658294 Fri Oct 09 10:47:16 -0700 2009 186 29 Not About Food 0 5091326 Just a heads up to the authors of the many posts which refer to eating/cooking meats "with au jus". This incorrect usage may result in your opinions being considered less valuable by others. I don't mean to be snarky, just offering a metaphorical "spinach in your teeth" aside to those who'd be embarrassed. Fri Oct 09 10:47:16 -0700 2009 159317 greygarious 1 5091380 The phrase is common parlance in the cafeteria at the Department of Redundancy Department. Fri Oct 09 11:07:34 -0700 2009 5091326 57170 Veggo 2 5197317 I've eaten there! I have the same thing everytime. Twice! Fri Nov 20 17:04:08 -0800 2009 5091380 1101903 lil magill 3 5197972 You just reminded me of a sign that was in British Aerospace. It said... Planning Departm ent Sat Nov 21 05:39:11 -0800 2009 5197317 154622 Paulustrious 1 5091412 Good point. Also a while back someone pointed out (not on CH) that you shouldn't be mixing/combining languages anyway. The example she gave was "double entendre" but I can't think of a food one offhand --- except au jus. Fri Oct 09 11:17:20 -0700 2009 5091326 131001 c oliver 1 5091510 PIN Number ATM Machine With au jus I see it as all the same thing Fri Oct 09 11:50:18 -0700 2009 5091326 49823 Terrieltr 2 5091528 The same error. Fri Oct 09 11:57:01 -0700 2009 5091510 131001 c oliver 2 5091778 True, they are all highly irritating and bound to lead to either a poor first impression, or a reduced estimation, of you in the mind of those who are listening or reading your output. Fri Oct 09 13:24:08 -0700 2009 5091510 24055 Atahualpa 2 5091999 PIN number sticks in my craw too along with: SIN number (Canadian) salsa sauce lentils from du puy . . . groan naan bread - don't we know it's bread? Fri Oct 09 14:45:28 -0700 2009 5091510 1093156 cinnamon girl 3 5098882 yep I was gonna say naan bread and chai tea. but y'all beat me to it. Tue Oct 13 02:51:26 -0700 2009 5091999 118120 luckyfatima 4 5099492 what would be a more authentically Indian way of talking about 'chai tea' - a (soy) milk, spiced tea mix? If 'chai' just means tea, how do you add the spiced connotation? Some years ago, before 'chai' was a available in liter boxes, I bought a bottle of 'chai massala', a mix of cardamom, ginger, etc., i.e. a spice mix intended for use in 'chai'. Tue Oct 13 08:47:03 -0700 2009 5098882 12139 paulj 5 5099647 masala chai. but then that's the way 99% of the tea in india is served so it's what you usually get if you just say chai - you have to specify if you want lemon tea, or no milk or whatever Tue Oct 13 09:37:04 -0700 2009 5099492 135229 thew 6 5101554 But there are many many kinds of masala. So you should be sure to specify that you want "chai masala" chai. And to be absolutely sure, "masala chai masala chai". Etc. Tue Oct 13 22:00:48 -0700 2009 5099647 149250 DeppityDawg 7 5101668 No, everyone would get what you mean if you said masala chai. Though the specifics of the exact spices use could vary, they would all be within the acceptable range of what spices go in spiced tea. No one is going to put, say, goda masala or sambar masala in your chai. I promise. :-) Tue Oct 13 23:52:08 -0700 2009 5101554 118120 luckyfatima 6 5184603 No, most tea in India is not served spiced. When you just say 'chai', most people assume you're talking about strong black tea with plenty of milk and probably sugar. Sun Nov 15 21:42:48 -0800 2009 5099647 1112748 Scrofula 7 5184851 i have to say in all my years in india that has not been my experience. most of the tea in india is served in small chai shops, or by roadside chai wallahs, not in fancy restaurants. i would say, that in my experience 99% of those have at least a little spice mixed in the tea. Mon Nov 16 04:57:48 -0800 2009 5184603 135229 thew 8 5186440 I'd guess that more tea is brewed at home than by chaiwallahs, and I've rarely seen people brew their day-to-day tea with masala. I haven't had a lot of chai shop tea, so I can't comment on how common it is for those to be spiced, though it seems plausible. Mon Nov 16 14:07:26 -0800 2009 5184851 1112748 Scrofula 5 5101485 Yes, it would be masala chai as thew says. Tue Oct 13 21:10:33 -0700 2009 5099492 118120 luckyfatima 3 5121065 In Los Angeles, I work near The La Brea Tar Pits, which translates to: The The Tar Tar Pits. Mr Taster Wed Oct 21 16:34:34 -0700 2009 5091999 17579 Mr Taster 4 5121172 and technically "gunny sack" means "sack sack" Wed Oct 21 17:22:07 -0700 2009 5121065 24492 jumpingmonk 4 5121421 Yep, like Kauai's The Na Pali Cliffs, or The The Cliffs Cliffs. Wed Oct 21 19:11:34 -0700 2009 5121065 13722 small h 4 5177527 "The Tar Tar Pits" Do they have enormous fish fries nearby on Fridays? Thu Nov 12 19:25:15 -0800 2009 5121065 1104506 FrankD 2 5093166 PDF format Sat Oct 10 07:43:12 -0700 2009 5091510 76025 mojoeater 2 5102949 Mount Fujiyama Wed Oct 14 12:20:19 -0700 2009 5091510 55915 MartinDC 3 5103552 from the cheesemarket "sheep's milk pecorino" "goat's milk chevre" Wed Oct 14 15:56:43 -0700 2009 5102949 24492 jumpingmonk 2 5105165 Ditto "the hoi polloi" (the the people). Thu Oct 15 08:51:18 -0700 2009 5091510 14386 BobB 3 5116266 Nice one Bob! Had no idea. Thx! Mon Oct 19 21:41:05 -0700 2009 5105165 1093156 cinnamon girl 1 5091802 Also, we should never say "the alcohol" or "the alfalfa" because the "al-" part already means "the", right? All languages are full of quirky little mistakes and imperfections. That's what's so great about them. People are always looking for reasons to consider others' opinions less valuable. That's what's so awful about them. Fri Oct 09 13:32:30 -0700 2009 5091326 149250 DeppityDawg 2 5091817 I don't believe that's the breakdown of the word "alcohol" (isn't it based on alkyls or something?). I used to feed my horses alfalfa but I don't know its English origin. But I would say that something that has changed, if these have, over hundreds of years is quite a bit different than saying "with au jus." I wouldn't consider someone's opinion less valuable but it would be a tad fingernail-on-the-blackboard-ish. Fri Oct 09 13:41:10 -0700 2009 5091802 131001 c oliver 3 5092420 It and alfalfa are actually from arabic. I think the al- prefix mes best or best of. Alfalfa come from al-fash-fash which basically means "best of fodders (things you feed animals, like horses)". Alcohol comes from al-kohl "best of kohls" (an black arseinide of antimony, one popular as an eye makeup. and orginaly simply meant a distillate done with heat so tecnically alchol as we undersantd it isnt reduntant it's insufficent (back when it was still a new idea it often was called "alcohol of wine") Fri Oct 09 17:46:22 -0700 2009 5091817 24492 jumpingmonk 4 5092459 I guess not all "al"s share the same etymology. Al Capone liked his alcohol neat and his pasta al dente. Fri Oct 09 18:00:02 -0700 2009 5092420 57170 Veggo 2 5101467 "Al" is the definite article in Arabic. It is not, however, redundant to say "the alcohol", because the Arabic word is "al-kuhl". "Alcohol" is an English word. Once a word or term is assimilated to a language, it has a distinct meaning within that language, and functions by the grammatical rules of that language. Tue Oct 13 20:57:28 -0700 2009 5091802 36408 danieljdwyer 1 5091846 Blame it on the great number of places that serve dishes "...with au jus sauce". Fri Oct 09 13:49:51 -0700 2009 5091326 93805 hannaone 2 5091874 But that would actually be correct (sort of), if they made the sauce with the jus. Fri Oct 09 13:59:35 -0700 2009 5091846 149250 DeppityDawg 3 5091885 Good point, DD :) Fri Oct 09 14:03:37 -0700 2009 5091874 131001 c oliver 1 5091897 You're not snarky! I'm glad to learn and welcome it. Saying "cheese with fish is forbidden" is snarky and makes me immediately want to dust my salmon with parmesan! Saying "from my experience, cheese interferes with the flavor is fish", makes me think twice, and you have my attention. Lots of grammatical errors go mainstream, not making them right, like referring to "the 80's" instead of "the 80s". Because something is widely accepted never makes it right. At one point it was widely accepted that the world was flat. Fri Oct 09 14:07:09 -0700 2009 5091326 123480 scuzzo 2 5091907 It's how we learn,isn't it? I didn't know about fish and cheese until a few years to. And once I did, I agreed. Fri Oct 09 14:11:24 -0700 2009 5091897 131001 c oliver 3 5091922 I do love to learn...which is why I come here! I so appreciate the many smart, kind and helpful people who hang out here. Fri Oct 09 14:16:16 -0700 2009 5091907 123480 scuzzo 2 5092917 <<Because something is widely accepted never makes it right.>> Actually it does it make it right. The OED will take in new meanings of existing words wih no problem. Speech patterns change with each generation and with absorption of new cultural values. Your use of commas in the previous sentence is a move in English to represent pauses in speech as opposed to a purely grammatic positioning - a move which I approve of. (cf: a move of which I approve). The grating we all feel is when a new expression seems an uneducated and unnecessary nouveau addition, adoption or amendment to the gemütlich status quo of our language. Incidentally, throughout history most reasonably advanced civilisations thought the world. We willingly accept certain phrases such as radar detection, laser radiation or ac current and they are not incorrect. The purpose of language is ultimately to convey information. It should not be held on a pedestal of inviolability, else we would all still be speaking Chaucerian English or some proto-Sumerian language. And of course we should mix languages. One of the huge strengths of English is / was its ability to cherry pick from other languages. Sat Oct 10 02:48:40 -0700 2009 5091897 154622 Paulustrious 3 5092947 But wouldn't you agree that "with au jus" is always going to be wrong? Sat Oct 10 04:47:01 -0700 2009 5092917 131001 c oliver 4 5093005 I think it's because you speak some (maybe a lot) of French. For all I know Bahn Mi may mean 'with bread' and I would be perfectly happy to say with "bahn mi sandwiches". But you are right, 'with au jus' grates on me too. It doesn't exist in England, and I am yet to see it in Canada. I just realised I missed a word out of my previous reply. It should have read: <throughout history most reasonably advanced civilisations thought the world round - with occasional doctrinal flatitudes. > Sat Oct 10 05:53:12 -0700 2009 5092947 154622 Paulustrious 5 5093022 That's a really long word. Sat Oct 10 06:07:45 -0700 2009 5093005 149250 DeppityDawg 4 5101425 Not if "au jus" comes to mean "meat drippings" in English. Like Paulustrious said, knowing a bit of French (in this case) allows one to see an obvious error. I am a bit of an English grammar freak, and that also extends to French and Spanish. But given even the slightest chance, I would ignorantly butcher hundreds of foreign languages. Tue Oct 13 20:36:47 -0700 2009 5092947 106932 Agent Orange 3 5093076 While it's true that descriptive linguists focus on language as it is spoken or written, the dictionaries and usage guides they produce tend to describe fairly standardized language. They're not as averse to change as the prescriptive linguists, who insist on telling the rest of the world the way language **should be,** but neither do they embrace every passing (mis)usage and malapropism. So while it's true that a descriptive dictionary will take in new meanings, it will tend to do so only when those meanings have been embraced in journalism, literature, academia, and/or the popular media. Whether squealing about nonstandard but increasingly common usages ("with au jus"; "15 items or less"; etc.) has any ability to prevent such usage from becoming common enough to be considered standard is an open question. For example, use of the word "like" as a conjunction was considered to be nonstandard until the 1960s. So the popular jingle "Winston tastes good like a cigarette should" caused a bit of an uproar; Walter Cronkite refused to read the line as written on his show and Ogden Nash suggested that "like goes Madison Avenue, like so goes the nation." When Webster's Third Edition recognized this usage, the New York Times decried it as "bolshevik" and the Chicago Daily News complained of a "general decay in values." On the other hand, no dictionary recognized the Beverly Hillbillies take on the slogan ("Winston tastes good like a cigarette had oughta"). PS - "a move which I approve of" -- "a move **that** I approve of." ;-) Sat Oct 10 06:47:23 -0700 2009 5092917 58743 alanbarnes 4 5093144 I dangle my preposition with wild abandon. And I start sentences with conjunctions. But there are some things up with which I will not put. Sat Oct 10 07:31:22 -0700 2009 5093084 58743 alanbarnes 5 5093904 Yeah, I used to dangle my preposition too. But as I got older, my phrases got shorter, and now I don't dangle no more. Sat Oct 10 15:32:10 -0700 2009 5093144 1104506 FrankD 6 5191128 Dangling irks me. I try to avoid it even if it means I need to completely revise my sentence. Wed Nov 18 07:22:51 -0800 2009 5093904 88544 Ima Wurdibitsch 4 5093182 Pronouncing "the final word" in a language dispute is the best way to keep the dispute going for a long, long time. Sat Oct 10 07:53:21 -0700 2009 5093084 149250 DeppityDawg 4 5093621 <<PS - "a move which I approve of" -- "a move **that** I approve of." ;-) >> Hoist once again. Like yeah. Sat Oct 10 12:32:37 -0700 2009 5093076 154622 Paulustrious 3 5093159 Re: "Because something is widely accepted never makes it right." I concur with Paulustrious. In a recent column regarding deceased NY Times word maven William Safire, they reiterated that Safire, for all his "usage policing," admitted that English is a living language and that words tend to begin to mean what people using them *intend* them to mean. "with au jus" is, indeed, wrong, however, any way you slice it. (Here I'm anticipating a query from the delightful c oliver) -- addenda: I just read farther down the thread. alanbarnes can be *my* William Safire anytime! Sat Oct 10 07:38:59 -0700 2009 5092917 270888 shaogo 3 5101490 I agree with you that most linguistic authorities take a descriptivist approach - I've found it is usually academics in fields far removed from English that tend towards prescriptivism. But, to add to your point, descriptivism has its limits. "With au jus" is not likely to ever be considered a correct construction, as it is obviously incorrect. It's quite different from an something such as the use of "like" as a quotative, for example. Most linguists accept this usage of "like" as correct in informal speech, as there is no real basis on which to argue that it is incorrect (despite insistence to the contrary on the part of the parents and teachers of Generation Y). Some things also just never had any historical basis on which to be considered incorrect, so very few linguists still consider them to be - splitting infinitives, ending a sentence with a preposition, starting a sentence with a conjunction, et cetera. On the other hand, I would hazard to guess that most people conflate "it's" and "its", but the OED is never going to accept that. Some things are just wrong, and the acceptance of them as incorrect will likely stay wide enough to counterbalance their widespread usage. Tue Oct 13 21:16:02 -0700 2009 5092917 36408 danieljdwyer 4 5101565 The OED already recognizes "au jus" as a noun (= "jus"), so "with au jus" is not obviously incorrect _in English_. It's incorrect in French, obviously, because "with" doesn't mean anything in French. Tue Oct 13 22:09:03 -0700 2009 5101490 149250 DeppityDawg 5 5101587 They also record "et cetera" as a substantive (noun), but I doubt that any of the contributors are trying to imply that it is ever correct to say "and et cetera". Beyond that, the OED is a guide to meaning, not usage. It is not typically viewed as an authority on correct phrasing, and would be quite difficult to use as such. Tue Oct 13 22:27:47 -0700 2009 5101565 36408 danieljdwyer 6 5101619 I only brought up the OED because you did! But the point is, this usage exists and it is, I believe, more widespread than the closer-to-French version, so your prediction is unlikely to be correct. But if we could tell the future, we would all be on schwab.com, not on Chowhound. Tue Oct 13 22:57:11 -0700 2009 5101587 149250 DeppityDawg 2 5093679 in language widely accepted indeed does eventually make it right. to go back to my oft stated examples - if you tell me you have a terrific meal, do you mean it induced terror in you? Do you think less of someone who says sunrise, even though it isn;t the sun moving? Sat Oct 10 13:10:03 -0700 2009 5091897 135229 thew 3 5093992 Good points. Sat Oct 10 16:22:33 -0700 2009 5093679 157030 iluvtennis 2 5101480 "The 80's" is a correct construction in American English. One of the proper uses of an apostrophe is in the pluralization of abbreviations, acronyms, and symbols. Tue Oct 13 21:02:29 -0700 2009 5091897 36408 danieljdwyer 3 5101549 It depends on the style guide you are consulting. Tue Oct 13 21:55:26 -0700 2009 5101480 123480 scuzzo 4 5101599 True enough. I usually write out "Eighties", but a lot of style guides say that's incorrect also. And any style guide that says "80's" is correct would say I should be putting my punctuation inside the quotation marks with use-mention distinctions - and any style guide that said the punctuation belonged outside the quotation marks would also say I should use a single quote mark. But hey, nothing wrong with a little mixing and matching. Tue Oct 13 22:37:37 -0700 2009 5101549 36408 danieljdwyer 5 5102163 Someday soon we shall lose the 00S as we say farewell to the naughties. Wed Oct 14 07:47:55 -0700 2009 5101599 154622 Paulustrious 6 5115932 And the year after that will be the start of the elevenses (one big long tea break?) :) Mon Oct 19 18:53:02 -0700 2009 5102163 12139 paulj 3 5115669 I'd be more likely to write "the '80s", per Rules 10 and 11 here: http://www.grammarbook.com/numbers/numbers.asp Mon Oct 19 17:00:43 -0700 2009 5101480 10532 LindaWhit 4 5115783 Thanks. That way you can still use an apostrophe to show when it's possessive, not just plural. Mon Oct 19 17:50:34 -0700 2009 5115669 123480 scuzzo 5 5116676 Exactly. I think of "apostrophe-s" as a possessive form. With English teachers for my mother and both grandmothers, and having gone to Katharine Gibbs back in the mid-1970s, I've had English drilled into me. I'm hoping I retained *something*. :-) Tue Oct 20 06:29:38 -0700 2009 5115783 10532 LindaWhit 6 5116898 Every English grammar rule has its exception. Tue Oct 20 08:08:16 -0700 2009 5116676 154622 Paulustrious 2 5102430 But what about the Filet O' Fish? :) Wed Oct 14 09:28:58 -0700 2009 5091897 19518 rockandroller1 3 5102463 That's to distinguish it from their filet de bœuf sandwich. Wed Oct 14 09:40:03 -0700 2009 5102430 12139 paulj 4 5115771 But does the filet de bœuf sandwich come with aujus sauce? Mon Oct 19 17:46:09 -0700 2009 5102463 10668 johnb 5 5115808 but you can get the filet sandwich with or without the bone Mon Oct 19 17:59:35 -0700 2009 5115771 11290 jfood 2 5115693 Actually, in the very standard pedantic English punctuation rules, the plural of a symbol or abbreviation or a number as a thing does indeed take an apostrophe. "80's" is correct. Mon Oct 19 17:10:21 -0700 2009 5091897 221285 therealdoctorlew 2 5181328 scuzzo, I'm pretty sure that if you were determined to use apostrophes when saying "the 80's" instead of "the 80s" you could say "the '80s", since you are truncating the 1980s. There's a site called toothpastefordinner.com that has some pretty great cartoons. One is a guy hawking apostrophes. He's shouting "Apostrophes, get your apostrophes! Use 'em for plurals, get your apostrophes here..." Sat Nov 14 10:29:12 -0800 2009 5091897 105625 EWSflash 1 5091965 I haven't had a french dip in over 15 years but this thread is making me crave one. Here's an interesting discussion on improperly used terms, including au jus. Pass me an apple pie with a la mode... http://www.takeourword.com/TOW146/page4.html Fri Oct 09 14:34:28 -0700 2009 5091326 39874 chowser 2 5092005 lol . . . and how did a la mode ever come to mean ice cream anyway? Fri Oct 09 14:47:41 -0700 2009 5091965 1093156 cinnamon girl 1 5092278 Yeah I don't see a problem. Don't they sell that au jus sauce in a bottle. So what's the problem? hehe Give me some of that meat loaf with that there au jus sauce. Anything wrong with that? And throw on some of that brushetta stuff too. Fri Oct 09 16:26:25 -0700 2009 5091326 89493 scubadoo97 1 5092849 My best friend declared that she was my best friend one night at a restaurant, when I had ordered prime rib "with au jus." When my plate came, there was no jus, and I exclaimed, "Hey, my prime rib didn't come with with with juice!" My friend declared her undying affection for me then and there. Fri Oct 09 23:37:05 -0700 2009 5091326 155583 modthyrth 1 5093578 Does this (and the other examples) qualify as an idiom, a phrase that is best understood through common usage, as opposed to the literal meaning of its pieces? 'au jus' in French is a prepositional phrase, but 'au' is not an English preposition. Or another way to look at it, 'au jus' has entered the English language as a noun, meaning effect, 'an unthickened gravy', as opposed to an adjective. So English speakers who are not thinking in terms of its French roots, feel a need to add the 'with'. I think the example of the Arabic 'al' is quite relevant. Quite often linguistic details are lost (changed) when a word or phrase is transferred from one language to another. The English is language is quite forgiving when borrowing words. For exaple, we don't insist on adding a 'o' or 'a' gender marker on every word. But that borrowing can also be sloppy. Sat Oct 10 11:51:44 -0700 2009 5091326 12139 paulj 2 5093646 Technically, "au jus" is an adjective. In French, that follows the verb but in English, it precedes it so we should have au jus roast beef, not roast beef au jus. Getting too technical makes it sound stupid pretty. As for borrowing "o" or "a" endings, we do, if the word is Italian. Pizza, not pizzo or pizz. And we don't do it to every word because not every word is Italian based. English tends to borrow the word as is but use its own grammatical structure eg if you want to make pizza plural, we wouldn't follow Italian grammar and call it pizze. Given how amalgamated English is, we'd have to be fluent in too many languages to conjugate every word in its original language. Sat Oct 10 12:48:02 -0700 2009 5093578 39874 chowser 3 5093711 In 'beef au jus', is 'au jus' modifying beef, or beef modifying 'au jus'? Or is that like trying to pick apart 'beef wellington'? Sat Oct 10 13:26:53 -0700 2009 5093646 12139 paulj 4 5093721 Oh, cool, this is REALLY getting to be fun!!! Sat Oct 10 13:33:01 -0700 2009 5093711 131001 c oliver 4 5093893 LOL, there are restaurants that serve more au jus thanbeef. Bourgignon boeuf? Sat Oct 10 15:27:00 -0700 2009 5093711 39874 chowser 4 5094014 beef modifying 'au jus'? That'd be jus au beef, duh ! Sat Oct 10 16:33:30 -0700 2009 5093711 1106797 Parigi 5 5094250 In English, the modifier usually is placed before the noun. For example, 'beef steak'. An English speaker who does not know French, could very well take 'au jus' as the noun, and beef as the adjective. Yes, I know 'au jus' is written as two words, but it is usually pronounced as a two syllable word. Sat Oct 10 19:10:12 -0700 2009 5094014 12139 paulj 1 5093696 It's like chili con carne with (or is it without) meat. Sat Oct 10 13:21:05 -0700 2009 5091326 1106797 Parigi 2 5093747 Or a chai tea latte - mixing three languages to get tea with milk and spices tea with hot milk. Sat Oct 10 13:46:53 -0700 2009 5093696 14819 cookie monster 3 5093939 especially as chai just means tea anyway Sat Oct 10 15:51:00 -0700 2009 5093747 135229 thew 1 5093946 Enlighten me. What do I say if I don't want the f**king juice? Sat Oct 10 15:55:35 -0700 2009 5091326 57170 Veggo 2 5093953 I think you say "with no f**king au jus." Sat Oct 10 15:57:49 -0700 2009 5093946 131001 c oliver 3 5093989 ...or you could be a helluva snob, order prime rib sans jus, and confuse your server no end. Salsa sauce and queso cheese: Those phrases bother me, but I recognize the people don't know what they are saying. Sat Oct 10 16:21:38 -0700 2009 5093953 1115299 RobinJ 4 5094003 Or even brie cheese. Or is there some other food that's brie? Sat Oct 10 16:25:36 -0700 2009 5093989 131001 c oliver 5 5094718 Salsbrie steak. Bluebrie pie. Brieoche Sun Oct 11 06:40:48 -0700 2009 5094003 154622 Paulustrious 6 5094849 Hohoho Sun Oct 11 08:26:38 -0700 2009 5094718 131001 c oliver 4 5094010 And for dessert I'll order creme brulee sans foie gras and really trick 'em. Sat Oct 10 16:28:47 -0700 2009 5093989 57170 Veggo 5 5094226 I'm willing to bet you've just given Martin Picard at "Au Pied du Cochon" in Montreal an idea.... Sat Oct 10 18:53:35 -0700 2009 5094010 1104506 FrankD 6 5130385 Foie gras creme brulee is more common in Montreal than you think. Oddly enough Martin Picard does not serve it. Sun Oct 25 18:18:00 -0700 2009 5094226 10715 rcianci 7 5130981 Geez, I need to get out more! Mon Oct 26 04:44:12 -0700 2009 5130385 1104506 FrankD 4 5094719 On the flip side, the current Velveeta commercial bothers me no end. Man runs into a beauty parlor begging: "Queso...I need queso! Please!" He doesn't mean "I need cheese"; what he means is "I need Chili con queso." So a woman with foil hair dye strips on her head (perhaps she's his wife; we're never quite sure) jumps out of her chair, runs into the kitchen in back (huh?) and from a pantry stocked with nothing else but Velveeta boxes and Rotel cans, takes one of each. She then cubes up the Velveeta, opens a can of Rotel Diced Tomatoes and Green Chiles, mixes them in a bowl and then heats them up in the microwave. We then see her dipping a taco chip into it and feeding this man who, satisfied, runs out of the shop (with the bowl in hand, mind you.) The tag line: Rotel and Velveeta: together, they make queso. NO, they make Chili con queso. Sun Oct 11 06:41:02 -0700 2009 5093989 95137 mcsheridan 5 5094722 <<The tag line: Rotel and Velveeta: together, they make queso. NO, they make Chili con queso.>> Sorry - I'm going to have to disagree with that. I'm not quite sure what they make. It's a long time since I did any chemical engineering. Sun Oct 11 06:45:13 -0700 2009 5094719 154622 Paulustrious 6 5094726 Point well taken. They (and I) used the term "queso" too loosely when considering this Kraft 'food product'. I was only quibbling with the dropped words and the abuse of language, not the authenticity of the item. Sun Oct 11 06:47:44 -0700 2009 5094722 95137 mcsheridan 7 5094784 <They (and I) used the term "queso" too loosely when considering this Kraft 'food product'.> You're not the first. This caused me no end of confusion a couple of years ago. http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/381720#2403445 Sun Oct 11 07:50:36 -0700 2009 5094726 13722 small h 5 5094866 Context, context. Yes if you mention 'queso' in a Spanish speaking country, they understand it to be 'cheese'. But what if you ask for it in a TexMex restaurant? Will the waitress as 'Do you mean 'Chile con Queso' or plain Queso'? From Wiki: "Chile con queso (Spanish for "chile with cheese"), usually known simply as queso, is an appetizer that is served in Tex-Mex restaurants.... Chile con queso is called "queso" by Texans. It should not be confused with "cheese dip," an inaccurate colloquialism used by people unfamiliar with Tex-Mex cuisine." How about chili? Should we insist that everyone return to 'chile con carne'? or Carne de res con chiles rojo al estilo Texas'? By the way, is it Chile con queso, or Chili con queso? Chili, with the 'i', often is reserved to the TexMex meat stew, not just anything with chile peppers in it. Is 'chile pepper' a redundancy? Sun Oct 11 08:36:15 -0700 2009 5094719 12139 paulj 5 5094891 If we are going to insist on an accurate Spanish description, how about 'queso ameriicano con tomates y chiles'? Isn't cheese (or cheese product) the dominant ingredient? It's not 'peppers with a bit a cheese'. Sun Oct 11 08:50:24 -0700 2009 5094719 12139 paulj 6 5094958 I think I'll stick with chorizo fundido :) Sun Oct 11 09:30:08 -0700 2009 5094891 131001 c oliver 7 5094974 What's that, molten sausage? :) 'hierro fundido' gets a lot of attention on Chow, especially under cookware. It means 'cast iron'. Sun Oct 11 09:36:24 -0700 2009 5094958 12139 paulj 8 5095007 There's a place we've been going to in a small town in Southern Oregon. All Mexican-Americans own it andwork there. They may their own chorizo, mix it cheese, put into a cazuela and heat til bubbling. We get it with a mixture of vegetables that have been grilled and whole jalapenos that are dropped in to hot oil til all brown and bumpy. So good. Sun Oct 11 09:55:45 -0700 2009 5094974 131001 c oliver 9 5098208 Care to share where? I live in Southern Oregon and would love a go to. Thanks. Mon Oct 12 17:12:05 -0700 2009 5095007 279577 just_M 10 5101427 It's in Grants Pass on H between 6th and 7th. Taqueria. They probably also serve it at their resto, Si Casa Flores on the Rogue Parkway. We love it especially with a big ole Margarita. Tue Oct 13 20:37:19 -0700 2009 5098208 131001 c oliver 11 5102307 Thanks, it sounds so good I can't wait for our next trip Medford way! Wed Oct 14 08:42:47 -0700 2009 5101427 279577 just_M 5 5094985 Not sayin' it's right, but... At Tex-mex places in Austin if you order "queso" in a restaurant you'll get something resembling the stuff being advertised on the commercial. If you order "chile con queso" you're likely to get it with a layer of spiced ground beef (aka "chili meat") on top. Course then there's Bob Armstrong dip, which adds a layer of guacamole. They're all good food for drunken students. Sun Oct 11 09:43:51 -0700 2009 5094719 58743 alanbarnes 5 5133219 Oh my God I used to love that stuff in college. One of the first things I learned to cook, although that's an oxymoron rather than a redundancy. Mon Oct 26 18:34:02 -0700 2009 5094719 13599 Ellen 4 5181341 I'll have a quesadilla without cheese, please. Sat Nov 14 10:37:44 -0800 2009 5093989 105625 EWSflash 5 5181503 With queso cheese on the side? Sat Nov 14 12:04:45 -0800 2009 5181341 39874 chowser 5 5181704 Yes there is 'queso' (cheese) in the word 'quesadilla', but that does not mean it is a required part of the filling. Particularly in central and southern Mexico, quesadillas are made with freshed rolled disks of (corn) masa. It is easy to fine authentic recipes (e.g. from Kennedy or Bayless) for fillings that do not include any cheese. Crumbled queso fresco may be sprinkled over the top (after cooking). This is a case where a little knowledge of source language is actually misleading. Sat Nov 14 13:58:48 -0800 2009 5181341 12139 paulj 5 5181724 Is that like asking for a hamburger without the smoked pork? Sat Nov 14 14:07:43 -0800 2009 5181341 12139 paulj 2 5094020 You don't want f**king juice? Everyone knows this one. You say mit-out au jus. Sat Oct 10 16:35:00 -0700 2009 5093946 1106797 Parigi 3 5094050 Not every server should be expected to know german, french, and english. I think thew nailed it with a bit of universal language. Sat Oct 10 16:53:49 -0700 2009 5094020 57170 Veggo 3 5094704 Out should be spelled uit, then we can go Dutch together. Sun Oct 11 06:25:30 -0700 2009 5094020 154622 Paulustrious 1 5094666 I've noticed and chuckled at that usage myself. Sun Oct 11 05:56:19 -0700 2009 5091326 23758 Withnail42 1 5099809 The usage is a tautology, the needless repetition of something in different words, as in: widow woman. The word widow implies female, so the following word “woman” is unnecessary. “With au jus” is just as redundant. Clearly the folks who use “with au jus” are not familiar with the French language, and I can understand that. I hear many people who say “No problemo” trying to espeaka de Spanish, but the word is “problema”. I used to correct people, but then figured “What the hell” and let it go. I found it was too boorish of me to correct them on such a niggling detail when they didn’t know (or were even interested in) Spanish to begin with. They same can be said in this case, although the phrase “with au jus” has produced this very entertaining thread! So I’ll keep reading as I sip my Burgundy Red or maybe a nice Chardonnay White..? Tue Oct 13 10:24:39 -0700 2009 5091326 233294 cuccubear 2 5099850 I agree. If everyone had anally exact correctness, life would lean toward boring. Our human foibles add a lot of fun! Tue Oct 13 10:37:15 -0700 2009 5099809 57170 Veggo 3 5100007 They cer-tain-ly do! ! Tue Oct 13 11:21:44 -0700 2009 5099850 233294 cuccubear 3 5100055 I really enjoy learning, but some people take the fun out of it. Tue Oct 13 11:37:13 -0700 2009 5099850 123480 scuzzo 4 5101272 WORD! But learning about a variety of uses for the waffle iron--among many other tips--is what restores the fun to the party. So thank you, scuzzo. Party on! Tue Oct 13 19:25:45 -0700 2009 5100055 249664 kattyeyes 5 5101416 Thank you so much! Your kindness really made my day, in ways you'll never know. Tue Oct 13 20:33:13 -0700 2009 5101272 123480 scuzzo 6 5116277 I've cited you, by name, . . . er soubriquet, on the waffle iron - along with Greygarious. I cooked everything on that thing this summer. Someone asked me if I could still make waffles on it so I even tried that. Boring. Mon Oct 19 21:49:02 -0700 2009 5101416 1093156 cinnamon girl 7 5116337 I don't know you, but I love you! Thanks! Can't stop laughing. Mon Oct 19 22:42:03 -0700 2009 5116277 123480 scuzzo 2 5100436 Actually I'm not sure"Burgundy Red" would count as a tautology as there are white wines (and even a few roses) made within the Burgundy region. Tue Oct 13 13:28:53 -0700 2009 5099809 24492 jumpingmonk 3 5100526 LOL, you know, I wondered about that myself, and figured someone would have something to say about it! :-) Okay, bad example... Tue Oct 13 13:57:20 -0700 2009 5100436 233294 cuccubear 3 5106857 Puligny-Montrachet. Pouilly-Fuisse. Macon. Meursault. All of these are famous white wines from Burgundy. Thu Oct 15 18:50:11 -0700 2009 5100436 1104506 FrankD 1 5099938 Tuna fish MLB Baseball Tue Oct 13 11:01:39 -0700 2009 5091326 19599 susan1353 2 5100021 But if you don't add the 'fish' someone might think you are talking about a cactus fruit, or male-specific medical procedure. :) See the Wiki 'Tuna (disambiguation)' page for details. Tue Oct 13 11:27:43 -0700 2009 5099938 12139 paulj 3 5100549 Yeah, don't you hate when that happens? Tue Oct 13 14:03:29 -0700 2009 5100021 19599 susan1353 3 5100741 OMG - I've wondered about this for years . . . why many people say tuna fish that is. Glad I logged on today. Tue Oct 13 15:22:31 -0700 2009 5100021 1093156 cinnamon girl 4 5105186 This is just speculation, but we may have gotten that from immigrants who transferred it that way from their native tongue. In German, for example, "thunfisch" is one word. Thu Oct 15 08:58:52 -0700 2009 5100741 14386 BobB 5 5106125 I think you're right that it's a Germanic pattern, but it's not a recent development. I am pretty sure the use of tunafish (probably originally tunnyfisc) predates the use of tuna or tunny in English. The names of fish in Old and Middle English all seem to end in "fisc" and then later "fish", just like the names of fish in other Germanic languages often do. Salmon, for example, was originally læxfisc. The first part of each name seems to have originally described a characteristic of the fish. These have mostly been lost, however, as our modern names tend to come from Romance languages, but would initially have kept the "-fish" ending pattern when adopted in to English. Interesting, we dropped our original name for salmon, "læxfisc", close to a thousand years ago, only to have the closely related word "lox" reenter the lexicon in the last century or so. Thu Oct 15 13:48:19 -0700 2009 5105186 36408 danieljdwyer 6 5106140 Well, that came back to us from Yiddish, which got it from the German "lachs." Thu Oct 15 13:52:01 -0700 2009 5106125 14386 BobB 7 5106179 Right, and "læx", "lox", "lachs", and so forth, all ultimately trace back to the Old High German "lahs", and theoretically to a Proto-German word before that, which has been reconstructed as "laxsaz".In any case, I find it a funny coincidence. Thu Oct 15 14:03:31 -0700 2009 5106140 36408 danieljdwyer 1 5102535 When I heard Americanos talking about OJ I thought it was just an abbreviation for 'au jus'. I thought it was rather an odd thing to have for breakfast. Especially the freshly squeezed variety. Wed Oct 14 10:05:23 -0700 2009 5091326 154622 Paulustrious 1 5115723 Thirty years later my wife and I still get a kick out of recalling the restaurant somewhere near Yosemite that had steak "with deliciious Aujus Sauce." (punctuation as originally presented) Mon Oct 19 17:23:28 -0700 2009 5091326 221285 therealdoctorlew 1 5115821 If I were in France and saw a menu item described as "avec au jus," I'd be worried. I live, however, in the USA, and do not expect that everyone speaks every language perfectly. In a French restaurant in the US, I'd expect them to get this right, likewise an Italian restaurant should train their servers how to pronounce "bruschetta." In an American casual dining place, however, I have no pronunciation expectations. Mon Oct 19 18:06:03 -0700 2009 5091326 11995 pikawicca 2 5116180 I'm still not sure how to pronounce "bruschetta". Mon Oct 19 20:51:27 -0700 2009 5115821 123480 scuzzo 3 5116188 I'm almost positive it's "bru-sketta." Is that right, people? Mon Oct 19 20:54:26 -0700 2009 5116180 131001 c oliver 4 5116267 I did look it up, and you are right. But I do hear lots of variations! Mon Oct 19 21:41:11 -0700 2009 5116188 123480 scuzzo 5 5133809 "I do hear lots of variations!" Not in Italy, there's no pronunciation variation re bruschetta Tue Oct 27 04:07:26 -0700 2009 5116267 1106797 Parigi 4 5116284 Yes, in Italian (courtesy of a 3wk immersion course in college): sch = sk sc = sh ch = k ci = chee ce = cheh sce = sheh There's not a sound like "ch" in "church", but the pronunciation of "gg" is close. Double consonants are pronounced with extra stress and a forceful expulsion of air as the following letter is enunciated. Mon Oct 19 21:55:02 -0700 2009 5116188 159317 greygarious 2 5134246 What about a fake Italian place like The Olive Garden where they train their chefs in Tuscany? Would you be put off if they mispronounced "bruschetta"? Mr Taster Tue Oct 27 08:10:57 -0700 2009 5115821 17579 Mr Taster 3 5134321 "Would you be put off if they mispronounced "bruschetta"?" Not at all because I can't think of any reason for being there unless I am kidnapped, in which case I wouldn't be put off by any mispronunciation. Tue Oct 27 08:38:07 -0700 2009 5134246 1106797 Parigi 1 5129503 A couple of days ago, I heard Guy Fieri on his "Big Bite" show saying he was going to make "au jus gravy". The remote just kept flipping.. Sun Oct 25 11:31:31 -0700 2009 5091326 1104506 FrankD 2 5130474 I just noticed at the grocery a half dozen different au jus gravy or sauce mixes - most noticeably "Johnny's French Dip Concentrated Au Jus Sauce," That's a pretty clear sign that 'au jus' has taken on, in English, an identity that goes beyond the French roots. Sun Oct 25 18:58:03 -0700 2009 5129503 12139 paulj 3 5130558 I prefer the mixes made by Paula's sister, Phyllis Deen ;-D. Sun Oct 25 19:36:22 -0700 2009 5130474 159317 greygarious 4 5132157 It took me a sec, but I got it...! Mon Oct 26 12:00:31 -0700 2009 5130558 13700 ricepad 2 5177629 (To FrankD) Not only does he go on and on about "au jus gravy", Frank, he also incessantly refers to "the au jus". I really don't like to be petty, but....Aaaaaaaggghhhhhhhh. Does FN have no technical advisors? Thu Nov 12 20:28:30 -0800 2009 5129503 1104013 Normandie 3 5181549 Sure they do: Guy Fieri, for example.... Sat Nov 14 12:38:30 -0800 2009 5177629 101727 brandywiner 1 5179636 Thank you to all..you have managed to mix my two favourite topics...food and etymology. I don't think I have enjoyed or laughed at a thread on this board as much as I have for this one. My position aligns with those who note that langauge is not static and that adopting a word or phrase from one language into another means that the word or phrase loses the rules that apply from it's original language and becomes subject to the rules of its adopted language. As such, "au jus" becomes an english phrase and it becomes proper to use the English rules. "With "au jus" seem perfectly fine to me as an English speaker but, frankly, the food snob in me - and the influence of a bilingual country (Canada) - means I will never depart from simply "au jus". Now: intra language doubling up drives me crazy. The "PIN numbers" and "ATM machines"" etc are examples of poor speech and should be grounds for charging someone. Fri Nov 13 13:29:03 -0800 2009 5091326 74367 foodiesnorth 2 5179661 So you say PI number and AT machine? Or just PIN and ATM? Fri Nov 13 13:36:24 -0800 2009 5179636 116513 linguafood 3 5179665 If foodiesnorth is like me, (s)he'll just say "Enter your PIN when using the ATM." Fri Nov 13 13:38:19 -0800 2009 5179661 14386 BobB 4 5179681 I am, indeed, like you...I use my PIN at the ATM. Fri Nov 13 13:45:09 -0800 2009 5179665 74367 foodiesnorth 5 5179948 ditto Fri Nov 13 15:46:31 -0800 2009 5179681 131001 c oliver 6 5180427 I don't. I use my pin at the A T M. Fri Nov 13 19:56:45 -0800 2009 5179948 12139 paulj 7 5180588 Straight pin or safety pin? Fri Nov 13 22:00:39 -0800 2009 5180427 131001 c oliver 8 5190984 Re PIN, ATM and au jus... Go ahead and beat me up, but I find redundant nouns much less of an eye/ear sore than double prepositions. With with. Isn't that yucko? Wed Nov 18 06:42:31 -0800 2009 5180588 1106797 Parigi 9 5191069 It's almost as bad as taking toddler speak and changing the final y to a final o. Wed Nov 18 07:08:44 -0800 2009 5190984 36408 danieljdwyer 3 5179944 Surely you know PI is a number? Transcendental, man. Fri Nov 13 15:43:32 -0800 2009 5179661 154622 Paulustrious 4 5179953 pi not PI. :) Fri Nov 13 15:47:53 -0800 2009 5179944 131001 c oliver 5 5180439 This is giving me a headache. I don't think I have a PIN, and I've never used an ATM. I must be a dinosaur. And please, let's not bring pi into it - my headache will become a migraine. Fri Nov 13 20:02:03 -0800 2009 5179953 11995 pikawicca 6 5180589 Good heavens, T rex! Fri Nov 13 22:01:52 -0800 2009 5180439 131001 c oliver 4 5180949 314159265 is jfood's pi-number that he inputs at-machine. Sat Nov 14 07:12:51 -0800 2009 5179944 11290 jfood 5 5189223 Careful when you;re traveling - many European ATMs will not accept PINs that are longer than four digits. Tue Nov 17 12:19:54 -0800 2009 5180949 14386 BobB 4 5181186 Totally, dude. Sat Nov 14 09:21:18 -0800 2009 5179944 116513 linguafood 3 5180945 I have had a revelation. It all depends on the capitalization. As soon as it loses those big letters it moves from being an abbreviation to a word. Its constituent parts, like the atoms in a molecule, are now irrelevant. So I can have my pin number and foodiesnorth can have a PIN. I suppose this distinction is a little less obvious when speaking. (Unless you are DEATH in the Discworld) Analysis of an word-abbreviation changes its meaning as a result of semantic saturation. Schroedinger would have approved of the fact I let the cat out of the bag. Sat Nov 14 07:09:17 -0800 2009 5179661 154622 Paulustrious 4 5181258 My all time favorite grammatical contradiction came to me courtesy of a school essay from my childhood "since the mid twentieth century, English has increasingly become the international lingua franca of commerce." Sat Nov 14 09:50:37 -0800 2009 5180945 24492 jumpingmonk 5 5181930 I think /lingua franca/, being a Latin phrase, is itself contradictory! Sat Nov 14 15:47:04 -0800 2009 5181258 24055 Atahualpa 6 5182086 I kept my mouth shut because I wasn't quite sure what a French tongue was Sat Nov 14 16:57:48 -0800 2009 5181930 154622 Paulustrious 4 5191229 "Death isn't on line. If he was, there would be a sudden drop in the death rate. Although it'd be interesting to see if he'd post things like: DON'T YOU THINK I SOUND LIKE JAMES EARL JONES?" - Terry Pratchett In keeping with the topic, I will often hesitate to order something if I'm not sure how to pronounce it. Or, if I can shorten the description, I'll ask the waiter, "I'm having a hard time deciding between the pork and the salmon. Which would you recommend?" Then, I hope that they'll say the whole name of the dish and I can learn something. Wed Nov 18 07:53:24 -0800 2009 5180945 88544 Ima Wurdibitsch 1 5181256 I Love This Thread! Now, what do you say about people who use "au jus" when speaking about vegetables? Sat Nov 14 09:50:08 -0800 2009 5091326 75332 Gio 2 5196928 I think they line up behind people who talk about vegetable tartares and carpaccios. But I don't really mind those transpositions. Fri Nov 20 13:20:46 -0800 2009 5181256 10074 Caitlin McGrath 1 5181574 Soup du jour of the day! (Probably already appeared 1,000 times above, but I haven't read through them all.) Sat Nov 14 12:49:02 -0800 2009 5091326 45208 somervilleoldtimer 1 5181747 Ugh. Just read a resto review in the New Yorker by Andrea Thompson, saying something was served 'with au jus sauce'. I always thought the NYer had higher standards... Sat Nov 14 14:20:36 -0800 2009 5091326 116513 linguafood 2 5181840 In the last several years I have noticed several errors in punctuation, spelling, and syntax, so I am not surprised. I let my subscription run out last month. Did she think the food was awesome or "yummo"? Sat Nov 14 15:02:08 -0800 2009 5181747 159317 greygarious 3 5181848 Haha, no. I generally like her reviews, but that just rubbed me wrong. I guess I can overlook the occasional errors if I could get over the weird double vowel ¨ thingee the NYer does... Sat Nov 14 15:06:08 -0800 2009 5181840 116513 linguafood 2 5182083 I would have thought so , too. Sat Nov 14 16:56:39 -0800 2009 5181747 105625 EWSflash 3 5188641 I came late to this post, but I have to add one of my favorites: Years ago, in a restaurant in the Poconos, they had "celery au blu" on the menu. Tue Nov 17 09:42:38 -0800 2009 5182083 11615 kagoo 4 5189353 One of my mom's favorite food stories was when she went to Antione's in New Orleans (the Oysters Rockefeller place) and one of the liasted appetizers was "Fromage du creme du Phillidelphie" curios she order it and was served....Philadelphia brand cream cheese! I actually didnt beleive this story when she told it but she saved the menu and she's right that's what they wrote. Tue Nov 17 12:58:57 -0800 2009 5188641 24492 jumpingmonk 5 5189374 One of my less-favorite French restaurants in Boston (you know who you are, PRB!) offers a variation on paté de foie gras prepared "au microonde." Being in the communications business I know that microonde is French for microwave, so I asked the server - sure enough, it's prepared in the microwave. Why the chef insists on bragging about this on the menu is beyond me (the server, too, was mystified by that). It wasn't even very good - creamy but bland, with only a hint of foie gras flavor. Tue Nov 17 13:05:41 -0800 2009 5189353 14386 BobB 6 5190156 Somehow, I can just see someone going home and telling a friend that they had the "patty de foy grass o my-kroon-dee", and that it was just great.... Tue Nov 17 18:06:03 -0800 2009 5189374 1104506 FrankD 7 5190345 no reason it shouldn't be Tue Nov 17 19:53:17 -0800 2009 5190156 135229 thew 1 5197440 While you have a point (and the number of responses you have received suggests that it is a valid one), for my part, I can think of very few things less important that this. I favour substance over style. Fri Nov 20 18:24:45 -0800 2009 5091326 10258 Fydeaux 1 5209842 CH itself has a "most popular" video titled "how to sous vide an egg at home". Will a recipe for "the best au jus" be far behind? Thu Nov 26 10:55:24 -0800 2009 5091326 1106797 Parigi