658183 Thu Oct 08 21:43:50 -0700 2009 41 29 Not About Food 0 5090191 Have you ever been refused a meal at a restaurant because you have a food allergy? I had an interesting experience this evening. My mom made a res at a restaurant for my birthday. We had a lovely meal, but noticed the service was a little odd from the get go. She told me that when she'd initially called she told them I had a peanut allergy. They were reluctant to serve me, and cited insurance reasons. She talked with the chef who said the only peanut in the restaurant at the time was peanut oil, and she assured him that my allergist approved foods fried in peanut oil. So, he allowed the reservation. I was a little surprised at how gingerly or nervously everyone from the hostess to the chef and our server treated us, and when we left, I realized why. There was a message on Mom's voice mail, left a couple hours before the 6 pm res from someone other than the chef at the restaurant. I'm not sure what relation she is to the chef and owner, to be honest. Basically, she was trying to cancel the res at the last minute, saying they wouldn't serve me for liability reasons. Does anyone with allergies have thoughts on this experience? I was taken aback. We had a great meal despite the awkward, nervous moments, but I don't think I'd go back after this. I don't want to scare anyone off this place, so I won't name it. I just want to discuss the more general topic, rather than dissecting the finer points of liability law or whether allergies are real. I know it's a difficult subject for chefs, but this last minute attempt at cancellation did take me by surprise. I'm a little glad she didn't check the voice mail earlier! Have you ever been treated like you were made of explosive material because of a food allergy? Lost a res last minute or when you asked questions about the menu? Thu Oct 08 21:43:50 -0700 2009 24126 amyzan 1 5090201 Short answer - no. Wife cannot do bi-valves, and I always call, especially if we plan on a chef's tasting, or similar. I'm also beginning to believe that restaurants around the globe might not share info, as we can walk into a place in the UK, that we've never dined before, and they'll say, "we understand that you cannot do bi-valves. We've told chef, and he's/she's got a treat for you." Just flat blows me away sometimes. I have yet to encounter any restaurant that would not accommodate her food allergies, especially with some sort of notice. Sorry to hear about your experinces. Hunt Thu Oct 08 21:52:06 -0700 2009 5090191 11329 Bill Hunt 1 5090207 Well, the peanut allergy has gotten a lot of press, and I can understand why some might shy away. There have been instances of folk wishing to sue restaurants that served peanuts, because their child walked past the al fresco seating, but across the street, and suffered. It seems to be rich fodder for law suits, however far the stretch. Living in a law suit-happy society, I cannot say that I blame a restauranteur. Still, as per my other post, we've never had an issue, and I always try to confide the one issue (with us) for the meal. They always make good and she usually gets a much larger portion of some courses, than do I. In a heavily litigious society, one has to be on their toes, all of the time. Hunt Thu Oct 08 22:00:09 -0700 2009 5090191 11329 Bill Hunt 2 5090227 Yeah, Hunt, this is part of why I've decided not to go back. I didn't want to make my post any longer, but this is a locally/chef owned place and if he's that nervous, I just don't want to freak him and his staff out again! I'm not a litigious person, and I take responsibility for my health, but he doesn't know me from Eve, to coin a phrase. I just felt so yucky, it being my birthday, wanting to really enjoy the meal, and discovering after that Uh, oh, even though we checked beforehand, they were still having a problem with my special need! I don't want him to lose his restaurant, either, but he seemed so anxious I just wouldn't put him (or my dining companions) through that again, even for his wonderful food. Thu Oct 08 22:20:34 -0700 2009 5090207 24126 amyzan 3 5121523 Sorry that it came down to this, especially on your birthday - bummer! We just got back from London, and I had forgotten to mention my wife's bi-valve thing, especially at one restaurant, where we intended to do the chef's tasting. My bad! In both cases, they had her in their dossier, and knew. They had made arrangements, especially with the chef's tasting spot. Now, we had dined there before, and I had done my preliminary work better on those instances. There were no problems and the sommelier was ready at both to change gears a bit, to accommodate her different courses, from mine. [BTW - I got to taste here "non-scallop" dishes, but she could not taste mine... ] I'm sorry for your cited incident. On one hand, I guess that I can understand the fear of a restauranteur, regarding food allergies. Still, it can cramp an otherwise lovely evening. Hunt Wed Oct 21 19:36:19 -0700 2009 5090227 11329 Bill Hunt 1 5090472 Jfood with a nut allergy. When he makes a reservation on OpenTable he always places this in the comments section. ANd when the server arrives he also reminds him/her. Yet it is frightening to see how absolutely inattentive or just plain stupid certain restaurants are. Jfood has received butternut squash soup that has pistachios on top, cake with nuts as a garnishment, as well as an amuse bouche surrounded by cashews. And he wishes he had $1 for every time the server has said, "Oh it is just a garnishment." Newsflash, noone told the histimines in jfood's bloodstream. On the positive side >90% of the time the server is aware of it, or they will say, "let me check with the chef," or some other comforting words. And a few times they have told jfood that there may be a trace and they recommend something else. Bottom line is that each person with an allergy needs to have their own diligence. And by the way, as jfood has stated before, grabbing an epi-pen and shoving it in his leg as his face starts turning red is not good for the jfood, other patrons and the bill/tip. Fri Oct 09 05:30:36 -0700 2009 5090191 11290 jfood 2 5097964 Yeah, I would love it if servers might view my specialness as a potential for a bigger tip, but no, most of the time I'm just a PITA. I reward good service, but I suppose there are diners who don't after asking for a little extra help. Mon Oct 12 15:36:49 -0700 2009 5090472 24126 amyzan 3 5113405 So are you saying this is a common experience for you? Sun Oct 18 20:13:07 -0700 2009 5097964 131001 c oliver 4 5118215 No, many servers are gracious despite my special needs, and I tip accordingly. But there are umpteen little ways servers communicate (mostly with body language) that I'm a PITA. I'd bet you know what I'm talking about, c oliver. Tue Oct 20 15:11:50 -0700 2009 5113405 24126 amyzan 5 5118250 Nope, I don't. Tue Oct 20 15:26:44 -0700 2009 5118215 131001 c oliver 6 5121672 Sighing, looking away or above my head instead of continuing eye contact, shrugging shoulders, talking to other diners about me instead of talking to me, those are the behaviors, c oliver, since you press the point. Wed Oct 21 20:35:22 -0700 2009 5118250 24126 amyzan 7 5121690 *I* never pressed any such point. And, in my 62 years, have never had such treatment. When I've had any issues to deal with, I've always been dealt with appropriately. Wed Oct 21 20:43:30 -0700 2009 5121672 131001 c oliver 8 5122416 Okay, I see that you live in NorCal, so I shouldn't have made the assumption we have similar experiences. I live in the Midwest, and people here have less formal norms of behavior, excepting in fine dining where there is more training and/or experience. I generally find that when I'm polite about special needs, the server follows suit. There have been notable exceptions, however, and we don't usually return to those restaurants unless we find another server with whom we are simpatico. Thu Oct 22 07:41:14 -0700 2009 5121690 24126 amyzan 9 5122448 I spent my first 30 years in Atlanta with a VERY proper mother :) I've also enjoyed reading some of Bill Hunt's ways of dealing with slipups on the part of servers. Wine-related but universal. Dealing with issues as quickly as they arise and in a quiet and polite way is the gist of it. Thu Oct 22 07:51:10 -0700 2009 5122416 131001 c oliver 10 5122523 Yeah, I think part of my problem is higher expectations than the usual diner has here. I grew up in central Kentucky, where there was more emphasis on manners. I'm just not as accustomed to the Midwestern informality, which has its charms unless there are conflicts to resolve. Its humiliating to have servers sigh, raise their voices, stalk off, or treat our table in otherwise conspicuous ways, just because we asked for a little extra service or communication with the kitchen. I'll look up Bill Hunt; thanks! Thu Oct 22 08:07:43 -0700 2009 5122448 24126 amyzan 11 5125954 I've lived in the midwest for 30 years, and have only once encountered the boorish behavior you describe on the part of a server. I reported to the MOD and never saw that server again. Fri Oct 23 13:28:35 -0700 2009 5122523 11995 pikawicca 12 5126259 I believe that if you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem. Fri Oct 23 15:36:42 -0700 2009 5125954 131001 c oliver 10 5126784 With the fewest of exceptions, a sign and a whisper goes a very long way. If it does not, then the ladies and gentlemen should leave the table and discuss the issue in private, out of earhshot of the guests, and of other diners. I have never had to escalate things beyond this point, and hope that I never do. Hunt Fri Oct 23 21:01:05 -0700 2009 5122448 11329 Bill Hunt 11 5126797 Thanks for weighing in, Hunt. Fri Oct 23 21:06:41 -0700 2009 5126784 131001 c oliver 2 5120469 Honestly tho, jfood, has jfood considered himself lucky it's only 10% that he encounters the stupidity? It also might be a simple case of ignorance where the staff has not been trained to deal with these situations correctly. It's kind of hard for the point to hit home when you are oblivious to what could happen if a highly allergic person comes in contact with a nut. I have an in-law who weillneed the stick, and then have to be rushed to an emergency room if they come in contact with any tree nuts in their food. Some servers might think that "ok, so if there's no nuts sprinkled on top of the salad, or cake, or whathaveyou, then everything's ok" Until walnut oil is used as a flavoring, or almond extract is used, or an Indian dish with ground nuts is not revealed." I'd sugeest, when going to a new joint (not to jfood, but to anyone with a nut allergy) to speak with the server about what will happen to your body if you encounter a nut, even if it is not overtly displayed on top of the food. The server can then relay this to the cooks pretty quickly, just to make sure that anything you order doesn't have any hidden nuts in any of the sauces, etc. I've seen it happen a few times where this in law will non-chalantly ask the server to make sure there are no nuts in any of the food they order, and then 5 minutes after the salad, we're on our way to the hospital because of undiscolsed walnut oil in the vinaigrette, or almond flavoring in a cake that you'd never expect. Until I actually SAW it firsthand, I had no idea it could be so bad. Just a thought. REALLY stress this issue with the restaurant. Wed Oct 21 12:50:10 -0700 2009 5090472 111530 gordeaux 3 5120640 Thanks G. Fortunately for jfood the nut allergy is not life threatening. In fact he is halfway through some tests that may eliminate some of the nuts from his allergy list. Wed Oct 21 13:53:04 -0700 2009 5120469 11290 jfood 1 5100290 i have an nut allergy similar to jfood, and have never had a problem like this. A couple times I've had some clueless or inattentive server bring me something with a nut "garnish" but they are generally very nice about taking it back and replacing with one w/o the garnish. I would not go back either, if it made them that nervous. what a bummer for your birthday! Tue Oct 13 12:48:59 -0700 2009 5090191 65780 jujuthomas 1 5101265 While not an allergy, my wife is restricted from any kind of alcohol. She has non-alcoholic liver disease. We've gotten some very strange looks, mostly from young servers, when we asked if a dish is cooked with wine. If we have the opportunity to speak with the chef, there's never a problem. The other issue with this is, since we're always trying new recipes, finding a way to eliminate the alcohol without destroying the taste of a new dish. Tue Oct 13 19:21:51 -0700 2009 5090191 92091 bucksguy14 2 5101311 Juju -- with respect to getting a replacement dish -- I would have them leave the "garnished" dish and bring another. non-garnished one, to be sure that the replacement isn't just the original dish with the garnish removed. I've seen this happen and was shocked. The near "victim" was my nephew with a serious tree-nut allergy and his mother spotted the same piece of pie when it came back out of the kitchen. Tue Oct 13 19:36:29 -0700 2009 5101265 102895 Cheflambo 3 5101340 i never thought of that! thanks for the tip. Tue Oct 13 19:49:55 -0700 2009 5101311 65780 jujuthomas 3 5101357 Yes it happens a lot. Tue Oct 13 20:00:11 -0700 2009 5101311 11290 jfood 4 5101837 clearly not enough people are familiar with the concept of cross contamination! ugh! Wed Oct 14 05:23:55 -0700 2009 5101357 65780 jujuthomas 1 5102410 First of all I agree, this restaurant is not to be given another chance. Wish you'd give the name so that all us other folks with nut allergies can avoid it too. If you're given something with a nut garnish, make them bring you a fresh one before you give the "garnished" one back. My son has tree nut allergies and we always quiz the server and always ask when making the reservation if they can accommodate the allergy. Most places are very good about trying to work with you, and some are surprisingly good at it. Times are tough, if they don't want your business there are plenty of other places out there. Wed Oct 14 09:18:49 -0700 2009 5090191 180942 meinNYC 1 5109733 <<She talked with the chef who said the only peanut in the restaurant at the time was peanut oil, and she assured him that my allergist approved foods fried in peanut oil. So, he allowed the reservation.>> I think that you were treated like <<explosive material" not because of a food allergy but because of conflicting information/instructions to the chef. I find it very disconcerting to hear that you are allowed to have peanut oil. You may want to get a second opinion on that one. I am speculating that this bothered the chef too - after he had a chance to think about it. If you are really allergic to peanuts, then it would follow that you cannot have peanut oil. There is no way to know how refined or purified the oil is and whether you will have a reaction to it until you do! He may have figured that you were not really allergic to peanuts and that you were perhaps going to be difficult for him at some level because you were willing to eat peanut oil. Or, that if you were really allergic to peanuts that you could have an allergic to the foods friedn in peanut oil. Just a thought. I vote with the chef on this one! Fri Oct 16 22:14:11 -0700 2009 5090191 56406 Bite Me 2 5109852 Without getting technical or scientific, Bite Me, I can allay your concerns just as I did the chef's. People who are allergic to legumes are allergic to the PROTEIN, not the fat component of the vegetable. I cannot eat beans, peas, peanuts, miso, tofu, etc. but peanut oil is so highly refined in this country, that it doesn't present a problem at all. Now, if I was a world traveler, I would probably have to avoid peanut oil in countries where there may be varying degrees of refining of the fat from the proteins. Science about allergies and sensitivities is changing. Of course, there is room for debate on this issue. There are the old line of allergists out there who say total avoidance is the only way to go. We learned in the 90's that this approach often lead to multiple chemical sensitivity, not so good. Most allergists have come to understand, though, that desensitization under carefully controlled circumstances except for all but the most severe of allergies is a safe and effective approach. But, when I posted here about this situation, I completely expected someone to question my and my allergist's opinions. That's why I qualified my story so much. The chef showed me his level of ignorance on allergies when he came to the table to check that almonds were okay. Tree nuts aren't botanically related to peanuts, and are a complete other family of allergens. I understand his concern in the face of such ignorance. He owns his restaurant, and in this economy, a lawsuit could likely undo him. That is why I didn't name him or the restaurant in this post. I respect his work and take full responsibility for my health. He doesn't know either of these facts when choosing to serve me, however. I recognize the position I put him in, but was a little surprised at the handling of the situation. The restaurant's approach seemed unprofessional. Sat Oct 17 04:02:01 -0700 2009 5109733 24126 amyzan 3 5124434 Peanuts and tree nuts aren't closely related botanically, but the proteins are similar and a lot of people are allergic to both peanuts and tree nuts. My daughter has a peanut allergy, and the allergist advised us to avoid tree nuts as well, even though her tree nut skin tests were negative. Maybe they had a bad experience around allergies with another customer recently, and that's what made them edgy. Thu Oct 22 22:08:20 -0700 2009 5109852 138816 jlafler 4 5124839 I am under the impression that the phenomenon you describe is more a result of processing than of the proteins being similar. I'd be interested to read more about the proteins being similar if you have a link or other info. Fri Oct 23 06:41:58 -0700 2009 5124434 24126 amyzan 4 5133730 Like jlafler's daughter, I am allergic to peanuts and i avoid tree nuts as a precaution. That may not be technically necessary but it is recommended by so many that i just do it! I miss all these yummy things - now I'm getting hungry. Like someone else mentioned, I wait to bring up my allergy if and when i may order somehthing that coudl cause a problem. I ask, the server asks the kitchen, and then we're good - such as wehther the french fries are in p-nut oil. Easier to deal with it on the spot. Tue Oct 27 00:55:53 -0700 2009 5124434 56406 Bite Me 3 5126975 I knew someone with a peanut allergy who DIED from eating an eggroll cooked in peanut oil, so yes, some people who are allergic to peanuts cannot have things cooked in the oil. This was at a Chinese restaurant in New Jersey, not in a developing nation. Sat Oct 24 01:52:06 -0700 2009 5109852 86221 lulubelle 4 5129179 Sorry to hear about your friend, so sad. Sun Oct 25 07:56:19 -0700 2009 5126975 24126 amyzan 4 5133731 That's just horrible and sad. I am so sorry to hear this. Tue Oct 27 00:56:38 -0700 2009 5126975 56406 Bite Me 4 5134224 that is so sad! and scary. that's why I carry an epi pen, because you just never know. Tue Oct 27 08:02:00 -0700 2009 5126975 65780 jujuthomas 5 5134728 It's a really horrible story. She was the friend of a good friend, this is back in middle-school and she ate the eggroll and realized that she was having a reaction, so she dragged my friend to the bathroom with her because she was going to make herself throw up. Being 13, she did not want to cause a disturbance and make fuss, so they didn't tell any of the adults at the table what was happening. By the time my friend went out to get help, she was in aniphilactic (sp) shock. They took her to the hospital but she didn't make it. It's a really horrible story, and a lesson to parents to make sure their children understand how serious their allergies can be. (and a lesson on the stupidity of 13-year-olds.) Tue Oct 27 10:36:48 -0700 2009 5134224 86221 lulubelle 6 5134799 Wow. we have friends whose kids have food allergies, and they are so wonderfully matter-of-fact about it. In fact my best friends 3 year old can also list her father's food sensitivities! Tue Oct 27 10:54:16 -0700 2009 5134728 65780 jujuthomas 1 5110899 I don't know, amyzan. I've never had this kind of experience, but I don't tell restaurants about my allergies in advance. I tell them when I get there, if I think it applies***, but I've never had a restaurant flip out on me about it before. (***One of my food allergies is to shellfish. I happen to love fish and chips, which I can eat--however, not if it's been in a fryer that has had fried clams, etc., in it.) The thing is, a restaurant needs to be prepared to handle these matters as matter of course as they do food sanitation. That is part of what protects them from spurious lawsuits. (Although I don't blame them from protecting themselves from sue-happy types, at all.) My point is just that well run establishments know how to deal with this, by advising patrons in printed materials, by being ready to answer patrons' questions and following simple precautions. No restaurant needs to be turned upside down by patrons with allergies. JMO. Sat Oct 17 15:27:20 -0700 2009 5090191 1104013 Normandie 2 5113227 I'm wondering if this couple is on the verge of closing with their restaurant, Normandie. There was an article earlier this year where the chef said he wasn't making much in the way of profits. Apparently, they're living off his wife's tips, and I figured out she's the one who left the message on Mom's voice mail a couple hours before our celebratory meal. I'm uncovering a rather sad story by delving into this restaurant's press. It's so terrible that passionate people cooking local food are suffering so badly during this economy. Sun Oct 18 18:50:44 -0700 2009 5110899 24126 amyzan 3 5114503 It is, amyzan, and it's sad to see any independent restaurant fail, because you know at some point there were hopes and dreams behind it. But it's such a tough business and--though I'm not making any specific assumptions about these owners you're telling us about--many people go into it unprepared, in some way. Either they don't have enough money backing it, or enough of their own money saved up to carry them through the establishment period, or they don't understand bookkeeping, or human resources and human resources laws...whatever it might be. I hope in some way things work out for this couple. Not only is it sad to see a small business fail, but it's not good for the neighborhood or the workers who would be displaced. Mon Oct 19 10:23:08 -0700 2009 5113227 1104013 Normandie