644019 Wed Aug 12 05:01:06 -0700 2009 9 49 France 0 4939017 I love France. I lived in Paris for over twenty years. Sadly, one thing I have noticed over the last fifteen years is the decline in the quality of restaurants at least in Paris. I am not writing about the "Michelin Star" league even though I am highly suspicious of the criterias used by this guide. What saddens me most is that you now have to go out of your way in order to have a good meal in Paris. There was a time not so long ago where it was impossible to have a bad meal in the capital. Your local Bistro was great: fresh produce, plat du jour, unbeatable value.... . Nowadays, I would not even consider having a meal in most local bistros and cafes. There were plenty of great "traiteurs" (delicatessens): nowadays they have been taken over by cheap Chinese take-aways or kebab joints... . Even the Japanese Embassy recently complained about the authenticity of many parisian sushi joints... . My view is that Italy on the other hand has managed to maintain standards and even improve them. Am I being overly pessimist? If not, what has happened? A change in spending habits? Middle classes being hit hard over the years? I'd like to read your views! Wed Aug 12 05:01:06 -0700 2009 180200 papillon0970 1 4939274 I'm thirty five, born and raised in Paris, and I never knew a time when it was impossible to have a bad meal in Paris (or elsewhere in France). In fact, random food in cafés, canteens, bakeries has always been generally pretty bad, with industrial crap badly put together and customers complaints received with no understanding. Over the last ten years though, I think bakeries have become overall better (with the exception of the Maubert neighborhood were it was near impossible to have non-delicious bread when I was a teenager). I entirely agree with you that food standards in Italy for instance are much higher. Even your average food in Germany is better than your average food in France. You can eat well and better than well in France, but you do need guidance (though some regions have high standards, esp in the SW and the NE). This situation may have to do with what French gastronomy always was: something exclusive, meant for a higher class and as a social distinction. The historical origins of French gastronomy are thus in court food (and not food court...) -- Taillevent, Vatel, Escoffier, Carême, all prouded themselves on serving the riches and the powerfuls. I don't think it ever changed: food in France is an attribute of social distinction. It does change the fact that the best French food is among the best in the world, as considerable know-how, tradition, economic structures have been developed that way. But I believe the idea of a France where excellent food is everywhere is pure romanticism. This is also an opportunity to clear a misunderstanding that emerges regularly on this forum, about people looking for "chow" options, with the underlying belief that really good food cannot be expensive or fancy. Well, it does not have to, for sure. But it is in France. Conversely, I have yet to have a fine dining experience in the US (with the exception of Ubuntu) that is more compelling than good street food. In Thailand or India, there is no question that the good food is street food and the fancy food is boring as hell and ridiculously expensive and basically serves as a social mirror only (making you feel rich). China and Italy also offer examples of food cultures that are more widespread (though both also have interesting refined food). Wed Aug 12 07:07:31 -0700 2009 4939017 96547 souphie 2 4940273 I agree with your point on the class issue. France is after all the country of "haute". Anyone who fails to understand this will be consistently dissappointed. Whether "haute" is good or bad is another issue.... . I still maintain my point that the quality of the average bistro/cafe meal has gone way down. I did have many, many reasonable meals in the ones in my neighborhood; this was not entirely a myth. Or maybe it is just the area I lived in and still visit that has deteriorated...?! Wed Aug 12 11:30:58 -0700 2009 4939274 180200 papillon0970 3 4940561 Sadly, you are right, at least in the Paris central core. I believe it is all about economics; rents have soared, and the food supplier infrastucture has been pushed out to the periphery. Some may recall the fine fish market that was in the Place du March St. Honore. All gone; so the remaining Mom & Pop bistrots have serious problems if they want fresh ingredients, supplied or distributed in the neighborhood. Today, when you order frites at a local cafe, they will be commercially supplied. "Flash Frozen" has come to Paris. Wed Aug 12 12:46:00 -0700 2009 4940273 19129 Oakglen 4 4940753 Absolutely agree with you about the economics. Another point is maybe (I say this cautiously) the decline in the "purchasing power" of the french middle classes over the last two decades or so. Another issue could be the cost of labor in France? Wed Aug 12 13:35:24 -0700 2009 4940561 180200 papillon0970 1 4939399 I don't think food anywhere is "what it used to be." It certainly isn't in the US. In fact, if you watch the movie "Food, Inc.," you will see very graphically how food production in the US has been totally taken over by huge multi-national corporations and that nutrition and sustenance of the people is completely beside the point! On the other hand, there certainly are lots of places where one can find fine food -- both ready to eat and ready to prepare. Wed Aug 12 07:40:38 -0700 2009 4939017 52499 ChefJune 2 4940167 Food in Italy is not "what it used to be"; in general, it is much much better. I have very closely observed the “restaurant scene” in Northern Italy (Tuscany, north to the lakes, over to the French border, north to the Swiss and Austrian borders and over the extreme northeast in Friuli) during the last 35 years. Regionalism has always been a strongpoint in Italy, but from the late 70s until today, that regionalism has been coupled with a much better concept and respect for food, particularly in trattorie and lets say the equivalent of a Michelin one star in France (although that does not mean much in Italy; I’m only using it as an indication of a certain level of restaurant that would be found in France). There has been a concerted effort in many, many restaurants and trattorie to: enhance the skill in which superb raw ingredients are cooked; to learn how to plate properly; to use only seasonal vegetables; to have more diverse and more appealing menus (not just eight dishes of beef and pork); to have vastly improved wines lists with the majority of wines not “being names” but reflecting the fact that the availability of good wines has increased even more rapidly than food … and most importantly maintaining very reasonable markups on the wines listed; to have wine glasses that are conducive to drinking good wine; to use fish and shellfish more than in the past; to have restaurant service that continues to be informal, but more professional. All of this has had the effect of producing many many restaurants and trattorie where you can get an excellent meal at a very reasonable price. Contrast this to France where those types of restaurants in general (obviously there are tons of exceptions) are in decline. For a very critical eater it is a joy to see. Young people, who have neither “Guides nor stars in their eyes” are achieving something that their parents weren’t able to, and that has made for a vibrant trattorie/restaurant scene that didn’t exist a mere 35 years ago (when the late Franco Colombani started this resurgence at Sole in Maleo). Wed Aug 12 11:00:36 -0700 2009 4939399 195501 allende 2 4940177 Food in Italy is "not what it used to be"; it is much better. I have very closely observed the “restaurant scene” in Northern Italy (Tuscany, north to the lakes, over to the French border, north to the Swiss and Austrian borders and over the extreme northeast in Friuli) during the last 35 years. Regionalism has always been a strongpoint in Italy, but from the late 70s until today, that regionalism has been coupled with a much better concept and respect for food, particularly in trattorie and lets say the equivalent of a Michelin one star in France (although that does not mean much in Italy; I’m only using it as an indication of a certain level of restaurant that would be found in France). There has been a concerted effort in many, many restaurants and trattorie to: enhance the skill in which superb raw ingredients are cooked; to learn how to plate properly; to use only seasonal vegetables; to have more diverse and more appealing menus (not just eight dishes of beef and pork); to have vastly improved wines lists with the majority of wines not “being names” but reflecting the fact that the availability of good wines has increased even more rapidly than food … and most importantly maintaining very reasonable markups on the wines listed; to have wine glasses that are conducive to drinking good wine; to use fish and shellfish more than in the past; to have restaurant service that continues to be informal, but more professional. All of this has had the effect of producing many many restaurants and trattorie where you can get an excellent meal at a very reasonable price. Contrast this to France where those types of restaurants in general (obviously there are tons of exceptions) are in decline. For a very critical eater it is a joy to see. Young people, who have neither “Guides nor stars in their eyes” are achieving something that their parents weren’t able to, and that has made for a vibrant trattorie/restaurant scene that didn’t exist a mere 35 years ago (when the late Franco Colombani started this resurgence at Sole in Maleo). Wed Aug 12 11:03:58 -0700 2009 4939399 195501 allende 1 4954899 Has anyone read the recent book "Au Revoir to All That"? I haven't read it yet, but based on the reviews, it discusses the decline of cuisine (and wine) in France, citing the industrialization of the food industry, economic stagnation, and a general growing disinterest in food quality. It sounds much like what you are describing, papillon. Mon Aug 17 22:10:57 -0700 2009 4939017 33727 patz 1 4955139 I am French, brought up in Paris, and left France to live in Portugal in the 80's... I can tell you that when I retun to France (not specially in Paris), I still find the restaurant standards incredibly higher than in Portugal or Spain (apart from Catalonia or the Basque country). I have had some very good meals in Italy recently, but to say the food is globally better there than in France is really a matter of taste - and luck! However, it seems to me that something changed in the restaurant scene at the time of the "mad cow disease", when most of the ingredients that made-up the base of classic cuisine (ris de veau, rognons, marrow, etc...) were forbidden. These dishes are now difficult to find and seem to have gone out of fashion, together with the "plats en sauce" (daube, blanquette) which required skill and patience from the chefs. Or may-be it is just that we are all getting older! Tue Aug 18 04:51:50 -0700 2009 4939017 179252 monchique