654262 Tue Sep 22 15:51:54 -0700 2009 41 29 Not About Food 0 5050362 We own a very busy Asian-Fusion restaurant. In the last ten years, we've noticed a trend. More and more people are of the mind that they'll allow their children to "learn by doing" when it comes to ordering. Now, I have no problem at all with people who involve their children as a way of giving them life experience, if the lesson is taught at little or no expense to someone else. Sadly, more than a few families decide that they'll let their (usually clueless) child order everyone's meal -- in the middle of a Friday or Saturday rush (or similar crowded time). It's painful to watch the poor child stutter through a long list of orders while the adults just watch on in silence. Worse, it's tying up the server while his/her other customers deserve to be getting some attention. These same folks will call at a very busy time of day, to place an order for food to take-out. Then they put the little one on the phone -- and the cogs of commerce grind to a standstill. I was verbally chastised by one mother whose child I asked to "please put mommy on the phone." She asked me how her (8 year old) daughter is going to learn how to order take-out if she doesn't 'start early.' I'm of the opinion that it's just wrong to involve a child (12 and under) in the ordering process, whether eat-in, or take-out, unless it's very obvious to the parents that the restaurant has the time and resources to devote to a process that sometimes takes 15 minutes -- a very long time in a casual/ethnic dining setting. My question: are these people completely ignorant to how much trouble they cause? Am I being insensitive? Should I allow these people to let their children tie up our servers and our phone lines in the name of education? Tue Sep 22 15:51:54 -0700 2009 270888 shaogo 1 5050514 >are these people completely ignorant to how much trouble they cause? Yes >Am I being insensitive? Maybe, but if you are, I am, too. >Should I allow these people to let their children tie up our servers and our phone lines in the name of education? No. If you are taking payment by credit card, or securing the order with one, I think it would be prudent to require that the card-holder place the order. If it's going to be cash, I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that you can only make the transaction with the party responsible for payment. Will they be unhappy with that? Probably. Tue Sep 22 16:54:40 -0700 2009 5050362 14974 BeaN 1 5050529 I have to admit, you have hit a pet peeve - but it is the OPPOSITE of what annoys you. Maybe it is because I have kids, maybe it is because I am/was a speech pathologist - but the world will not end if you have to take a few minutes to take an order. What about my former patients - people who stutter, people who have aphasia due to stroke or brain injury, people with hearing impairments, and people with all manner of speech impairments. Are they not allowed to order? Do you also consider them to be "causing trouble"? That said, I am choosy about when I allow my kids to order, and I generally would not let them do so over the phone - for kids who can scream like crazy, they get tiny little soft phone voices. But if you (the server or owner) cannot tolerate my kid ordering, you must not want my business. Tue Sep 22 17:02:24 -0700 2009 5050362 249405 elfcook 2 5050578 Let me make it clear that the *only* demographic I'm addressing here are the (speaking) parents of children; children who've not "rehearsed" (to perhaps get over their tiny little soft phone voices). The American School for the Deaf is located in the town we're in, and I assure you we're more than patient with TTY/relay calls -- and with stutterers. The only reason I'd not "tolerate" your child ordering would be if I had a half-dozen people waiting, two or three more on hold, and your child could not convey the order clearly/adequately/timely. That's it. Tue Sep 22 17:16:48 -0700 2009 5050529 270888 shaogo 3 5050600 I do agree that if the child ordering is causing a problem, the adult should be directly asked to step in & order/clarify. If the parent does not do that, it is their bad manners showing. Placing them back on hold or asking them to step aside "until they are ready" and then asking the next customer for their order seems perfectly appropriate. Tue Sep 22 17:25:35 -0700 2009 5050578 249405 elfcook 3 5050680 Great point. There are several towns in this country where the disabled population (which obviously includes many different variables) lives in supported living or schools, etc. The town, collectively, respects and honors them and it shows in all areas whether it be in the restaurants or theatre, etc. You made it very clear from the beginning this is not your area of concern and focus. Your complaint is legitimate and valid. Tue Sep 22 17:57:48 -0700 2009 5050578 239340 latindancer 3 5050699 I am glad to hear you are well-versed in dealing with people with disabilities. You would be amazed to see how many people in various service industries do not - working in community re-entry, it was disheartening to see how many people were impatient, rude, or thought the patients were "stupid" for "fooling around and wasting time". These same people were often short with children as well, based on observation. I apologize if I offended you - I should have worded my post better. I just often wish the world as a whole had a bit more patience. Some days we could all use it. Tue Sep 22 18:04:28 -0700 2009 5050578 249405 elfcook 4 5050733 No offense taken at all. The purpose of my post was to garner *all* opinions on the issue. As an aside, our community also has quite a large proportion of group homes (for the mentally retarded/disabled) in relationship to the population. It's a great, great town for these people to go about their lives. So many here are genuinely understanding and very patient with these folks. Because of our restaurant's value-priced menu, many of the group homes seek us out as a "dining out night" destination. They're thrilled when we offer them seating in the main dining room (some other area restaurants put these groups in banquet/private party rooms). We're thrilled to have them. There but for the Grace of God go I. Finally, frankly, I think I'd get a kick out of hosting a table of *very* young diners -- at a traditionally non-busy time -- to get them up to speed on ordering, protocol and etiquette. Perhaps I should print an invitation and hand it to the parents who' choose the wrong time to give their kids a learning experience. Tue Sep 22 18:15:35 -0700 2009 5050699 270888 shaogo 2 5050582 I can play restaurant with my child at home, or have him practice ordering when we are sitting at a table with a waiter in an un-hurried setting when there is no service rush. The take-out may have customers walk away during the lunch rush or call some place else when they can't get through. The restaurant shouldn't risk losing customers for the sake of my kids learning skills. Making accommodations for people with disabilities is a different kettle of fish. My kids aren't disabled; they're just kids. They need to learn by observation and we need to practice at home before going live in a restaurant. In time, they will be able to order with aplomb, but in the meanwhile they don't need to practice during peak restaurant traffic times. Tue Sep 22 17:17:38 -0700 2009 5050529 14974 BeaN 1 5050575 Well, we don't order much in the way of carry out/ delivery, but my daughters have ordered for themselves as long as they've been able to read and comprehend a menu. Sometimes I let them order for me because I can't make a decision. Sometimes I let them pay the bill (with my money, of course.) So I'd be careful which customer you're disrespecting when it comes time to leave the tip! They've both studied figuring percentages. Tue Sep 22 17:15:58 -0700 2009 5050362 91302 podunkboy 1 5050641 I have friends who let their kids order for themselves, and it's always worked out fine. But I can't imagine letting a kid order for the entire table. What could that possibly train them for? What ADULT orders for the entire table? Sounds like a variation on the "dance for Grandma" theme - a way to get the child to perform for an audience. Whether the audience - or the child - wants it or not. Tue Sep 22 17:40:42 -0700 2009 5050362 13722 small h 2 5051890 Agreed. I went out to dinner with some extended family, including an aunt and uncle who have three little girls ages 10 and under. The 10 and 7 year olds both looked at the menu, decided what they wanted, and ordered for themselves with no help from any of the adults at the table, but I doubt they would have been able to - or would have wanted to, for that matter - order for the entire group! Wed Sep 23 08:24:16 -0700 2009 5050641 150942 whitneybee 2 5052560 Perhaps this is a family style restaurant? At, for example, a Chinese restaurant, a group of people may order several meat dishes, a noodle dish, soup, etc etc, all to be shared with everyone. When I am with a group doing this we may decide together what to order, but 1 person will tell the server. Same with takeout. I'm not saying its ok to have the child order for the entire table. Especially at an ethnic restaurant where many of the dishes may have unfamiliar names or be difficult to pronounce. There are certainly more effective times to learn about other languages/cultures. And I agree with everyone else that the act of ordering (whether for oneself or family style) is fairly simple to pick up on as one grows up and witnesses others doing it. Wed Sep 23 11:20:37 -0700 2009 5050641 72532 rds246 3 5052671 <Perhaps this is a family style restaurant?> The OP refers to it as "a very busy Asian-Fusion restaurant." Your point is well-taken about one person ordering up a whole Chinese shared meal, but that does not seem to be what's going on here. Wed Sep 23 11:48:41 -0700 2009 5052560 13722 small h 4 5054767 Good point. We do offer "family style" service to our Chinese customers. However, the children I mentioned were ordering "American-Chinese" food and sushi -- for a table of six. Thu Sep 24 07:48:35 -0700 2009 5052671 270888 shaogo 5 5054796 "american chinese food" is usually shared around the table too Thu Sep 24 07:59:05 -0700 2009 5054767 135229 thew 1 5050653 What a great question. I have experienced these parents in restaurants...they're usually the type of parents who're hoping there's a casting agent nearby watching their 'adorable', 'unique' child. There's also the type of parent who thinks the world and its inhabitants should come to an abrupt halt while their precious child learns another one of those valuable life lessons on how to order food in a restaurant or over the phone. They don't really seem to care about the other clientele, or the servers, who have to sit and watch this. I feel for you as a restaurant owner. I'm a parent of 2 adults. My children 'magically' learned how to order food on their own (they watched therefore they learned and quite efficiently) without going through the strange parental maneuvers you're describing :) Tue Sep 22 17:45:27 -0700 2009 5050362 239340 latindancer 1 5050688 I am amazed at the concept that a parent thinks a child needs to learn how to order take out. My kids seemed to learn that just fine on their own when it became a necessary skill (ie at the age of fourteen or so). .....I distinctly remember telling them, 'sure, you can have pizza for dinner: if you order it'. (I am not a pizza fan and would never take the initiative to order it for myself, and besides, I didn't care what they ordered since I don't like any type of pizza...). I might have even made them pay for it, or pay it off in chores, mean mom that I was. :-) I do think it is appropriate to let a child order for themselves in a restaurant. As for ordering for others: I find it slightly offensive to have anyone else order for me: whether it is a spouse, friend or child. I will order for myself, thank you very much. (and if the child is old enough to feel that way, they can order for themselves). As for the child whose mother chastised you, I think I would have taken a different approach: ie to tell her you need address and billing information, and are uncomfortable taking that information from a child. Who would let their child give out such info over the phone, anyway? (I am assuming we are talking about young children here). Tue Sep 22 18:00:36 -0700 2009 5050362 10158 susancinsf 2 5052615 I know- I never thought I had a bad mother because she made me figure out how to order pizza on my own when I was in high school. It's not like it's a complicated thing- especially once caller id became popular and you just verified your address. Wed Sep 23 11:36:06 -0700 2009 5050688 97825 Coconuts 1 5050729 There are three different issuses here....the phone orders and ordering for the whole table is strange to say the least...but a child ordering for themselves should not be a problem. Tue Sep 22 18:14:11 -0700 2009 5050362 11854 LaLa 1 5050752 I always let my child order for themselves at a table (with mom prepping first). I would never let my kid "fuddle through" a complicated order either in a restaurant or on the phone. That is rude, both to the business and the server -and unfair to the child. The idea is that the child gets to feel more competent- not stammer, forget the address, look to mom for help, be unable to answer a question, etc. Defeats the purpose in my opinion. Tue Sep 22 18:22:17 -0700 2009 5050362 1110504 sedimental 1 5050824 Absolutely agree, the old COTU (Center of the Universe) syndrome. But jfood disagrees on one point. The whole excuse used by these same self centered parents that they are trying to "teach" their kids is pure crap. What they are trying to show you is how smart little Janey is. Oh look, she can order for the table. And jfood has never heard of someone after the age of 10 who cannot order some chicken nuggets or a pizza. Then their God given brain will allow them to increase to chicken and staek and then onto harder orders. Teaching a child how to order? If you bringthem to restaurants and include them in the process they will learn by osmosis. Jfood guesses the Nanny did not take the little COTUs-in-training out much. Tue Sep 22 18:54:29 -0700 2009 5050362 11290 jfood 1 5050895 This is so strange...i've never witnessed such a thing. A child ordering for themselves yes, ordering for the entire table, or making phone orders, no. Learning how to be polite to others when at a restaurant is great though. Since when is ordering take-out a required life skill ? Is there a Girl Guide badge for that or something ? Tue Sep 22 19:25:50 -0700 2009 5050362 153184 im_nomad 2 5051735 >Since when is ordering take-out a required life skill ? Is there a Girl Guide badge for that or something ? Maybe in NYC. I recall a story about a daycare center there with the usual play kitchen setup. Visitor opens the cabinet door expecting to see pots and pans and fake food-- but instead sees a bucket with a pile of takeout menus! Wed Sep 23 07:42:07 -0700 2009 5050895 18353 DGresh 3 5051748 It just makes me think of Oliver from In Treatment. I think he's pretty young but ordered takeout sometimes when his dad wasn't home. Wed Sep 23 07:45:55 -0700 2009 5051735 107671 queencru 1 5051169 You've raised a couple of separate issues. A child ordering for the whole table? Absurd. Placing a lengthy telephone take-out order? Ditto. But the notion that kids under 12 shouldn't be ordering their own meals is just silly. My daughters have been doing it since their early elementary years, and either of them can tell the server that she wants the prime rib special with soup of the day, ranch dressing on the salad, potatoes french fried, and the meat medium-rare in far less time than it would take for me to find out the questions that need to be answered, extract the necessary information, and relay it on. And that's assuming I get it right and there's no need for corrections. It boils down to common courtesy. Kids who can hold up their end of the social contract should be given great latitude to do so. But the minute that they start interfering with the server's job, the parents need to step in and move things along. Is this going to happen? Of course not. There are self-involved people who don't realize how much trouble they're causing. Or don't care. Or derive some unhealthy satisfaction from being a pain in the ass. Whether it's parents who expect the world to grind to a halt and admire their spawn's performance or whether it's single adults who want to order like Meg Ryan in "When Harry Met Sally," their behavior is inexcusable. Problem is, there's not much you can do about it. Unless, of course, you want to take the Soup Nazi route. What restaurant owner hasn't dreamed of that? Order ready, money in hand, or no soup for you! Tue Sep 22 22:24:12 -0700 2009 5050362 58743 alanbarnes 1 5051751 I think a child who can order their own dinner in a restaurant successfully should be able to do so. I do not think they should order for the table or call in the family's takeout order. Wed Sep 23 07:46:27 -0700 2009 5050362 11990 Janet from Richmond 2 5057317 I agree with alanbarnes and Janet. My kids, 8 and 12, order for themselves in restaurants and are considerably swifter than the Meg Ryan character cited above. The ability to evaluate choices (quickly) and articulate them to the waiter is a life skill that kids need to practice. Ordering for the table or takeout, not necessary at this age. Fri Sep 25 06:32:01 -0700 2009 5051751 280735 tcamp 3 5057586 My children have also ordered in the restaurant at this age and over the phone for take out. The key word is 'quickly'. I always made sure the order, being given, was quick and concise. This is where a parent steps in to make sure the server or the person on the other end of the phone wasn't being inconvenienced. The parent who sits and watches as their child stumbles with the order and makes life difficult for everyone around them is rude, inconsiderate and boorish. This is what the OP was eluding to.... Fri Sep 25 08:13:01 -0700 2009 5057317 239340 latindancer 3 5057625 The ability to evaluate choices (quickly) and articulate them to the waiter is a life skill that kids need to practice". I agree, when it is appropriate to do so. A busy restaurant, where servers are flying around trying to do whatever they have to do in order to get things done correctly, does not need a child slowing them down and having to listen to them 'learn a life skill'. What the child needs to learn as a 'life skill' at this time and place is that there are other people out there they need to be respectful of, ie; the busy waiter. The waiter doesn't need to hear their lesson being learned. The parent needs to teach them this very important 'life skill'. Fri Sep 25 08:22:32 -0700 2009 5057317 239340 latindancer 4 5057735 If the child can give an order quickly, it shouldn't be any different than an adult giving the order. Unless a person has a disability/impairment, s/he should order quickly, ask the server for more time, or order last after getting an idea of what others are ordering. Fri Sep 25 08:59:46 -0700 2009 5057625 107671 queencru 5 5058190 Every single situation is different. I find there are people willing to put their children (and the disabled/impaired) in impossible situations that are actually counterproductive to their emotional/physical well being just to make a point. There is a time and place for everything. Good judgment is not always used. Fri Sep 25 11:15:50 -0700 2009 5057735 239340 latindancer 6 5063349 gotta jump in one last time - as far as disabled/impaired, there may be times when there is an actual therapy session going on & no one other than the client & therapist are aware of it. We used to take clients to stores, restaurants, etc to work on speech goals. Phoning businesses to ask a question was also common. Some speech goals can only be addressed in real world situations, because that level of stress cannot be replicated in a closed therapy session. That said, courtesy for other patrons is still important - we would order last, or wait for a lull, etc. Mon Sep 28 05:46:55 -0700 2009 5058190 249405 elfcook 1 5051781 I think the issue here is letting a child order when it can hurt the service for other patrons: for example, when a restaurant is really busy, there's a long waiting line, etc. This reminds me of two incidents. The first was at a wedding reception where there was a loooong line for one of the serving stations. Why? Because the parent had to explain everything to a child in a painstaking manner (what the food was, how it taste, etc.). The kid obviously did not know whether or not he wanted this food, but instead of making the call, the parent just stood there waiting for the kid to make up his mind. HELLO!!! A second incident was at a fast-food joint where the mother in front of me literally went through the whole menu with her child. I don't blame the children in either of these cases but the clueless, my child is the center of the world parents. Wed Sep 23 07:53:59 -0700 2009 5050362 12045 gloriousfood 2 5069449 Your examples reminded me of one situation at a popular Gelato place nearby. The parent in front of me allowed each of his 5 young children to sample nearly EVERY flavor and talk about whether they liked it or not, with a line about 10-deep going out the door behind him. The only thing worse would've been if he had let them all sample and then left without buying anything, haha. Wed Sep 30 09:08:23 -0700 2009 5051781 105444 gyozagirl 1 5062174 Just a final clarification. A few posters above construed my post as being against children ordering their own meals, for themselves. Certainly if they're old enough to read a menu children should be allowed to order for themselves in a restaurant -- unless, of course, someone is ordering for the table. Which brings me to another question -- a number of posters said they'd never (or rarely) heard of one individual ordering for a table. I order for the table (merely repeating what my guests have indicated they'd like to have) almost always when I'm hosting a party of up to four persons. More, I let the waiter take the orders. This is just a courtesy that I've extended to those I'm hosting in a restaurant. I was tought this by the father of a friend, who also did this for his dinner guests. Sun Sep 27 13:36:42 -0700 2009 5050362 270888 shaogo 2 5062277 And jfood would add to this: - He almost always orders for Mrs jfood. If ordering for yourself is a sign of equality there are other issues present - Jfood sometimes orders for his normal group at a Tapas restaurant. He asks around and then then they go into conversation and jfood has a nice discussion with the waiter - If anyone can order for themselves, go for it, but a busy restaurant is not a training ground. You would not want someone bringing a child into your workplace for a life lesson - Take out orders are huge areas for miscommunication. Injecting a child's voice into the fray just increases the chance for mistakes and then those same parents would never blame their child, of course it would be the restaurant's fault. Sun Sep 27 14:15:20 -0700 2009 5062174 11290 jfood 3 5063326 I sometimes order for a group, especially if we are sharing stuff. I fairly often order for my husband. Some people are good at ordering. Others are not. I am good at it. I speak clearly, don't complicate things, etc. My husband tends to have a lot of special requests and honestly even knowing what he is trying to order I will listen to him and I would get the order wrong based on trying to understand him (this amazes me because he spends a great deal of time in court as an expert witness and I have to assume he communicates better in that setting <g>). Same with directions. When my husband gives someone directions to our home I consider it a miracle if they get there successfully on the first try. Mon Sep 28 05:30:44 -0700 2009 5062277 11990 Janet from Richmond 1 5068561 The Onion says it best, as usual -- Bakery Held Hostage by Child Picking Out Donuts: http://www.theonion.com/content/radio_news/bakery_held_hostage_by_child Tue Sep 29 22:38:19 -0700 2009 5050362 130151 dmd_kc 2 5075659 It really is the finest news source! Fri Oct 02 19:04:10 -0700 2009 5068561 60617 rednyellow 1 5077581 I dont have kids, so my patience probably isn't as great as it should be. I've only been stuck behind these people in the grocery store line. Everyone wants to get out and go home, but someone insists it's a good time to teach their kid to count currency. I use that time to teach myself not to argue with strangers. Sun Oct 04 00:07:17 -0700 2009 5050362 258252 Azizeh 1 5079593 Reminds me of my first job--carhop--during the Nixon administration. Some doting mother let her 5 YO order over the speaker--the kid leaned over and shouted into the microphone and it sounded like "ice cream cone" to the operator. So out I walked with the cone, and the mother got ANGRY--"that's not what we ordered". My explanation and offer to go back and get what she wanted was met with more anger and that attitude of "how stupid do you have to be to not get these things right?" not remotely appropriate. Mon Oct 05 06:48:28 -0700 2009 5050362 109573 coney with everything