650700 Mon Sep 07 16:12:25 -0700 2009 48 18 Manhattan 0 5011814 I ate two sandwichs over the holiday weekend and was so disappointed. I asked for a lox recommendation of a less salty salmon for a bagel cream cheese and lox sandwich with tomato and onion., everything bagel. The story falls short here because dispite three attempts in asking the name of the nova he suggested; I couldn't understand. However, whatever it was the salmon was just ok. A little different which was fun but nothing to rave about. The real problem was the rest of the sandwich. The bagels are so chewy and firm that nothing other then a slice of meat, would shoot out the back upon first bite. It can't be eaten as a sandwich, which to me is huge. The constant mess of restuffing the onion and cream cheese from the back of the bagel and back of your hand. The tomato was aweful for anytime of the year. The onion was random chunks with filmy skin. The second sandwich was chopped liver on sesame. Image that explosion. I know a knife and fork would solve most of this, but I and maybe the other folks huddled over the benches outside like the eat a sandwich like a sandwich. Perhaps I miss the fun? Mon Sep 07 16:12:25 -0700 2009 11623 shoeman 1 5011841 was this your first time at R&D? you do not go there for the chopped liver...sorry — and chopped liver on a bagel...NO...try the chopped herring... to me that is like going to Katz's for a tuna sandwich Mon Sep 07 16:22:12 -0700 2009 5011814 66726 pbjluver 1 5011888 I'm sorry you had a sub-par experience. I never get the bagels there (I'm a Kossar's devotee, and a bialy girl, anyway), so I'm in no position to defend them. But I bet towards the end of the day - or over a holiday weekend - the bagels will tend to fight you, because they're not so fresh. I think Russ & Daughters' salmon, herring, and cream cheese are without peer, though. What salmon has impressed you in the past? Mon Sep 07 16:41:51 -0700 2009 5011814 13722 small h 2 5117119 I am responding to the person that mentioned she is a Kossar's devotee. I guess you never ate at Kossar's years ago. The bialy's now are tasteless in my opinion. Years ago, you could walk by the store and smell that wonderful scent of baking - not anymore. They never seem to be fresh at a time or day you go by. Russ & Daughters also is not the way it used to be, Tue Oct 20 09:19:44 -0700 2009 5011888 59737 mstropicana 3 5118106 I'm fortunate enough to live 7 minutes from Kossars, by foot. So I can tell you with certainty that there are most definitely times when you can walk by and smell the bialys baking. Here's hoping you luck out on your next trip - I know how frustrating it is to miss something you remember so fondly. And if you can point me to a better bialy in Manhattan, I'm all ears. Also? Nothing is the way it used to be. I sure as hell am not. Tue Oct 20 14:28:11 -0700 2009 5117119 13722 small h 3 5128622 My family was in town last weekend for The New Yorker Festival, so I made a trip to Russ & Daughters and Kossar's to stock the house for their stay. Everything was amazing, especially the wonderful goodies from Russ & Daughters: salmon, herring, chubs, cheeses. The only reason that it's "not the way it used to be" is because we all change, and our minds play tricks on us; Russ & Daughters is as great as ever. Sat Oct 24 20:21:26 -0700 2009 5117119 10820 Blumie 1 5011984 While I happen to like R&D bagels, they do get a bit chewy toward the end of the day. Generally, I purchase the salmon of my choice, cream cheese, etc separately and fix it all myself and have yet to be disappointed. If you do want them to make the sandwich, you can specify which salmon you'd like and they are pretty accomodating... they'll even cut it in 4 pieces if you ask. And chopped liver on a bagel? Really? I wouldn't... better to have that on rye or crackers. It is messy, and R&D excels in other areas as pbjluver stated. Herring, whitefish, their cream cheese is delicious. Mon Sep 07 17:24:08 -0700 2009 5011814 149592 iluvcookies 1 5013381 Just a technical suggestion - I find it much easier to eat a bagel and lox sandwich open faced. I also put the onions under the salmon to help it stay secure while eating. Tue Sep 08 09:26:41 -0700 2009 5011814 10147 michele cindy 2 5013421 Michele - glad to see your still around. How are you? I understand about the open face which is the way to go but its served like a sandwich and I think should be eaten like a sandwich. The whole experience was certainly not up to the hype reported by most on this board. I always assume I'VE missed something, but I know I could go to my quasi Jewish Deli in the heart of south jersey and have a better lox and begal sandwich. All that about late in the day and hard to eat bagels in just silly. Tue Sep 08 09:38:22 -0700 2009 5013381 11623 shoeman 3 5013849 all clear. Good to see you too! Tue Sep 08 12:00:54 -0700 2009 5013421 10147 michele cindy 3 5014037 i don't know about the quasi-Jewish S.Jersey place you speak of, nor do i doubt that you got the bagel and tomato part on an off day...but the fish quality at Russ&D is best i've had anywhere (including Vancouver, Norway, and other havens of topnotch fish smoking)...i think it's so good that i prefer to eat it by itself, without any bread to detract from the salmon... there are also happy to give you tastes of their various salmons so you can choose the one that best suits your palate... Tue Sep 08 13:17:18 -0700 2009 5013421 11077 Simon 4 5014395 I can't contest the quality of R&D and have happily been coming to the store since the 1970's--but I do think that some of the counter folks will take the easy way out and not cut the salmon with the care it deserves...And I don't think a customer should need to remind the counter person that salmon should be sliced thin, etc... Tue Sep 08 15:10:47 -0700 2009 5014037 204204 penthouse pup 3 5014450 <All that about late in the day and hard to eat bagels in just silly.> And yet that's just what happened to you. So it may be "silly," but it's true. Tue Sep 08 15:30:12 -0700 2009 5013421 13722 small h 4 5014813 Yes... even the best bread goes stale :) Tue Sep 08 17:46:21 -0700 2009 5014450 149592 iluvcookies 3 5030442 ya that place is just good for DIY components, and not to be eaten out-of-hand like that. with you michele, on the open face; only way to do this sorta food. Mon Sep 14 21:12:34 -0700 2009 5013421 12656 bigjeff 4 5031566 Hence my disappointment....everyone raves about picking up a lox sandwich and eating it on the benches outside. Aweful experience. Tue Sep 15 10:17:18 -0700 2009 5030442 11623 shoeman 5 5032955 .....who eats lox on a bench?? ....on houston street ON LABOR DAY?? oy................ Tue Sep 15 19:17:28 -0700 2009 5031566 13043 12jenny 6 5033388 With all due respect 12jenny-I do!!!! Its one of my favorite routines in the world. I buy a little of this and a little of that then take my treasures out to the bench on Houston and pig out!!! My faves on a bagel are the lox, herring and yes-chopped liver!! I know people walking by all stare cause they are so jealous of my mini picnic. Wed Sep 16 03:16:57 -0700 2009 5032955 105205 UES Mayor 7 5049766 I sit on those benches to eat their bagel & lox too, the only option as I don't live in the city anymore. I like sitting in front of American Apparel stuffing my face, frankly. But I've never been to R&D past about 10:30am, so I can't vouch for what happens in the afternoons. Tue Sep 22 12:46:23 -0700 2009 5033388 91237 hollerhither 8 5050722 There is another option. You can sit in the little park on 1st & 1st. Going east, there's a playground with benches on the corner of Houston & Norfolk. Afternoons are fairly quiet at R&D. We were there yesterday at 4 p.m. and were waited on immediately. Tue Sep 22 18:12:12 -0700 2009 5049766 13867 RGR 6 5033411 Eating a lox sandwich while benching? Oy! Wed Sep 16 04:09:58 -0700 2009 5032955 12618 erica 5 5033050 I would say that is not the native way to do it. Lox sandwiches are a waste to me. To truly appreciate Jewish appetizing at a place like Russ and Daughters, you need to buy the components separately. Buy some Lox, some Sable, maybe some Nova or sturgeon and chopped Herring. Buy bagels somewhere else and go home and construct an Open faced sandwich. The thing about good smoked fish is you want it sliced thin and you want it open faced. The two sides of the bagel block the sensory experience of the fish on your tongue, you get too much bagel. Plus the amount of fish is too much, it sort of congeals in your mouth and you dont get the texture of individual slices. Plus doing it this way enables you to eat two different types of fish on each bagel half. Get some good quality butter, smear away and put Sable on the bottom half and Belly Lox on the top. Doesn't get better than that. Tue Sep 15 19:58:47 -0700 2009 5031566 12484 MVNYC 6 5033157 MVNYC, Amen. When my father-in-law, may his memory be as a blessing, would stay with us while my mother-in-law went out of town to visit the mishpocha, we would have R&D Fed Ex us matjes herring, nova, sable, and pickles to Northern California, to go with the Fed Ex'd bagels from H&H and you never saw such a happy alter kocker in all your life. Chicken liver you get that day from your Aunt Ruth. Accept no substitutes. I have never in all my days had a bagel that was close-faced. Sounds like the goyische kop version of a bagel to me. But what do I know? Tue Sep 15 20:50:47 -0700 2009 5033050 27910 snarkygirl 7 5033422 I'm not a goy, and I've enjoyed both open and close-faced bagels. From a textural and flavor point of view, lox can work in a variety of combinations. P. Wed Sep 16 04:18:13 -0700 2009 5033157 24813 Polecat 6 5033497 Thank you for nailing that debate perfectly. It does need openface for it to work. Textural components are magnified dramatically; BTW the cream cheese at R&D is Ben's cream cheese, local product that has nothing in it but cream and a little salt and clabberer, no thickeners, no drek, nothing. My way is bagel bottom only sesame or plain, cream cheese, a little too much, tomato, one thick perfect slice, salmon belly first choice but many worthy choices generally cured not smoked, topped with thick slice of vidalia onion, wonderful. Had a R&D order that was shipped to Martha's Vineyard about a month ago, No faults, was great, great mislinis on side as well. Wed Sep 16 05:40:50 -0700 2009 5033050 71113 Delucacheesemonger 7 5033503 Delucacheesemonger... I agree! Open faced bagel with a schmear and a single layer of smoked salmon. Mmmmm.... And thanks for the heads up about the cream cheese... One can also procure it at Balducci's in Scarsdale, though the salmon there isn't *quite* the same :) Wed Sep 16 05:47:49 -0700 2009 5033497 149592 iluvcookies 6 5033576 MVNYC, why limit yourself to two different types of fish? when faced with a good bagel, not only do i go halves, i even go halves on the halves! so i can have 4 different experiences, a mix of garnishes, etc. Wed Sep 16 06:30:19 -0700 2009 5033050 12656 bigjeff 7 5034472 I am not going to lie, I can get to four kinds of fish on four bagel halves. Wed Sep 16 11:14:52 -0700 2009 5033576 12484 MVNYC 8 5034483 heh heh, word. Wed Sep 16 11:17:16 -0700 2009 5034472 12656 bigjeff 6 5043159 @ MVNYC (or anyone else who might have an opinion on the matter): So, if I were to get the salmon/sable and cream cheese at Russ & Daughters to construct my own back at my place, where, ideally, should I get the bagels? Also, does R&D sell the onion (i.e. can I ask them to shave me a few slices to take home with my salmon)? Sat Sep 19 21:58:21 -0700 2009 5033050 81131 ulterior epicure 7 5043274 Sure you could get them in Montreal at St Viateur, but the bagels at R&D are fine, way better than fine. You need good hot coffee and lots of it, thus home is the place. Sun Sep 20 01:23:10 -0700 2009 5043159 71113 Delucacheesemonger 7 5044846 The bagels at R&D are good and would be convenient as you are already down there. The. key to any bagel is to get it as fresh as possible, bagel quality deteriorates very quickly. If you can get to a place that bakes their bagels on premise they ideal thing is to get whatever bagel is fresh out of the oven. By the time you get home, it should have cooled off. As to the onion, I suppose they would sell you some shaved onion slices but you could just as easily and more afford ably buy a red onion and shave it thin for your spread. Personally I don't add the onion or tomato as they seem to just get distract from the sublime fishy goodness. Then again I also seem to think the same thing about cream cheese so I understand I am a bit weird. However those I usually eat with do like these things so I make them available. To all those cream cheese devotees I would recommend trying their next sandwich with butter instead. It is really good. More to the point, Jewish appetizing is really the type of thing you buy at the store and then assemble yourself at home. It comes out much better that way and you can really do it how you would prefer. I tend to think of Russ and Daughters more as a store and less as a deli/restaurant. You go in, buy your ingredients and fix em at home. Sun Sep 20 19:15:55 -0700 2009 5043159 12484 MVNYC 8 5044864 Very wise advice, MVNYC. Re: preserving bagels, my mother has always said to never store bagels in plastic bags. Paper is OK for a couple of hours or half a day. After that, you have to eat 'em or freeze 'em. I think Mom is right. I once had a bag of H&H bagels literally deteriorate in an afternoon, I believe from being stored in a plastic bag. Of course, it was also hot outside, so that was a factor too. And I completely agree with you about assembling lox & bagels, etc. and related food at home. To me Russ & Daughters is absolutely a store and not a restaurant. Can't say I'd eat a lox sandwich with butter instead of cream cheese though. To me, the key is the right balance between the cream cheese and lox. I like Temp-tee whipped cream cheese or a thin layer of Philadelphia or something similar. Sun Sep 20 19:29:02 -0700 2009 5044846 255446 Gigi007 9 5044924 Prefer butter w/lox. Lox deserves the stage (essentially) to itself. Less is more regarding other ingredients if the lox or nova is right. Sun Sep 20 19:58:40 -0700 2009 5044864 80872 addictedtolunch 10 5045576 Right, the Lox deserves the stage. To those who find Lox with butter revolting, I ask how different is cream cheese from lox in terms of how they are made? Basically both are churned cream only the cream cheese requires fillers to maintain its consistency. Secondly if you were cooking a fish, which goes better cream cheese or butter. Butter and fish have a natural affinity towards one another. The cream cheese overwhelms the lox to me, sweet butter compliments it. Then when it comes to sable? The cream cheese completely destroys the delicate smoky fish flavour. Mon Sep 21 07:17:59 -0700 2009 5044924 12484 MVNYC 11 5046024 I make a fresh salmon wrapped in phyllo with a scallion and cream cheese filling that is really tasty. For me, it's inbread salmon/cream cheese, even when broiling I don't use butter on salmon, I use olive oil, soy sauce anything but butter. Mon Sep 21 09:32:35 -0700 2009 5045576 10147 michele cindy 11 5046512 @ MVNYC: Good logic. I guess I need the slight tang from the cream cheese to check the fat in the salmon? Butter is just too cloying to me. I agree that butter - melted, cooked, browned - and fish is a wonderful combination. But in semi-solid form, I just can't abide the coupling. But, to each his own. It's what makes this world go around (or, at least, interesting). Mon Sep 21 11:56:47 -0700 2009 5045576 81131 ulterior epicure 8 5045094 Right, right - I never thought of R&D as anything but a marketplace. I do like the taste of cream cheese and onions with my salmon and carbs. Personally, the combination of butter with cold cuts (whether fish or meat) is absolutely repulsive; since childhood, it has repeatedly invoked the gag response. But, I realize I many be strange in this respect. Sun Sep 20 21:48:03 -0700 2009 5044846 81131 ulterior epicure 9 5045098 I don't think you're strange, u.e. I have the same thoughts about butter w/ fish or meat on a sandwich. It doesn't appeal to me at all. Sun Sep 20 21:50:49 -0700 2009 5045094 255446 Gigi007 9 5045130 u.e., I'm with you about butter with cold cuts. Feh! With smoked salmon, it's always cream cheese (my preferred bread product on which to place them is pumpernickle). I always plate smoked white fish, sable, and kippered salmon rather than putting them into a sandwich, but I do put butter on the accompanying bagel, bialy, or pumpernickle bread. And, btw, with reference to R&D, "small shop" is a better description rather than "marketplace," which, to me, connotes a place that's fairly large. Sun Sep 20 22:19:52 -0700 2009 5045094 13867 RGR 10 5045398 I prefer scallion cream cheese with salmon over onions. It's more subtle. As for butter, I agree feh! (reminds me of a story... many years ago I once had a 20.00 bet that "feh" was a real word...then that , same night coincedentally on MASH Hawkeye uttered the word "feh"! And I won the bet. Mon Sep 21 05:51:00 -0700 2009 5045130 10147 michele cindy 10 5046527 @ RGR, when I was a wee tot, my ma buttered my ham sandwiches, and it made my stomach churn. When in France, I always have to make sure I ask for my baguettes unbuttered. Once, I ordered a simple Brie baguette, and it came generously buttered; it was repulsive to me. Mon Sep 21 12:01:19 -0700 2009 5045130 81131 ulterior epicure 11 5047106 my favorite bagel sandwich is a poppy seed bagel, cream cheese, and baken salmon and lox on one side and baked salmon and sturgeon on the other, eaten open faced of course. looking forward to it for break the fast. Mon Sep 21 14:50:35 -0700 2009 5046527 10672 jon 1 5032305 Please correct me if I am wrong. R&D does not make their own bagels. I do have reason to belive they are made by Kossars on Grand. Then tend to be a bit chewy for my taste. BUT: all of the smoked/pickled fish and cream cheese spreads are outstanding. I have gotten "sammiches" on their bagels and have struggled with it. My suggestion: buy the fixin's for the bagel sammich at R&D and the bagel at Essa Bagel or any of the other great bagel bakeries noted on this site. Tue Sep 15 14:26:28 -0700 2009 5011814 259524 Motosport 2 5033188 Uh, no, the bagels at the Russes are not from Kossars. I recently asked and was told that the bagels are specially made for them in Brooklyn. However, the bialys are from Kossar's. Tue Sep 15 21:12:05 -0700 2009 5032305 13867 RGR 3 5033900 AH! That explains why I saw big brown paper bags at Kossars with R&D written on them. I assumed, and you know what they say about that. BTW: I love Kossars Bialys. Wed Sep 16 08:29:52 -0700 2009 5033188 259524 Motosport 1 5033864 I love the bagels at R&D -- as well as some other places, including E.A.T., Gourmet Garage -- though you definitely need your own teeth to bite them ;)...the best way to ruin a great smoked salmon sandwich (which I also prefer open-faced) is on an ess-a-bagel or similar bready, inflated bagel. Way too much bread to smoked fish ratio. R&D's are the real thing and as close as I can imagine to the chewy Russian-style bagels my Ukrainian grandfather used to bring me from the Bronx. Wed Sep 16 08:19:31 -0700 2009 5011814 110897 City Kid 1 5114895 Just wanted to add a note. Russ & Daughters will do an open faced sandwich for you. You can also use this as an option to get different kinds of fish. This weekend I got a poppy seed with half sable and half belly lox. They wrapped it up well and it kept fine til I got to the best place to eat it, DBA on First ave and 2nd Street. DBA is a good beer and spirits bar a couple of blocks away that allows you to bring in food. Both fish paired up very well with a Jever Pils. As the weather gets colder this is a good spot to grab an afternoon lunch and quality brew. Also the quality of bagel there was actually very good. It was the old school chewy style of NYC bagel so the original poster may just be unaccostomed to this. If you are expecting the airy type of bagel you will be dissapointed. Mon Oct 19 12:42:06 -0700 2009 5011814 12484 MVNYC 2 5115995 FYI, dba serves free bagels & lox on Sundays (or at least they did the last time I was in there on a Sunday). It's not not R&D caliber, but still, free! Mon Oct 19 19:17:11 -0700 2009 5114895 13722 small h