656290 Thu Oct 01 08:41:38 -0700 2009 30 31 Home Cooking 0 5072079 Hello A question for any of you that has made JC's BB. I'm curious as to what wine you used. I made the BB yesterday. First time I've actually followed a step by step recipe like this but wanted to make it one time exactly as written in my Mothers old 'The French Chef Cookbook.' The BB turned out good. Much nicer than my usual throw it together beef stew with a splash of red wine, but I think it would have been even better with the proper red wine. I'm not much of a drinker of red wine, I do cook with it but usually in small amounts at a time, so the flavor of the wine in my dishes have never been as noticeable as it was in this recipe. I left the selection of a good red wine to use up my DH. His choice was an an Australian Red labeled [yellow tail] SHIRAZ. I feel my DHs selection was far too bitter/strong for this dish. I knew the wine flavor would be more prominant as the recipe does call for 3 cups, and was prepared for that, but I was not prepared for the almost bitter after taste. I believe a mellower red or tastier red would have been a better selection . JCs recipe is well worth taking the time to do the step by step as it is good, and I will make it again, but, I'd like to improve on it before I do. So, any suggestions from all you red wine lovers out there would be muchly appreciated! Thanks so much Joyfull Thu Oct 01 08:41:38 -0700 2009 65032 Joyfull 1 5072277 Bourguinion calls for Burgundy, as the name implies. Thu Oct 01 09:44:27 -0700 2009 5072079 19279 phillyjazz 2 5072873 Well I'm not sure what happened to my last entry, but.. phillyjazz, I found your reply a bit odd. As in almost implying, boy are you stupid odd. I not a wine connosisseur, I don't drink red wine or "burgundy" wine, I don't really know the difference in the two at all. If wine comes into my home its from friends or because my DH decided to purchase a bottle. I use whatever is left for cooking as I've never had to use much of it. With this special dish I do. Hence my original question as to what favorite red wine or "burgundy" does everyone prefer for cooking? I was merely looking for advice, a name, a brand thats good, as in better than the one I used. I do thank you for taking the time to reply though.. Thu Oct 01 12:58:11 -0700 2009 5072277 65032 Joyfull 3 5072914 Hi Joyfull. Burgundy is a region in France, and the red wine made there is from Pinot Noir grapes. It's not cheap, although it can be wonderful. I don't usually use "real" Burgundy when I make BB (too expensive), however, if you'd like to try it and if there is a Trader Joe's store near you, you can pick up a Burgundy there fairly reasonably (not sure of the brand name, but the folks at TJ will help you). I do always use the Pinot Noir varietal when I make BB; sometimes I use a Pinot Noir from Oregon such as Duck Pond. You can also find French wines labeled vin d'pays Pinot Noir (vin d'pays means table wines, and they are reasonably priced) ; that's another option I often choose. I'd steer away from Pinot Noirs made in CA; to my palate they taste a bit plastic. Hope this helps :-) Thu Oct 01 13:13:55 -0700 2009 5072873 18072 Niki in Dayton 4 5072988 Niki has some good suggestions. OP, basically what you're looking for is a wine lower in alcohol and overtly fruity ripeness, and higer acidity. In general, this leads you to Old World wines, like those from France, Italy, Spain, etc. Try to stay away from most offerings from warmer climates (Australia, CA)- I find them too jammy, juicy and high in alcohol to be much good for cooking. The Yellow Tail Shiraz would be one of the worst wines you could've made this dish with, from varietal to maker (it's pure gasoline to begin with). You'll like the dish ten times better next time you make it. If you don't already have a trusted local wine vendor, and I'm pretty sure you don't, now is a good time to befriend one. Simply go to your local wine store and ask questions. People who work in wine stores love to talk about wine- they're not in it for the $8 an hour. It's hard to give specific rec's here because availability varies greatly from state to state. Thu Oct 01 13:37:54 -0700 2009 5072914 92744 invinotheresverde 4 5073138 Thanks Niki I'm in Canada so no TJ's. We've got government liquor stores, a few private liquor stores plus private beer and wine stores. I just did a quick search on our govt liquor store website and found the Duck Pond from Oregon, plus other Pinot Noirs. I'll scan through those in a bit too. I also found a fairly reasonable Bourgogne Pinot Noir from Burgundy France that looked interesting and wondered if you knew anything about it? You can view it here.. http://www.bcliquorstores.com/product/341875 Thanks again Niki Joyfull Thu Oct 01 15:21:21 -0700 2009 5072914 65032 Joyfull 5 5073784 That seems a little expensive for cooking Joyfull . . . but would probably good to have with it. You're on the right track - just go with something from the same shelf, but cheaper. I just cast around till I find something that works and stick to it. Invino gives good advice. This is pretty much the approach I take. Thu Oct 01 21:19:52 -0700 2009 5073138 1093156 cinnamon girl 5 5075600 Actually, if you're looking to make BB with the "real thing," you're looking at the right wine. Maison Louis Jadot is a very well regarded winemaker, and they have a large portfolio, including some very impressive Grand Cru. The wine you are looking at is a "Bourgogne," - which essentially means it is the base level of red wine from the Burgundy region (as opposed to the more expensive "Village" designations, or Premier or Grand Crus). This does not mean it's not a good wine -- it should show a lot more refinement than many American Pinots (as well it should fo $26) and will be light years better than Yellowtail Shiraz. If you're OK with spending this much, it's actually a great choice for BB. Fri Oct 02 18:04:51 -0700 2009 5073138 10814 sbp 6 5075703 Nice description, sbp! Yes, there's no question it would be great in "le boeuf" but, as we both point out, kinda pricey for cooking, n'est ce pas? I was thinking Joyfull could buy that one to drink and look on the same shelf (of Burgundies), for something to cook with - b/c you use most, if not all, of the bottle in the stew. I know, I know ... cook w the same wine you're going to drink ... in the perfect world, I guess. Or cook w the Jadot and find a nice Romanee Conti for quaffing . . . lol . . . and invite us! Fri Oct 02 19:45:41 -0700 2009 5075600 1093156 cinnamon girl 7 5076108 I was originally thinking the same thing - $30 is over the top to use for cooking. But, you never know the situation of the OP. Also, it's not as decadent as opening up a Charmes Chambertin! You've got to figure in Burgundy, the Bougogne AC would be their "go to" bottle for cooking. Of course, there are good Bourgogne AC's in the $12-15 range, but they are few and far between and apparently not available in British Columbia. Sat Oct 03 06:16:32 -0700 2009 5075703 10814 sbp 1 5073363 I seem to remember that on The French Chef, Julia recommended a California "mountain" wine before french wines were widely found in the US. These are almost always Zinfandel, look for something labeled old vine. Thu Oct 01 17:13:57 -0700 2009 5072079 203391 rockfish42 2 5073716 Most of today's Zins are big daddies, with lots of ripeness and lots of alcohol. They're not really much like the Zinfandels of yesteryear. Julia would not cook with the bulk of today's Zins. <This is not to say that balanced Zins don't exist, you just have to know what you're looking for. The OP seems to not have much wine knowledge.> Thu Oct 01 20:29:08 -0700 2009 5073363 92744 invinotheresverde 1 5073751 Duck Pond does an excellent Pinot Noir that wood work with this dish. Thu Oct 01 20:52:22 -0700 2009 5072079 25251 hankstramm 1 5073831 I'd point you to another more affordable Oregon pinot if you want to go that route-- can you get O'Reilly? It's about $15 US. Or can you get Erath? I'm sure a small local wine shop could hook you up with inexpensive (French) Burgundy. Thu Oct 01 21:56:20 -0700 2009 5072079 64882 Vetter 1 5073878 I'd recommend using a french burgundy, to adhere to the origins of the dish (as phillyjazz says, the dish originated in the burgundy region of france). French burgundies tend to be lighter in body and higher in acidity so if you used a very full-bodied fruit forward Australian shiraz it would tend to change the character of the dish. Some new world pinot noirs tend to be more fruit forward than the french versions. I'm not sure about BC but in Alberta you can get relatively inexpensive french wines from the burgundy region, I would recommend those. Given that boeuf bourgignon originated as everyday fare I don't expect it was ever intended to be made with a grand cru. Thu Oct 01 22:29:00 -0700 2009 5072079 69044 hsk 1 5073930 1 (750 ml.) bottle good dry red wine such as Cote du Rhone or Pinot Noir **** That's what Ina Garten says http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/ina-garten/beef-bourguignon-recipe/index.html Fri Oct 02 00:03:34 -0700 2009 5072079 1105778 zzDan 2 5075241 I usually go to Trader Joe's and get a Cote du Rhone. They always seem to have several choices for under $10, sometimes as little as $5-7. I can attest to the yumminess of the results. No, Cotes du Rhone is not Burgundy, but I just can't justify paying more for the wine than I am for the beef! Fri Oct 02 14:15:53 -0700 2009 5073930 177209 PinchOfSalt 3 5075507 I would use Marcus James Merlot or Cabernet Sauvignon The bottle is 1.5 liters so there would be some leftover Fri Oct 02 16:57:28 -0700 2009 5075241 1105778 zzDan 1 5074824 Niki, invinothersverde, cinnamon girl, rockfish, hankstramm, vetter, hsk and zz Dan, thank you! I've learned more in the last 24hrs than I've ever know on selecting a good wine. I'll be sure and post a follow up the next time I make BB. I know it'll be 100% better with a good & proper wine.. Thanks again, you guys have been great! Joyfull Fri Oct 02 11:00:35 -0700 2009 5072079 65032 Joyfull 2 5077669 You're welcome, Joyfull, and we look forward to your report the next time you make it! Cheers, Niki Sun Oct 04 04:47:00 -0700 2009 5074824 18072 Niki in Dayton 1 5075104 I use Charles Shaw California Cabernet Sauvignon, aka 2 buck Chuck, although it's 3 bucks here in Boston. Amen. Fri Oct 02 13:08:47 -0700 2009 5072079 66281 ginnyhw 1 5075425 I use an inexpensive red, preferably under $5, certainly under $10. Something fruity like a zin, without a lots of tannins and no oak. Even though pinot noir would be truest to Burgundy, I'm suspicious of cheap pinots, because they're so often thin and acidic. You don't need a great wine to cook with, just something without any off or unpleasant flavors that could get intensified in the cooking. Cook's Illustrated found that a blend can be better than a single varietal because it allows the winemaker to combine wines that compensate for each other (the sum is greater than the parts). Btw, there are plenty of California zins that are not alcohol bombs, so don't write them off entirely. The bombs certainly exist (and get high ratings from some experts, go figure), but just don't buy those. Fri Oct 02 15:59:12 -0700 2009 5072079 19542 Karen_Schaffer 2 5075664 What's the difference between a low alcohol wine and a higher one (non fortified)? 9% v 12%? I just used a 2buck Shiraz for peposo, an Italian style beef shank dish. I was happy with the result, but that dish is very heavy on black pepper. I suspect the traditional wine for that is chianti. Fri Oct 02 19:08:04 -0700 2009 5075425 12139 paulj 3 5076044 Black Opal was making a good Merlot Cabernet blend that can pass as a decent Chianti. lately we've had trouble finding it - it's 6 or7 bucks when available. I've used it cooking Italian dishes but we usually drink it with Italian dishes. Sat Oct 03 05:32:18 -0700 2009 5075664 66281 ginnyhw 3 5076314 They can run over 16% these days, which creates a "hot" or burning sensation. This is most common in New World reds, like Cabernet and Shiraz. Sat Oct 03 08:29:11 -0700 2009 5075664 92744 invinotheresverde 4 5076791 Invino, WHY do they do this, make the alcohol content so high? It ruins it for me, personally. The 'Old World' ranges of 12 to 13% just taste better to me, pinot noirs particularly. Do they think wine-drinkers want to get buzzed faster? Sat Oct 03 13:22:12 -0700 2009 5076314 11983 Val 5 5077265 No, it's because the sugar content of the grapes is so high in some of the hotter growing regions. Sat Oct 03 19:10:40 -0700 2009 5076791 69044 hsk 6 5078174 Correct. Also, those 15%ers are surprisingly popular with the sheeple (and a most popular wine critic). They're definitely not my bag, but lots of people like them. Sun Oct 04 10:32:21 -0700 2009 5077265 92744 invinotheresverde 1 5076150 FWIW, this Thursday (10/8/09) the PBS Create channel will be showing the Julia and Jacques Cooking at Home episode featuring Beef Bourguignon. The channel runs 6hr blocks of programming, so the program will be on 4 times. Website is createtv.org to find your local schedule. Sat Oct 03 06:37:44 -0700 2009 5072079 159317 greygarious 1 5163075 Cooks Illustrated recommends Guigal's Cotes du Rhone, Rosemont Estate Grenache/Shiraz, and Ca del Sol by Bonny Doon. I have used the Rosemont for both beef bourguignon and coq au vin. And, yes, Philly was either being sarcastic or simplistic with a rec of Burgundy. Burgundy can cost as little as @ 7 a bottle to hundreds. Perrin offers a nice blend in the 7 range that works well for cooking AND drinking. Sat Nov 07 07:24:52 -0800 2009 5072079 89607 carterbise 1 5163132 Another thread suggests the dish is named for the region and not the varietal and suggest using either a burgundy or Cotes du Rhone, and even some cognac. See; http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/554310 I've used several Rhone varietals and blends, a lower abv zinfandel, and I think even a barbera once, all with great results. None of them were the least bit pricey. Sat Nov 07 07:57:27 -0800 2009 5072079 18150 PolarBear