642330 Wed Aug 05 15:06:52 -0700 2009 33 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 4920800 This post is in response to a post on the Boston board from a Chowhound seeking an Angus beef source: Not intending to pile on here, but I believe many consumers believe "angus" represents some kind of premium beef, but when it is touted, as in "certified angus beef" it is purely a marketing ploy. Angus are probably the most prolific beef cattle raised in the U.S. Angus in the U.S. is a breed of cow that is derived from Aberdeen Angus, which originated in Scotland. The other distinction of angus cattle is that they do not have horns. When considering acquiring good beef, I believe it is more useful to focus on the USDA grade assigned, no matter what the breed of cow, and whether or not the cow was grass fed or corn fed. Most beef available for sale in the U.S. is corn fed. If you are willing to pay the money, then grass fed beef that is classified as Prime is what you would strive for. In terms of getting a good deal and good beef, you would probably want to investigate your local, independent butchers, they can tell you where their beef came from and whether it is grass fed or corn fed. One other major factor in the taste of beef, is whether or not it has been aged. There are two aging processes, wet aging or dry aging. Supermarket beef is not aged. (High end steakhouses have their own aging facilities, which helps them control the quality of the process.) I am sure other 'hounds with more knowledge than I might have something to add here. Wed Aug 05 15:06:52 -0700 2009 10059 ChinoWayne 1 4920880 Wayne, I would not presume to have more knowledge than you. Here in SoCal Whole Foods dry ages their choice beef but not their prime. Dry aging is a very expensive process as the butcher must trim off the outer layer of meat during the 21+ day aging process and this results in a loss of weight and hence a higher price. I was surprised that many high end steakhouses use wet aged beef; it pays to ask if the beef is dry aged if the website or the menu does not specify. Wed Aug 05 15:36:55 -0700 2009 4920800 14405 TomSwift 1 4920931 The Angus folks will have you believe that Certifed Angus Beef is equvalent to USDA Prime, but I agree with ChinoWayne. Prime is a designation of quality based on, among other things, the level of marbling, or fine strains of fat in the meat. If CAB meat is equvalent to Prime, why not have it graded and labeled as such? It would command a higher price. Nothing better than a USDA Prime dry-aged steak. Available in only a few restaurants, such as Peter Luger, Keen's, or Bern's in Tampa. Also from purveyors like Lobel, Allen Bros. or Niman Ranch. As an aside, I showed steers as a youngster in school, and in 1966, had the Grand Champion at the West Florida Fat Cattle Show. He was an Angus. The reason I mention this is that, at the time of check in, the show's judge commented on my steer: "This is the only animal I've seen here which would grade Prime." And this was in 1966, before the USDA lowered all the standards. Wed Aug 05 15:55:19 -0700 2009 4920800 12296 steakman55 2 4921032 At our local Fresh Market, the Certified Angus Beef is clearly marked USDA Choice. Wed Aug 05 16:35:25 -0700 2009 4920931 180236 jimingso 3 4921204 In Canada Certified Angus Beef is always graded AAA which is the equivalent of USDA Choice. Some USDA Prime or Canada Prime meat may come from Angus steers, but they are never labelled as such. Wed Aug 05 17:43:22 -0700 2009 4921032 18488 SnackHappy 2 4932201 Your post raised 2 questions in my mind 1) Was the judge a "USDA" inspector? 2) Even though a steer can be raised and fed to a "prime" weight or condition, beef grading is essentially done post mortem isn't it? I apologize in advance for my ignorance, but this post really piqued my curiosity. Sun Aug 09 23:42:34 -0700 2009 4920931 13725 Brandon Nelson 3 4934158 You might be surprised by how well beef judges and buyers for packers could estimate grade back in the 1960s. There were also contests where the steers were judged on the hoof and later on the hook. This kind of feedback really helped sharpen judging skills. Mon Aug 10 14:15:30 -0700 2009 4932201 11364 Eldon Kreider 3 4934397 Good questions. I don't know that the judge was a USDA inspector; I suspect he was not, but he was head of animal husbandry at the University of Florida, so he would qualify as a beef expert. Yes, I believe that the grading is done of a carcass, not a live animal on the hoof. I do think, however, that an educated eye can predict a grade with accuracy. This just stuck in my mind since 1966. I didn't know at the time what it meant until I later started to enjoy USDA Prime beef. And it was even more impressive in my mind (yes, this was my steer of which I was proud) since grading standards were much higher then. Mon Aug 10 15:23:15 -0700 2009 4932201 12296 steakman55 4 4935404 Thanks both of you. Interesting stuff. Mon Aug 10 22:05:14 -0700 2009 4934397 13725 Brandon Nelson 2 4953931 They can tell the grade before the steer is killed? Mon Aug 17 14:38:59 -0700 2009 4920931 28638 phantomdoc 3 4954476 Kinda. Ultrasound. DT Mon Aug 17 18:21:21 -0700 2009 4953931 11291 Davwud 1 4921209 CAB is nothing more than beef that's certified to be from a predominantly Angus cow and meets the programs requirements of being steroid and anti-biotic free. Usually the cows are brangus AFAIK. While I agree the marketing can be hyped a bit I'll take CAB over run of the mill CAFO beef from origins unknown any day assuming they are of equal grade meat. I agree there are many other factors at play. Dry aging, how well the meat was cut etc. CAB dos offer both choice and prime grade steaks. According to their web site less than 8% of angus beef qualifies for CAB and less than 1.5% of that for prime CAB. There's plenty of marketing there. They wouldn't be one of the most dominant brands with out it but I don't think it's a ploy. Consumers just need to know what they are buying. Wed Aug 05 17:44:53 -0700 2009 4920800 253154 Fritter 2 4921305 In the US the requirement to meet the CAB standards is thus: Genotype 51% Angus, or Phenotype 51% Black. Notice the OR. If a carcass from an animal with 51% black fur that is maturity grade A, yield grade 2-4, and grades in the top 2/3 of choice, it is eligible for the CAB program. Period. All CAB have received hormones and antibiotics. Period. I hope you are in a country with different guidelines, because here, all CAB is CAFO beef, and most slightly better beef cattle would qualify for the marketing program. Trust me - I purchase millions of pounds of beef a year. Wed Aug 05 18:28:44 -0700 2009 4921209 102066 almansa 3 4921380 CAB beef is one of the biggest scams in american industrial food. most CAB beef is of the 51% Black variety. this is because the cattle are only 50% angus-- the other 50% is generally holstein. and cafo holstein, at that. the whole dairy/beef industry scenario is evil enough that veganism looks pretty good, by the end of it. you see, holstein dairy cows need to give birth each year in order to lactate, duh. dairy farmers only artificially inseminate the top 10% or so milk producing cows with holstein sperm. so you get about 50% of those cows (5% total) producing viable female calves who will go on to be big milk boxes like their mothers. the male calves are either killed immediately (more milk for people) or see the industry: veal. leaving the other 90% of the holstein dairy cows,& they just need to give birth to something in order to produce milk, male dairy calves being pretty much worthless. so, savvy cafo managers say: let's cross a bony black & white dairy cow breed with purebred black angus-- which virtually guarantees that any calves will be more than 50% black, therefore qualifying all calves, male or female, to be CAB "beef" cattle. feed 'em grain and hormones, butcher 'em young, as soon as they get to marketable weight, and marketing takes care of the rest: the american consumer believes s/he is getting a quality beef product, when in fact it's 1/2 holstein. voila! Wed Aug 05 19:03:10 -0700 2009 4921305 46030 soupkitten 3 4921898 Their web site does indicate they offer a steroid and hormone free product. I've never found any reason to question them any more than any other commercial beef because I think it's a better product than run of the mill CAFO beef. In no way does it compare to many of the higher end beef products (IMO) available but the price here seems to fall in line with that as well. As far as genotype Vs phenotype again the consumer needs to understand what they are buying. That's true no matter what you buy including all other beef brands. CAB is still 51% Angus Vs cattle of 100% unknown breed to the consumer. Period. Their program guide lines exclude cattle that display select dairy or brahman traits. Are those guide lines not set at least in part by the USDA? While what SK has posted sounds "evil" most cattle breeding programs include selection and cross breeding. That same process is occurring with many other brands of beef that cross breed with angus. brama, hereford etc. It's not like cross breeding for profit is a recent development. http://www.certifiedangusbeef.com/brand/natural.php http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELDEV3025674 Thu Aug 06 03:47:46 -0700 2009 4921305 253154 Fritter 4 4921929 I have a friend who's a butcher at one of the premier butchers in TO. I asked him one time if Angus was worth the extra money. He laughed and said "No". If the butchers won't pay extra for it, why would you?? DT Thu Aug 06 04:28:36 -0700 2009 4921898 11291 Davwud 1 4921931 Love this thread. I've been saying for years that Angus beef is just a scam. I'm sure a lot of these FF joints pushing Angus burgers are using choice and charging premium dollars. DT Thu Aug 06 04:29:37 -0700 2009 4920800 11291 Davwud 2 4922034 Angus is not a "grade" of meat. Angus of any brand is available in all of the same USDA grades as other beef including choice or prime. Quite obviously a lot of Butchers carry Angus products. If they didn't there wouldn't be much to talk about. CAB runs about a buck a pound more here but the butchers that carry it cut and handle the meat so much better than some of the other stores it's well worth the premium to me. If you buy meat based on grade or brand alone then your probably wasting money. You might want to take a look at the recent review I started on Costco Prime. Just because meat is graded higher it doesn't automatically mean it's worth the premium. The same goes for CAB or any other brand. Maybe we should consider Niman Ranch beef. They use cross-breed angus as well. http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/642143 Thu Aug 06 05:52:55 -0700 2009 4921931 253154 Fritter 1 4922044 It's just a consumer product brand, that has been brilliantly marketed to great success. It's not a ploy, it's not a scam, it's just a brand marketing campaign. The proof of the success of the campaign is that there are people who believe it signifies premium or better tasting beef than non-branded beef, whether true or not. That's marketing - creating the perception of value and/or quality. No different than branding any other consumer product. Thu Aug 06 05:57:58 -0700 2009 4920800 139725 janniecooks 2 4924182 It's not a consumer product brand, it's a type of cattle. A breed. That's it. Anyone who says it's "better" than any other breed, is misinformed. Thu Aug 06 16:54:46 -0700 2009 4922044 90755 Phurstluv 3 4924389 Angus, Black Angus, Aberdeen Angus or whatever may be breeds of cattle, but Certified Angus Beef® is most definitely a brand. Thu Aug 06 18:01:33 -0700 2009 4924182 18488 SnackHappy 4 4924537 Okay, I get that. But the brand is based on the breed, right? Are you saying any one of those Angus breeds is better than the other, as in the grade of beef they produce? That 's what I'm saying, it's a breed, not a better "brand" as in grade, of beef. Thu Aug 06 18:48:47 -0700 2009 4924389 90755 Phurstluv 5 4924765 It seems to me we are getting into the extremely fine points of what constitutes a "brand" here. CAB is a registered trademark controlled by the Angus Assoc. or whatever it's called. But what they are saying is that it is a certification program, and that any beef so labeled can be counted on to meet certain criteria. I don't think this indicates they would claim their beef is "better" than another hunk of beef that meets those same criteria. As such it may be different from other branded products, such as Perdue chicken, where the Perdue company claims their chicken is better than that of the next guy. Of course, either way, it's true that it's all hype. There is one way in which I think CAB actually is of value to the meat shopper. To be choice CAB, it must be from the higher levels of the USDA choice range. That does give the shopper information that he wouldn't get otherwise, which does suggest there is at least some element that is more than just hype. Thu Aug 06 20:18:30 -0700 2009 4924537 10668 johnb 6 4924784 Good point, and I think I agree. Thu Aug 06 20:27:32 -0700 2009 4924765 90755 Phurstluv 3 4925166 But the marketers have transformed and co-opted the name for cattle breed into a brand name for a consumer product (beef). And I don't disagree that anyone who says it's "better" than any other breed is misinformed. My point was merely that angus beef has been transformed into a consumer brand with brilliant marketing. Name any other branded beef sold in grocery stores. Fri Aug 07 03:53:52 -0700 2009 4924182 139725 janniecooks 4 4925265 "Name any other branded beef sold in grocery stores" Sterling Silver Piedmontese Niman Ranch Coleman Natural Dakota Farms Premium Angus Certified Wagyu Valley Pride Angus Just to name a few not that I dissagree with your point about CAB being a good marketing program. However it is also a good product as are several of the others listed. The real benefit (IMO) is that most of these brands set higher standards than the USDA. Fri Aug 07 05:23:33 -0700 2009 4925166 253154 Fritter 5 4925745 I never said it was a "good" marketing program, I said it was successful because it was brilliant marketing. You got me on a few. I'm not familiar with Sterling Silver, Coleman Natural, Dakota Farms or Valley Pride Angus, but a google search indicates they are producer brand names not cattle breeds like angus is. Piedmontese is a breed, but not a brand name. Certified angus beef is indeed a brand marketing program created to stimulate demand for angus beef. It is a successful marketing program (not the same as "good" which I never said). And none of the "certified" brands can become certified without the approval and cooperation of the USDA. Fri Aug 07 08:18:03 -0700 2009 4925265 139725 janniecooks 6 4925870 CAB is successful. I equate that with "good". If the majority did not agree it would not be successful. However the use of the word "good" Vs "sucessfull" was inadvertant on my part and in essence I was agreeing with you. It shouldn't be a surprise to any one that all brands (not just certified brands) in the US operate under USDA guidelines. However not all brands exceed those guidelines as some of the certified brands do. IMO that's a good thang. As far as brands go every brand I have listed in this thread is registered with the USDA. That includes Piedmontese which is a well recognized brand name owned by the NAPA in the very same way CAB is owned by the AAA. I believe you said; "Name *ANY* other branded beef sold in grocery stores". You did not specify you wanted those brands to be to be breeds as well. How about Certified Hereford? Dakota Farms Black Angus? Premium Black Angus? Valley Pride Angus? Certified Stock Angus? The point simply being that CAB is not alone in this type of marketing. Fri Aug 07 08:52:47 -0700 2009 4925745 253154 Fritter 4 4931903 I just don't see it as a big deal one way or the other. Many if not most non-processed or minimally processed foods we buy in the grocery are branded. What about milk and butter--it's nearly always under a brand name. Is Land o Lakes really better? Perdue or Tyson or many other "brands" of chicken. Lettuce. Carrots. Strawberries. Canned vegetables. The list is endless. Branding is as old as the hills. Is it hype? Call it what you want. Sun Aug 09 19:44:55 -0700 2009 4925166 10668 johnb 1 4922132 Cool thread, thanks to chinowayne and almansa. Thu Aug 06 06:34:10 -0700 2009 4920800 10169 StriperGuy 1 4924966 Certain breeds are known for their marbling ability. It is my understanting that Angus is a breed which rarely produces anything other than USDA Choice graded beef, no matter how it is fed. It would therefore be considered a premium beef, in that almost all of it is in the top 2 grades (although, as I said, almost all of it is in the lower of the top 2 grades). Thu Aug 06 22:27:53 -0700 2009 4920800 23013 ganeden 1 4931646 I tried one of McDonald's new "Angus" burgers recently. Oh well, back to the drawing board! Sun Aug 09 17:36:32 -0700 2009 4920800 180236 jimingso 1 4954305 One of the local chains here sells what they call Angus Pride. While I've had better steaks, I've never had one of these that was bad. My question would be what does the top 20% mean. Check out this link, and let me know what you think. Oh, and has anyone else had this? It's really pretty damn good for a supermarket. http://www.anguspride.com/about Mon Aug 17 17:14:17 -0700 2009 4920800 10737 Bobfrmia 2 4954482 It's a brand name. Probably a decent steak with a premium attached to it. We have a local chain advertising "Certified Angus" beef. "Even AAA isn't good enough for us." It's pretty misleading. DT Mon Aug 17 18:23:36 -0700 2009 4954305 11291 Davwud