Menu Prices
DH and I are two weeks out from our first trip to Italy where we will visit Venice, Florence and Rome. I am starting to research restaurants and trying to get a feel for budget.
Initial thoughts, Italy is a bit pricier than what I am used to seeing day to day in Atlanta. This is complicated by the weak dollar and my being unfamiliar with Italy.
An average weekday lunch for us would be $10-$15 each. Dinner varies more, a decent dinner with wine would be $80-$100. Of course, we also understand the joy that is cheap ethnic food and hole in the wall oyster bars. I would classify us as relatively fearless when it comes to food.
We enjoy a nice splurge meal and will certainly make room for those on our trip. (Notable splurges have included Cyrus in Healdsburg and Quinones in Atlanta).
It may be that Italy means $75 lunches and $150 dinners. If that is the case, so be it. I just am looking for a frame of reference when scoping menus. I feel a bit silly asking these questions... :)
1) Do the Italians mark up their wine as much as we do in American restaurants? This being Italy, I would imagine that even house wine is pretty decent.
2) Experienced hounds, what do you budget for Italy?
mascot
Sep 21, 2009 01:21PM
Others can speak better than me on pricing but wine is much cheaper relatively in Italy because it is not an optional meal component. Water often costs more than the house wine which, except in higher tier restaurants, is usually offered in carafes and quite decent. Bottled wines will be more especially of course if you want rare or more special wines.. there are a lot of reconomical recommendations here on Chowhound, but if you want other referents, try the Slowfood osterie guide, which includes only moderate price places (max around 35E per person for meal I think), in its very fine recommendations or you might want to look at Sandra Gustafson's Great Eats (formerly cheap eats) book which covers all three of your cities and which we used quite efectively on one trip of this sort in 2000 with only a couple of bad picks (I havent used it for subsquent trips or looked at the most recent version, but it had good geographical coverage of the cities, very useful maps and a significant amount of overlap at the moderate-mid end of the spectrum with recommendations ive seen on this site. or in other sources.
Good luck!
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This is minimal, but good to know in case you are not aware. Italy charges pane e coperto, which is a bread and table charge. It is usually 2,3 euro per person. Some places charge bread and cover separately, so i think you can tell them you don't want any bread (if you truly don't).
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We always just buy the house wine, which is very reasonable.
Although the dollar is your real problem, you still should be able to eat well at reasonable prices. I was in Europe this summer, but only two days in Italy, and it was clearly more expensive than my last trip to Italy three years ago, but it still wasn't necessary to spend vast amounts for food. Granted, I didn't splurge--stuck to pizza and salad for lunch and pasta for both of my two dinners--and I was not in one of the big cities.
But I've spent several longish vacations in Venice and shorter stays in Rome and Florence. And I've always managed to eat well and budget. In Venice, there is a wide selection of tremazzini (the little sandwiches sold all over town), and we often made lunch on a nice selection of those. I had great pizza in Rome, bought right on the street. So if you're willing to eat this way and order house wine, you can reserve a lot of your budget for more expensive lunches and dinners and the occasional splurge: such a combination is my idea of getting a well-rounded taste of Italy. (In Venice, we've splurged at Da Fiore, Al Covo, Da Gondolieri, but generally found that we enjoyed the simpler preparations in the more moderately priced restaurants, tucked away off the tourist track . IMO, Da Fiore has gotten way too expensive; it was super expensive the first time we ate there, maybe twelve years ago, and I wasn't sure it was worth it even if it was really good. I don't think I would splurge there now. In fact, I'd probably reserve my splurge $$ for one of the other cities.)
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I highly recommend you fast-track order David Downie's new guide to restaurants in Roma, which emphasizes the authentic but highly affordable.
My experience of living in Italy is that restaurant eating is considered a treat you pay for -- even by Italians. Combine that with the fact that tourist areas charge higher prices, and that tourists tend to head to well-regarded restaurants for all their meals -- instead of making do with what's available at bars -- and you really do end up spending much more than you would in your home town.
I recommend that you *don't* do "splurge" meals in Italia. Instead, if you enjoy a wonderful affordable meal, go back to the same restaurant and let the same restaurant cook for you again! You are hardly likely to exhaust the menu, and the owners will take care of you -- and even let you order just a bit if you're not in the mood for yet another 3-course extravaganza.
There are two places in Firenze where I enjoyed moderately priced lunches -- one is the rooftop cafe of the Rinascente department store (which has a view of the Duomo and the streetscape of Firenze to boot -- and a famous cantine that plates up sliced salume and cheeses whose name escapes me (it's almost opposite the gelateria Perche non!) -- perhaps someone will come by and supply the name. Nice thing about the cantine is that it keeps serving well into the afternoon.
In my experience, Venezia is almost a lost cause when it comes to genuinely authentic Venetian food at affordable prices.
I tend to like wine and am willing to pay for something beyond the house offering. But I do ask what the house wine is -- and sometimes it's just fine.
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Im reading the Downie book right now and I think it is very worthwhile and enlightening , giving me lots of ideas (for example to help me choose between the restaurants in my Testaccio neighborhoods for a couple of meals or to find a nice lunch place the day we head out to St. Paul outside the Walls), but Im not taking it along on my upcoming trip (like the OP, only a limited time in Rome)., its simply too big and heavy. I was a little disappointed with the the failure to include even bried commentary on the non-Roman Terroir restaurants especially those presenting other Italian regional cuisines, but well that would have bloated this fat book even more.
Im going to make some notes of restaurants closing days and specialties, copy a few pages and leave it here, same as for my Slowfood, Gambero Rosso, Plotkin and other big food guides. For a first or short trip Its good to keep it simple, get some background on what type of dishes to expect in a city or region and seek out and have a short list of reliable recommendations, maybe twice as many as the number or meals you expect to eat, because some wont work out. Also a relatively light restaurant guide with maps (line the book I recimmended above) or a map with guides (like the Rough Guide), because you may wind up at lunchtime far away form any place on your list.
All in all, I am looking forward to seeing some new restaurant names crop up on this Board due to Downie recommendations
Re Venice, there are quite a number of moderate places, many of which have been recommended repeatedly on this site and which a search will reveal. I wouldnt want to go all the way to Venice and skip the characteristic seafood specialties. lagoon vegetables, risottos, etc. If you dont order whole fish, which tend to run up the cost, and share some of your plates (one mixed seafood appetizer for two people etc) and you will have your tastes of the cuisine at lesser costs. And oh, mostly italian restaurant desserts arent worth it - save your money in the restaurants and buy some of the luscious grapes and other fruits at the fruit stands or pastries at the pasticcerias.
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I agree that the bulk and heavyweight paper of the Downie book makes it impractical for packing. His excellent companion book for Liguria has the same problem. In that book, the recommendations are indexed separately in the back, and it would make sense to xerox those pages, ticking off your prime interests, and marking the locations on a map of Rome (I add the closure days right on the map). It's gotten so I often travel with two maps for a city, one that is pristine and one that is heavily marked up with target destinations.
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This is the "cantine" I was thinking of:
Cantinetta di Verrazano
via dei tavolini,18/20r
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We all eat differently, therefore, it is very difficult to offer a general eating budget. Many of the above posts have some very good specific advice as to cost. I've only been to Rome and Florence, a week here and a week there but have spent at least a month in Venice for the past dozen years or so. From my experience, eating out is definitely more expensive in Venice. Part of the reason is the cost of seafood which is the base of much traditional Venetian cooking. Still, I would not scrimp since some of the seafood from the lagoon is not found anywhere else. A three course meal at a good moderately priced restaurant for dinner would be about 35-40E per person without wine or drinks; and a little more for an excellent places such as Fiaschetteria Toscana. But one doesn't have to order 3 courses; split an antipasto, skip dessert at most places and head out for a gelato as many are opened late into the evening. Lunch can be a simple affair with paninni, tremmazini, or cicchetti and a glass of wine which should cost less than 10E per person. If breakfast is not included in your hotel, standup in a cafe/pastry shop is around 2E for an espresso/cappuccino and a pastry; sit down can be twice the cost.
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Don't worry, you don't have to spend that much in Italy.
wine: Though housewines are definitely ok in Italy, as a sommelier I can not recommend them. But you'll be fine and pay around 4-6 euros per half a liter. Bottled wines don't have such a high markup as in the US (except maybe in 3-michelin star places), usually it is around 100-150% to retail price. So if you enjoy wines, Italy is THE place to go ahead and order that special bottle - you won't get it as cheap ever again.
food budget: others have given sound advice. My 2 cents - you don't have to eat all courses. As a couple we often order some combination, covering all bases but sharing, depending on the place and its strengths. Lunch is somehow easier to go light on, as we like to sit down, relax and enjoy for dinner, but that is personal of course. For a light lunch you can have a pizza al taglio, a panino, a tramezzino etc., all will cost just 3-4 euros. Beware of soft drinks and beer, they tend to be expensive, both in relation to US and in relation to water or wine in the same place.
Other than special occasions in special ristorante, we as a couple almost always spend around 50-60 euros total in a trattoria for dinner, including a decent bottle of wine. (in Rome). This can go upto 100 in really nice places, especially fish places. Of course a star-level, multi-course, wine paired dinner can cost 220 and more, if you want to splurge. A pizzeria visit, which is always only for dinner, will set you back only 20-25 euros total, including 1 or 2 beers (which is the drink of choice with pizza, for Italians).
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For what ever it is worth, we recently went to Italy armed with lots of research and lists of must do restaurants and ended up at only a few of them because our activities between meals took us all over the place and it was often not convenient to track down the ones on our list.
So more often than not we just "ate" and looked at posted menus and picked for ambiance and took our chances. Never a bad meal (except one recommended by SlowFoods in Naples) and an interesting survey of what is out there.
Breakfast was included in the hotel and we ate as much as we could. Lunch became only a snack when we took a midday break from sight seeing. And dinners would ususally cost $80-150 for two, and we considered them well worth it for the food and the experience.
Or sometimes our "dinner" was the more traditional mid-day meal, which was chosen to be long, lovely and leisurely. So personally I would only budget for one major meal per day and then pick up snacks to keep you going for the rest of the time -- or gelato and enjoy your most likely "free" breakfast at your hotel.
Throw out the idea you need both an expensive lunch and dinner and plan accordingly.
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Not much in other posts here on Florence, so I direct you to search this Italy board for my post "Florence Report - December 2007" where you will find multiple descriptions of restaurants with prices listed. They are all in the main part of Florence near the major attractions (Duomo, Bargello, Palazzo Vecchio, Uffizi, Ponte Vecchio, Accademia). Earlier posts I did on Florence also listed Sostanza (highly recommended by lots of posters on this board) where you should go to have their bistecca fiorentina and petti di pollo in burro (chicken in a butter sauce you will find addictive). We have also suggested Le Mossacce for a quick substantial inexpensive lunch (located between the Duomo and the Bargello). For a gustatory experience unlike that anywhere else in Italy, we recommend you go to Teatro del Sale for either lunch or dinner (must reserve for dinner). My December 2007 post fully describes what we had for lunch and the very reasonable prices for both meals (considering that wine and bottled water are included in the meal price and that there is entertainment included with dinner, this place is a bargain!) It is not uncommon for Teatro del Sale to offer local wineries' good wines at dinner at no extra charge. Another good inexpensive experience is to go to Nerbone, a food stand located inside the Mercato Centrale, for lunch. They offer soups, pasta, and hot sandwiches of either pork or beef. You decide what you want, pay for it, then take your ticket to the counter where the sandwiches are made and show your ticket for the sandwich. Two people can have a very substantial lunch with house wine for less than 15 Euros total.
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Personally I hate the idea of filling up on the hotel breakfasts - which are usually mediocre . We much prefer going to a coffee bar and having a GOOD coffee latte (something most hotels cant or wont provide) and a fresh hot cornetto.brioche.
i m totally on board with GLBTR's take that two significant meals a day are too much and unneccessary..We havent been able to do that since we were 30 and were walking our feet off (we still do the latter but anyway...) We almost always have our larger meal at lunch, to get some rest and some time out of the sun and to fillin the midday closing hours, but thats personal preference. Its easy to eat a light late meal since thats the main time Italians eat pizza and chiccheti (Venice). Wine bars are another evening option for a light meal. On the whole its good weve found to eat early and get going early in the am, since so many places close at noon and since (in the cooler months) visibitily in churches in the afternoon is limited by the short day length and midday closing.
If you do want to go to two restaurants then you can cut back on the number of courses you order very easily and avoid that overstuffed feeling as well as too much $ expenditure. 1.47 and rising...
GLBTRTR, I dont know what to make of you naples anecdotes about la Chitarra (right?) you didnt say what you ate, and you didnt describe any other meals at places in a comparable cuisine category (simple Neapolitan homestyle veg, pasta and meat cuisine). I had a good, cheap and simple meal at the same place in 2006, 9E I think for lunch. With all the new places to try in Naples and too little time I am unlikely to go back there to reality test your report, but I think a little more data would be useful in weighing what you say.
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Jen, sorry I have put our bad meal at La Chitara out of my mind so I can't report in detail. It was just tasteless and uninspired in any way and it cost over $80. Even the olive oil brought to the table to dress the tasteless salad was a supermarket brand. I think I had a house appetizer with some lousy store brand olives an some sliced meats I which were similar to what I got for free at breakfast, nothing prepared or cooked. The second course was nothing of any note and that was about it.
It was close to our hotel so we thought it would be a real neighborhood find and maybe they do a better job at lunch and not so close to their August closing time .No one was there that night. And a few others took a look at the menu and walked away.
We stayed at the wonderful little Decumani de Charme off Spacconapoli ( a very nicely restored historic palazzo) and the breakfast was good enough though I agree, stopping at a cafe instead is always a notch up from hotel breakfasts. The hotel had really terrific crusty bread, decent cheese and salami and yogurts with choice of beverages and some canned juices. Good enough. And I'd pay anything to have more of that crusty bread with sweet butter right now. (!)
The rest of the hotel breakfast fare was pretty ordinary - dried cereals and lousy sweet rolls and Italy should just get out of the croissant business all together and stop trying. But it charged us up enough, for free, that it made the rest of the meal choices during the day a little bit easier. So at least they had some decent fresh offerings. I have been in some Italian hotels that had only little packages indefinite shelf-life crummy baked goods or crackers.
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Thanks to everyone for all of your help and suggestions. I realize these are hard questions to answer (I don't know you, you don't know me).
We are so excited about this trip and all the research is making my head spin. I just needed a reality check.
We are fine with making one meal the big meal. Glad to see that there are plenty of inexpensive options for all meals.
I figured that wine would be more affordable. We love wine and look forward to learing more about Italian wine.
I will probably take a short list of places that are recommended for each of our cities as well as rely on local recommendations when we get there. Hopefully that will help avoid falling into the trap of "closest place with an open table because we are starving and in a strange city" Sometimes that ends well, sometimes it ends in tourist trap hell. But at the end of the day, we are still in Italy so it may not even matter!
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it will matter if you care about food, believe me there is plenty of mediocre tourist food everywhere, even in Italy and especially in toursit destinations and in terms of local reccs, concierge reccs are not always good ones, so its good to have gone some prep like you are doing. All I can say is if you compare the results from info here to flying blind (or relying on a single book, rick steves etc) like many people who post on travel boards do, you will be approaching your decisions with more knowledge and there is lilkely to be a great diff in your satisfaction level/enjoyment of the experience..
dont be afraid to try new things, avoid items like sauce bolognese, avoid restaurants with 4 language menus posted try to get away from tourist impacted areas Piazza San Marco, Piazza Navona, Piazza Signoria, etc.to do your eating., ask the waiter what he recommeds or what the special of the day is... and enjoy..
hope you report back about your trip!
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Worry not, armed with an adventurous palate and a food dictionary, we should be ok. Both of us are daring eaters and will try anything once. I would hate to spend all this effort and money to go to Italy and feel "meh" about our meals. In the states, I feel like I have more of a handle on food trends and pricing. In past travels, we have done pretty well with balancing research and "just walking by" luck.
The Downie book is on order.
I agree with you about concierge recs. For example, I was underwhelmed when the Omni Parker House in Boston suggested Oceanaire to us for good seafood. Sure it is a high end chain and my experiences there have been good, but I can eat there in Atlanta. Give us something that your town does locally and does well.
I will certainly report back about the trip.
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I'm seconding the advice: don't rely on concierges or hotel clerks. Too often, they are, with all good intentions, making assumptions about you and trying to guess what you--the tourist--might like to eat.
And avoid like the plague the many, conveniently-located restaurants with tourist menus in several languages.
Have a wonderful time.
P.S. We always get the Legal Seafoods rec when we're in Boston. And we usually do grab a quick bite there on our way out--at the airport!
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I have found that too. They send you where they think "Americans" like to go and often those are complaining Americans who want things like they are "back home". I also found the Economist Guide to be fairly routine rather than insightful on other destinations.
Chowhound has been my best resource so far for those out of the way places, with the strange sounding names ...... but end up being the best dining experiences. (Which sometimes does not mean the "finest", but certainly far more local and unique and more away from the maddning crowds.
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you might find this website useful for Firenze
http://www.sallybernstein.com/food/di...
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The only problem with this referenced website is that the article you find there is quite old and may not be as reliable as more current ones. The give-away is her use of knife-and-fork ratings that reference approximate costs of meals at the places written up: she is using prices which reflect Italian LIRE, not EUROS, so this means the piece is at least 10 years old. That being said, many of the places she lists are still good, but not as current as posts on Florence found on this board.
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Sorry! I didn't notice that. What interests me was the abundance of places you could get less than a 3-course meal. Ordinarily in Italy I like a big long lunch, but my main interest in being in Firenze is museum going and cultural activity, so I like knowing where I can go to find something quick or someplace serving off hours, but not the dreaded dry panini usually found in bars.
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Most of the bars/cafes near tourist sites we recently saw in Naples had many little plate choices with fresh food. I have not seen the dreaded dry panini in Italy in years, but I know well what you are talking about from 40 years ago.
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Ah, Napoili! It scarcely qualifies as a tourist center and is one of Italy's great cheap food eating and snacking towns. I am sad to report the dry panini or toast is still making regular appearances in 2009, all over Italy, as the only off-hour option for the truly starving.
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Begging to differ here. Naples is the all-time sleeper tourist destination and offers the best travel bargain and eating adventure in all of Italy today. It has more authentic street food and snacks than any other city I know in Italy. Are we talking about the same city? And it seems to be panini free.
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I think you misread my post. I was praising Napoli for not being part of the mass tourist circuit and having a eating culture of fast and finger food that goes beyond the panini.
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I stand corrected. I did misread it. And I read it several times because I couldn't make sense of your syntax. Or your alleged intent to put down this favorite city. Now it makes sense. Thank you. Me bad.
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For those with smaller budgets, for travelers renting apartments and/or students with kitchen facilities this little book by my "personal chef " might help you keep the eating expenses down.
Half of the 53 recipes are in English and many carry the "E" meaning economic...dinner for about 2 euro!
Yesterday it was presented at the University Botanic Gardens in Viterbo, l hour north of Rome. Other presentations are coming up. The photos are already up on Elegant Etruria Friends facebook page .
"Olio e Ricordi in Cucina" by Fulvio Ferri, Eng. text by Mary Jane Cryan
Etruria Editions,
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