644258 Wed Aug 12 19:40:29 -0700 2009 66 35 Beer 0 4941836 So, what's the style of beer you default to? Sure, you branch out, you dabble in dry-hopped IPAs or Flanders ales or barrel-aged vintage porters, you have green-bottle-beer phases, and everybody drinks Oktoberfest when it's in season. But what's the style that makes you smack your lips and say, "That hits the spot!"? And what's the beer you think best represents that style you keep coming back to? Wed Aug 12 19:40:29 -0700 2009 256229 LauraGrace 1 4942024 Interesting question. Kind of a toss-up for me between a rich export lager like Ayinger Jahrhundert, or a dry, tart gueuze like Girardin or Oud Beersel. Wed Aug 12 20:54:20 -0700 2009 4941836 10809 Josh 2 4942417 I love a sour beer, but everyday I always gravitate back to Bigfoot, Arrogant Bastard, Gordon. How boring, in today's imperial world ... having said that, I recall one day ordering Arrogant Bastard in a warm bar, and it just wasn't the right beer for a hot, sticky day (doh!). I struggled through it, then switched to something I rarely order: Pilsner Urquell. Worked much better. Thu Aug 13 05:02:12 -0700 2009 4942024 10998 Jim Dorsch 1 4942518 IPA. I used to be more into German lagers and altbier and the major Belgian styles, but in the last 3-4 years just can't shake the hop jones. More than half the beer I brew is an IPA of some kind and I have been known to walk out of bars/brewpubs without ordering or just order soda if they don't have a good IPA on tap. Thu Aug 13 06:01:19 -0700 2009 4941836 12014 LStaff 2 4942524 Same here. Call me one-dimensional, but I need the hop, man ... I respect the daylights out of many Belgian beers, and lots of others, but keep going back to the hop (balanced by really good malt). Thu Aug 13 06:04:12 -0700 2009 4942518 10998 Jim Dorsch 1 4942537 Belgian-style Tripels and Strong Goldens, British Brown Ales and Porters. When I am truely stuck or am not in the mood for something new, I will reach for Fin du Monde, Duvel, Sam Smith Nut Brown and JW Lees Manchester Star. Give me those four any day of the week and I am a happy camper. Fourtunately, three of the above four are fairly easy to find, two are practically common. Thu Aug 13 06:08:43 -0700 2009 4941836 12758 Ernie Diamond 2 4942585 Manchester Star is a fantastic beer. Wish I could find it more easily. Thu Aug 13 06:22:20 -0700 2009 4942537 10809 Josh 3 4942762 Call a local retailers and offer to buy a case. Worked for me. They stock it regularly now and at $5 per bottle as compared to $8 at the spot where I was getting it before. It is very hard to find, though. Happily, it does well in the bottle. Thu Aug 13 07:21:23 -0700 2009 4942585 12758 Ernie Diamond 1 4942581 a toss-up between hefeweizen and ungespundet/keller. Thu Aug 13 06:21:32 -0700 2009 4941836 292258 Pata_Negra 1 4943558 there's so much good and interesting beer out there, I just go with whatever looks good at the time or is on sale, as long as it's quality Thu Aug 13 10:34:25 -0700 2009 4941836 74192 chuckl 1 4943588 Probably a truly well done Pilsner. Maybe a Kolsch. Basically a truly good German Lager (or maybe an English Mild). In the past 20 years Ive gone through the full cycle from crap beer to better lagers and wheats to standard pale ales, reds and browns to stouts and IPA's to the fully extreme stuff (double IPA's, Quads, Sours, Barely Wines, Imperial Stouts, Utopias, etc.). There was a time I was all about the hops in a silly testosterone kind of way and only hops would do but I have found I have outgrown that phase and surprisingly come back around full circle to the basics: good lagers and mild ales. German and Czech Pilsners. Sublime wheats. English session bitters and milds. Mmmm.... Dont get me wrong sometimes I really want a hoppy beer or a nice intense sour or a good solid imperial stout (really depends on the season) but if I had to pick ONE... yeah it would have to be a good lager. I am simply a victim of the wanderings of my own tastes... Thu Aug 13 10:42:03 -0700 2009 4941836 238787 Insidious Rex 2 4943638 That is awesome. Very cool journey. I started out with Dundee's brown ale, if you can believe it, and will forever be indebted to its inoffensive mediocrity. It was my "gateway" beer. You know, the true lager is the "little girl who had a little curl" of the beer world. When it is good, it is very, VERY good, but when it is bad, it's HORRID. Some of my most satisfying beer experiences have involved drinking a great lager, exhausted, midafternoon, in a crowded airport bar thousands of miles from home. I'd love to hear more! :) Thu Aug 13 10:55:24 -0700 2009 4943588 256229 LauraGrace 3 4948477 I love the time and place theory of beer. A topic that has crept into other threads on this board. I am not sure there is any other substance whose enjoyment can be so radically impacted by factors so wholly unrelated to taste. (I swear, someday I'll really start the anecdotal "best beer" thread I have conceived . . .) To the extent that I can read this thread to be asking "What beer always tastes good to you?" - I'll go with a nicely balanced pale ale. Ahhh, the glorious diversity of beer ! Sat Aug 15 07:19:36 -0700 2009 4943638 141889 MGZ 4 4948877 Hmm, not sure I really agree with you here. I can understand not being in the mood for a particular type of beer based on occasion and weather, but I don't think that one's ability to perceive flavor and quality is impacted by those factors. Sat Aug 15 10:37:21 -0700 2009 4948477 10809 Josh 2 4944106 To a certain extent the love affair with hops reminds me of a similar phenomenon with red wine where it was all about the tanins and we'd end up with these very tannic, very heavy one-dimensional wines. Balance is the key in my opinion, in both wines and beers. Thu Aug 13 13:02:57 -0700 2009 4943588 74192 chuckl 3 4944585 The big wine thing seems to be driven by Parker; I'm not sure what the driver is with hoppy, gigantic beers. Thu Aug 13 15:22:43 -0700 2009 4944106 10998 Jim Dorsch 4 4945163 I've wondered the same thing. The beer specialty guy at my local Whole Foods said that cramming hops into a beer and bragging about it is like a chef cramming salt into his food and bragging about it. Hops add nuance and freshness and aroma to a beer, but to make them the absolute only taste is strange. Maybe a hop-head can shine some light on this confusion? I'm a malt girl myself. ;) Thu Aug 13 19:15:17 -0700 2009 4944585 256229 LauraGrace 5 4946881 I don't think the salt thing is a fair comparison. Salt is a flavor enhancer, not the main flavor itself in dishes. Hops (along with malt and alcohol/yeast characteristics) are a main flavoring component in beer. I think maybe a comparison to garlic is more accurate - in some dishes, too much is overdone, in others, alot of garlic is required. I tend to think of IPA's the same as garlic soup - what's the point if garlic (or hops) isn't in the forefront of flavor? Tastes are subjective and people like what they like, not everyone has to agree or even understand each other's tastes - there are many styles of beer and breweries to choose from if something isn't to your liking. Fri Aug 14 12:06:13 -0700 2009 4945163 12014 LStaff 6 4947307 I'm going to disagree. If we think about the history of beer, it existed for a long time before hops came into the picture. Brewers always tried to find flavoring methods for countering malt sweetness. Looked at that way, highly assertive hopping is going beyond the point of balancing the malt sweetness. I think the salt comparison is valid. Fri Aug 14 14:59:35 -0700 2009 4946881 10809 Josh 7 4947902 Hops have purposes other than countering sweetness. They have their own flavors, and some people really like them. Along with this comes a lot of bitterness, of course, but I think a person could differentiate between a big beer that skillfully intertwines malt sweetness and flavor along with hop bitterness and flavor, and a beer whose sole purpose is to club the drinker over the head with as many IBUs as possible. Fri Aug 14 19:53:50 -0700 2009 4947307 10998 Jim Dorsch 8 4948186 Sure, obviously hops have other purposes. My point was simply that excessive attention focused on that one ingredient does seem to be akin to a chef boasting about how much <fill in the blank> they use. Fri Aug 14 23:33:45 -0700 2009 4947902 10809 Josh 8 4948813 "a beer whose sole purpose is to club the drinker over the head with as many IBUs as possible." See, THOSE are the ones I don't get. This isn't just a "but I don't LIKE hops, whine whine whine" thing, it's a genuine confusion -- why would a person drink a beer that tastes like tea made from hops? Why would that beer be popular? Why would a brewer make a beer that seems like its only purpose is to cram as many hops into a beer as possible, without regard for flavor, even the good aromas and flavors that hops lend to a beer? I think the skillful use of hops is a great thing. One of the reasons I tend to prefer good American unfiltered wheat beers to German hefeweizens is that I think the addition of a little hoppiness improves what can sometimes (if handled poorly) be an insipid, flat style. I even appreciate the bright herbal and floral flavors of a good IPA! I'm not opposed to dry-hopping! But in much the same way that I wouldn't want a beer to be crammed full of caramelized sugar or dark malt to the exclusion of all other flavor enhancers, I don't get why unbalanced hop-bombs with no variety of flavors are even made. Eh. To each his own. Sat Aug 15 10:04:31 -0700 2009 4947902 256229 LauraGrace 9 4952890 >why would a person drink a beer that tastes like tea made from hops? Because he/she enjoys the flavor/experience. >Why would that beer be popular? Because many enjoy the flavor/experience. >Why would a brewer make a beer that seems like its only purpose is to cram as many hops into a beer as possible See previous answers. Just like many like their coffee black and think any additions are a crime against humanity, and some can't drink it without milk and sugar - everyone has their preference. Its the people who think every beer should be made to their personal preference, and can't come to grips that everyone else is not like them, is what I don't get. Mon Aug 17 09:34:33 -0700 2009 4948813 12014 LStaff 10 4953057 I don't know, some things are just a crime though. A guy asked me once would it be wrong for him to bring tabasco sauce to a French restaurant because, well that's what he likes on his food. I mean it isn't "wrong" but it is, yah know? Mon Aug 17 10:19:28 -0700 2009 4952890 26180 Chinon00 11 4953364 He was clearly doing it wrong. Mon Aug 17 11:51:36 -0700 2009 4953057 10809 Josh 6 4953371 I like the garlic analogy. I think thats spot on. Garlic has a reputation for being intense and easily overwhelming, even sometimes abrasive but that doesnt mean it isnt really good in the right dishes. And certainly, just like hops, some people cant get enough of it. But the idea of adding an obscene amount of it into a dish seems fairly silly because its almost impossible to truly appreciate the food anymore. In the same way, you cant turn around now without getting hit over the head with someone’s mediocre double IPA. But the hop heads love them all because, well, they taste like hops! But like with too much garlic, too much hops is a bit of a cheat in my opinion that allows you to avoid most issues with the actual beer itself since the BEER aspect of the beer is completely overwhelmed by the taste of the hops. Just as the ingredients and balance and cooking strategy behind a good Bolognese can be overwhelmed and lost by putting way too much garlic in it. But by gum it sure tastes like garlic! Woohoo! Now there was a time when I could NOT get enough garlic/hops in my food/beer. But now I appreciate a refinement of said food products, a balancing of ingredients to create something better then the sum of its parts. Although yeah there are days when I just want a hop bomb. But its not a constant thing anymore. And I now realize there are some GOOD hop bombs and many mediocre ones. Some days Ill be at work and out of no where Ill get this piney resiny phantom cascade or simcoe like taste suddenly come into my mouth and its all I can do not to drool from the scrumptiousness of it. Invariably only a double IPA can satisfy that "hop tooth" before the taste goes away. Other days just the thought of a big hoppy beer just makes my tongue tired. Laura, as for the phenomenon of why some hopheads cant get enough hops I think Vinnie Cilurzo said it best: http://www.russianriverbrewing.com/LTS/. I know this was true for me at the height of my addiction. Mon Aug 17 11:53:11 -0700 2009 4946881 238787 Insidious Rex 7 4953600 I love extremely hoppy beers, but one of the brewers (I forget which one) said something to the effect that anyone can dump hops in a kettle but it takes skill to make a well balanced double IPA. I agree with that 100%. Mon Aug 17 13:03:00 -0700 2009 4953371 163246 tofuburrito 8 4953673 Could you provide us examples (in your opinion) of double IPAs where the brewer "dump[ed] hops in a kettle" versus brewing a well balanced DIPA? Thanks Mon Aug 17 13:23:00 -0700 2009 4953600 26180 Chinon00 9 4955495 I believe the comment was in reference to home brewing. As to commercially available examples, we all have our personal preferences and even though it seems to be universally praised (in fact it won the IPA championship in 2008) I find Green Flash lacking in any flavor other than hops. I don't mean to badmouth them, I respect the brewery and most people love Green Flash, it just hits me as one dimensional. Tue Aug 18 07:18:12 -0700 2009 4953673 163246 tofuburrito 8 4955367 Most beer lovers think its easy just to put more hops in - and in itself, very easy. But to balance out the malt, alcohol, bitterness, and hop flavor into something you want to drink over and over again is a skill that takes experience. Most IPA's and DIPA's out there may be full flavored and quite delicious in small samples, but very few make me want to drink pint after pint .. Tue Aug 18 06:38:28 -0700 2009 4953600 12014 LStaff 9 4957802 I think I could drink Pliny the Elder all night. As a matter of fact, I have. There's no questioning the hops, but the balance and clean taste keeps me coming back for more. Tue Aug 18 19:35:39 -0700 2009 4955367 74192 chuckl 10 4957822 "I think I could drink Pliny the Elder all night. As a matter of fact, I have." At 8% abv I hope that weren't driving. Tue Aug 18 19:45:07 -0700 2009 4957802 26180 Chinon00 11 4957849 I drink a bunch of water afterward and BART is my designated driver, but thanks for asking Tue Aug 18 19:59:57 -0700 2009 4957822 74192 chuckl 5 4947625 I suspect that there may be a physiological difference in how people perceive bitterness in beer (and probably in anything else) Basically, no beer ever tastes 'too bitter' to me, and believe me, I've had plenty of monster hop bombs. When I don't like a double IPA, it's more likely to be too sweet for me than too bitter. I also enjoy many moderately hopped beers, and I appreciate malt and yeast as much as anyone; I even appreciate balance and composition in a beer. I just don't generally find excessive bitterness a flaw, which makes me think that I (and many other hopheads) just have a low sensitivity to bitterness. Fri Aug 14 17:24:46 -0700 2009 4945163 149239 juantanamera 6 4948817 Fascinating reply. I know so-called "super-tasters" have a very HIGH sensitivity to bitterness (I am NOT a super-taster, fortunately), so it stands to reason that some people might have a particularly LOW sensitivity to bitterness. Sat Aug 15 10:06:08 -0700 2009 4947625 256229 LauraGrace 1 4944644 For me it's always been Porters and Stouts (and, to a lesser extent, Schwartzbiers)- I never stray too far from one. The ones I'll never tire of are Anchor Porter (still tops in my book) and Sierra Nevada Stout (although I must admit that if I were on the west coast the SN might be replaced by Deschutes Obsidian or Pike XXXXX). In fact, I started to homebrew back in '92 (in large part) so that I would have steady access to fresh, draught West Coast-Style Stout here in the NYC area. Thu Aug 13 15:42:52 -0700 2009 4941836 12713 TongoRad 2 4944712 Deschutes has a Porter floating around lately that's called Black Butte, I think. I'm not sure if they bottled it or it's only available on tap. Very good and well worth seeking out Thu Aug 13 16:05:15 -0700 2009 4944644 74192 chuckl 3 4945187 Overall I'd say that Deschutes is pretty damn awesome- I've thoroughly enjoyed their beers from the brewery in Bend- to brewers' festivals- to pubs in the Portland area- to the times when I used to have their beer shipped to me by the case- to trades for their seasonal stuff. I'd even go so far as saying that their chatter-to-overall quality ratio is shockingly low. And here comes the 'but'...but, for whatever reason, the Black Butte just always seemed to get overshadowed by the other beers in their lineup as well as my favorite porters. Then again, the last time I had a Black Butte, Catamount was still in business, and their Porter was most definitely 'da bomb'. That was, obviously, a while ago- I'd definitely love to try it again. Thu Aug 13 19:21:23 -0700 2009 4944712 12713 TongoRad 3 4946845 I was told by a Deschutes rep that they brew/sell more porter than any other brewery in the US. Fri Aug 14 11:53:30 -0700 2009 4944712 12014 LStaff 4 4947033 Black Butte was one of my crossovers and it has a special place in my heart. If I had to choose a default my guess is that my yearly purchase records would indicate Avant Garde or Old Rasputin. Fri Aug 14 13:10:05 -0700 2009 4946845 163246 tofuburrito 1 4947696 Pils Fri Aug 14 18:01:15 -0700 2009 4941836 26180 Chinon00 1 4948053 I was always an IPA guy, because one of the first beers I bought regularly in the early 70's was an IPA (the other was a Bock). These days, my go to is usually a malty Scotch Ale, a malty and bitter Barleywine, or a special Bitter, Brit style. Mostly brewed at home, but I am definitely a Bigfoot fan and I love Fuller's (almost anything they make). Fri Aug 14 21:17:12 -0700 2009 4941836 116047 The Professor 2 4948826 Oh, I LUURRVE Scotch Ales. I'm going through a phase right now. I can get my hands on Founders' Dirty Bastard which is outstanding, but I can't get Old Chub in Kentucky -- at least not that I've seen. Sat Aug 15 10:08:39 -0700 2009 4948053 256229 LauraGrace 3 4948880 You might like St. Andrews ale if you can find it. It's brewed by Belhaven, and is made with peat-smoked Scotch whisky malt. Sat Aug 15 10:38:49 -0700 2009 4948826 10809 Josh 1 4950884 Stout, preferably something truly rich, black, & thick, with plenty of malt AND hops. Something like Ipswich Oatmeal, though I also really like Rogue Shakespeare. Marin Brewing's San Quentin Breakout Stout and McAuslan's St. Ambroise are also favorites. Sun Aug 16 12:28:10 -0700 2009 4941836 90936 Kenji 2 4951835 I'm going to have to see if I can find some of those. I go back and forth with stouts -- some of them are delightful, and some of them are hideous... watery, flavorless, burnt-tasting. *shudder* But a good one... mmmmm... Sun Aug 16 20:27:32 -0700 2009 4950884 256229 LauraGrace 3 4954020 Would your "hideous stout" with the wateriness and burnt taste be Guinness, by any chance? I like stouts that are full-bodied, and packed with dark chocolate and strong dark coffee flavors. The ones I listed have these qualities. Bear Republic's imperial stout -- "Big Black Bear," or some such -- also does, but I haven't encountered it outside of CA. Mon Aug 17 15:15:30 -0700 2009 4951835 90936 Kenji 4 4955521 Ha! Yes, while Guinness is lovely on tap in Ireland, when it's from a bottle in the US, it's pretty dire, isn't it? ;) If I'm going to have an Irish or English-style stout, I'll have Schlafly's or Young's, thanks. But imperial stout... that is a style to return to again and again. Yum!! Tue Aug 18 07:25:01 -0700 2009 4954020 256229 LauraGrace 5 4957783 Just remember that besides the ocean between Guinness experiences, Draught Guinness and bottled Guinness are two very different beers. The Draught version is lighter in body and lower in alcohol, while the bottled version is somewhat stronger and slightly fuller bodied... and for the USA market, it's made in Canada (and they are doing a fairly good job of it). The funny thing is that the bottled version (even Canada brewed) is probably at least a bit closer to what Guinness actually tasted like years ago. But then again, who knows...they evidently don't hold the formula all that sacred since like most other beers on both sides of the Atlantic, it has certainly been modified over the years. Tue Aug 18 19:28:07 -0700 2009 4955521 116047 The Professor 6 4957901 Depends on whether LauraGrace refers to draft in bottle or extra stout. Tue Aug 18 20:19:30 -0700 2009 4957783 10998 Jim Dorsch 7 4959675 ahhh...right...I totally forgot about the draft-in-bottle!! Wed Aug 19 12:02:57 -0700 2009 4957901 116047 The Professor 1 4951975 For me, its a nice and simple porter. Not an imperial porter, just a good porter. I absolutely love Black Butte Porter. It's somewhat sessionable (especially in today's extreme beer world) and full of flavor. Sun Aug 16 21:56:53 -0700 2009 4941836 27514 shellshock24 2 4952113 If you have not tried it before, I highly recommend Great Lakes Edmund Fitzgerald Porter. It's by far my favorite porter, in my opinion quite a bit better than Black Butte, which I also think is a nice porter. Mon Aug 17 01:07:50 -0700 2009 4951975 149239 juantanamera 3 4952553 On a trip to Cleveland I was blown away by the Ed Fitz porter. I had it at Alice Cooper's restaurant and the next night I went to the Great Lakes brewpub. I was planning to do tasters of everything but ended up unable to resist the porter and stuck with it. Mon Aug 17 07:46:16 -0700 2009 4952113 163246 tofuburrito 1 4957956 I love pale ales and IPAs. I also love other well made ales, lagers, wheat beers, stouts, porters, etc. What I do not like is beer that has no complexity. That's an issue I find with many lagers out there. When I find a good lager, I'll return to it. A couple of my current summer favorites and easily available are Bell's Two Hearted, Heavy Seas Loose Cannon, and Pyramid Thunderhead. My friends own Blue Mountain Brewery and their Full Nelson Pale Ale is amazing. Their Rockfish Wheat is a wheat beer that I can drink any time. When their various stouts come available, I practically need to set up a tent on the lawn outside! Tue Aug 18 20:48:38 -0700 2009 4941836 76025 mojoeater 2 4959317 " What I do not like is beer that has no complexity. That's an issue I find with many lagers out there. When I find a good lager, I'll return to it." TIME TO EDUCATE! Now, when you say "lager" are you referring to: Doppelbock Bock Marzen Pils Helles lager Scwartzbier Rauchbier . . . I think I know what you mean but I just wanted to make a point that lager comes in many hues and flavors. Thanks Wed Aug 19 10:22:59 -0700 2009 4957956 26180 Chinon00 3 4959347 There is some truth to the statement that lagers are less complex than ales, but that doesn't mean lager beers are worse (or better). It's just what they are. I don't drink a lot of lager beer, but I find them quite good at the source. In my experience, they easily tire during a long journey from brewery to glass, at least when the brewery is in Europe and the glass is in America. But a lager can be truly phenomenal when fresh, showcasing its fresh-malt character, for example. Wed Aug 19 10:33:36 -0700 2009 4959317 10998 Jim Dorsch 4 4960325 A RELATIVE statement about lager complexity wasn’t made (not that I would agree with that either). What was stated was: "What I do not like is beer that has no complexity. That's an issue I find with many lagers out there." And I wholeheartedly disagree that lagers, and particularly those with dramatic malt structure (i.e. bock, maibock, doppelbock) are lacking complexity. Wed Aug 19 15:06:43 -0700 2009 4959347 26180 Chinon00 5 4960340 Good grief. I said "many" lagers lack complexity. Certainly not all. There are many delicious lagers out there, especially those styles mentioned above. Wed Aug 19 15:12:38 -0700 2009 4960325 76025 mojoeater 6 4960711 But we know which specific "lagers" that one might be talking about when they say that they have "no complexity". Wouldn't it be easy enough to localize on bad versions of pilsner or Euro lagers (which is most likely what one would be referring to)? Why not make it clear that you weren't including "delicious" lagers as well? Wed Aug 19 17:42:59 -0700 2009 4960340 26180 Chinon00 7 4960988 It's pretty subjective. Everyone will taste any of them differently. "Delicious" to one person coulod be "heinous" to another. There can never really be a "standard". Trying to make sense of individual tastebuds is almost an exercise in futility. Wed Aug 19 19:30:34 -0700 2009 4960711 116047 The Professor 8 4961018 Is it your contention that it would be accurate for an individual to conclude that Celebrator Doppelbock for example has little to no complexity? Wed Aug 19 19:45:47 -0700 2009 4960988 26180 Chinon00 9 4961338 Well I would certainly never say so, and I've never heard anyone say anything of the sort, but all the same it would not surprise me at all if someone somewhere _did_ conclude that. If that's what they perceive, that's what they perceive (I would, however, feel quite sorry for such an individual, apparently born without taste buds LOL). After all, some people rave about Belgian beer; others liken it to beer 'gone bad' and are repelled by it. Who's to say who is right? People like what they like, and taste what they taste. And no two people will taste exactly the same thing. Wed Aug 19 22:49:35 -0700 2009 4961018 116047 The Professor 10 4961381 Oh I believe that people do and have the right to find flavors not to their liking and repulsive even. But that is different from concluding that a food or beverage has no complexity. I would certainly get someone thinking that Celebrator is awful tasting (I've seen it). But for them to conclude as well that it wasn't complex defies all logic or means that when applied to beer they don't understand its meaning. And I'm not buying this notion that some people can bite into a banana and taste an apple for example. I will buy that some can pick up particular flavors in beer or wine (i.e. oak, minerality) say that others cannot. But that it isn't a function of individual taste buds but rather of familiarity and practice (honing your craft). We all have basically the same wiring and the capability to perceive the same things but we all won't LIKE the same things. Wed Aug 19 23:41:15 -0700 2009 4961338 26180 Chinon00 11 4961459 People do have different abilities to taste, a prime example being sensitivity to diacetyl. Thu Aug 20 02:57:37 -0700 2009 4961381 10998 Jim Dorsch 3 4959488 The problem is that in the US, the term lager has been largely co-opted by the tasteless macro brewers for the past, oh, 75 years or so. And those folks who are now venturing beyond that limited world tend to react negatively when talking about the “lagers” they used to drink before they got a clue and discovered “good” beer. This is certainly an understandable phenomenon. It means people are starting to think about their choices instead of being mindless zombies to the major macro brewers. BUT the negative aspect of this way of thinking is that these folks develop a bias against ALL lagers at first on a psychological level because at this point to them lager = Budweiser, and than on a taste level when their palette quickly adapts and relishes very flavorful ales of every extreme Suddenly lagers aren’t “enough” and they become the whipping boy. Granted, I too find this way of thinking mindboggling every time I open up a Spaten Optimator, but I have found that to be the common notion these days. I think the micro industry bears as much of the fault for this phenomenon as the macro industry. Most American breweries just don’t emphasize lagers nearly as much as they do ales. Is it a tank space thing? Or just the nature of our current craft culture where the most extreme stuff is put on the highest pedestal? Not sure. But it seems like lagers tend to be token in way too many breweries and brewpubs in this country where IF they are brewed they are often purposefully brewed and presented as a stepping off point from macros rather than as a good solid beer in itself. And that’s fine. But we need more than that. We’ll probably never have the cornucopia of lager choices you have in Germany, but it would be nice to go to your average brew pub and see that lagers are treated with as much seriousness and passion as the ales. And thats my little lager rant... Wed Aug 19 11:12:04 -0700 2009 4959317 238787 Insidious Rex 4 4959521 It appears to me that the early micros tended to (loosely) model their beers after British ales, adapting them to conditions at hand. IAC, it's easier and cheaper to make ales, and that was quite important, given the limited capital available to the pioneer micros. Lagers take more time (and hence more tanks), and also require more refrigeration, to name two factors. And if a brewery intends to decoct, then that requires an additional vessel. I suppose that ales have become sort of the standard for small breweries over the last 30+ years. Wed Aug 19 11:20:36 -0700 2009 4959488 10998 Jim Dorsch