Atkinson song "That's Why I Hate the French")

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      2. re: Katquilts
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        d
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        DeppityDawg May 14, 2013 03:15 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Not all of the French hate you, but those that do have better reasons than this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      3. Atomic76 May 18, 2013 01:25 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        i think it's the same way with Shittake, which means mushroom. So saying shiitake mushroom is like saying mushroom mushroom.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        3 Replies
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. re: Atomic76
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Tripeler May 18, 2013 01:32 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Well, actually, a shiitake is one kind of mushroom from Japan, and saying shiitake mushroom just indicates what type of mushroom it is. However, for those who know what it is, just saying shiitake alone is fine. Other popular mushrooms are enoki, eringe, shimeji, and maitake.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          1. re: Tripeler
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            BobB May 20, 2013 11:42 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            And if I'm not mistaken, maitake is what we call Hen of the Woods. Now THERE'S a mushroom for you! My wife and I found one once (she was Russian and a real mushroom hound) and it served about 15 people. One mushroom.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          2. re: Atomic76
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            d
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            DeppityDawg May 18, 2013 03:01 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            In Japanese, yes, "take" means mushroom (although the ordinary word would be "kinoko") and "shii" is a type of tree. But that's Japanese.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          3. meatnveg May 20, 2013 12:03 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Chai Tea.

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