Most Overrated Dishes

[Steve]

My nomination is ropa vieja. Commonly found in Cuban restaurants. I always see this listed as a house specialty and I often see this highlighted when people talk about Cuban or Spanish food.

Oh if I only had a dollar for every wet, overly chewy, jaw-numbing, tasteless piece of meat found in your average ropa vieja. RV means "old clothes' in Spanish, and, although I agree this could be a great dish, it is almost always awful. Truly closer to eating old clothes than most restaurants would like to admit.

Instead of serving RV, I wish more places would serve vaca frita or 'fried cow.' Fried beef and onions is usually transcendent, and I am surprised it doesn't make it's way onto menus more often and finally knock RV off its pedestal.

[laliz]

ANY thing with chipotle

[mrbigshotno.1]

Got that right! Overpowers everything.

[blair_houghton]

Use less, or use it on more powerful stuff.

I put it on eggs. In the right quantity, it's a nice balance.

[Full tummy]

I make a wonderful soup with carrots, roasted red peppers, celery, onions, and a bit of chipotle. It is fabulous, and not at all overpowered, though it could easily be.

[Soop]

Do you mean the chile? Or like BBQ sauce?

[alkapal]

amen, sistah laliz, on the chipotle "phenom"!

[joonjoon]

I'm sorry, but chipotle is awesome stuff!

[alkapal]

uh, no need to apologize if you like chipotle.

[jamesneo05]

What is chipotle?? Lol.. I am new here

[alkapal]

chipotle is smoked jalapeño pepper -- usually sold in a can with "adobo sauce" of tomato , vinegar & spices.

[RGC1982]

Actually, I've been pretty lucky with RV in the few Cuban restaurants I've had them in New York.

I was going to nominate authentic Chicken Scarpariello. Scarpariello translates to "shoemaker" in Italian, and the dish is supposed to have been created by a poor working peasant who cobbled shoes. It is nothing but the most horrid pieces of a chicken -- not your usual parts. Just because it is very garlicky and has a lot of lemon, it still does not mask the fact that what you are eating is normally tossed or saved for stock in most American kitchens. I was stunned to have been served this rather than typical chicken parts at a restaurant.

[Veggo]

I have had good luck with ropa vieja in south Florida, but the cuban food here is way better than in Cuba. RV is not commonly offered in Cuba: beef is not their long suit and it is scarce, save for a few paladares.
As for cuban bread, it sucks. Stale, tasteless, too crumbly. Only useful for mopping up tasty liquids, or for a pressed sandwich.

[Steve]

I agrre with you about Cuban bread. At most places, it is a bit like styrofoam.

[Sal Vanilla]

I think you have never had real cuban bread then.

[inaplasticcup]

I've had real Cuban bread, and I'm with those guys. I'd take a fresh baguette over a fresh loaf of Cuban bread any day, but I realize this whole thread is about taste, which is largely subjective.

[butterfly]

Cuban bread is only good when it it toasted--that's when the lard in it (and it should have lard in it...) makes it deliciously crispy. Cuban toast--the kind you have with coffee--has the added benefit of also being drenched in butter and then toasted. You can't get that kind of effect with regular baguettes.

[diva360]

Isn't Ropa Vieja more of a Puerto Rican/Dominican dish? In any case, I've had good versions out and I make a pretty mean one myself, imho.

[lynnlato]

Macaroni & Cheese. It just doesn't do it for me.

[alkapal]

same here -- even the "gourmet" home-made kind.
(but ya know, bacon-girlfriend, that we might give it another shot if it had some (read: "LOTS") of crumbled bacon in the mac & cheese).

[sisterfunkhaus]

Gourmet is the worst kind. Gourmeting up a traditionally homecooked type dish always ruins it. This is the one time I will use Velvetta in my cooking. I hate the stuff, but it has a place in a cheese sauce (along with sour cream, heavy cream, cream cheese, and sharp cheddar) for mac and cheese topped with bacon and Ritz cracker crumbs mixed with butter. I hang my head in shame at using Velvetta, but I have experimented for years and this was my very best combo.

[c oliver]

I have never heard of any M&C, no matter how "tarted up" it became, not having as its base a bechamel sauce with cheese(s) of choice. And always bread crumbs on top. Interesting thing you do there.

[monkeyrotica]

The only M&C I've had with bread crumbs was just terrible: the crumbs ended up burnt AND greasy. This was some "tarted up" gruyere and lobster atrocity masquerading as mac and cheese. All the decent M&C I've had was a blend of Velveeta with some other cheese (swiss, cheddar, or American) with no topping at all except more cheese. For me, M&C must have that crispy, slightly burnt cheese topping on top, like a good pizza or French onion soup gratinee.

[c oliver]

If the bread crumbs wound up burnt and greasy then it was "operator error" not the ingredients. And gruyere is actually a quite traditional cheese for M&C. I think we all have different tastes in things and yours is obviously different from mine. If I got served pizza or French onion soup with burned cheese on top, I'd send it back and ask them to redo it correctly. Different strokes.

[alkapal]

gruyere is "traditional" for mac and cheese? am i wrong in thinking m&c is an american phenom (qua the gooey stuff we know as m&c)? if so, i just don't picture gruyere as "traditional" in american foods.

what are the best/closest italian equivalents? do they do an gruyere and egg noodle type dish in alsace? just curious about mac and cheese versions there in europe.

[monkeyrotica]

I recall seeing a "pasta gratin" dishes in Larousse Gastronomique, where you build a mornay sauce with Gruyere and nutmeg and fold in cooked pasta. But you also supposed to add something else like mushrooms or shredded meat. Top with more Gruyere and breadcrumbs.

[c oliver]

I gather M&C has been around since Thomas Jefferson days and has crossed and recrossed many oceans along the way. I actually see a fair number of recipes that use both gruyere and cheddar. I'm not familiar with an Italian equivalent but that would work for me, for sure :) But can we agree that, regardless of the cheese(s), M&C begins with a bechamel sauce (white sauce)? This isn't something I fix often but it has always started that way for me.

[monkeyrotica]

I grew up on bechamel-based M&C, but as I travelled around the south, I've had many tasty M&Cs in diners and bbq stands and soul food joints that didn't start with a bechamel. Most have been a blend of cheeses (Velveeta, swiss, jack, cheddar, American) mixed with milk and eggs, with more cheese on top. Sometimes topped with breadcrumbs or crushed crackers or even smashed potato chips. Some have been gooey, some have been firmer, almost quiche like. But whatever works.

[lagatta]

I remember the Thomas Jefferson "reciept" - macaroni cheese is a British dish, and as befits Jefferson, with French flourishes. But a very homestyle dish.

Please remember that not all posters here live in the US. One of the treasures of this board is its international reach.

Bad Nono, without going for such things as velveeta, or overly gooey variations, incorporating some béchamel into the cheese is not a bad idea; it is also a thrifty one.

I don't think of Velveeta as food, except in cases of dire need. My family was far from affluent, but we never ate that stuff.

[JayL]

No we can not agree that m&c starts with a bechamel. As monkeyrotica mentioned, many m&c recipes are custard based, not cheese sauce based.

You can say that "many" m&c recipes start with a bechamel...that would be true.

[pikawicca]

Kase Spaetzle in Germany is a kissing cousin to American M&C. It's spaetzle noodles with lots of melted mild cheese. Very tasty.

[bad nono]

In France you do "coquillettes au gruyère" using very small elbow pasta. The cheese part is grated gruyère or emmenthal (I use comté or beaufort, better taste) that you melt on the stovetop with the just cooked pasta, some butter and a dash of nutmeg. I add diced ham to mine (jambon à l'os, bone-in ham).
Gooey melt-in-your-mouth goodness.
No crunchy bits. I cannot abide American mac & cheese, as I didn't grow up on the stuff. (anybody attempting to do the recipe must be warned that the pot is very hard to clean after)

[pikawicca]

I use my Berndes saucepan for this sort of preparation, so cleanup's a snap.

[EWSflash]

you're SO right about the crumbs vs cheese...

[sisterfunkhaus]

I absolutely use white sauce as a base, that would be the cheese sauce I referred to. Cheese sauce is bechamel with cheese melted into it. After I add the cheeses (including Velvetta) I add cream cheese, sour cream, and heavy cream if it needs thinning out. I also add Worchestershire and Tabasco. Bacon and buttered bread crumbs go on top. It is fabu and took me years to perfect. I had to do some out of the box thinking on it, but it rocks. We don't have it often b/c it is so bad for us.

[RetiredChef]

I just saw this post today and Mac & Cheese was my initial thought.

+1

[observor]

I agree...something about pasta without any real pasta sauce seems a little odd

[c oliver]

I think cheese sauce is sauce. Although not a fave of mine, think fettucine Alfredo. Or spaghetti carbonara.

[khoops]

Too true. I really just don't like it, whether it be Kraft/Velveeta/other cheap types or gussied up with a feather in its cap. The only kind I can eat is Annies brand, and even that leaves me feeling vaguely ick-ish.

[EarlyBird]

I used to say that until I met my wife and ate her mac and cheese. Simple and excellent. The trick is to use extra sharp cheddar cheese, canned condensed milk, and the right ratios. Most of the overrrated stuff uses very plain American cheese.

[roxlet]

Chicken Marbella from he Silver Palate. I don't get it -- people seem to love it -- and I find the combination of brown sugar and prunes more suited to a dessert than an entree. My husband attributes it to people haveing infintile tastes -- liking anything that is sweet. Save me from another dinner party where that is served as the entree!!

[Miss Needle]

You're not alone. I also find it a bit too sweet for my taste as well.

DH's answer would be roasted bone marrow. It's good, but he doesn't find it life altering as how some people make it out to be.

My answer about half a year to a year ago would have been toro. Every place (including some very notable Japanese sushi restaurants) I've had it served some sinews in it. So I didn't really get toro as the sinews got in the way of really appreciating the velvety texture. But I then had the most wonderful pieces of toro at Ushiwakamaru in NYC and totally understood what all the fuss was about.

Honestly, I don't know what my answer to this question would be. I can name off specific dishes at certain restaurants that I feel are overrated. But to say an entire dish is overrated everywhere? This, to me, sounds more like personal preference. There can be so many versions of a dish and there can be a huge variety in ingredient quality. And the skill of the cook definitely comes into play as well.

For example, I kind of understood where DH was coming from with the bone marrow until I had it at Prune in NYC. I've had bone marrow at some very well known places (eg. Blue Ribbon in NYC, St. John in London). I thought it was good (in fact, sometimes very good), but I didn't understand why people went ga ga over it. What was so great about it? I didn't find it transcendental. I guess the cynical side of me was wondering whether so many people raved about bone marrow because it was trendy and Bourdain proclaimed that he wanted it to be his last meal. But after having it at Prune, I understood it more. Prune's bone marrow was a lot more flavorful than the other examples I've had in the past. The other roasted bone marrows I've had in the past were well prepared, but I think the quality of the marrow at Prune really outshone the other examples. Must have come from one happy cow. However, roasted bone marrow (even Prune's) wouldn't even make it into my top 100 considerations for my last meal. But I do get other people's love for it more.

[lynnlato]

I wanted to try bone marrow when I was in the city earlier this year. We went firt to Landmarc and had there's and I too didn't get what all the hub bub was about. Then we went to Blue Ribbon Brasserie another night and I had there's, with the oxtail marmalade and I then I understood. I was a happy, happy girl. 'Course the few adult beverages I had preceding it could have contributed to my good mood too. :)

[nomadchowwoman]

While I'm a huge fan of the Silver Palate cookbooks, I never got Chicken Marbella. I'm in complete agreement. But then I just don't think chicken and sweet go together.

[Full tummy]

But I once had a wonderful chicken breast stuffed with goat cheese and apricots. Fabulous!

[khoops]

Please tell me where!

[Sal Vanilla]

Yeh, I do not get prunes and capers. Someone always wants to bring it to a potluck. The only thing I can imagine is that they hate the attendees. Bleck.

[buttertart]

Excellent, cooking as passive aggression.

[KaimukiMan]

Caviar. There is nothing wrong with it, but it just isn't all that.

[Veggo]

I think you are too young to remember the Iranian Caspian Sea beluga in the chilled tins, which is no longer imported. It was the real deal, although one could argue whether is was worth the price. My college girlfriend simply didn't care about the price.

[Passadumkeg]

In '69, I was " back in the USSR", ate so much Beluga and deep fried sturgeon, never considering that I would seldomly ever have it again.

[genmam]

I'm with you, KaimukiMan! And the next-worst is a very well-aged feta cheese. I know when something doesn't taste good.

[schmoopy]

I'd had tastes of caviar here and there over the years but never really appreciated it either until the evening several years ago that my husband and I went to this wonderful Russian restaurant in West Hollywood (which unfortunately is no longer there), Diaghelev. We started with a tasting sampler of 5 or 6 different caviars, starting with a relatively inexpensive one up to the most expensive, finest caviar. I don't remember all of them except I know it included osetra, sevruga and beluga. We intentionally started with the least expensive and worked our way up to the beluga and I have to say that it was an eye-opening and mind expanding experience! OMG! I finally understood what all the hubbub was about! It was served with the appropriate accoutrements (toast points, creme fraiche, etc.). We always talked about going back to try it again but never did, one of the reasons being that it was incredibly expensive. (We had splurged that night for our anniversary.). You want to know the ironic thing about all this? Growing up we had several Iranian family friends who would from time to time bring over giant tins of caviar that they had brought back with them from visits home (this was in the 70s) and I can still see my dad and those friends enjoying those giant tins of caviar.... I tried them of course but i was probably about 14 or 15 and I just didn't appreciate it. What I would give to experience having a giant tin of that Iranian caviar sitting in front of me to dig in to!! Okay, so my mouth is watering now... :o)

[c oliver]

How incredible that sounds. I'm eating some great homemade fried fish and onion rings but salivating for caviar :)

[SaltyRaisins]

Braised pork belly.
Kobe sliders (seems nobody knows what Kobe beef really is, and Kobe-style just ain't all that).
Bloomin'-onion.
Sweet potato fries.
Penne alla puttanesca.

[roxlet]

Pasta puttanesca is wonderful, if done right. I only eat it at home :-)

[flourgirl]

+1

[jcattles]

Sliders of any kind-they're always dry and tasteless

[TongoRad]

Sliders can be underwhelming, for sure, but the concept is pretty solid if you're at the right place. We have one in Hackensack, NJ (White Manna) that would make you a convert. I can't even think about going to White Castle anymore, there's such a huge quality gap between the two.

[dcdavis]

For Sliders, stick to White Castle and accept the consequences!

[mamachef]

Um, no. I like WC, please don't misunderstand? But White Manna's the Shizz!

[Passadumkeg]

Agreed.
White Rose System too. More meat, but still an authentic slider.

[khoops]

Oh Raisins, you've driven two stakes into my heart - namely, braised pork belly and sweet potato fries.

I'm just sort of confused on the pork, really. Granted it can be given too much credit just for being so fatty and "indulgent," but the flavor is absolutely incredible. I'll also give you that shoulder can also be wonderful when braised, but I feel that the belly has even more flavor.

Sweet potato fries can be dull and even gross when done wrong; they easily become soggy and nondescript. But if you'd ever had my brother's sweet potato fries, you might become a believer. He fries them in a pan with a couple inches of oil (I forget what kind but likely vegetable), then shakes them in a paper bag with cayenne pepper and brown sugar. I miss them dearly.

[SaltyRaisins]

You'll possibly convert me into a believer in those two. But I guess anything homemade is going to be special, especially your bro's fries. Just the whole trend of seeing these two items on too many menus these days has put me off them. As for pork belly, I think I may have started dislike the flavor based on less than good renditions- there is often a barnyard/sulfurous undertone that can gross me out even though I like strong flavored meats such as mutton, lamb and liverish beef fillet.

[smartie]

chicken marsala (with the wine) only the thin runny one - I love it with a creamy sauce otherwise it's meh.

[sisterfunkhaus]

I have to agree. I put dash of cream in mine and it makes all the difference. I like it fine with just the wine, but the cream takes it to a new level.

[MichelleRenee]

I love Carraba's chicken marsala. Rich and creamy.

[almond3xtract]

Anything involving panko.
Anything involving eel/squid/octopus.
Smoothies.
Organic anything (maybe I'm a hick, but I can never taste much difference).

[Veggo]

Eel/squid/octopus, really? Is it the squeamish factor, or could it be you have not had the "good stuff"?

[Fritter]

Squid is getting a bad rap from all that pre-breaded bait quality sysco suff that gets deep fried.
We have been getting the most wonderful fresh squid this summer.

[DallasDude]

I think it's funny that the word "Sysco" drives tremors into the heart of Chowhounds everywhere. As it should.

Squid, eel, and octopus (mmm baby octopus) delightful. Panko, and necessity in life.

[almond3xtract]

I have had the good stuff. It is not for me.

[EWSflash]

It's okay. More for me. :)

[HungryRubia]

For me organic is not about taste but rather about not wanting pesticides in my food. I think anyone who claims that organic actually tastes better or different is being silly...IMHO.

[alkapal]

you obviously missed -- or did you -- the organic milk thread fight last year.

[sisterfunkhaus]

Have you never had organic, heirloom tomatoes in season? They taste like a tomato should taste--never spongy or mealy.

[c oliver]

Why would a non-organic in-season tomato taste "spongy or mealy"?

[lagatta]

Well, "organic" may not be the keyword, although the best I've had were organic or near-organic by default, grown by old small farmers who didn't use any chemicals and tended their plants by hand. They taste wonderful and are rarely spongy or mealy, though adverse weather conditions can always deter peak flavour and texture.

[c oliver]

It was sisterfunkhaus' keyword which is why I questioned it. I personally don't believe that non-organic taste any different. As you say, weather conditions seem the culprit usually.

[All Dente]

Poor quality has to do with the variety and how early they pick it. Better tomatoes don't "truck" well. This used to be the case anyway. Now there are many hybrids. I still think what you are objecting to is from it not ripening on the vine.

[c oliver]

I agree with you completely. Regardless of the season I've never had a grocery store tomato that was anything special. And I think those hybrids are bred for thick skins and other "trucking" qualities. Like most florist roses have little to no aroma.

[Lindseyup67]

No panko? You have got to be kidding me! Panko is delish! Non greasy, tasty, crunchy as can be (even the next day, cold). What is not to like? IMO...overrated would have to be fresh mozeralla cheese......it tastes like....well....nothing.........

[Jacey]

I'm with you...I don't get the big deal with mozeralla cheese. It does taste like nothing. Cheese, in general, I think is way overrated. I know that comment will exert some comments. :)

[linguafood]

REAL, fresh buffalo mozzarella actually tastes wonderful. Whenever I'm in Germany for the summer I make sure to eat tons of it, since it is soooo much cheaper than in the U.S.

I refuse to pay $8.99 for one ball of mozzarella from Gustosella or whatever the hell it's called here, compared to 1.29 € back home.

It is nothing like what is sold as "fresh mozzarella" -- if you're eating that, you might as well be eating white play-do.

[EWSflash]

Doesn't Play-Doh have more flavor and smell?

[linguafood]

Ha. Most definitely more smell. Never tasted it, tho, so I have to defer to more knowledgeable hounds '-D

[fern]

You've never tasted Play-Do? Showoff.

[Full tummy]

Way more salt. Way, way, way.

[catspercapita]

Me three linguafood - the real fresh buffala mozzerella is heavenly. You have to go to a place that makes it on the premises . It doesn't package or travel well.

[monkeyrotica]

Don't tell that to the gourmet margherita places. Their customers don't like hearing they paid $30 for real mozzarella di buffala that doesn't travel well.

[small h]

Burrata. No one loves cheese more than I do, but I just don't see the attraction in this weird, runny, off-tasting stuff. It looks awfully pretty, though, with the leaves and all.

[roxlet]

Have to agree. We went to a mozzarella bar in Florence and ordered some. It was just too rich.

[Will Owen]

"Too rich"? Is that a valid category??

[small h]

It is for me. I find super-fatted cheese (like St. Andre) kind of gaggy.

[Vetter]

Burrata is hardly super fatted. It's a whole milk cheese. Not a triple cream! And leaves? I wonder if you mean something else.

[small h]

I didn't mean that burrata was super-fatted - it ain't. I was responding to Will Owen's query about "too rich" as a category. As to the leaves, yep, I mean burrata:

http://www.seriouseats.com/required_eating/images/20080602_burrata.jpg
http://asweetpea.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/burrata-image.jpg
http://www.mangiabenepasta.com/burrat...

[schmoopy]

Glad you clarified the "leaves" thing... I've had burrata in a dish too but didn't remember any leaves. I see that that's sometimes how it is presented. Thanks for the pictures. And I agree, very over-rated!

[DallasDude]

I adore a good burrata. We have a cheese factory in Dallas that makes an unusual version (I believe it is made differently to extend the usual short shelf life), link below. What is especially nice is a caprese using burrata. What a flavor diffrence, and the texture is dynamite. So fresh and creamy. If your burrat isn't up to par, you do not have a fresh burrata. The shelf live is essentially a day.

http://www.mozzco.com/

[sisterfunkhaus]

Mmmm. I wonder if Whole Foods or Central market carry it locally, or do you have to go there to get it? I could eat it in a day no problem.

[kjonyou]

The key to Burrata or fresh Mozzarella is you have to lightly salt and pepper it to bring out the subtle flavor. Much like tomatoes or avacados.

I had a killer BLT from a local place here and it was basicly Applewood bacon, mixed green, Heirloom Tomatoes and melted Burrata on toasted Sourdough. Mayo of course.

[alkapal]

i just saw a posting on another forum with a picture of burrata from the roman restaurant "rosciolo." it was served with fresh roasted tomatoes on the side. man oh man, did that look fabulous! <by the way, on FB and on this blog from "parla," you'll find some AWESOME italian -- specifically roman -- food : http://www.parlafood.com/a-guide-to-r... >

i've never even tasted burrata, and don't know where i could get any fresh here in d.c.?
maybe i'll ask at the place here ("arrowine") that often hosts local and national salumerias and dairies for tastings....

[buttertart]

You MUST taste it, it's a gorgeous cheese. Sexy (for a cheese, that is).

[linguafood]

our local pizza joint (makes both roman and neapolitan style) has a pizza with burrata on it (that and mortadella). it's amazing.

[buttertart]

Crikey, I bet it is. Love mortadella too.

[alkapal]

crikey seconded. can i say that?

[buttertart]

You can say whatever the hey you want, girlfriend.

[thew]

here in NYC i see it at gourmet markets and italian cheese shops often (citarella, agata & valentina, murray's cheese, etc) - so i would check the DC isomorphs

[roxlet]

Hey, I like triple creme cheeses as much as the next person, but there was just something about this burrata that was really nauseating. But I'm not sure what you mean by "valid category." What is that in reference to?

[luckyfatima]

I've not had ropa vieja, but I'd wager that it is one of the dishes that falls into the "better when done at home" category.

I think fleamarket-carnival BBQ turkey legs are over rated. They looks so juicy and like they would taste wondeful. But I have never had one that wasn't flavorless and dry.

Actually, generally speaking I find turkey to be overrated.

[laliz]

you know? you're right.
I always order with anticipation and it is always disappointing at carnivals.

[monkeyrotica]

Anything that calls itself "A playful re-imagining of the classic dish."
Any slider that doesn't come from Krystal/White Castle.
Tapas.

[almond3xtract]

White Castle is overrated!! Just smelling the outside of a WC makes me feel ill... So much grease!

[dmd_kc]

I'm just tired of calling small hamburgers and other similarly-shaped sandwiches "sliders." The name is grody (we all know where it comes from: http://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/slider_or_slyder_mini_hamburger/), but I don't mind the concept. They can be done really well. This thread is good:

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/598348

[robt5265]

the word 'grody' is just that.....

[alkapal]

funny -- i hadn't heard "grody" in a long time! LOL!
i mean, like, to the max!!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valspeak

[dmd_kc]

I stand by my "grody" as a child of the '80s with tongue firmly in cheek and a mastery of snark and by-now passe cynicism.

[tatamagouche]

Tapas?! In general? Or do you mean the overuse of the word by people who just mean appetizers?

Because some of my fave dishes of all time have been tapas: deep-fried marinated shark, patatas arrugadas, boquerones, pan con tamate, croquetas, albondigas de bacalao, pulpo a la gallega, sizzling baby eels, butifarra...

[alkapal]

""sizzling baby eels""

...cool band name. ;-).

[howlin]

+1 for that ,sound punk.

[khoops]

I'm with you, I'm curious what you mean by that. Is it possible you just got a rotten tomato of a restaurant? Or is it the trend-buzz around it that you're hung up on?

[Janet from Richmond]

Thanksgiving dinner is mine....the work/reward ratio is off the charts and it's a meal based on tradition with few shining stars.

[queencru]

YES! My family has no interest in it at all and everyone else I talk to thinks it's a tragedy. There's no one dish there that I feel I must have, nor is there anything I feel I really miss if I don't have it for Thanksgiving.

[Michelly]

I agree.Luckily for me -as the cook- we really do not have any family around to warrent doing the whole Thanksgiving meal (and you really do need to have all the fixin's). So we go out. I get to spend the day relaxing with my husband and kid, the kitchen stays clean, and wherever we go to eat, they usually offer something else besides just the traditional turkey (I'd rather have chicken piccata or salmon or prime rib over turkey any day, myself).
It'd be different if we had a whole bunch of people- one brings the salad, one brings the potatoes, one brings dessert, etc.- and after the meal, everything gets divided up and given away so we don't have to eat turkey until Christmas, but that's not our case.
And I like any day where I don't have to cook.

[Beckyleach]

I totally agree. Boring, bland food for the most part (turkey? Come on!) and everything is kept separate and "equal" and nothing has any real pizazz. Dishes up the wazoo, too.

The only redeeming grace is the pumpkin pie, which I prefer to eat for breakfast.

[Janet from Richmond]

I do the same with pumpkin pie.

[Steve]

The saving grace of Turkey is Turkey Gravy. No gravy in the world better. ANd Turkey gumbo is a rare and special treat. I make T-Day with onion pie, greens, baked sweet potatoes (never any butter,sugar,or marshmallows) and fresh cranberry sauce with only about 3/4 the sugar so it has a nice bitter flavor. Nothing boring about it at all.

[queencru]

Gravy is probably my least favorite part of Thanksgiving since it seems to be the most revered. The flavor isn't something I really enjoy, and turkey by itself is usually fairly dry. I just don't think the food is up my alley, even though most enjoy it.

[Janet from Richmond]

That's how I feel and it's a tremendous amount of work.

At Christmas we have beef tenderloin, scalloped potatoes, salad and veggie and it's a MUCH better meal and much less work.

[gordeaux]

Why would anyone have Turkey on Thanksgiving if they didn't like it?
We have Turkey, but usually smoked ribs, and a roast beef as well.
P.s. If anyone's turkey is dry, something is not being prepared correctly.

[Janet from Richmond]

Dh loves the meal (it's his favorite day of the year) and daughter loves turkey and they get all hopped up about it. It's the worse day of the year for me. And there are people who think the world will come to an end if they don't get a traditional Thanksgiving and unfortunately I married one of those people.

It's not so much that the turkey is bad, but the entire meal is not worth the work. And the roaster....cleaning the %$#@!* roaster. I sit through the entire meal knowing what clean up I will be facing doesn't make it any better either.

[gordeaux]

Why not assign clean up duties?
I think I have to have bird day at my house this year for the first time since we did the kitchen remodel and well, we got some pretty nice stuff. I'll be doing most of the cooking, and I will NOT be cleaning up anything. And you can bet yer sweet patoot that it's gonna be cleaner than when I started.
I'm talking cabinets getting wiped down, floors cleaned, oven cleaned - the whole kit-n-kaboodle. I don't mind cooking - actually, I love it. but I will NOT be cleaning up afterwards.

[Janet from Richmond]

Assigning duties just doesn't work out. Since Dh is the only one who knows the kitchen and makes a bigger mess cleaning up, is a poor dishwasher loader and gets the all of the counters, wet, etc. He also does his share of the cooking and is the king of dirtying every pot/pan/dish in the process.

It's one meal a year. My point from the beginning is that it is vastly overrated and I stand by that.

And look forward to a lovely, easy, tasty Christmas dinner. And lamb at Easter. And lobster on NYE.

[queencru]

I think other issues arise with assigning duties as well. I have some friends who put absolutely everything into the dishwasher, but I've had people try to "help" me clean up who put everything into the dishwasher and don't get that a drying rack is for clean pots, pans, and knives, not dirty ones. So I just end up doing MORE cleaning than I would otherwise if I cleaned myself.

[Janet from Richmond]

Exactly.

[Miss Needle]

I think there are some people who do it because it's tradition. Personally, I'm not too fond of roast turkey and the fixins myself. My family has had turkey for some Thanksgivings. But most of the time, we just had some roast chicken or roast beef. In the last few years, we've been having Chinese food.

[monkeyrotica]

I think what we're seeing in all the turkey hate is the fact that a lot of people don't know how to cook turkey. There's plenty of ways of making turkey that doesn't take all day and doesn't result in some shoeleather breast meat. I've brined them, smoked them, and did Julia Child's "doconstructed turkey" where you separate breast/wing from leg/thigh/back, stuff the latter, roast, then re-assemble. Done in well under two hours.

I have to wonder how much of the turkey hate is actually poorly cooked turkey and how much involves just being trapped with irritating relatives during the holidays? If the latter's the case, you need to up your bourbon intake.

[Janet from Richmond]

The turkey is prepared fine. I have had a plethora of what are considered "good turkeys" during my life. My issue (which it seems I am not making clear) is how much work it takes to have and clean up in order to have "good turkey" and that it's not that great of a dish. It's fine. It's harmelss. It's a hell of a lot of work. And the trimmings are no big deal either.

It's not the worst meal on the planet, but for the work it takes, there is nowhere near the reward they should be for that amount of work.

As a comparison....lets look at our friend the standing rib roast. Little work, lots of reward. Same with lamb chops, pork roast or even a roasted chicken. And that is before we venture into seafood.

[c oliver]

When I do a turkey - for any reason - it's butterflied, sprinkled with oregano and lime juice, put on indirect heat on a Weber kettle and is done in two hours. No mess, no fuss.

I don't fix meals that give me angst, no matter how much someone whines. If they want it that badly, they can do it themselves. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.

[schmoopy]

Janet, I am so with you on this and I totally get what you're saying about the reward vs. the amount of work involved. About 6 years ago, my mother decided to invite all the family out for Thanksgiving (there are about 18 of us) to give everyone a break from all the hullaballoo. Previously, we all took turns having it at our houses and even with everyone bringing something it was still so much work. Well, i have to tell you that that was the MOST enjoyable Thanksgiving we had ever experienced. Our family loves to get together, we all love to eat and drink good wine, we enjoy each other's company, and that's exactly what we did. Now every Thanksgiving we choose a nice place, we all split the cost, and we enjoy a wonderful Thanksgiving with everything prepared for us, and everyone goes home happy and not overworked. It's so worth it. The thing I love about Thanksgiving is that its the only holiday that we're all in town and so everyone is together and there's no stress involved. We still do Christmas dinners and Easter dinners at each other's homes, depending on who's in town, but Thanksgiving is the holiday where we just enjoy each other's company, and enjoy the tradition of Thanksgiving. We're very thankful! And it's wonderful!

[Janet from Richmond]

We tried going out last year and it was a disaster. And we ended up cooking at home as well as Dh had to have a turkey with leftovers and then he had to have mashed potatoes and stuffing, etc. And we ended up paying the entire meal for the family (which always happens with our family dinners). It was the worst of both worlds.

[queencru]

I've had well-cooked turkey, but it still didn't do much for me. The last time I had Thanksgiving dinner 2 years ago, the turkey was cooked well. Nonetheless, there was nothing to do to make me really love that meal. To me, it's just going to be okay even on the best of days, and awful on the worst. I haven't been to a family Thanksgiving in years because my family doesn't care for it, so that's definitely not the issue.

[FrankD]

If your turkey is dry, you're not cooking it properly. I've probably cooked a hundred turkeys in my life, and after the first few experiments, and some coaching from Mom, I have it perfect now. The breast is moist and juicy, and the dark meat is rich and succulent. I do my stuffing two ways - one in the bird, and another cooked outside in a casserole. This gives you two different types - one quite wet, and one dry and crunchy. I like to mix the two. Add parsnips, broccoli, and either sweet potatoes or mashed turnips, (plus cranberry of course), and you have a beautiful, colourful, delicious plate. Note: no green bean casserole, no sweet potatoes with marshmallow, etc. Everyone in the family loves Thanksgiving dinner, maybe because we stay away from the last two dishes mentioned...

[queencru]

I never said the turkey was dry- I just said if a turkey is cooked properly, I'm still underwhelmed. It's just not a meal I enjoy or go out of my way to have, regardless of the preparation. No one in my family likes it either, and I went to a friend's place a few years ago where they weren't into it much more than I was.

[FrankD]

You wrote: ". The flavor isn't something I really enjoy, and turkey by itself is usually fairly dry."

Pardon me for misinterpreting this as meaning your turkey is usually dry.

[sebetti]

The yearly Turkey discussions are always so amusing - the Turkey enthusiasts just can't believe that some people just aren't that in to Turkey and the Turkey non-enthusiasts end up having to go on the defensive.

I actually double checked dates just make sure this somehow wasn't an old thread.

My house:
Extended Family visiting - Turkey
No one visiting: Standing rib roast.

And I really can't understand why ANYONE would choose Turkey over a roast. Case closed.

[queencru]

I didn't realize you were replying to something farther up the thread--- sometimes it's hard to tell. I do find that turkey is usually dry, but I've had moist turkey and still don't care for it unless it's in a sandwich with something else.

[fern]

Midnight turkey sandwich with Hellman's and salt is the best part of Thanksgiving dinner. And I *like* the meal! :)

[Steve]

Yeah. somehow the turkey flavor improves as it gets older. I spoon a little bit of the refrigerated gravy into my Hellman's.

[monkeyrotica]

I'll take an hot open-face turkey sandwich with gravy or a turkey club with extra bacon and mayo over Thanksgiving roast any day. For me, turkey is one of those meals that is better the next day.

[fern]

Hot open-faced with mashed and gravy is wonderful. I do love some of the leftovers, including soup, pot-pie with lots of crust, sandwiches. Still, I love that T-day meal, too! Love the crispy skin and the side dishes on THE DAY, enjoy the turkey transformed into sandwiches etc after that.
It's hard to believe it will be here before we know it!

[Divamac]

I agree. I cook T'giving every year and I love to do it even if no one appreciates it. And if your work/reward ratio is based on other people enjoying and appreciating your hard work, well, that's never going to happen especially in a family of non-cooks. (Actually my MIL does appreciate it).

But what no one knows is that my reward is dinner the next day complete with mashed potato pancakes, hot turkey and gravy and whatever else wasn't finished he next day. It has, for my whole life, been my favorite dinner of the year. You can't get a great leftovers without the work of making the meal

[sisterfunkhaus]

A real turkey gravy made with the fond (not made with cream of chicken soup and boiled eggs) white wine, herbes de Provence and a touch of cream helps the turkey in wonderful ways. I do think turkey is very bland overall, even when well prepared, but a good gravy changes it all.

[phantomdoc]

I make my gravy with bourbon and it is good. I got the idea from the picture on the bottle.

[Full tummy]

Oh, oh, oh, but all those stars can and should shine. I love me some crispy-skinned brined turkey. How to go wrong with mashed potatoes? Moroccan spiced roasted veggies? Cranberry sauce with cloves, cinnamon, nutmeg, and orange. Divine pumpkin pie I look forward to all year. No need for bland or boring, People. Maybe some of you are making it more difficult than it needs to be? True, the bird is awkward. What about turducken, haha?

[Janet from Richmond]

We have mashed potatoes throughout the year. Roasted turkey....yawn. Leftover turkey even bigger yawn. I make my own cranberry sauce and it's good, but the whole day of staring in the am and the 12 hour event for some turkey and fixings just isn't worth it IMO.

[queencru]

That's my main issue. It just takes a lot of preparation for something that just doesn't turn out to be something that isn't all that spectacular. I know a lot of people start with various dishes the night before (for the 1-2pm Thanksgiving dinner) and I just don't feel like it is worth it. You can cook a wonderful Thanksgiving meal in a few hours if you aren't stuck on using all the traditional ingredients.

[Janet from Richmond]

And I hate facing the leftovers and having to wrap them up, divvy them out, wash the roaster and hand was numerous serving dishes because it's great-grandmother's special dish...blah, blah, blah. That's before I tackle wine glasses and the dishes that will go into the dishwasher (which there will be 2-3 loads of).

And then we get to have that same meal for the next 3 or so days (or until I have the post Thanksgiving meltdown and throw them all out in one fell swoop).

[queencru]

I remember I came home for Christmas one year after living in Japan for about 5 months. I was home for about 9 days and wanted to eat as much as possible that wasn't available in Japan, but instead I got stuck with turkey leftovers for 3-4 days. I was crushed beyond belief.

[Full tummy]

But surely all the serving dishes and wine glasses have nothing to do with it being a turkey that you served... It seems that all that, which you've associated with turkey, would be required for any family celebration dinner.

[Janet from Richmond]

The issue is that there are sooooooo many more dishes for Thanksgiving than for Christmas or Easter or other celebratory dinners. And, no, Thanksgiving is the only one with "grandma's turkey platter, grandma's mashed potato bowl, etc." And it's also the only occassion with a frightful amount of leftovers to deal with.

[thew]

its also one of the few that is inclusive of all american's, not just members of the majority culture/creed

[Full tummy]

Hahahaha, Janet from Richmond, methinks you just don't like turkey....

There is no need for huge quantities of leftovers, if you buy the right size bird. They come in a vast range of sizes. There is nothing inherent to turkey, mashed potatoes, and stuffing that necessitates all these problems. Use a different platter... use a different bowl... If you just don't like turkey, that's one thing. I mean, if you cook 20 pounds of beef tenderloin, you'll have to serve it on something, serve it with something, and have lots of leftovers, too.

You don't want turkey, that's fine. But, the bird's not the problem.

Edit: I do concede picking the meat off the bones is annoying: Hubby looks after that, though, so I almost forgot about it. Great stock comes from those bones, though.

[Janet from Richmond]

Dh is so afraid of not having enough leftovers that we always get a huge bird. Turkey is "okay". For that much work I want to be wowed and turkey does not wow me.

And I chuck the carcass or send it home with my brother to make stock.

And trust me, there is ALWAYS more leftover turkey than there is beef. Always.

[Atahualpa]

Um . . . Maybe your DH think you guys never have enough leftovers and buys such a big bird because you "have the post Thanksgiving meltdown and throw them all out in one fell swoop"?

Honestly, the excessive leftovers are totally avoidable.

In fact, since having so much left-over is an issue, maybe if you had a small bird, a small number of sides and no leftovers you would enjoy it enough that you could then do it again at some other times of the year and please everyone.

[Janet from Richmond]

We could have an entire extra Thanksgiving dinner and he would not think it's enough. He's one of those people who adores Thanksgiving and for me it falls under the "or worse" category of "for better or for worse" in our vows. Changes, adjustments, compromise, etc. do not work out. It's either divorce (BTDT) or tolerate Thanksgiving and I love Dh enough to tolerate it. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

[Divamac]

Maybe if your husband had to cook Thanksgiving dinner he would change his tune. :)

[Janet from Richmond]

He shares in the cooking (does the turkey, dressing and mashed potatoes).

[c oliver]

Well, shit, make a salad and let 'er rip. Stop being an enabler if you want some unsolicited advice :)

[miriamjo]

Depends on what you consider "traditional ingredients". If that includes that horrible green bean soup casserole I would agree. And just hate sweet potatoes with marshmallows (gag). But stick them in the oven for a nice baked sweet, no work and good. I brine my turkey which always turns out lovely and moist. Besides, where are you going to get the makings for turkey soup? I love having a bunch of container of turkey soup in the freezer for a quick meal on a nasty winter's day.

[Full tummy]

Oh, I see. Well, I guess I'm different. We just don't eat mashed potatoes at all throughout the year. It's mostly brown rice, healthy stuff. So, I do look forward to the turkey dinner; I also like turkey, however, which it doesn't seem you're that fond of. I even enjoy leftover turkey, turkey casserole, creamed turkey, turkey sandwiches, turkey pot pie, etc., I like having food for a whole week afterwards and hardly having to do a bit of work to pull meals together. And the stuffing I forgot to mention... Stuffing is great, and it just doesn't go with filet mignon...

[spellweaver16]

For the past several years, the stars of my family's Thanksgiving have been a ham and a huge stockpot full of homemade chicken and noodles. Thigh and leg meat cooked in the pressure cooker and picked off the bone the night before by me with the gelatin and cooking liquid saved for the gravy, hand-made noodles, all over mashed potatoes. I look forward to it every year.

[Full tummy]

Ham, yum. Come to think of it, I made ham at Easter this year. A huge one. It was delicious. And lots of leftovers, too. Needed to be served on a platter, with scalloped potatoes, homemade apple sauce and a bunch of other dishes. No less work than serving turkey (aside, perhaps, from the brining of the turkey, if you do that -- I do.)

[Janet from Richmond]

We generally have a ham in the frig at all times (after all, I am in Virginia). For Easter we typically have lamb chops or leg of lamb and a couple of sides. Nothing like the plethora of dishes at Thanksgiving: Turkey, two kinds of dressing, cranberry sauce, oystew stew, sweet potatoes, mashed potatoes, gravy, rolls, corn and fresh green beans.

[queencru]

We had ham weekly when I was growing up. I wasn't aware that it was considered a holiday treat to some until I was much older.

[lagatta]

Idem many Christmas dinners. (I am from Québec and while Thanksgiving is celebrated in Canada, as a traditionally Protestant holiday it is not generally big here - yes, of course there are exceptions). Nowhere is it as important up here as in the US. I can't abide bland servings of big hunks of meat and overcooked veg as "holiday" food.

I don't find turkey uninteresting but as it is very, very lean, it is not the best thing to roast. It can work very well in other dishes.

But since Thanksgiving is a harvest festival, you can make any nice local foods you like. In the Americas, I would include Indigenous foods (turkey is one, of course, but there are other meats), and corn, beans, squash.

[Normandie]

lagatta, Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday and my favorite day of the year, but then I'm pretty much a New England Puritan, through and through. :-) I love my home region and anything that celebrates and preserves our traditions.

But I'm interested in hearing a little bit about Thanksgiving in Canada. Am I confusing it with another holiday, or isn't your Thanksgiving observed in the beginning of October? What are some of the traditional T-Day dishes that would be served in the diverse regions of beautiful Canada?

[Atahualpa]

Same day as US Columbus day.

The traditional foods in Ontario seem to be:

Roast turkey, gravy, mashed potatoes, cranberry sauce, simple bread and herb stuffing (I have never encountered the range of stuffings you find in the states), pumpkin pie.

There's nothing else that seems to be particularly traditional around here. Maybe in other parts of the country?

Christmas is definitely the bastion of the traditional family gathering here, though. Thanksgiving passes with much less attention.

[lagatta]

Yes, same as your Columbus Day. Same foods as Atalhualpa said, if people make them. I know nobody, French, English or other speaking here who makes Thanksgiving Dinner, but some people do. (And if there is a day off, there will definitely be food involved, and it will of course be harvest-related now).

Here in Québec, traditionally the culmination of family gatherings is New Year's Day, an important celebration among both French and Scots.

There will be turkey and other foods not very different from those of New England, in New France, but there will definitely also be tourtière, which is also eaten among the large Franco-American communities in Lowell and other New England mill towns.

Do hope that promised fast train (TGV) between Montréal and Boston, stopping off in Vermont and New Hampshire, actually becomes reality!

[vorpal]

Egad! I can't believe how many haters of Thanksgiving there are. I feel hugely in the minority fostering my deep love of turkey and the carbohydrate binge that accompanies it. I look forward to jamming my face full of apple-onion-celery bread stuffing, roasted garlic mashed potatoes, and copious quantities of turkey gravy every year.

Then again, Thanksgiving dinner is quite an "exotic" meal for me: I usually eat some type of Asian food about 95% of the time, so having a traditional English / North American meal always feels like a real treat to me.

[EWSflash]

Finally- somebody who feels the same way I do about Thanksgiving. Thank you, Vorpal!

[vorpal]

My pleasure! It's good to know that I'm not alone on this!

[moh]

I totally hear you on the "Thanksgiving is exotic" thing. I grew up on Korean food, so for me, mashed potatoes was the bee's knees! Yay! Western food! Awesome! I am sick of kimchi!

Of course, now that I am out of the house, and eat much more Western style food, I have become more and more nostalgic about Homestyle Korean food.....

I am not the biggest fan of turkey, I actually prefer duck and a well-roasted chicken. But I do love gravy, mashed potato, stuffing, cranberry jelly, all the traditional fixings that accompany turkey, it makes you feel so warm on a cold fall evening.

[shaogo]

It took me a while to be able to come up with this post.

I would sit through a Thanksgiving dinner from a Swanson's frozen food tray if I could have one more Thanksgiving celebration the way it was when my father was alive.

Although we do enjoy a somewhat "gourmet" Thanksgiving, I feel it's so much more about the company - the family - than about the food (one day a year!)

[alkapal]

shaogo, your post is very touching. you're right -- its about the people ( mainly ;-). let's put the "thanks" back in thanksgiving! (i'm guilty of calling it turkey day, i must confess!).

[carswell]

I so agree. Overrated doesn't begin to describe it. The traditional feast has not a single redeeming feature: roast turkey (Saharan dry or pickled-tasting, i.e. brined), stuffing (goop or sawdust), cranberry sauce (an abomination, especially the canned version), sweet potato casserole (miniature marshmallows, WTF?), green bean casserole (Depression food) and, adding insult to injury, pumpkin pie (a crime against perfectly good pie crusts). What's not to hate? I've dreaded the holiday since I was a little kid and consider myself fortunate that I've spent nearly all my adult life in a place where it's not celebrated.

[DallasDude]

Julia Childs said to Pepin that she loved the marshmallow version of the sweet potato. I was floored to see that.

[thew]

good for her. the perfect pin to pop the foodista elitist bubble

[thew]

i'm not the hugest fan of turkey, in general - but there are other options than sand and pickle, when cooked right. and it is possible to cook it right.

[carswell]

I've eaten hundreds of turkeys over the years, some of which I've had a hand in making and some others of which were prepared by expert chefs and home cooks. Only one was an experience I would care to revisit: a bird small enough to put on the rotisserie of a backyard grill and repeatedly basted with butter. But roasted turkeys at the traditional Thanksgiving/Christmas dinner? Losers all.

[Steve]

I sense from your post that you are neither deciding the menu for your Thanksgiving nor doing the cooking. All stuffing is bad, all cranberry sauce is bad, you can't bake sweet potatoes or have lost the recipe, and you are stuck with only one dessert.

I say dump the breadfruit trees overboard.

[Full tummy]

Oh gosh, a properly brined bird is not pickled-tasting, hahaha. Does adding salt to something instantly render it pickled? Maybe you left your bird in bath for a wee bit too long???

[alkapal]

esp. since pickling involves...um....vinegar!

[carswell]

Not necessarily. From www.merriam-webster.com (shouting emphasis mine):

Main Entry: pick·le
Pronunciation: \ˈpi-kəl\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English pykyl, pekill sauce, gravy, from or akin to Middle Dutch peeckel brine
Date: 15th century

1 : a solution or bath for preserving or cleaning: as a : a BRINE or vinegar solution in which foods are preserved b : any of various baths used in industrial cleaning or processing

[alkapal]

brining is understood generally not to include vinegar, or acid. we ain't talkin middle dutch, my friend.

[carswell]

No, but pickling can involve brine (i.e. a salt solution) and not vinegar.

[carswell]

No, when the brining fad first started, I was intrigued, especially since I'm not a fan of dry, white meat. I've tried it many times over the years, following instructions from reputable sources like Judy Rodgers (Zuni Cafe) and Alice Waters (Chez Panisse), on a variety of meats and seafood. While it does mitigate the dryness, it also leaves everything tasting corned or pickled or brined (take your choice), unfresh and ultimately untasty.

[alkapal]

brining, i disagree, does not render the results that you say are typical, by any means.

[carswell]

YMMV. I've never had a brined meat I've found to be an improvement, and that includes corned beef. And I can always tell when something's been brined.

[Full tummy]

There is a big difference in flavour change between a brisket brined for seven plus days, in a salty solution with pickling spices, and a turkey that's been brined for four hours in salt water. There is no way any turkey I've brined tastes like it's been pickled. It's more tender, yes, it's saltier, yes, marginally so, but I have never had a single person suggest it tastes pickled. I mean, come on, a chicken boiled in salt water will taste different than one boiled in unsalted water...

What is different about the brining of the turkey and other pickling is that the process the turkey undergoes has nothing to do with preservation, and so I don't think it would fall under the pickling definition.

According to Wikipedia:

"Pickling, also known as brining or corning, is the process of preserving food by anaerobic fermentation in brine (a solution of salt in water) to produce lactic acid, or marinating and storing it in an acid solution, usually vinegar (acetic acid)"

This has nothing to do with what happens to my Thanksgiving/Christmas turkey.

[carswell]

I didn't say brined turkey was actually pickled but that it tastes pickled (or corned or brined, if you will). The brining as a preservative line of argument is a red herring; no one is claiming that the purpose of brining a turkey is anything other than making the meat less dry and, in some cases, to give it more flavour.

I find brining changes the flavour of the meat and does so in ways I don't find appetizing. Yes, saltier. But also less fresh, less natural, a little like many cold cuts don't taste fresh or natural. It's obvious a lot of people don't mind -- may even appreciate -- the change. I'm not one of them. And as a technique for redeeming a virtually irredeemable meat, it fails. In my opinion, of course. Feel free to feel otherwise. The original poster's question is, after all, about our opinions. You're entitled to yours, just as I'm entitled to mine.

[pikawicca]

You've obviously never had a well-raised bird, well-prepared, despite your claims to the contrary. I roast a heritage breed every year for Thanksgiving (unbrined), and it's always succulent, with a deep, satisfying flavor. I think you simply don't like turkey. That's fine, but it's not fine to call it "irredeemable."

[Full tummy]

What kind of bird do you get? I wonder if I might be able to find it in my area (Ontario).

[carswell]

Sorry but there's nothing obvious about it whatsoever. I don't stint when it comes to meat; almost never buy it in a grocery store; almost always deal with butchers who source from local producers (and Quebec producers are some of the best in North America); buy free-range/organic whenever I can afford it, including the last couple of turkeys I bought. And, as an experienced and conscientious cook, I always treat meat with appropriate respect and care. But you're right, I don't like turkey. The blandest, milquetoastiest of meats. The FAIL of fowl. And, to return to the topic of this thread, way overrated.

[Full tummy]

Well, hey, we don't all have to like the same thing. Like you, I have generally disliked turkey. Unlike you, I discovered I liked turkey when I started brining my birds. Before that discovery, I had banished turkey from my table and replaced it with a nice capon each holiday dinner. This past Thanksgiving I ate a non-brined bird at someone else's house one night, then my own brined bird the next and was reminded of why I used to hate turkey.

[observor]

You are bonkers. You have not had a properly brined turkey then because it is amazing...tender, flavorful, and far from dry. It takes a little effort, but the turkey will be amazing.

[sisterfunkhaus]

A freshly baked sweet potato topped with pecans, cinnamon, and a sauce of brown sugar and butter is a delightful substitute for the canned marshmallow casserole.

[turqmut]

Absolutely! I'd be perfectly happy with sausage stuffing and a spinach/apple/cranberry/almond salad, but that's not going to cut it with the family. Hours of preparation, hours of clean-up, three people cooking full tilt at the end and it should be the best meal EVER. But the traditional foods are just so not worth it.

[westsidegal]

COMPLETELY AGREE, janet.
thanksgiving = a bland grease-bomb of a meal the preparation of which leaves every pot and pan in the kitchen dirty and crusted.

[JungMann]

Chicken parmesan. The idea sounds good until you get a plate of naked chicken with its mushy breading floating in underseasoned sauce and rubbery mozzarella stretching out like a Teamster. The same goes for chicken francese, eggplant parm... and come to think of it, you can add penne alla vodka and much Italian-American food to that list.

[cookieluvntasha]

All of the dishes you mentioned have the potential of being awesome with the right amount of time, effort, and good ingredients. Lots of ppl make these dishes and they are mediocre, but when you have the right touch and know whet the f*** your doing in the kitchen, those meals are classic. Had some penna alla vodka a couple weeks ago...nasty...but the host and his wife thought it was the best stuff they had ever eaten...THATS why those dishes fail.

[c oliver]

Can I assume you weren't referring to JungMann when you commented on people who don't know what the *** they're doing? I'd pay to live next door to him ANY time.

[JungMann]

You're quite right, Tasha, these dishes can be a decadent riot of richness and crisp breading, yet more often than not, "Wait til you taste my Mamma's cooking" means floppy meat and string cheese. Either there are a lot of folks who don't know what they're doing in the kitchen or there are some pretty faulty recipes being passed down the line!

[NellyNel]

I agree -
All of those dishes do have great potential to be disatrous!!
And for a while there - you certainly would know better than to ever order them in a restaurant
However - when done well they are all absolutely sublime!
I am very sorry Jung if you have never had the pleasure of experiencing them done correctly....really it is a great shame

[sisterfunkhaus]

My pet peeve is too much breading on eggplant. When I eat it out, it's all breading and no eggplant. It is absolutely delicious when roasted in the oven with olive oil, topped with a light sauce and a bit of fresh cheese and baked. I know breading free isn't traditional, but it is devine.

[FrankD]

Oh, Mann.. talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water. Just because some people over cook roast beef until it's shoe leather (my grandmother, for instance), do you stop eating roast beef? Just because you've had a steak that's been grilled to a crisp, you don't eat steak anymore?

Are there lots of crummy versions of chicken/veal/eggplant parmigiana out there? Absolutely. There's lots of crummy "everything" out there in the world. Does that mean a good chicken parmigiana is terrible? Absolutely not. I've had some wonderful ones where the sauce is fantastic, the breading is light and crisp, and the mozzarella is fresh and tasty.

[JungMann]

I think that's the first time someone has told me, "Oh Mann," good one! When the majority of iterations of a particular dish turn out contrary to the hype, then I call it overrated. Perhaps I need to be educated in the ways of good chicken parmigiana, but living in what some would consider the capital of Italian-American cuisine, I have yet to encounter a chicken parm that compares to a decent chicken katsu, schnitzel or chicken fried chicken in terms of flavor and texture. Still, I have an open mind if you have any suggestions.

[NellyNel]

Damn mann! Let me cook you some!!
(I must admit my chicken parm is amazing)

[cavandre]

Veal parm gets my vote...It's a waste of good veal & can't hide bad veal.

[mrbigshotno.1]

Everything on the menu at "El Charro" in Tucson, AZ.

[EWSflash]

OMG, sacrilege- and you're so damn right. I've had good meals at the original downtown, the rest, meh to bad. And I'm not THAT big of a Mexican food snob. These people have not only overreached, they've partnered with Bob McMahon, for crying out loud, and no good can come from that, except into McMahon's pockets. Same with Nimbus- the new one on Tanque Verde has McMahon food.

Go ahead- cry into your beer. I wish that man would retire and put himself out of our misery.

[dcdavis]

Even the Carne Seca????? And I agree about McMahon

[Will Owen]

Looks to me like y'all are pretty much picking the one thing that everyone else seems to like but you hate, which is ... reasonable. Gotta have a place to vent. So allow me to say that a lovely well-browned fluffy omelet is something I don't want to even be in the same room with. To me that egg is burnt, and burnt egg = burnt hair in my books. My perfect omelet is non-fluffy, cooked in butter, and at the most very faintly tanned in spots.

I also simply do not get soufflés. Or meringue, or sweet custard; Isle Flottant is one of the most dismal desserts I can imagine. I love eggs, I adore eggs, but PLEASE only with onions, bacon, cheese, stuff like that. Okay, so I like eggnog, but that comes with booze...

[Steve]

Ile Flottant also mystifies me. Calorie soup.

[Will Owen]

Calories I don't mind. I just find meringue annoyingly vacant and sweet custard a bit nauseating, though I'll admit it's getting less so, I'm sure because my tasting abilities are waning with age; I remember my 80+ YO grandpa, the family's best cook and a real gourmand, telling me that instant mashed potatoes had now gotten so good they tasted just like fresh. Poor man; we gagged them down and faked our compliments.

[vorpal]

I've only ever had iles flottantes twice, and concur that both times, held in the context of dessert, they felt "vacant"; however, by shifting my mindset and not thinking of them as dessert per se, I ended up enjoying them and found them to be rather a refreshing, light palate cleanser at the end of a rich meal.

[schmoopy]

Calorie soup! Ha! that's great! And so spot on!

[blair_houghton]

Soufflés are great when properly executed.

It's Lava Cake that I wish would go the way of the Jell-o mold.

I wonder if Vongerichten gets a royalty for every one Domino's sells...

[gordeaux]

BBQ ribs that have been "bbq'd" by putting bbq sauce on them and.

Hot dogs.

Anything that highlights the fact that it has been made with boneless, skinless, chicken breast. <eyeroll>

Anything made with "deli style" lunchmeat. Who in the WORLD marketed that garbage, and how is it even accepted as food?

[Steve]

"BBQ ribs that have been "bbq'd" by putting bbq sauce on them"

Pay the Man.

[alkapal]

LOL!!!

"Pay the Man."

indeed!

[EarlyBird]

Oh Gordeaux, not my beloved hot dog! I LOVE hot dogs. Oh, but I'm with you on the ribs which have been grilled then had BBQ sauce added to them. No thanks.

[GodfatherofLunch]

I just don't get sun dried tomatoes . They just over power everything.

[blair_houghton]

Have you tried them in chipotle?

[laliz]

har de har har

[dcdavis]

And some Sriracha:)

[alkapal]

laliz, you get my belly-laugh-of-the-day-appreciation award.

you cracked me up.

<i'm just thinking of the sun-dried tomatoes in chipotle and sriracha. that must be *some* chowhounds' dream condiment!>

[nomadchowwoman]

Oh, alkapal, you're not dissin' sriracha, are you? It's so good mixed in mayo.

[linguafood]

It makes one rockin' BLT.

[nomadchowwoman]

You got that right! Add some arugula (the greatest trend that never died!)--sublime. My lunch yesterday.

[weewah]

BAH HAHAHAHAHAHAH!

[smartie]

ooh I agree, nasty things.

[Sparkina]

I think sun-dried tomatoes make any dish taste divine! So let's agree to disagree

[FrankD]

Shark's fin soup. This is absurdly expensive (one Toronto spot charges $68 per bowl), and I can't for the life of me understand the excitement. The shark fin is usually rubbery, and the flavours are so, er, subtle, they're hard to detect. Give me a decent bowl of hot and sour any day.

[dmd_kc]

Dude, it's a mystique, not a flavor. I'd never try it in a million years for a variety of reasons, but c'mon -- there's nothing in that poor fish's fin that could flavor a soup to equal its billing. Snake oil in food form.

[limster]

I would argue that is not so much mystique as real appeal, when properly made (like any dish). Sharksfin soup appeal lies in both the texture of the fin (slightly crunchy) as well as the flavour from being cooked in a stock. The fins are very expensive as an ingredient, but the stuff that goes into the stock can also rival the fin in price. It may consist of various meat stocks and a panel of dried seafood (various with cuisine, style). Sharksfin is just as absurdly expensive as caviar I guess, although there tends to be a lot more labour involved in preparing the dish properly. A proper sharkfins may need to be braised or double boiled for a serious amount of time. Of course the quality of a dish can vary from place to place, as can the fins. There are lot of good reasons not to eat sharksfin, but when properly made, the flavour and texture are not part of those reasons.

[Humbucker]

The thing is, the flavor is mostly due to the non-fin items that get added to the stock (I LOVE the salty ham that gets cooked in the broth) and you would think that modern food science would be able to come up with a glass-noodle-like product that replicates the texture of shark's fin. I grew up eating shark's fin every year but I no longer partake because the environmental cost just isn't worth the benefits. I think even shark's fin fans are into it more for the aura and mystique surrounding it rather than the taste or texture.

[limster]

Yes -- the flavour comes from the stock, as mentioned above.

Modern science has indeed come out with a sharksfin-like product -- I vaguely remember reading about fake sharksfin being a lucrative business. But those versions then to fall apart easily and won't handle a couple of days of slow cooking.

Actually, I had a steamed skate wing in a Japanese place many years ago -- the chef suggested that I eat the bones -- it's not a horrible substitute and has a similar tetural appeal. Afterall they're both cartilaginous fish.

I also grew up eating sharksfin, and were fortunate to have had a few that were exceptional (whole intact fin rather than loose silvers, with just the right crunchy texture) -- it's these that I speak of, not of the run of the mill renditions. But it's great to agree to disagree, we need more diverse opinions here, not less.

[thew]

as a side note - the sickest i ever got from food was from a shark's fin/ bird nest soup in thailand near the malaysian border. unfairly to the soup - i'm never going to have it again....

[DallasDude]

Every Asian market I have been to has a frozen imitation sharks fun product. Not interested, but it is there.

[EWSflash]

Just for clarification, you meant "frozen imitation shark's fin", right? Or are they really selling frozen imitation surfers out there?

[DallasDude]

slip of the 'i'

[monkeyrotica]

Brunch. Take two good meals and make one lousy one, except with a slice of cantelope and a noisy crowd. What's the point of 497 different ways of doing eggs if you can't get "scrambled" right? $24.95.

[gordeaux]

Come to Chicago, we'll do brunch at one of my go to spots. you'll eat every word you just wrote. But I have been to lousy brunch services and do know what you're talking about. You gotta learn how to keep focused on the seafood, chocolate covered strawberries, fresh squeezed juices and made to order waffles for dessert. And if you see a new tray of ANYTHING being brought out, go investigate. 24.95 is a bit of a stretch, but I can make it worthwhile in the 18 dollar range.

[almond3xtract]

A few months ago, I went to what is supposed to be the best brunch spot in Chicago. Can't remember what the name of the place is, but it's gaudily Grandma-decorated and a bit pricey. Everything is a la carte. I had challa French toast which was okay, but I can make better food at home, get better service, and deal with less pretension.

[gordeaux]

who voted something like that the "best brunch spot in the city?"

[Reignking]

Maybe it was in the back of an airline magazine. Top 10 Brunch Spots in America.

[gordeaux]

IMO - Those top ten lists are part of the reason sites like Chowhound exist.
So ppl can get the information they need from ppl near the source who have similar interests. I read things like that all the time and when I see the Best Pizza in Chicago, or best steakhouse in chicago, or best BBQ in Chicago, It's a joke. Quick example: I have lived in Chicago most of my life. I only get Deep Dish or Stuffed pizza when I am entertaining guests from outta town. I personally do not have any friends in the Chicago area that PREFER deep dish / stuffed piza over the Chicago thin crust pizza. But of course, every Chicago "best pizza" list in some out of town based ragazine is gonna list spots for deep dish piza.

[schmoopy]

One of our family jokes is when you go to Las Vegas and every place claims to be "Voted the Best _______ in Las Vegas"! We always have a good laugh about that. Not surprisingly, Las Vegas seems to be the king of that sort of thing.

[Alan N]

Agree with Monkeyerotica about Brunch. Aside from the bloody mary aspect anyway. Deep dish/pan is the pizza of choice for this Chicagoan.

[shaogo]

We love brunch when we have it at home. Sadly, (it might just be dumb luck) brunches had at restaurants four stars (and none) have been 80% poor.

Brunch's redeeming factor for us: Booze!

[Alan N]

See you at your place, 10:30? Probably should drag monkeyrotica along too.

[almond3xtract]

After reading Tony B's brunch expose in Kitchen Confidential, I am fine with never going to a brunch again.

[RetiredChef]

LMAO - Great post

[Reignking]

Lobster. Nothing special about it.

[southernitalian]

Other than the fact that it looks like a cockroach?

[southernitalian]

Pesto = Irish Spring soap

[EWSflash]

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[susancinsf]

now, I wasn't going to add my two cents, because I figured that with some many foods there is so much room for error and for the possibility that the eater didn't get a good version (I used to hate feta cheese also, just to give one example, until I tasted a very high quality, well made version)...

until I read this. Pesto YES! and compared to a soap I can't stand to boot! Thank you.

[Full tummy]

OMG Are you trying to ruin it for all us pesto lovers? In a weird way I see what you're saying, but it's also so wrong, so wrong.

[tatamagouche]

Are you referring to cilantro pesto and that whole supertaster thing? Because if you mean classic basil pesto, I don't get it. What in the world is soaplike about it?

[susancinsf]

it is soaplike, or at least Irish Springlike....in the sense that it just tastes overpowering and totally one note to me (similar to the one note smell of Irish Spring)...though cilantro pesto, otoh, is something I would probably adore!

[alkapal]

susan, i understand what you mean. i used to adore basil, but some time a while back, my taste just changed. now too much basil is simply overwhelming -- and not in a good way -- sort of like the situation with too much rosemary. the volatile oils are very strong.

[RetiredChef]

I would suggest that if it’s overpowering you have used too much, pesto can be used as both a seasoning and a flavoring so it’s up to use it how you wish.

As far as it being one note, I’ve never noticed that, at least when I make it, you can taste, garlic, olive oil, the cheese (pecorino, parm, etc.) pine-nuts (or other nuts if I want a change) and then there is the different basils that I use so each pesto can have a very unique taste. Much like wine, I can make you 6 different basil pestos that have six different flavors to them so I don’t really understand that one-note comparison at all.

I actually find pesto to be a very versatile sauce that with the addition of other ingredients opens up whole new areas. It’s almost like pesto is another mother sauce for me and ironically Italian food is one of my least like cuisines.

[tatamagouche]

I agree (except that Italian is one of my favorite sauces)—to me it's one of the most harmonious, versatile sauces ever...

RC, yes, it is like a mother sauce! Good way to think of it.

[monkeyrotica]

Pesto: "Manly, yes. But I like it, too!"

[catspercapita]

You have to have the freshest ingredients, as with most food. I grow my own basil and parsley (I like to combine the two for a balanced flavor). Use the freshest (organic is possible) garlic, good quality virgin olive oil,lightly toasted pine nuts (done yourself), good quality parmesan or romano cheese. As with most Italian food, it's the quality and freshness of the ingredients prepared simply. That combination with a good wine and good olives is awesome!!

[daydream]

I just made my own pesto for the first time this week, and while it was tasty, it still is nothing special to me either! Why have pesto sauce when there are so many other interesting ways to dress your pasta, sandwich, bruschetta, etc?

[tatamagouche]

Hmm, well, because taste is subjective, and pesto is indeed special/interesting to some of us?

[Jay F]

Wow. I've never heard anyone dis pesto before. I divide my life into the times BP and AP.

What, exactly, did you put in it, daydream?

[EWSflash]

I'm wondering that, too. The first time I made pesto and tasted it I thought I heard angels singing and nearly cried it was so good.

That was before the Chinese pignole fiasco, in fact i"m not sure we were able to get pignole in the mid-'70s so I may not even have used it.

[buttertart]

They were available in the Bay Area but they were fiendishly expensive.

[NellyNel]

Oh - no I get it! I never order pesto out...

Bad pesto is just horrible - it tastes of nothing but oil and garlic.
Good pesto is amazing!
AMAZING...but I struggle to eat an entire bowl of it, the taste becomes repetitive. I prefer starter portions, or even just some good pesto spread on a bit of bread...

[pikawicca]

Most pesto has WAY too much garlic. Mine just has a garlic grace note.

[westaust]

Any deconstructed meal

If I want a Niceoise salad, I want the real deal, i don't want a half empty plate with a piece of tuna, 2 haricots, half an hard boiled egg and a swirl of vinaigrette on top (with no lettuce in sight) like some trendy restaurants love to do

[monkeyrotica]

B-b-but that's a playful homage to the classic nicoise!

I bet you'd just hate their deconstructed bread, where what you get is a small cup of warm water, a cake of yeast, some flour, and salt.

[thew]

i make a "deconstructed pesto" on pasta sometimes. very tasty

[soniabegonia]

braised short ribs - I don't get why everyone goes gaga over it. I'd venture to say that any similar cut of meat braised in any liquid with some kind of seasoning tastes damn good - beef, pork, chicken, any part of the animal that can withstand long cooking

also, lobster bisque

[blair_houghton]

Gonna disagree here. That piece of meat brings a ton of flavor and has to be cooked that way to be tender; and done right it's nearly spoonable. Have you tried the one at Roaring Fork? I had it last weekend. I want to do it again this weekend, but that'd be too much.

[soniabegonia]

Oh, I agree it's good. yeah, it's damn good, but I don't understand people going on and on about how tender the meat is, it melts in your mouth, etc etc... of course it's tender, it's been braised for 3 hours! And anyway, some restaurants overdo it with the braising, IMO. I still want something to chew on and don't want it completely falling apart.

[monkeyrotica]

This is my problem with ribs that are "fall apart tender." I prefer mine with a little bite to them, not a spongy mass of disintegrating flesh. I'll save that for when I turn into a zombie, thank you very much.

[EWSflash]

Amen to that, fellow chowhound.

If I pick up a piece of rib and the bone comes clean off the meat it makes me SO angry that somebody boiled the suckers to kingdom come. And I do steam my ribs over a big fat wad of herbs from the garden (thyme/marjoram/savory/oregano) but so help me God I don't overdo it and water never touches those ribs. Except as steam. Only until they start to get tender and yummily herb-infused. Then I finish them on the grill.

[FrankD]

The OP was talking about short ribs, not spare ribs (or beef ribs). I've never seen anyone eat short ribs by hand. Agree with you on spare ribs, but agree with the OP on short ribs - they need a lot of braising to break down the connective tissue, but that collagen makes the sauce thick and unctuous.

[EWSflash]

Oops- thanks for the correction. I was reading from the bottom up, and clearly decided to shoot my mouth off before I read the first ribs post.

You're right about the short ribs needing something besides your hands. I've overcooked those, too and been very sorry I did.

[dcdavis]

I made Short Ribs last night for the first time (actually I started on Sunday). I and my guests went totally GaGa. Damn, I'm good!

[nomadchowwoman]

I LOVE lobster; I have NEVER had a good lobster bisque. The last time I had it was at a very grand restaurant. My friend insisted I order it, insisted; I ordered a cup. It arrived, looking like a very thin caramel sauce--no lobster in sight, as is always the case. But the worst was--it tasted like caramel. Really.

Once I mentioned to a dining companion that lobster bisque never has lobster in it. "Of course," he said, "lobster bisque is not supposed to have lobster meat in it. It's meant to be the essence of lobster. If you want lobster meat," he sniffed, "order chowder."
Indeed.

[LobsterQueen]

Your friend has it almost right. Lobster bisque is pureed. So there's meat in it, but not chunks. But it should taste like lobster, not caramel. Lobster soup or stock is made with the shells only, no meat. And lobster stew or chowder, should have big chunks of meat.

[nomadchowwoman]

Oh, he was usually right about such things--and eager to rid me of my wrongheadedness.

After this thread, I looked up a recipe for bisque in Jasper White's Lobster at Home. While it looked like it might be very good, I probably won't make it myself as I'd much rather have the lobster meat (in chunks or whole) in so many other preparations. I love lobster chowders.

However, I'd try bisque in a restaurant again, I guess, if someone gave me a good tip. Chances are I've just never had a good one, not that they don't exist. Funny thing is, I've almost never seen it on a menu in Maine, where we vacation every couple of years, and I've always wondered about that.

[alkapal]

for lobster bisque, you gotta talk to our fellow chowhound, hae young, who must be the lobster bisque champ by now.

[nomadchowwoman]

I have. The process sounds so angst-ridden! Or angst-creating.

[alkapal]

seriously! LOLOL!

[dcdavis]

I made it last night for the first time (actually I started on Sunday). I and my guests went totally GaGa. Damn, I'm good!

[dmd_kc]

American bacon. Shut the &%$*#@! up about bacon all the time.

Soooo tired of its elevation to the pinnacle of man's ability to create foodstuffs. I liked it a lot when I was a kid, and I can still eat a piece or two, sliced thin and fried shatteringly crisp, served alongside a couple of eggs and toast.

But this chewy, over-cured, over-salted, over-peppered, over-billed "artisan" crap showing up tough, stringy and just plain unappetizing on a salmon sandwich that costs $12? Or ordering a $8 bowl of New England clam chowder that tastes like smoked-pork cream sauce? Keep it, please.

Bacon makes everything better? You need to develop a palate that extends beyond salt and smoke, my friend.

[monkeyrotica]

People use bacon in clam chowder? WTF? You're supposed to use unsmoked, uncured salt pork or lard. Otherwise you end up with smokeporkcreamsauce.

[Reignking]

I had in RI last month -- loved it...

[miriamjo]

Please, my Mom must be rolling in her grave. Bacon in clam chowder?? IN RI?? Something must have put the earth off its axis. Only salt pork and only the kind that is mostly fat. Now I live in the midwest and they seem to think that all you have to do is drag a clam through some cream base and voila! you have clam chowder! YUCK

[Passadumkeg]

+1 for Maine too.

[tatamagouche]

+2 for Boston.

[gordeaux]

mmmmmmmmmmmm....
smokeporkcreamsauce.

[Will Owen]

I had a long correspondence about this - OK, argument, then - via snail mail (this was ca. '79, you see) with the food writer John Thorne, who had said in his Simple Cooking newsletter that bacon was all wrong for beans. I don't remember if the subject of chowder came up, but I'll imagine it did because I love it there too. What we agreed on was that to the Yankee taste bacon is all wrong because it makes the dish taste smoky, while to the Southern taste bacon is essential because... it makes the dish taste smoky! I do love salt pork, and will happily suck up chowder or pea soup or baked beans made with it, but I think smoky is just a bit better.

[schmoopy]

Gordeaux, you crack me up!

[DC in DC]

Braveaux, Gordeaux.

[EWSflash]

My mother's clam chowder had bacon in it, but not a lot, and it was the perfect accent for the clams and corn and everything. Little pieces, fried and drained. No smokeporkcreamsauce, it was CLAM chowder. And damn good.

She didn't use the "artisanal" bacon because in the '60s there wasn't any.

[FrankD]

My wife still makes it that way - a nice creamy chowder with lots of clams, and as a finishing garnish, she crumbles a piece of crispy bacon over each bowl. And, because she doesn't add any salt during cooking, the finished product doesn't come out over-salted.

[alkapal]

"""""Bacon makes everything better? You need to develop a palate that extends beyond salt and smoke, my friend.""""

lynnlato, did you see this? did you SEE THIS HERESY??

[Olallieberry]

For me it's pad thai. I always thought of it as the standard choice for people who weren't familiar with Thai food, but then realized even my most adventurous friends in dining often order it and love it. So I am starting to think it's just me.

I'll second the macaroni and cheese nomination and also throw in prosciutto and melon (together).

[thew]

it's ubiquitous in thailand, and not just for the falangs.

[alkapal]

thew, do you mean the "ferengs" http://www.scopa.ca/travelogue/vegas/ferengi.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferengi ? tee hee.

[thew]

"never pay for bolognese when you're eating pad thai"

127th rule of acquisition

[alkapal]

good one!

here are a few more: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Rules...

[southernitalian]

Prosciutto and melon is not right!

[NellyNel]

Good one!

I love proscuiutto -I love melon....but I never got the combo thing - ever!

[therealdoctorlew]

I nominate creamed spinach. I am still trying to decide if it is a waste of cream or a waste of spinach.

[Veggo]

Creamed spinach? With salt and loads of Tabasco, it and lobster bisque (trashed elsewhere above), would be parts of my last meal.

[invinotheresverde]

Creamed spinach is a gift from God.

[Alan N]

invinotheresverde, that is hilarious. You are right.

[steakman55]

Crab legs and lobster. Yes, I am serious. Good fresh Gulf shrimp beat them both any day.

[mymomisthebestcook]

The brownie sundae

[c oliver]

Ever had Dungeness crab that came out of the water that morning? Or New England lobster, not the pallid-Florida imitator? And I love Gulf shrimp.

[MattInNJ]

Well thats just like, your opinion man.

/thedude.

[TongoRad]

Bwah! Now you've got me in the mood for a White Russian (which may indeed be an overrated beverage- I couldn't say since I probably haven't had one since 1982- but it does sound good at this moment, for whatever reason.)

Lobster claws rule, btw!!! (I could do without the tails, myself)

[roro1831]

I have to agree with you on lobster, I just don't get it. I much prefer crawfish or any seafood to lobster.

[sisterfunkhaus]

I have to agree. Gulf shrimp makes everything in the world right.

[Passadumkeg]

Opinion, as stated above. You obviously have never had fresh caught, sweet little Maine shrimp! Soo sweet, fresh caught lobster and crab too. Gulf shrimp, eah. Meaty but not sweet meat.

[alkapal]

gulf shrimp are wonderful! maybe you didn't get the right ones.

[c oliver]

The Safeway here had beautiful Texas Gulf shrimp on special today. But until my allergy tests come back, none for me. Ah, the pain of it. I'm craving some of Veggo's world famous shrimp, corn and poblano soup.

[alkapal]

oh! i hope you are not allergic. that would be very sad!

[c oliver]

Fingers crossed xxxxx

[Passadumkeg]

I just saw this. Gulf shrimp: NOLA, Mobile and Corpus. The question is, have you ever had fresh north Atlantic very small, but oh so sweet shrimp? No comparison.

[buttertart]

You said a mouthful, mister. Absolutely. Either side of the Atlantic.

[alkapal]

gulf shrimp come in all sizes. my mom always liked the medium for her shrimp creole, saying they were sweeter -- and it is true. and yes, i've had shrimp from maine and the cold north atlantic, too. and yes, they are wonderful.

[Passadumkeg]

BUT, AHHH tiny North Atlantic shrimp, soooo, sweet, makes gulf shrimp taste like Wonder Bread.

[Evilbanana11]

I disagree with every overrated dish in this thread except Westaust's deconstructed stuff.

[Fuser]

My nomination is cedar planked salmon. I spent the better part of a summer searching for a cedar plank. Prepared it by soaking it and had my salmon with fresh dill rubbed with olive oil, grilled it and it tasted like -- salmon that had been kept in a cedar chest, like salmon combined with summer lake house. I'm not sure what I was expecting. I love wood-smoked food in general, but cedar reminds me of moth repellents, which it's used for.
As for chicken marbella, I never used the brown sugar called for in the chicken marbella recipe b/c I tend to avoid sugar except when it's necessary (like in baking), and it's not so bad.

[monkeyrotica]

Chocolate anything. I like a nice Hershey's Kiss once in a while, or a nice chocolate cake. But some people just seem to soil themselves in ecstasy at the though of chocolate. These same people tend to talk about their love of chocolate in sexual terms. I respectfully submit that they've been doing it wrong, if they think chocolate is better than sex.

[EWSflash]

Agreed.

[nomadchowwoman]

I'm with you, but this is obviously a taste/taste buds thing. Like you, I know people who just go crazy for chocolate, but I can never take more than a bite of any chocolate dessert.

[Veggo]

I think they go together pretty well.

[c oliver]

I'm not a chocolate fan but that combo has always been a winner for me.

[gordeaux]

If a Hershey's Kiss represents your idea of chocolate, it's quite understandable that you'd think it's overrated. It's still definitely not better than sex if you're doing it correctly like you said tho. If you were to say Hershey's Chocolate is overrrated, I think you'd get 100% agreement. It's brown wax with a bit of sweetness. If you've ever had some of the European stuff, wow. Smooth as sillk.

[monkeyrotica]

I was just using the Hershey's as a point of reference. I've had some excellent Belgian chocolates, the kind with the obscene amounts of butter fat. Rich. Tasty. Still doesn't do it for me. But then again, I have a meat-tooth not a sweet-tooth.

[c oliver]

Meat tooth...sweet tooth. I love that and am stealing it. I think 99.9% (this is an approximation, people) of ANYTHING sweet is overrated.

[thew]

not better than - better with

[Avalondaughter]

You mean it's not?

[jpmcd]

crabcakes. it is very rare that i meet a crabcake that is any good.

now, a good one is great, but the ones everyone else orders and devours off of hors d'oeuvres trays are bleh.

[dmd_kc]

Crabcakes that are mostly bread crumbs, mustard and red bell pepper -- what on Earth is red bell pepper doing paired with something as delicate as crab?

Even worse is when they cheap out further with green bell pepper. Gack. Just throw the whole thing in the trash, because it's ruined.

Though just last night at a wedding they had some rather fishy ones made with all special and claw meat. Though they had a pretty high starch ratio, it balanced the heavier flavor of the claw and turned out rather nicely. Decent compromise, I thought.

[Veggo]

I think "compromise" will be an operative word, for the next century or so.

[monkeyrotica]

Yeah, crabcakes when done poorly are an abomination. The best crab cake I ever had was about a half pound of lump crabmeat, no filler AT ALL, held together with a little mayo binder and dusted with Old Bay.

[Jacey]

Being from the DC area we have a lot of good crab cakes around here. On the flipside, we also have a lot of menus that just throw them on because it's the region. When they are good, they are amazing, when they are pretty bad with lots of filler, they're worthless to get. I think price on this dish often does determine quality.

[mountaincachers]

I grew up in Maryland, so to me crabcakes are comfort food (as are steamed crabs with Old Bay). Having said that, I rarely order them off menus because they are usually so bad and disappointing. It does amaze me how often people swear a restaurant has "great crab cakes", and they are a horrible imitation of the real thing. I tend to just make these at home.

[al b. darned]

I agree with creamed spinach....Yuck!!!

I will add cilantro to the list. Can't stand the stuff!

Finally, I nominate chicken-fried steak. I know I'll get flamed for this, but before you tell me, "But you haven't had 'good' cfs," yes I have, several times (allegedly) when I lived "down south", and I still don't get it.

[sisterfunkhaus]

A really tender CFS with mashed potatoes and green beans would be my last meal no doubt. I love gourmet food, but there is nothing better than a god CFS. So comforting.

[Soop]

Beef borgenwhatever
Duck a'l'orange
stew that's too thick
anything that tries too hard
takeaway pizza when I remember real pizza
goulash
tagliatelli and carbonara
Coc au vin

I hate the duck because I hate sweet and savoury, but all of these dishes are usually go-tos for people who don't seem to really like food.

I've seen many of them done well and properly on TV (and it's usually completely different). Chicken Chasseur avoids the list because I've had a great example.

Man, I'm going to make a separate topic.

[c oliver]

Now that I make Hazan's tagliatelli with carbonara, I also won't order it.. But don't you think that's probably true of a lot of dishes?

[Soop]

Yeah, just created a hefty topic about food done wrong :)

You got a link for your recipe? I'd like to compare it to the rick stien one

[c oliver]

Here ya go with the carbonara (I use bacon cause I don't have an affordable source for pancetta and I don't think it suffers):

http://fooddownunder.com/cgi-bin/recipe.cgi?r=157958

Here's the taglitelle - scroll down but don't miss the Bolognese (I last made a quintuple recipe of it!):

http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/20...

[Soop]

Ah! That's fantastic! I feel like I have such an affinity with that chef, I'm definitely going to seek her out! Just small things, like insisting on chuck steak rather than mincemeat, cooking the ragu for 4 hours, no water added to the pasta, making the pasta on the work surface... All of these things I enjoy doing (I feel like I'm doing it "properly" or at least to my taste).

I've never understood why water need be added to fresh pasta, and although I've picked up some great tips already, I tend to crack the eggs right into a pile of flour, and kind of beat them in with my fingers quite quickly. I don't think it suffers from not being pre-beaten. But I didn't know about divinding into 6.

What I tended to do is pass the whole thing through, and when it becomes so long as to be unmanageable, I divide it into half, or 3 depending. I like that because it straightens the ends.

But thanks loads for the second link! *edit* Good lord, I think I have a new favorite chef O__O

[mimolette]

I am the opposite but I really like food. I like some meats with fruits because it cuts the overwhelming meatyness or grease that makes me nauseous. I can't quite describe it accurately, but there is certain something in meat that sometimes is just too much for me without some distraction. It has a certain heavyness, it's that something in chicken thigh that is not in chicken breast that makes it so much more flavorful but at the same time needs something herbal or acid to balance. I do love meat and rarely have a meal without it. I eat strong beefy cuts such as hanger and skirt steak all the time so I would not consider myself as a vegetarian in closet at all. I do agree that too much sweetness in a savory dish is bad, it's more the fruity fragrance and acid I am after, not cloying syrupy sauce.

[alkapal]

you ever make cuban pork with sour orange?
http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/bobby-flay/mojo-marinated-pork-recipe/index.html
http://ediblearia.com/2009/10/30/lech...

so savory, but not heavy.

[mimolette]

thank you, I will try it!

[alkapal]

good pork prices lately, too. :-)

[Janet from Richmond]

I thought of another overrated dish (another thread prompted me). Corn on the cob. It's only purpose in life is to give butter another outlet and for my butter cravings I prefer some good bread.

[linguafood]

Ha! Speak for yourself. Corn on the cob with butter and salt is one of the best things in the world. Can't believe the season's almost over......

[gordeaux]

Wow. I've been eating cotc a LOT lately since it's been incredible. NO butter, NO salt, NO pepper. Just corn, and fire.
Awesome
sugar sweet these days.

[Veggo]

Olathe sweet corn, plus the previously trashed creamed spinach, caviar, and lobster bisque, and maybe a couple Hudson Valley duck livers, would round out my perfect last meal.

[c oliver]

Lordy, that sounds good, doesn't it? Ooh wee.

[Miss Needle]

That's how I eat my corn as well. Think it's one of the best things out there.

Seriously, I think the title of this thread should be changed to Dishes that I Don't like that Everybody seems to love.

[linguafood]

Oh yeah! Never had any of those threads before '-)

[Miss Needle]

Of course. I guess the OP used this wording to elicit more responses -- or to not be repetitive. : )

[c oliver]

I think there already is one :)

[Full tummy]

Sorry to say, but, I disagree. Excellent corn on the cob can be enjoyed with no butter or salt, though butter and salt are, admittedly, hard to resist.

[Beckyleach]

Oh, you haven't tasted Silver Queen corn, picked at the peak of perfection and rushed to the pot, and then piled on the table.

It's so damned good (sweet, but with a true "corn" flavor, as well) that we don't even NEED butter.

[Janet from Richmond]

Yes I have. I don't have a sweet tooth and find corn either flavorless (out of season) or cloying (in season).

What's worse is I love black beans and in recent years it's been the trend to muck up black beans with corn (in salsas, salads, and southwestern/Mexican dishes in general).

[anakalia]

-Pho.
-Mousse.
-Cheesecake.
-Any absurdly large dessert concoction that people - especially girls - seem to go crazy for (brownie pizza, or "pizzookie" or whatever they call it).
-Any ice-cream that needs "mix-ins" to make it taste good

Are these things bad? No, but I just don't get why people groan in ecstasy over them.

Also:

- Any and all Mexican restaurant in Phoenix, Az. People go and and on about them and they always end up serving some disappointing deep-fried beans-and-iceberg-lettuce-and-chedder-cheese-glob.

[JerryMe]

Not true about the Hispanic restaurants in Phoenix. Absolutely not true.

[JerryMe]

Anakalia - Maybe you don't like Phoenix or maybe you don't like Mexican food, but really, All Hispanic food is not the gloppy, icky weird stuff that you've described. Maybe you're ordering wrong??

[sisterfunkhaus]

Mmmmmm. Have you ever had had it in Texas from a road side stand roasted with butter, sour cream and queso blanco topped with hot sauce? If you haven't you must try it before you die.

[Dio Seijuro]

Overrated dishes for me are:
-duck confit. every time I try this I feel like to just go get Cantonese roast duck instead
-Philly cheese steak, most ones I've had were disappointing
-boiled seafood platter. signature dish at fish shack to mid-scale seafood restaurants/chains.

Lastly, since I live in Atlanta. Almost all the signature Southern cuisine dishes (Fried chicken, shrimp & grits, BBQ. etc.) when elevated to gourmet dish at upscale restaurants, and calling it (lots of places do this) the best xxx in the city.

[observor]

I don't know if it's overrated, but I haven't had a great cheesesteak either...probably because most places are cheapos! Still looking for one.

[mimolette]

I am a huge duck fan and I agree with you - I just don't get duck confit.

[Steve]

Meat cooked in its own fat is pretty darn good stuff. In all probability, you haven't had a duck confit properly prepared. I see it on menus a lot in the US, but I have not had a proper one outside France.

[DallasDude]

say duck fat fries.

[TexSquared]

Sushi, enough said
Pad thai
thin crust pizza with stupid toppings (CPK and its clones)
Artichoke-spinach dip
Cheesy garlic bread
Starbucks-type coffee (especially iced)
Tim Horton's (the Toronto board knows what I think of them)
"molecular gastronomy" (sorry, I don't wish to pay for foam in my pint of beer, why would I want to pay for it on my plate too)
Asian anything thrown into the menu of non-Asian chains
Any food you can buy frozen in a bulk pack at Sam's Club (why would I go to a restaurant and pay a premium for that crap?)
Cold Stone/Marble Slab Creamery

[linguafood]

Sushi overrated? Pad thai? Really depends where you get that stuff, tex.

[Soop]

I haven't had good sushi in a very long time. There's a vast ocean of difference, and once you've eaten good sushi, you can't go back.

[linguafood]

Well, for one thing, I wouldn't say 'sushi' is one dish. Also, the discussion seems to have somehow moved away from 'overrated dishes'. But maybe it's just me.

[FrankD]

Quite agree with you that it depends on where you get it. Heard a lot of good reviews for a place on Spadina, went there for their "all you can eat" - it was awful. On the other hand, I frequent two places - one is Scarborough, one in Richmond Hill - that have great sushi/sashimi at quite reasonable prices. Follow your palate, not the hype!

[Soop]

Well, I'm wary of paying a lot for sushi now in case it doesn't live up to my expectations. And I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly what the difference is. And while there are many types of sushi, I never order maki rolls or sashimi, I always order at least two tuna nigiri and usually some other nigiri that took my fancy.

I ordered the special platter once at my (now gone) favorite sushi place, and found that I really enjoyed the eel and squid, which I didn't think I would.
Having had them since, they were nowhere near close; even the tuna nigiri I've had doesn't quite fit.

do you not think that counts as over-rated? Maybe I've gone off on a tangent.
btw, this was the place http://www.itchybristol.co.uk/review....

[Reignking]

Creme brulee. Every restaurant seems to have it now -- am I supposed to be impressed by the candied sugar on top? And for $5-6? Please.

And while in Spain, crema catalan? It's the same thing!

[monkeyrotica]

Ha! It's been a long time since I've seen a wedding gift list that didn't have a creme brulee torch on it. I have yet to meet anyone who's ever used theirs more than once.

Particularly ridiculous since you can accomplish the same thing with the broiler in your oven.

[thew]

i've used mine more than one - i find it is much easier to get right with it, than with the broiler

[DallasDude]

Right, buy a torch at a Sur la Table or one of the many supply purveyors and you will spend at least 30 bucks. The torch will be small and useless. However, go to a hardware store and buy the bernzomatic canister for less than 5. It will literally last forever and can be used for so much more (like the wonderful crust on a spiral ham).

[linguafood]

Ooooh. I gotta get one of those. I'm partial to salmon nigiri that's flamed ever so slightly. My brûlée torch is useless.

[monkeyrotica]

It also does a number on those nasty weeds growing between the sidewalk cracks.

[jeanmarieok]

I have one from the hardware store, works like a dream......

[alkapal]

or the bernzOmatic can also be used for cleaning the ice from your steps in the winter! ;-).

[sebetti]

My torch gets more use as the ultimate cigar lighter for my husband than as a kitchen utensil for me.

[nomadchowwoman]

i'm laughing because I own three, one [she says sheepishly] I bought myself, one Mom gave me as a gift because she figured I always appreciate a new kitchen gadget, another given to me by a friend thinking the same way. The danged thing (the only one ever opened) never worked on creme brulee.

[Full tummy]

Oh, I've used mine many a time, surprise, surprise. The oven takes so long to get hot enough, and if I'm just making the brulée for two (which is typical), then using the oven is a waste of electricity, in my mind. I can see using the oven if I had a whole pan of crème brulée to broil. So, ya, I use it.

[DallasDude]

But, you do use your oven to bake the little devils, right?

[monkeyrotica]

The one time I did make the stuff, I just baked it, then switched on the broiler. But yeah, electric ovens aren't really designed for brulee. Go gas or GTFO.

[Full tummy]

Yes, but who wants to eat a freshly baked crème brulée. They're supposed to be chilled prior to serving, and then the brulée done at the last moment. This results in a coolish interior.

[c oliver]

Exactly. I'd never made it until a few years ago. Used a CI recipe. Perfect just the way you describe.

[Normandie]

With a few exceptions, pizza.

[lagatta]

Pizza is a wonderful food, but unfortunately most versions I've had outside Italy are either a greasy mess or pieces of cardboard.

[Normandie]

Yes, I think that's really my point, lagatta, and I probably didn't say it clearly enough, so TY. I have this feeling that many of us who care enough to make it from scratch at home make it pretty well, actually, and probably lots of us could name that special special restaurant/pizza place that does it right, with careful prep, fresh and balanced ingredients, respect for the art and tradition of pizza.

I feel that you understood what my frustration is, which I guess is really about pizza purveyors here, rather than the food itself. Sometimes it seems like it's only considered a device for the delivery of saturated fat and sodium, as popular outlets look for more places in which to stuff the generic cheese. But a good, crisp crust (or even a good, yeasty deep-dish pie, if that's one's preference); a restrained hand with a true sauce, fresh basil and "real" cheese, and then the highest quality of whatever else one chooses to have on it--done right it's really quite healthful and satisfying to the tummy *and* the senses. You are right.

[alkapal]

foie gras is overrated.
caviar is overrated.

[limster]

Any specific type of foie gras you're referring to?

[alkapal]

um, fatted goose liver?

[limster]

Most of the versions in the US tend to be fattened duck liver. Have you tried the Alsatian goose ones?

[alkapal]

i've had proper foie gras here and in hungary.
plus, i'm not crazy about goose, either.

[limster]

The Alsatian goose foie seem to have more flavour to me (more smoky among other things), and taste very different from the ones in the US. I like goose, but vastly prefer the smaller birds like the ones I get from Teochew restaurants in Singapore (the few times I've had it in the US weren't particularly great).

BTW, not saying that duck foie is not a proper rendition; it's not considered a cop-out, just different.

[alkapal]

perhaps i'm missing something. but... i've been there, done that.

sometimes i think people "over-rate" items just because they think they *must* like them in order to be "chowhounds" or "foodies" or "connoisseurs."

[limster]

>>sometimes i think people "over-rate" items just because they think they *must* like them in order to be "chowhounds" or "foodies" or "connoisseurs."

There's no "preference requirement" although one does need to decide for oneself.

But even particular categories of ingredients can come with a significant amount of diversity (sources, preparation) that makes it very hard to generalise.

[monkeyrotica]

Agreed. Also, never, ever buy a yacht. Totally overrated.

As for taking on an entire brothel, well, after the first five times, what's the point? And the same goes for NY strip steak. Yawn.

[alkapal]

"after the first five times, what's the point"?
indeed! or is it, *where's* the point? har dee har har, to quote an esteemed fellow chowhound upthread. ;-).

monekyerotica, you must be hankering for "lifestyles of the rich and famous."

[Normandie]

I could agree with everything you said--well, except about the brothel; I wouldn't know about that...and the NY strip. I'd run over nuns, Eagle scouts and candystripers if they stood between me and a well aged, nicely seared strip steak.

[EWSflash]

I'll give ya the fois gras, but I have to admit i'm loving the caviar.

[trvler]

Garlic mashed potatoes with fish. It is bad enough that they are served with everything in many restaurants but fish????

[zendrive]

I think that Tuna Tartare has had its run as a tasty dish. I still love it, but I have had enough of it now where I think it may have risen to "overrated" status.

The same thing can be said for most "seared tuna" dishes. They are pedestrian at this point.

I find beef tartare on the menu at a lot of high end restaurants, but I wish it would trancend high end and find its way into some of the innovative sports bars that dot the Las Vegas Valley. (I am aware of the liability involved, but there should be enough good beef to go around.)

I dont think it gets any more sophisticated, yet primal, than steak tartare. =)

[c oliver]

Oh, wow, don't get Veggo started on steak tartare. He's been binging on it lately ala Alan Barnes' recipe.

[Soop]

Can I get a link?

[c oliver]

Yoo hoo, Veg, where are you??? I know you have it memorized :)

[gordeaux]

I just thought of one:
Filet Mignon.

[schmoopy]

I agree with you gordeaux. Certainly the filet mignon is tender but there's just not that much flavor. If I'm going to have a steak it's a ribeye for me. Tender and flavorful.

[DallasDude]

Well add a creamy bernaise, along with large tender asparagus and buttery jumbo lump crab on toast points... the filet is quite the masterpiece.

http://la.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea...

[schmoopy]

Well, I do like all those things but if you have to put sauce and other stuff on your steak then it kind of defeats the point of having a steak (in my opinion). You miss out on the great flavor of the beef alone, which is why I love my ribeyes. Every once in a while I'll order a filet just for a little something different and to re-check my opinion about filets and I find that I still feel that way. They're as tender as can be but just not a lot of flavor.

I do have to say though, I have wonderful childhood memories of having filet mignon on Saturday nights at home with my family. This was in the late 60s and 70s and my mom made a mean filet. She had the process down to a science. Beautifully seasoned and broiled in the broiler til medium rare. The funny part is when I tried to duplicate this method one evening with my grandmother who used to watch us and cook dinner for us during the week because both my parents worked. I was either 8 or 9. My grandmother would often throw one of those large "round" steaks in the oven for us and I never liked it. It was always tough and didn't taste all that great. Well, I figured I'd just show her the "right" way to prepare a steak. I seasoned that thing, cut little slits on the fat surrounding it, tenderized it with a fork, and then put it in the broiler. Imagine my chagrin when it just didn't taste the same. I couldn't figure out what I had done wrong! :-) My mom explained to me later that it had to be a certain cut of beef, etc. It was a good lesson.

[DallasDude]

Eh, certain steaks lend themselves to sauces, and certainly the filet is one of those. But a filet can be quite flavorful if cooked in a sautee or a flat top. Salt, pepper, a bit of garlic. Sear it in a olive oil/ butter combo till it has a nice thick crust, flip and finish in the oven... delicious!

But I do like the butter sauces on occasion for steaks. But normally just the beef solo. perhaps with a side of creamed spinach. OK now I am hungry.

[EWSflash]

Maybe, DD, but take away the filet and you still have a hell of a good dish- it almost sounds like the filet gets in the way.

I'll take a nice rib eye, medium rare, cooked over charcoal, please. No sauce, just salt and pepper.

[Soop]

+1
I'll go for ribeye or sirloin

[monkeyrotica]

The flavor difference between a filet mignon and a hangar steak (or even a skirt steak) is night and day. Difficult to believe that they come from the same animal.

[Soop]

it's true though that a bavette, while tasty, can be a little tough. As far as an actual steak goes, I think ribeye/sirloin is a good medium.
However, for certain dishes (e.g. carne asada, pasties) the tougher joints really come into their own.

I did have a pasty made with rump steak once though, and it was goooood :P

[dmd_kc]

I don't know anyone who actually likes the flavor of beef who also prefers filet mignon.

It's steak for non-meat-eaters.

[DallasDude]

OMG thats funny! You know few people. Try a carpetbaggers steak.

[Samuelinthekitchen]

Pasta Alfredo. Monster mix of cheese + pasta = my appetite gone.

[linguafood]

It's pretty awesome if you don't go nuts with the amount of butter, just melt a bit into the fresh boiled pasta, and grate some parmesan or pecorino over it, add freshly ground pepper.... damn good.

[CHEFINTHECLOSET]

Any kind of granola, yuck!!

[Soop]

Granola is yummy :)

[EWSflash]

Poor Soop, you are misguided. ChefintheCloset is correct ;-)

It really is fun, though, to watch people try to eat the stuff dry out of a bowl with a spoon. They look so awkward and it sounds ridiculous. Clank clank crunch crunch repeat ad infinitum

[mimolette]

Anything with too much heavy cream just sits in my chest and makes me nauseous, same thing goes for overapplying butter and pork fat, mayo and that fishy smelling canola oil. Olive oil can get away with it a little more because some olive oils are most gentle and fruity like water or juice. When my mouth is completely coated with oil I feel like I am sufficating, need seltzer or lemon to degrease!

[Jacey]

Steak.

I don't get why people lust over a juicy steak. IMO, they are just so-so. I live in the land of grand steakhouses, and I can easily pass over the filet for the crab cakes or fish.

[thew]

filet, yeah.. its mushy and lacking in flavor

[Soop]

I don't understand how anyone cannot like steak. In my eyes the only possibility is eating the wrong steak. Maybe you should get a nice aged sirloin from your butcher and cook it yourself? I've certainly had mixed results from eating out.
Another thing I don't get is why they're always served with chips. That's hardly ever good. Makes me sad :(

[monkeyrotica]

The difference between a dark, properly dry aged steak and the bright red shrinkwrapped stuff you find in the grocery store is the difference between sex with an actual human being and watching two sock puppets with googly eyes do it on a black and white tv with the sound turned off. Also, the horizontal control is broken.

[Soop]

lmfao :D

[observor]

I felt similarly, and still do, however, I must say that a professionally prepared, high quality steak can be very nice...but it is definitely in the overrated section, especially with its cost.

[Full tummy]

I'll take the steak and crab cakes and pass the fish to you. To each his own, I suppose.

[Humbucker]

I've outgrown steak. To me it's really boring and monotonous unless its something like kobe beef that has fat up the wazoo. I'd rather have a burger than steak 99% of the time.

[mimolette]

I love a juicy steak, I really really do, usually not a fillet though, they are too bland. But most steaks are just too big, after a while I lose my interest and it just tastes boring. On the other hand there is never quite enough fish or crab cakes somehow!

[Steve]

Welcome to Steve’s Completely FANTASTIC, OVER-THE-TOP, INCREDIBLE, and OVER-RATED restaurant.

Where every dish is so totally, amazingly, over-rated.
Why eat here? Because EVERYONE ELSE LOVES IT!

APPETIZERS
Sushi
Gourmet mac and cheese with well-aged feta
Domestic Caviar
Bloomin’ Onion, housemade chipotle remoulade
Sliders of any kind
Mozzarella coated in panko

SOUPS
Shark’s Fin Soup
Lobster Bisque
Clam Chowder with bacon strips

SALADS
Deconstructed Nicoise
Asian-influenced menu item, served on a bed of lettuce

MAIN COURSE
Thanksgiving Dinner* with All the Trimmings
Chicken Marbella, creamed spinach
Chicken Scarpariello
Turkey Legs, a la State Fair
“BBQ” Braised short ribs, housemade chipotle barbecue sauce
Cedar planked salmon, garlic mashed potatoes

*You truss and cook the turkey yourself. Please allow 4 hours.

SMALL PLATES
All main courses may be ordered as tapas (half portions) for no extra charge.

CHEESE COURSE
Buratta, served on its own leaves

DESSERTS
Ile Flottant
Lava Cake
Brownie Pizza
Lava Brownie Pizza Flottant (make this into a ‘towering’ dessert: add ice cream and Hershey’s Kisses for only $2)

And one last thing…..
don’t forget to join us for our signature “WHITE RUSSIAN BRUNCH.”

[DallasDude]

Pretty much covers everything. What will have left to dine on? I think 'cheeseburger' (full sized) was left off the list. Seems we are also free to gorge on anything 'alla puttanesca'.

[TexSquared]

Sounds like big-box chain restaurant from hell!! The list could be used as an automatic "stay away" warning if you see any of the items on a menu when you're in a strange city and looking for a place to eat!

[stricken]

Steve rocks!

[lainekerr]

To me, sundried tomatoes are totally overrated and overdone these days. I find them overly chewy and sadly lacking in flavour. Why bother?

Also, balsamic vinegar. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a lovely aged balsamic on a nice fresh tomato salad, but it seems to be in everything these days...even when its flavour overwhelms the other ingredients.

Lastly, steak sauce (is it A1?) If a steak is so flavourless or overdone that it needs that disgusting goop, I'll just skip the steak.

[tatamagouche]

Sundried tomatoes lacking in flavor? That's odd. They're pretty tangy (& yummy), I find. Oil-packed or dry?

[sisterfunkhaus]

I think that many people use balsamic b/c it is safe for them. They know what it is, they know they see chefs (or pseudo chefs) on TV cooking with it, so it must be great. I think it will go out of fashion soon. Bobby Flay has been making some disparaging remarks about it lately (sorry, couldn't resist.)

My favorite store has a huge selection of all kinds of vinegars. When I go browsing, people always go to the balsamic, especially the aged syrupy stuff on the top shelf. They seem to have blinders on.

[Dio Seijuro]

Not so overrated, but I feel the entire category of "Classic American Diner" today gets more love than it deserves. I find 90% of those establishments and the type of signature dishes served at these places generally range from bad to barely adequate. Tastes are boring, prices are higher than should be, quality is nowhere near most ethnic cheap eats. Plus, most people should be able to make this stuff at home easily, and tastier.

Club sandwiches. Chicken noodles/dumplings. Pastry that's nowhere as good as gourmet deli/bakery's goods and only slightly cheaper. Omelet and Benedict galore which rarely impress. Often, mediocre coffee and milkshakes. Vegetables at these places are uniformly bad. It's like going to a non-foodie aunt's house, she might not be a bad cook, but it's not what you really want to eat. Nostalgia can do weird things to people's judgment!

[observor]

Whose rating is being described as "over"?

[alkapal]

observor, now you went and asked it, huh?!

[observor]

I was just interested...seems to me you like something or you don't, I don't really know how there can be some kind of group thought.

[alkapal]

groupthink is all over chowhound!

and within food criticism. and among self-appointed cognoscenti.

for example, go and try to defend -- even just a bit -- rachael ray or sandra lee or paula deen on these boards.

[pikawicca]

So if 100 people see a movie, and 95 of them say the movie is awful, that's group think? I don't think so. It means that 95% of movie goers think the movie stank. If you're among the 5% who loved the movie, you can expect to get heated disagreement from the viewers who disagree with you. Just because someone is in the majority, doesn't mean they're a victim of "group think."

[alkapal]

pikawicca, i think you read much more into my comment than i wrote.

as i said further up the thread:
sometimes i think people "over-rate" items just because they think they *must* like them in order to be "chowhounds" or "foodies" or "connoisseurs."

[observor]

Right, but if people say they like it just because most other people have, that is groupthink.

[observor]

What is the defense of them? Paula Deen, OK, she's a jovial gal, but the other two...I don't know. Aren't they all empire crafters? I'll take Alton Brown, Mario Batali, and Bobby Flay any day of the week (gender irrelevant)

[mountaincachers]

Italian cheeses. Not so much a problem with the cheese as with how it's used. Every mediocre restaurant, in an effort to make their food sound sophisticated, seems to finish with a sprinkle of parmesan...or asiago...etc. Oddly, it doesn't seem to matter what the ethnicity of the original dish is. Mozzarella in Mexican? Can't make bad food good with a dusting of poor quality cheese.

[steakman55]

Crab claws of any type

[c oliver]

Including Dungeness, fresh?

[DallasDude]

Including stone crabs fresh in season with a delish mustard sauce ala Joes?

[Parigi]

Basmati rice
Orange duck
Canard laqué (equal time)
Crème brûlée
Kona coffee
All the Bulli-esque foamy starters

[Parigi]

Some more:
Sea slug
Buddhist jump wall
Bird's nest soup
Kobe beef
Truffles. They are good but not worth the price, says petit bourgeoise I.

[limster]

You mean buddha jump over the wall? It's a classic, but it's a whole banquet, not a dish. (These days, most places will abbreviate that to a single dish.)

[Parigi]

More like Buddha doing stretches. :-)

[tatamagouche]

What is it?

[alkapal]

as far as i'm concerned, foam belongs at the seashore.

[Parigi]

or on the toothbrush.
All the chic eatery foam just manages to taste like intriguing toothpaste.

[thew]

i thought that way too, until i had some superb foams that added to a dish, instead of just sat there looking pretty, or foamy.

I've had good foams at AUgust in NOLA, at WD-50 and Degustation in NYC, all of which made sense with the dish, and clearly made the plate better.

[akq]

I just don't like that they look like spit...

[thew]

think of the ocean instead, then

[Alan N]

What don't you like about Kona?

[Parigi]

The taste, of lack of.

[observor]

I have no idea what Kona coffee is, but I was at a fine brunch and the waitress said the coffee was Kona and we press it right at your table so you get the freshest cup available...didn't taste like much, in my opinion.

[carswell]

Kona is arabica coffee grown in the Kona districts of the big island of Hawaii.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kona_coffee

As with other coffees, some beans are better than others. Also, factors like the freshness of the beans, the time between grinding and use, the brewing method and the alignment of the planets can affect the taste of the brew. So, before writing off Kona, you might want to give it another chance.

That said, I'm personally not a fan of most Kona, often finding it mild/delicate to the point of blandness and always finding it overpriced. But a lot of people love it.

[observor]

I would say this was mild/delicate. This restaurant was a bit more style than quality, so they may have been using an inferior Kona, (or maybe not even Kona at al.)

EDIT: Just saw there are Kona blends...I'm sure this place used one of them.

[vorpal]

I had it while on the Big Island of Hawaii (where Kona is located) and loved it. I'm not usually a coffee drinker, not really finding much appeal to coffee, but figured that since I was on the Big Island, I should give it a try for the novelty factor. I'm quite glad that I did!

[Alan N]

It is a coffee I have enjoyed more than others with no cream or sugar. Glad to hear from vorpal (first impression made with the actual goods), made me think that perhaps many are getting "Kona blends", "Kona roasts",etc. Many of these "Konas" are less than half of actual Kona coffee. The brand is carefully regulated in Hawaii, the description of Kona must say "100 percent Kona" for it to be legit.

[alkapal]

i've never had 100% kona, to my knowledge. i wonder if trader joe's carries it? i'm only a visitor at costco, but i don't recall seeing it there. is it only at high-end places?

[Alan N]

I had it in Kawaii.
Regarding your question alkapal:
It was listed on the trader joe's brochure at some point, see below.

http://www.traderjoes.com/Attachments/coffee_brochure.pdf

You can order direct from the website below.

http://www.konacoffee.com/

After looking to see where to get the stuff I stumbled across this reference and quote.

Mark Twain stated it so eloquently, “Kona Coffee has a richer flavor than any other, be it grown where it may and call it by what name you please." ~ 1866, Letters from Hawaii.

[alkapal]

wow, a mark twain endorsement! <and he didn't even get *paid* for it!>

~~
ps, i *thought* i recognized mike ditka! ;-)).

[ekammin]

Any sausage (Italian, bangers, farmer's bratwurst, etc.) that has any form of poultry listed as one of the ingredients. The only meat in a sausage should be beef, pork, lamb or veal.

[Humbucker]

You've obviously never had Chinese goose liver sausage!

[monkeyrotica]

Or shellfish sausage. Lobster, scallops, and crab.....mmmmm. And what about blood puddings that are mostly oatmeal and, well, blood?

[PAO]

Lobster, coq au vin, pasta alfredo.

[Jacey]

Burritos (I just don't get the Chipote craze) and Mexican food in general. I guess I'm not really into the whole carby/cheesy thing. I tend to like lighter food.

[PAO]

Authentic Mexican food can be light. In this country, a lot is influenced by Tex Mex, which is a lot heavier.

[limster]

Yes - Mexican food is very diverse and with big differences between regions in Mexico.

[hotteacher1976]

I agree that American Mexican is overrated! I'm not really into it.

[Passadumkeg]

I disagree that American Mexican is overrated! I'm really into it.

Prime rib.

oldteacher

[c oliver]

I'm ambivalent

[alexthe5th]

Anything pan-Asian fusion. "Panko-encrusted lemon-grass dragon rolls served on a bed of lettuce with a ginger peanut sauce?" No thanks!

Pad thai is overrated, especially since most Thai restaurants aren't even remotely close to authentic and serve the overcooked noodles with that god-awful ketchup sauce.

[alkapal]

""" "Panko-encrusted lemon-grass dragon rolls served on a bed of lettuce with a ginger peanut sauce?""""
~~~~~~~
wha?!?!? where can i get that???

[sarahjay]

This thread seems more like a list of "Things lots of people make but very few make well"
in that way I'd like to add: Tuna Tartar
I've never liked it and it was everywhere for a while.

[thew]

in n out
shake shack

[observor]

In 'n' Out is not overrated, it's good, it just may be overhyped...I think, however, that the tastiness stems more from the dressing they put on than the burger itself.

[tatamagouche]

Not sure what the difference is. People who overhype something are overrating it, no?

[observor]

I would say overrated means people say it's better than it is, whereas overhyped I woud just say it gets more attention than a fast food burger should. For a fast food burger, In 'n' Out, is good, but going ecstatic over an inexpensive fast food burger seems unwarranted.

[tatamagouche]

But the attention it's getting is good attention; that's the definition of the word "hype" as well as the phrase "highly rated."

Well, never mind, I'm just getting into semantics here. In the end I think we all agree that it's a decent fast-food burger but hardly the best burger ever!

[thew]

im not sure i even agree with that - but .......

[tatamagouche]

Not to put words in your mouth, thew, or bad burgers!

[observor]

But is it the best *fast-food* burger ever?

I use hype meaning: Excessive publicity and the ensuing commotion
I use rating as: a measurement of quality

[tatamagouche]

Well, fast food burger, or fast food chain burger? Bet there are plenty of indie burger joints that can do better than In n Out.

[observor]

I don't know. I just know that In 'n' Out is good, I don't think it is overrated, it just shouldn't be talked about over hill and dale.

[EWSflash]

I thought it was the biggest burger disappointment I've had, or at least in the top 3. Plus it was Weird Lookiing People day, which turned it into a really crowded freak show. I don't know why it was that day there.

[thew]

good is in the tongue of the beswallower

[mountaincachers]

I've never eaten at In n Out, but given how much my West Coast friends rave about it, I'm sure I would be disappointed. Too many years of glowing praise would set it up for failure.

[mariacarmen]

i love that.

[RetiredChef]

+ 1 for In-N-Out being over-rated

In blind taste tests In-N-Out comes out in the bottom half of every list that I have seen, it’s all marketing hype. To be cool you have to love In-N-Out, their meat is greasy the cheese is pasty, their bun is as bland a wonder bread, they do use fresh lettuce and tomatoes, but their sauce has an over abundance of relish in it which I don’t like. And their fries are horrifically greasy and go limp in less than 2 minutes.

[sisterfunkhaus]

Rao's jarred pasta sauce.

[KailuaGirl]

The sausage and mushroom sauce is pretty good, if slightly overpriced. I keep a jar in the pantry for "just in case" - I don't feel like cooking but want to eat something that didn't come from a ziploc in the freezer. Freshly grated parmesan also helps.

[sisterfunkhaus]

Five Guys Burgers. everyone here raves about them. They were so greasy they made me sick. We have some stellar propeiter owned places around here.

[Passadumkeg]

Aaaaaameeeennnn! I can't see getting excited about Burger chain (Unless, of course, it is Blakes green chile cheeseburger.), when there are so many mom&pops places to get a real burger.

[alliegator]

Anything with Campbell's Cream of _______ Soup as an ingredient. Most of us would never cook or serve such a thing. But a whole lot of us probably go back to the hometown now again and are served a dish like this by a well-meaning family member who thinks it is the epitome of good eating. And you can only choke it down and smile.

[Passadumkeg]

While we were eating Dumkeg's green chile cream of pumkin soup last night, I mentioned in all my years of cooking I have never remember using Campbell' Cream of ______ soup. Nor can I remember my mother using it.

[KaimukiMan]

I guess I'm a philistine, but cream of mushroom soup was the base for a lot of food when I was growing up, and I still use it frequently myself, especially around the holidays. Perhaps it's like store bought bread. If that is what you know, it tastes good.

[Sal Vanilla]

I think it is fashionable to hork on Campbell's soup in the mix dinners.

I use it occasionally and in fact it is pretty good in nuclear potatoes.

[EWSflash]

I think you're right, Sal, but I do't use it nearly as much as my mother did.

BTW- my MIL makes her special potato soup by starting out with several cans of campbell's cream of potato and then putting other stuff in it. i always eat it and it tastes pretty good but i wouldn't probably claim it as my own specialty

[mariacarmen]

ooh, i did, in my early 20s, when i was way cuter but dumber. cream of mushroom on potatoes, green onions, cheddar cheese - and i think evaporated milk. some type of casserole. it featured proudly in my and my roommate's first big dinner party for adults - i.e, not our friends. along with a roast leg of lamb studded with garlic. I remember loving those potatoes then... wonder if i would now. not going to find out, tho.

[Sal Vanilla]

It is usually called nuclear potatoes or breakfast casserole. I guess I am one of those you might put in the dumb category. I like it.

[joonjoon]

I personally like anything made with Campbell's cream of X soup. I didn't grow up eating it or anything, it just tastes good to me.

[gaffk]

When I was growing up, mom butterflied boneless, skinless chicken breasts and pounded them down. Filled it with her stuffing (nothing from a box there), rolled them and topped with Campbell's cream of mushroom or cream of chicken. This was the 70s, so the cream soups were probably richer.

If I remember correctly (and who does?) these were tasty dinners. A side of succotash or spinach, a green salad with homemade dressing and a chocolate dessert.

I'll grant you I may not like this if you served it to me tomorrow, but yesterday that was some good food.

[alliegator]

I'm glad to see some positive responses here. It means my family isn't stark raving mad, most people like these dishes and maybe I'm just being picky :)-

[monkeyrotica]

I've made tuna/chicken casseroles with Campbell's Cream of X Soup and I've made them with a bechamel.

I prefer the Campbell's.

[mimolette]

It's not really a dish but I dislike popcorn. Fried sweetbread is another thing that seems everyone likes but me.

[Sal Vanilla]

I could live my life a thousand times over and be perfectly thrilled never to have sweetbreads again. I try them - usually with my mom who gets pissed when I say I do not like them - and usually pretend that it is divine to shut her up. Blah.

[Just Visiting]

Funny that this discussion started with ropa vieja but I don't think anyone mentioned Cuban Sandwich. It is a freaking ham and cheese with a pickle and a slice of roast pork! What is the big deal? In Cuba, they are just not a big deal at all, and they are typically served on stale bread.

[stopurmakingmehungry]

IDK, I like a good ropa vieja and Cuban sandwich. Around here the bread is pretty damn good on the sandwich, but yeah it's not something I have to eat even within say a 12 month period.

What I don't get is all the hype for red velvet cakes and cupcakes. I get the appeal of the cream cheese frosting, but I don't think the cake itself has any flavor.

[Steve]

A good ropa vieja would be a good thing, but it is usually wet and chewy and the meat itself has no flavor, just the sauce.

[alkapal]

i think the meat in most ropa vieja is flavorless because they cook the flavor out of it by cooking too long -- like what happens to chicken in a stew.

i much prefer a cuban pork fricassee made with a sour-orange mojo marinated pork butt.

[playfulotter]

I feel the same about red velvet anything..I remember devils food cake as a child and that was much better!

[TropiChef]

Chocolate Mousse (Yuk!) and "gourmet" pizza. I love pizza, true Italian or NY style if it is made well - but gourmet? Really???

[jeanmarieok]

Pizza should never have chicken on it. Ever.

[EWSflash]

Too right. Broccoli also.

[Sal Vanilla]

I would appreciate if you included pineapple or BBQ sauce on the exclusion list.

[EWSflash]

Sorry, I tried pineapple on a pizza once just for S&G and ended up liking it- a lot. Pepperoni and pineapple is one of my favorite pizza combos now.

[TexSquared]

Agree on the pizza. True Italian, New York, or Chicago style for me. (Buffalo, NY style is pretty good, it's a NYC-Chicago hybrid). I totally dislike all of that "California Pizza Kitchen" thin-crust-with-stupid-toppings crap that Wolfgang Puck inflicted on the world.... When I see a review on my local board saying "great thin-crust pizza" I read that as an oxymoron and a warning to stay away.

[TropiChef]

Jeanmarieok, I agree about chicken on pizza.......nothing could be more silly.

I like Chicago style too, TexSqd - pretty much any pizza that is traditional and well prepared. But things like Thai "pizza" or seafood pizza or, horror of horrors, caviar topped pizza!! Plain, with peperoni or the classic loaded works for me.

[joonjoon]

I personally like my pies plain, but I don't see what's wrong with chicken on pizza. I've had ones I've enjoyed very much.

[tatamagouche]

I'm a raving Italophile, yet am not a purist when it comes to pizza. No reason all kinds of things can't go on a crust. Italians have their own toppings Americans might find odd (e.g. tuna and corn). I only object to those mass-produced abominations that have 8 kinds of meat folded inside two crusts smothered in cheese with a cherry on top, and to seeing Americans going to Italy and being disappointed that they can't find it there.

[alkapal]

tata, have you been to "TACO TOWN"?!?!?!

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-liv...

[monkeyrotica]

Well, if you ever find yourself in Japan, don't try the pizza. It'll just make you angry.

http://blog.greggman.com/blog/japanes...

[Tripeler]

Not necessarily. These days quite a bit of good pizza is made in Japan.
http://www.salvatore.jp/corporate/

[monkeyrotica]

I actually like to try the "thin-crust-with-stupid-toppings crap" every once in a while. Gives me an appreciation for pizza that doesn't have octopus and pigs-in-a-blanket on them.

[linguafood]

What on earth is wrong with chocolate mousse? If it's done well, it is a wonderful, rich, chocolatey dessert. Certainly not something to go 'yuk' over...

[TropiChef]

I don't like it. It seems to be served on every dessert menu.
I don't like the texture of it or the fact it is made with raw eggs and heavy cream... ugh! It's not my thing.
If you like it that's great - there are a wide variety of tastes, but I find it Yuk! I'll take a well made chocolate cake over chocolate mousse any day!

[Passadumkeg]

Mac & Cheese; I just don't get it. Bland, constipating, artery clogging crap! Wouldn't feed it to my dog. (Maybe my cat, though.),

[mariacarmen]

i made one once with spanish chorizo and jalapeno jack cheese. and crumbled Backyard BBQ Kettle Chips on top. bland it was not.

[mateo21]

I don't know, Maria, that mac & Cheese sounds like it might be overrated.

[mariacarmen]

ahahahaa!

[Passadumkeg]

The last Mac & cheese I made was w/ lobster. Meh.

[mariacarmen]

goddamn you.

[Passadumkeg]

Ya notice deary, there ain't no mac or cheese in a saltena!

[mariacarmen]

what a great idea! ( :

[TropiChef]

Your poor cat :( Passadumkeg!

I love mac and cheese if it's done right and homemade. It's wonderful made with bacon, a seasoned cheese sauce of mixed cheeses (maybe mustard and Worcestershire sauce) and topped with buttered bread crumbs. But I realize it's not for everyone.
And it can be fattening if you use full fat cheese and cream........ I agree. I don't use cream, but some homemade mac and cheese hits the spot now and then....... it's comfort food for me.

[Passadumkeg]

I've only had it home made. It's just too bland. I guess I need to not eat each so much spice, but why? M&C is just meh and not comforting for moi.

[alliegator]

I'm going to agree here. Baked is just nasty with cheese that is all geasy and clumped up, at least in my experience. And the kind that you make with cheese dust or the sauce pouch, yikes. I know I'm in the minority, but it's not my cup of tea.

[Passadumkeg]

If I were invited to someone's house and they had prepared M&C, I'd eat it w/ gusto, but no desire to make for myself.

[monkeyrotica]

When it's done right, mac & cheese is NOT greasy or clumped up. It should be rich and creamy, like a thick frittata. I've had greasy ones, but the WORST I've had was some "gourmet" mac & cheese nightmare of gruyere and lobster: you couldn't taste the lobster because it was overpowered by the cheese which itself was reduced to an oilslick. It was like the poor lobster drowned after a gruyere oil tanker ran aground on my plate. And I got to pay $14 for the privelege.

[thew]

like any other mac and cheese, a lobster one should be done well. sounds like yours wasn't

[monkeyrotica]

I've pretty much given up on lobster mac & cheese. I've tried it at three different restaurants, and it's either (1) greasy (2) tasteless or (3) more burnt crust than soft pasta.

[thew]

i'm not crazy about it either - but it doesn't have to be greasy - thats all i meant

[Passadumkeg]

I make a pretty good mac & lobber; not greasy at all, tons of lobster, good flavor.

[EWSflash]

Were you raised Catholic, where you had various nonmeat-in-the-50s-and-60s Fridays? That's where a lot of my friends began hating mac & cheese, but it fueled my passion for it.

[Passadumkeg]

Yes, and during lent no meat. I still do, however, love potato pancakes and fish. Mom made a purddy good M&C.

[IndyGirl]

I have always despised mac & cheese, even gourmet ones. It's the pasta that just gets mushy or something.

[chickenbruiser]

Not really a dish but an entire genre... "authentic"... not that there's anything wrong with that but if we're talking about overhype then this is it... people's search for the most authentic (mexican, chinese, italian, american..oh yeah that doesn't apply). It doesn't make sense... if you want genuine chinese cuisine... go to China. If you want to taste "genuine" chinese in New York... you can't because it is a copy of the genuine and therefore not authentic.

[tatamagouche]

Hmm. Well, the argument about authenticity is much-hashed on these here boards. But it usually revolves around the definition of the term, and I'm not sure I agree with yours. It seems to be based solely on the concept of terroir, ignoring human agency entirely. Does the Chinese cuisine of which you speak contain chilies, say, as in Hunanese or Sichuan? If so, those chilies originally came from the New World. So is your "authentic" Chinese cuisine in China therefore inauthentic, because it uses ingredients from beyond China?

I think my point is that I disagree with attaching the concept of authenticity to place. I'd say rather that you're tasting literal Chinese cuisine if you have it in China, but "literal" is neutral; "authentic" is loaded.

As for "American cuisine," the term is no more or less useful than is "Chinese cuisine." There are perfectly "authentic" regional American cuisines. Political boundaries aren't culinary ones, especially in countries that cover so much ground and, especially in our case, have seen so much immigration. They're convenient, but that distinction always needs to be recognized.

[linguafood]

+1. Having just taken a Chinese friend from the Sichuan province to our local chili heaven, he pronounced the dan dan noodles as "exactly the way they make it at home". So much for not being able to recreate a level of 'authenticity' in a different country.

But yeah, this authenticity thing has been beaten to death on these boards...

[buttertart]

Heyyy, high praise indeed on the dan dan noodles!

[linguafood]

What - your SIL already went?

[buttertart]

Yes at least once - loved it - but I meant that it was high praise coming from a Sichuanese. PS it's Thursday and they're in town.

[linguafood]

I've already invited them. They might be able to make it!

[buttertart]

Yay, how fun!!! CH meetup by proxy!

[Steve]

Spoken like someone who has never been to Flushing.

I think all restauranats in the US are American restaurants, so in a way you are right they are not the same as going to a French restaurant in France, etc.

But we strive to do the best we can. The food itself can be pretty much the same as from the home country or a reasonable facsimile. Probably not an entire menu, that would be unlikely, but some dishes they can get dead on, are indeed authentic, and the pursuit of such dishes can lead you to some amazing discoveries and awesome meals compared to the wasteland of General Tso.

[c oliver]

Yep, Steve, all it takes is one trip to Flushing to make a believer out of ya, huh? I could live there quite easily.

[monkeyrotica]

+1. The "authenticity" fetish is particularly bewildering to me because cuisine is in a constant state of flux. It's constantly being re-interpreted by immigrants constrained by a the limitations of regional foodstuffs. I've lost track of the "authentic" pizzas/chinese/sandwiches that sent me rushing for the "inauthetic" yet tastier counterparts. I read how the foreign business influx in China has created a demand for "authentic" Chinese-American food: the chop sueys and General Tso's that have no equivalent in China. I have to wonder if people over there complain about how you can only get proper moogoo gaipan in a stripmall in Dubuque.

[Parigi]

""inauthetic" yet tastier counterparts. I read how the foreign business influx in China has created a demand for "authentic" Chinese-American food: the chop sueys and General Tso's that have no equivalent in China."

If you have access to "tasty" chopsuey, bravo. Chop suey does exist, but it literally means things-thrown-together, or "slob". Therefore there IS equivalent in China, just not at all, but at all, desirable.
Imagine a tourist ordering a dish of "jetsam" in America.

[observor]

This is quality ropa vieja:

2 1/2 pounds skirt steak or flank steak, cut into 3-inch pieces
Salt and ground black pepper
2 tablespoons vegetable oil
1 medium onion , minced
2 tablespoons tomato paste
2 1/2 cups water , plus extra as needed
2 bay leaves
1 (14.5-ounce) can diced tomatoes
2 tablespoons vegetable oil
2 large red bell peppers , stemmed, seeded, and sliced into thin strips
2 large green bell peppers , stemmed, seeded, and sliced into thin strips
1 medium onion , halved and sliced thin
1/2 teaspoon salt
3 medium garlic cloves , minced or pressed through a garlic press (about 1 tablespoon)
1 teaspoon dried oregano
3/4 teaspoon ground cumin
1/2 cup dry white wine
1/2 cup pimiento-stuffed green olives , rinsed and halved
2 tablespoons minced fresh parsley leaves
1 - 3 tablespoons white wine vinegar
Ground black pepper

1. FOR THE MEAT: Adjust an oven rack to the middle position and heat the oven to 325 degrees. Pat the meat dry with paper towels and season with salt and pepper. Heat the oil in a large Dutch oven over medium-high heat until just smoking. Brown half of the meat on both sides, about 5 minutes per side, reducing the heat if the pan begins to scorch. Transfer the meat to a plate; set aside.

2. Add the onion to the fat left in the pot and cook over medium heat until softened and browned, 7 to 10 minutes. Stir in the tomato paste and cook until slightly browned, about 1 minute. Stir in the water, scraping up any browned bits. Add the bay leaves, browned meat with any accumulated juices, and remaining unbrowned meat and bring to a boil. Reduce to a simmer, cover, and transfer the pot to the oven. Cook until the meat is tender and a fork inserted into the center of the largest piece meets little resistance, 2 to 2 1/2 hours.

3. Transfer the meat to a platter and cool slightly; when cool enough to handle, shred into small pieces using 2 forks (see illustrations below). Pour the broth into a liquid measuring cup and let settle for 5 minutes. Spoon off and discard any fat that accumulates at the top of the broth; you should have about 2 cups of broth (if short, add water).

4. FOR THE PEPPERS AND SAUCE: Pulse the tomatoes and their juice in a food processor until crushed, about 7 pulses, and set aside. Add the oil to the Dutch oven and heat over medium-high heat until shimmering. Add the peppers, onion, and salt and cook until the vegetables are softened and lightly browned, 8 to 10 minutes. Stir in the garlic, oregano, and cumin and cook until fragrant, about 1 minute. Stir in the wine, scraping up any browned bits. Stir in the tomatoes, olives, and 2 cups reserved broth, bring to a simmer, and cook until the peppers are soft and the liquid has reduced slightly, 12 to 15 minutes.

5. Stir in the shredded meat and continue to cook until the meat is heated through and the flavors have combined, about 5 minutes. Stir in the parsley and 1 tablespoon of the vinegar, adding the remaining 2 tablespoons vinegar to taste. Season with salt and pepper to taste before serving.

[EWSflash]

I'm glad to see you didn't call for chicken, it just can't handle long cooking in a broth, imo

[jhopp217]

I know this is an old thread and I'm going to get crucified for saying this, but....pretty much any pasta dish with any type of red sauce.

[Parigi]

Your category is so broad. It's like saying food in general is overrated.

[Sal Vanilla]

100% agree with you on both accounts. "WHY would I want to eat old clothes? " I ask each and every time. Meanwhile Vaca Frita - with cubes big enough to retain their succulence, But not soo big that you only get a couple and are deprived of smaller ones with crispy-crunch-fatty-outside. Served alongside some deep dark crunchy yet soft and gooey sweet plantains along side... (singing) Heaven!

[Sal Vanilla]

I am probably alone but...

I am sorta sick to death of foie gras. I see it on every menu it seems. I have had it a few times out and bought a lobe because my husband drove me batty wanting to buy one - which he ate all by himself (oink). I mean - sure, it is good, but all the orgasmic yammering makes me think people just like it because: 1) for the same reason they want to eat endangered species or 2) they like the idea of it because it is a larded up "delicacy".

You want me to go into a fugue state? Give me a baseball cut top sirloin - black and blue and a potato loaded with all sorts of evil until it threatens to spill off my plate. Do not try to give me a finger of foie and a soldier of precious brioche and wait for me to make like Sally at the NY Deli.

[limster]

Goose or duck foie gras?

[linguafood]

The great thing about restaurant menus is that we can order pretty much whatever strikes our fancy.

I personally am sick to death of seeing the over-done 'spring greens w/candied walnuts, pear, and goat cheese (sub blue cheese sometimes)' on each and every menu.... so guess what?

I don't order it.

It's not that I don't like salad - in fact, I am a great lover of salads, it's just so uninspired and repetitive that it bores me to death.

However, if I see foie (or sweetbreads, for that matter) on the menu, I gotta have it.

Isn't it just fabulous that we can all order what we like, not order what we don't like, and be happy all around?

Yay.

[Sal Vanilla]

Wasn't the topic "most overrated dishes"? Maybe I misunderstood. Many people like it, I do not - isn't that how it works?

Yes, freedom of choice is marvelous.

[tatamagouche]

For me, I may have already said this, it's beet salads. I like beets, but it's been 6 or 7 years now that every damn restaurant has to have one. Enough!

[Steve]

I think they passed a law that beets must appear with goat cheese. And nuts in salad must now be candied or spiced.

[joonjoon]

+1 on the foie...I can never not order when it see it.

[observor]

I started a thread recently about my first try of foie gras torchon and how much I hated it...greasy nastiness. To be fair, I may have seared foie gras someday, but if I don't like that then I ain't ever gettin' it again.

[Passadumkeg]

Butter Ball type turkeys. Our administrators brought in 3 turkeys for the Holidays. What a flavorless bird. Even the dark meat need to be smothered w/ guacamole.

[lilgi]

I'll probably get clobbered for saying this but here it goes:

Any kind of pasta (this includes ANY kind of ravioli, gnocchi, cavatelli, etc. no matter how delicious it sounds) with marinara/meat sauce, and it doesn't matter if it comes from the home of a fantastic cook or the most distinguished restaurant; and this is coming from someone who jars her own sauce. Seriously, we give most of it away, but I wouldn't care if I never had to make this at home again. I guess I'm just sick of it lol.

Seriously though, I'm starting to phase it out completely.

[jhopp217]

Golf Clap! I am in 100% agreement!

[butterfly]

Oh, I love ropa vieja and it's very time consuming to make well. Every Cuban family has an abuela who can make a huge tray of the stuff to feed everyone for a week during a family gathering--it's the ultimate comfort food. I've had lots of good versions in restaurants, but it's the kind of thing I'll only order when I know I'm somewhere that is firmly entrenched in Cuban home cooking. If there were a Cuban dish that I would pass on, it would be picadillo. It's much quicker and easier to make at home and my semi-Cuban significant other does a good version (not so with the ropa vieja...).

[thew]

it is also found in puerto rico, the dominican republic, and most of the rest of the spanish speaking caribbean

[butterfly]

I live in Spain and you can also find ropa vieja in the Canary Islands--with garbanzos--which I think may be the origin of the dish in the Caribbean. They also add pimentón (from Spain, via the Americas, of course), which is very nice. We also have a dish in Madrid called ropa vieja, but it's completely different--made from the leftovers from "cocido." Much more pig oriented.

[Steve]

My sister-in-law is Cuban. Her family came from the Canary Islands which is apparently pretty common.

[jrock645]

anything involving calamari. I will never understand what everybody's deal is with that stuff.
2nd would probably have to be filet mignon. Plenty of cuts of beef that are more flavorful, and 90% of people likely wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a filet and a teres major.

[daydream]

I actually like filet mignon sometimes (first choice is a ribeye though) because of portion control. (Because I'd like to eat only 6-8 oz of meat instead of 12-16, even though I WANT more!) However, I hate that restaurants mark the filet mignon up.

[tatamagouche]

Well, there's been a whole thread on this, but calamari well-prepared is dreamy. Buttery, slightly sweet, creamy textured—love it. Mild, yes, but far from flavorless.

[alkapal]

i just had some silky, tender calamari in an italian seafood salad. so simply made, yet so delicious -- the flavor of the seafood shone through with just olive oil and lemon.

[monkeyrotica]

I don't think the flavor of calamari is a turnoff to some people so much as the texture. Poorly prepared, it's rubbery and if improperly fried it's greasy as well. Can't say as I blame someone for hating on calamari if they've never had it done right; it's very easy to mess up.

Similar situation with the texture of octopus. I've had a lot of rubbery octopi in my day. Then I had it at a Greek place that does some sort of marinade, followed by a quick grill and just lemon. Incredibly tender and not rubbery at all.

[alkapal]

you're right about the texture easily getting tough.
~~~~~~

was this greek place around dc? (hopefully in nova?).

[monkeyrotica]

The Greek place with the grilled octopus is Cava Mezze, 527 8th Street SE. There's another in Rockville.

[alkapal]

thanks! that's not far from my office.

[daydream]

Stuff I have to echo:

- Pesto
- Caviar
- Takeaway pizza

In addition, I also am so tired of the buzz/hype/ubiquitousness of:

- Starbucks coffee (Why is it chic when it tastes of sweet burnt crap? Why?)
- Hot dogs (Don't tell me your city does them better or that I'm not putting on the right condiments or eating the right bun. They're gross and you could be getting porky fatty goodness in so many other ways!)
- Fettucine Alfredo (Maybe I haven't had this the 'right' way, but it's usually some nice creaminess and not much else. I want garlic, and sharpness, and bite, and I usually get glue.)
- Cilantro

[kjonyou]

Chunky vegtible soups! Why is it that when I walk down the soup isle all I see is 20 feet of soup all of which are chunky...fill in the blank. Its not 1950 any more, good restaurants dont serve soups this way because people wouldnt pay for what they could get out of a can.

So why do people still elevate childhood utilitarian cooking? Its not 1950 anymore. I know it may be comforting to live in the past but eelings aside, there really is no reason to brag about how much you love chunky soups if you are not willing to pay $20.00 in a restaurant for the same chunky mess.

[thew]

i prefer chunky soups to blended ones, in general.

i think you have it backwards - pureed soups are served in restaurants because that mouth feel was once considered more refined elegant/ i don't that old school heavy luxuriousness is preferable to a modern palette more attuned to lighter less muddied flavors

[piccola]

I prefer chunky soups too -- perfectly smooth ones are less interesting, texture-wise. Even when I'm doing a puréed soup, I try to leave it a little less than smooth.

[RealMenJulienne]

What's the big deal about risotto? It's an overpriced European version of rice porridge with cheese in it.

[thew]

it tastes good

[alkapal]

i'm not familiar with rice porridge, but i do like risotto. it is easy to make at home, can really be tuned to the season with fresh local produce, and is much cheaper to DIY than restaurants.

is rice porridge also called rice pudding? or is it like rice pudding without the sugar, and savory instead? if so, my risotto has quite a different texture than the long-grain rice of my "rice pudding" understanding.

maybe i'm partial to rice, but i like a soupy chicken and rice every now and then -- as comfort food.

[daydream]

Strawberry shortcake

French onion soup

Calamari

Anything with Grand Marnier in abundance (ick)

White gravy

And amen on pesto and pizza.

[Ned_Detroit]

Almost any sort of cream based sauces, mushrooms, american style bacon used as a topping or ingredient in something else. I am also not at all fond of the traditional American holiday foods especially ham and turkey and most of their assorted trimmings. Another thing I really don't like are thickly cut gag inducing slabs of roast meats; sharpen the damn knife, let the meat rest and learn how to cut it properly.

[alkapal]

oh ned! i'm glad you didn't eat at my house on friday night, where we had a slab of prime new york strip steak with a cognac mushroom & pepper cream sauce!

[gaffk]

I'll take Ned's place at the table!

[alkapal]

gaffk, i'll keep that in mind. would you like the cabernet, too?

poor ned, he doesn't even like tomato sandwiches -- what a lousy summer without those!

[gaffk]

Yes please; I'll bring the cab as well. I'll bring mom's cucumber and onion salad too (so as not to seem too much of a moocher :)

Poor Ned . . .

[alkapal]

i'd like that salad. doesn't it have a little sugar? i've got some vidalias now. it would be good with the steak, too.

[gaffk]

Yep, sugar and vinegar, cucumbers and ice water. Perfect with a steak and corn on the cob. I am so looking forward to summer eating.

[alkapal]

gaffk, i made a version of your cuke salad today and ate waaaay too much of it. this salad will be ready in my fridge all summer -- ready to devour with zero guilt. YUM!

[gaffk]

Looks great alkapal . . . I like the addition of the red beans. I think I'll have to make the first of the season tomorrow (it's hot, humid and the local farmer's market finally opened).

[alkapal]

the kidney beans were nice there, as they gave a little "meaty" texture and a bit of savory to play off the sweet & sour crunch of the vidalia and cuke. <i found that the "giant" brand (a local grocery chain) kidney beans were *beautiful* -- bright, firm, intact…and in a white-lined can. they are the best canned beans i've had in a very long time. >

i only had one cuke and used one vidalia, even though the "recipe" called for two cukes. one could use a mandoline, but not slice too thin. here's the recipe i used as my baseline: http://www.cdkitchen.com/recipes/recs...

for the dressing i used rice wine vinegar & water, sugar, and some vegetable oil plus a touch of evoo. i added granulated garlic, 21-spice-salute from trader joe's, some dried dill too -- along with some red pepper flakes and s&p. the beauty of the dressing is that it is very light. i realized that the dressing was very close to one of my favorites -- three bean salad. (i think wax beans would be neat in this, too. it is just a super flexible recipe!). were i to use a bit of fish sauce and some lime juice along with the rice wine vinegar, maybe some light brown sugar or palm sugar with thai bird chiles….then i'd be at my favorite thai salad, som tam (with cuke and onion instead of green papaya, of course).

thank you gaffk for reminding me of how great this simple salad is for the summer. i WILL be making it a lot -- and i'd bet it'll be good atop cottage cheese or a big slice of ripe tomato, too. summer foods make summer worth the heat and humidity of the d.c. swamp!
;-).

post script: mr. alka -- a confirmed adversary of vegetables and cole slaw LOVED this salad.

[gaffk]

Thanks for the link! I was actually very lazy today (did I mention hot & humid?), so I picked up, of all things, three bean salad made by the local Amish. Very tasty!

[alkapal]

don't you think the dressing is similar? i'll bet that Amish salad you got is tasty -- with fresh green and wax beans. was the third bean a kidney bean? do they harvest their own kidney beans? <i don't even know what a kidney bean bush looks like, come to think of it! here is one photo: http://scispy.discovery.com/pg/scispy... >

[gaffk]

Yes, the dressings are very similar and the salad was quite tasty. I have always assumed the Amish grow their own beans, but then that's just my assumption based on what I know of the Amish. (I also got a zucchini relish--with red and green peppers, onion and garlic--can't wait to crack it open; and a blueberry pie :)

[alkapal]

i forgot to mention that i threw some celery seed in the salad, too.

[Ned_Detroit]

A nice slab of prime NY strip does sound good, especially if it's nice and bloody in the centre, I'd skip the mushroom and cream though, all a good steak really needs is a little salt & pepper, though I wouldn't be averse to a dash of Worcestershire sauce or nice pan reduction of the meat juices with a litte red wine or some other alcoholic libation. If you are serving a thick slab of steak you really need to provide some good sharp steak knives, preferably non-serrated.

[EarlyBird]

The Philly Cheesteak. Yes, I've had "authentic" ones in Philadelphia, the ones that have started minor gang war in CH. SO very lacking in flavor or anything memorable whatsoever.

[gaffk]

Yes, the cheesesteak can prompt a holy war in Philly. There are actually flavorful versions, but not really at the tourist trap spots.

But if you check out the Philly board, you'll discover we really prefer the roast pork with rabe and sharp provolone (from DeNic's preferably).

[EarlyBird]

I had a Dinick's sandwich, and it was very good. I had my cheesesteak at Jim's, which was recommended, and it was next to tasteless.

[linguafood]

Personally, I think that sandwich is totally overrated.

[S_K]

I don't like pumpkin pie. I've tried some at different intervals in life and I just don't get it. It's almost like a joke gone wrong. .

[buttertart]

You, me, and JayF are in the same boat here. I do not see the appeal at all.

[thew]

i don't like pumpkin pie, but i don't think it is overrated

[S_K]

Really? I feel like people worship it at Thanksgiving time! Maybe it's just the people I hang out with.

[arktos]

Dishes, not food items or ingredients! that to me, quality as overrated:

The uncontested #1 champ in this field is:
- Chicken Pot Pie: Would cause me to instantly projectile puke. No need to say more.

Speaking of chicken, add this enormously overrated one in as well:
- Chicken Tikka Masala: It is somewhat tasty, granted, but it doesn't deserve the wild accolades that it gets.

- Carne asada: Really now, usually too dry and overcooked.

- Creamed corn: Another member of the projectile puke catagory. Wouldn't eat this monstrosity if it was the last food on Earth. Mearly thinking of it makes me quesy.

- Feijoada: Never really saw the appeal. Just a mish-mash of (usually) over cooked
meat items, with black beans (another item that barely missed joining this list!), kale/collards and other uninspiring items.

- Boston beans: Really an insipid nightmare from Hell. Originally given to us by the Indians, who must have been into some kind of inside joke on this.

- The 'English/Irish breakfast': Just an array of mostly nauseating do-dads such as black pudding, left-over vegges, hash, kidneys, kippers and laverbread. Only the English and Irish could come up with a tragedy such as this one.

- Goulash: It's mostly OK, but why it's so popular eludes me.

- Borscht: See above.

- Yorkshire pudding: Just a lot of insignificant nothing, in my opinion. Culinary nihilism.

- Potato salad: I WILL say that only the Japanese make a semi-decent version of this crap given to us by the Germans.

- Chicken paparika: See Goulash.

- Cottage Pie: Weird taste textures. Should have stayed in the cottage.

- Pot stickers: Just aren't all that!

- Deviled eggs: Mayonaissy emetics.

- Pho: Really just a lot of overcooked meat items, mismatched herbs; but the broth is tasty. But if you thing this is GREAT food, then you're nothing more than a pho.

- Banh Mi sandwiches: OK, I'll admit, they're mildly tasty and I like them, but like Tikka masala they don't deserve the fanatical devotion they inspire.

- Tom Kha Kai soup: I've said enough!

[alkapal]

so, essentially, your dining companions should always carry a bucket?

[Passadumkeg]

Does the birthday cake jump out you, rather than vice versa?

[Ned_Detroit]

A really good bowl of borscht, like the one my babka used to make and neither I nor my mother have ever been able to reproduce, is transcendent, almost jewel-like colours, sweet and savoury with incredible depth of flavour and variation in texture from the slipperiness of the sour cream and richness of the stock to the melting texture of the beets themselves to the subtle crunch and chewiness of the stalk and greens which she would add just before it was ready to serve.
As for potato salad: Which potato salad? There are so many variations I don't think it's possible to consider over or underrated. I have some horrid eggy and mayonnaisey glop masquerading as potato salad but I've also had and made a whole range of amazingly delicious potato salads of both hot and cold varieties. Right now I'm looking forward to a grilled new potato and asparagus potato salad with a mustard dill vinaigrette.

[therealdoctorlew]

My childhood was blessed with two disparate versions of borscht, via two old world grandmothers. One made a cold beet soup. sweet and sour, enriched with sour cream, and perfected with chopped cucumber. The other produced hot near transparent beet and beef broth, with pieces of beets, bits of beef that had needed the hours of cooking to make tender, a few flattened droplets of orange fat gracing the surface, and some cabbage for good measure. Neither used a recipe, so no recipe was handed down, and these culinary gems exist only in memory. As such, they cannot be over-rated.

Arktos needed a few grandmothers.

[S_K]

An observation...wondering if you might have allergies to some of the ingredients in these things if they make you feel nauseated vs. gross tasting. Like maybe dairy or high fat? A friend of mine didn't realize until later in life...

[Passadumkeg]

Hamburgers and hot dogs. They have reached almost Divine status in the US, complete w/ cult followings (Holy Chain Hamburgers?).
The Holy Trinity of burgers; in the name to the In 'N Out (complete w/ scripture on the drink cups.), The 5 Guys and Holy Slider. JFC!
The regional hot dog wars are a continuation of the Civil War. "You can't put ketchup on a dog you dirty Reb!" Regionalism at its worst.
Folks, it's just junque food.

OH YES, GIMME A GREEN CHILE CHEESEBURGER, WILL YA?

[Ned_Detroit]

I've only had ropa vieja a couple of times in Cuban restaurants in Detroit and I found it very good each time, the meat was not tough but rather meltingly tender and extremely flavourful with some rather intriguing seasonings and combinations of tastes, it's not high cuisine bit Latin American comfort food and a decent Cuban has no excuse for messing it up.