639343 Sat Jul 25 07:58:18 -0700 2009 32 41 Cookware 0 4889493 Does anybody own a Blue Star range that comes with a 22,000 BTU burner? I am planning to get one for my apartment in Manhattan but I would have to sacrifice cabinet space if I need to install a hood. Any suggestions? Thanks a lot. Sat Jul 25 07:58:18 -0700 2009 20698 ecs67 1 4889580 Curious -- what do you plan to do for ventilation instead of a hood? Sat Jul 25 08:44:05 -0700 2009 4889493 87837 RGC1982 1 4890127 I have a 30" Blue Star with 3 22,000 BTU burners. I love it. I have a 700 CFM hood above it. I think the hood is a necessity, since the stove creates a lot of heat. Sat Jul 25 14:00:07 -0700 2009 4889493 15172 Michael Rodriguez 2 4893391 How did you pull that off? My impression is that the standard 30-inch has 2 of the SuperNova burners (22k BTU). I also thought that it was OK to reduce the total BTU count (replace a 22k BTU with a 16k BTU) but not to increase it, based on the UL listing. I wouldn't put one in without a hood. The coolest use for the big burner is by pulling off the grate and dropping a wok right into the burner bowl. But I'd never do that without serious ventilation above. Mon Jul 27 06:55:11 -0700 2009 4890127 12626 ted 2 4931735 I'm interested in Blue Star. Have you had ANY problems starting day one? A) Delivery B) Service, parts, labor or warantees C) Performance I am interested in a 48" propane range. We have a large family, 7 kids, so 9 for dinner at least 4 nights per week. I cook and love doing it but I am completely disgusted with the latest programmed, electronic, "I'm going to think for you and cook for you, stick in the probe, I'll decide when your food is ready" versions being manufactured by so many of the 'big' names. In short, I want something that works! I want well engineered, insulated and heat consistent ovens, burners that respond quickly to manual control, and overall a well engineered product, built to last, by a manufacturer who attributes some degree of intelligence/ creativity to the cook. Could Blue Star meet my 'outrageous' demands? Sun Aug 09 18:16:21 -0700 2009 4890127 1100029 Writeher 3 4932463 What a perfect situation for a 48" Blue Star. Dinner for nine? Maybe you'll use two of the 22K Btu, one 15K and the simmer top. Buy a real round-bottom wok, too. You will also need to buy a battery powered timer since Blue Star doesn't have one. We've had our 36" Blue Star for nearly two years now and love it. See photo. Mon Aug 10 06:12:36 -0700 2009 4931735 44591 GeezerGourmet 4 4936533 GeezerGourmet, What a wonderful endorsement. Thank you for the photo too. Your range is beautiful. I AM going to contact Blue Star. The timer ... not a problem, but thank you for mentioning it. The little details are important and often overlooked when considering all the other options. Do you have any recommendations regarding the range hood? Tue Aug 11 09:47:27 -0700 2009 4932463 1100029 Writeher 3 4961086 Love my Bluestar! Got white glove installation so no problems there - this thing works like a charm. I have had it for over a year and no service issues, just insanely good cooking. Incredible range of temperatures, I especially love the Supernova burners (22K BTU) when you drop a wok on. You will never think about vegetables the same way! Wed Aug 19 20:14:00 -0700 2009 4931735 1103023 kingist 1 4932922 I've had my BS 48" top (no ovens) for almost a year. I love it. Pretty basic, no problems. I have 6 burners and a griddle, I sometimes debate if I would have used the grill more or not. I have a 1400CFM independent hood. Mon Aug 10 08:40:41 -0700 2009 4889493 195110 jeffreyem 2 4936572 Jeffreyem: "No Problems" exactly what I hoped to hear! Basic is my preferrance. How would you rate your choice of range hood. Do you have any recommendations? Tue Aug 11 09:54:19 -0700 2009 4932922 1100029 Writeher 3 4937095 http://www.kitchenhood.com/products/professional.htm Very nice hood, I ordered directly from Independent, link above. Tue Aug 11 12:03:09 -0700 2009 4936572 195110 jeffreyem 1 4961205 Own a 30" in a co-op in Flatbush, Brooklyn. Might be the most expensive thing in the apartment. Would not mind if one of the 22Ks were in the back, its' my understanding they come with 2 22K, but I bought it last year. Bought an Ikea (Westinghouse) convertible hood. I am NOT cooking breakfast, lunch and dinner on this thing and we are NOT using the burners at 22K for more than 20 min. at a time (I think the pots would melt), keep that in mind because people do suggest a lot of air movement and that comes at a price, and if you can't vent OUT it does not make sense. OTH: This thing does get hot because the grates are cast iron and the oven is powerful and it doesn't have lots of insulation so the sides warm up - a lot. I can't imagine not having some ventilation over it. See photos, The darker photo has the hood, the other photo was the day it was installed Wed Aug 19 21:18:06 -0700 2009 4889493 10411 fkerm 1 5173096 Still all happy owners? I'm thinking of a 30" RNB, seems like the only range on the market that's similar to the Wolf R304 and doesn't have lots of horror stories regarding reliability, repair, and so on. Wed Nov 11 10:51:48 -0800 2009 4889493 11369 Robert Lauriston 2 5174312 The main thing about BS from the reliability/repair perspective is that it is basically a very simple thing without fancy gimcrackery stuff that a serious cook doesn't want anyway and probably accounts for most of the repairs and problems with other brands. Further, the parts they use that can go wrong, eg the igniter module (I think it's called) they buy off the shelf which means your local gas fix-it guy can easily get it or maybe even has one on his truck. Mine was delivered with some screwups in the orifices. BS shipped me a new set and the local gas guys came out and easily put them on and got it running properly even tho they had never seen one before. No problems since (3 years). Wed Nov 11 17:41:26 -0800 2009 5173096 10668 johnb 3 5176583 Hello everyone, I am looking at the 48 in, and need advise on the hood. Does anyone have the bluestar range hood and how does it compare to others. HELP HELP.. thanks in advance.... Thu Nov 12 13:22:49 -0800 2009 5174312 1124021 theparkerc 1 5178552 I don’t want to be the Bluestar bubble busting boy – but if you search other boards and forums you will find plenty of complaints usually they are: Faulty igniters, Leaking gas (this is troublesome) Very hot oven doors (children, pets, etc being burned) Poor service support from the company Parts on long back-orders. They are a small company and the 22K burner (there used to be only one burner that went this high) on their ranges is nice. I am always perplexed why they simply don’t make all of their burners the same, seems to be a tradition from household ranges. Their grill is a simple cheap gas unit, much like a wal-mart $99 BBQ grill would be. I would expect/demand more, at least an infra-red unit like the Wolfs for the price you are paying. The other issues are that discounts on their products are virtually non-existent. I have gone over how you can get substantial discounts from other manufactures but those posts have been pulled by the overseer’s and I was warned. Bluestar makes the best burners out there, but I don’t think I would cough up that amount of money when there are other options available that have better ovens and grills and very good burners. Fri Nov 13 08:09:33 -0800 2009 4889493 131643 RetiredChef 2 5178730 You can order the burners all the same if you like. I'm skeptical that discounts are available on Wolf ranges given that they're back-ordered for a couple of months. Fri Nov 13 09:08:50 -0800 2009 5178552 11369 Robert Lauriston 3 5180221 Robert, That must be a new development, last year I inquired directly to bluestar and they informed to keep the UL (I think it was that) rating and keep under the residential rating they had to limit the total output of BTU’s of the cooktop surface. They told me that limited them to only one 22K burner – if this has changed or I was given wrong information from the company I apologize. As I stated before discounts on ‘most’ brands can be had if you know how, bluestar has never given any. I detailed it before, but that was too much information and the posts were deleted. CH is a pretty tight forum with many people patrolling the info given. Just think about our economy and understand why there might be a back-order problem? It’s not because these ranges are selling like hot-cakes. ;) Fri Nov 13 18:10:08 -0800 2009 5178730 131643 RetiredChef 4 5181173 The two front burners were both 22K on the model we looked at in the store. According to the guy in the store, Wolf is back-ordered because they expected sales to drop and shut down their second shift. They also cut the price on the R304 from $4500 to $3800. They started the second shift back up. Sat Nov 14 09:16:01 -0800 2009 5180221 11369 Robert Lauriston 2 5178858 Could you kindly link to the "other forums" etc. you mention, or tell us where they are. AFAIK the main place you find much commentary on BlueStar and other brands is Garden Web, and while there is always positive and negative commentary about any and every brand, the Garden Web pro faction on BS seems to outweigh the negative faction by a very large margin, much larger than other brands. Hot oven doors may be a problem. To me, it ought to be a non-issue because the best kitchen configuration is a BS gas cooktop and some brand electric wall oven, but that's just me. Is the insulation on other brands that much better? I don't know. The faulty igniters is an easily fixed problem. Many people posting about BS seem to be unaware that just about all the "moving" or "control" parts are common off the shelf items, easily found and easily installed by any gas service tech. There is no real reason I'm aware of to worry about back-orders on parts, since they are typically available just about anywhere gas range parts are sold. This contrasts with just about every other brand, which typically have sophisticated and troublesome proprietary boards and such. BS is thankfully free of such dodads. I have not heard of any gas leak problems, systemic or otherwise. Is this due to the range itself or the hookup lines? Again, where have you seen this posted? I'd be interested. Fri Nov 13 09:37:55 -0800 2009 5178552 10668 johnb 3 5179775 I agree. I don't doubt that there are problems, but I think that squeaky wheel syndrome magnifies them beyond their actual level of occurrence. Basically there are folks who have problems that don't just post, they post 4-5 times on multiple forums. FWIW, I also agree that THS is the origination of interest in the product. Beyond there and here, I haven't seen a lot of other sites with significant Bluestar traffic. The igniter is an off-the-shelf product (that multiple manufacturers had problems with several years ago). There aren't any proprietary parts in the controls (no PCBs in particular). Otherwise, I wouldn't know b/c we've had zero problems with ours in nearly 4 years. I also agree that the oven door gets hot during use. That said, I don't think it's hugely different from other all-gas ranges out there. And it does have to meet UL, which my understanding is 180F max. That's hot enough to burn you if you hold against it but not so hot that it burns/blisters on contact. And our oven performs just fine, plus it holds a full-size sheet pan, which Wolf doesn't. I honestly don't see the point in having a range with a grill. But I live in a temperate climate with 2 grills and a smoker out back. Whether the Bluestar grill is as cool as the Wolf just doesn't matter to me. I haven't even seen one, but it sounds similar to the Weber, which is kind of the gold standard for basic gas grilling. On the pricing, I just don't buy that Bluestar's pricing is significantly different than all the UMRP pricing policies practiced by Viking, Wolf, et al. In fact, I think you'd get a Bluestar below list if you went with the couple of online vendors out there. Whether the economy has driven the UMRP dealers to offer discounts, I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised. And I wouldn't want the burners any other way than they are on our 36"- 2 big ones for med to large pots (and the wok!), 3 'normal' ones, and the small pot one (aka the "simmer" burner. Fri Nov 13 14:23:27 -0800 2009 5178858 12626 ted 4 5179821 I thank you all for your input, it is very hard to make a decision on such an investment. I first started off with the Five Star and saw so much negative and had the salesman tell me it the stove was not manufacture well. I really want to have a large stove because I do a lot of cooking with very large gumbo size pots. After looking today I do like the BlueStar better than the Viking. So Bluestar stove and a Vent a Hood Fri Nov 13 14:41:19 -0800 2009 5179775 1124021 theparkerc 5 5180063 I'm happy with my Vent-a-hood, tho it's the only really big hood I've ever had so can't make a comparison with the others that are often mentioned (I previously had a Kobe over a DCS and it did OK, but that was nowhere near the heat that the BS can put out).. Did I read recently that BS now has their own hood? Fri Nov 13 16:42:57 -0800 2009 5179821 10668 johnb 5 5180252 There are no perfect products and a lot of people think I have slammed BS – that was not my intention. BS has awesome burners, and it’s better than 5 star. As you can see there are many people who love it and defend it. BS has a very large marketing arm that IMHO trolls boards such as these and I personally think that is wrong. Overall you will get a very good range at a premium price, if you are willing to pay that amount for it than you will be happy. Good luck to you. Fri Nov 13 18:24:16 -0800 2009 5179821 131643 RetiredChef 6 5180814 >>>BS has a very large marketing arm that IMHO trolls boards such as these and I personally think that is wrong. Based on my own observation, I have my doubts about this statement. All I can report is my own experience, and it was about 4 years ago, before I bought my BS. Specifically, I visited the plant and "showroom" in Reading (slight diversion from a trip I was otherwise making). It was not a sophisticated marketing operation, to put it mildly. It was a smallish room in one end of the factory, next to the offices, with some of the products on display. The president himself came out and showed me around, because nobody else was available at that moment. It certainly was not evocative of a "very large marketing arm." I'm sure they have improved since then--this was pre-Marcus Samuelson, for example, but I remain skeptical that their marketing program is at the level you suggest. Sat Nov 14 05:35:20 -0800 2009 5180252 10668 johnb 7 5181123 I just find it highly suspicious the amount of people on public forums claiming to own a bluestar (vs ALL of the other high end stove manufacturers) and all of these people have a fantastic product that has never had a problem. Like I said before if you just take GW for example it would seem that 70% or more of the people there have a BS stove in their home – that too me is highly suspicious. I also have seen many times when someone points out a problem they are having they get swamped by numerous individuals trying to discredit their post. To date I have NEVER seen that happening with any other high-end range manufacturer. As a matter of fact most of the troll who post for BS will chime in that the owner of the (non-BS range) should have bought a BS and wouldn’t be having this problem. Once again this seems so suspicious and coincidental that it causes the hair on the back of the neck to stand up. As I said earlier, there is NO perfect range, there are satisfied owners of every ranger manufacturer out there and there are people who have had problems. It’s a good range, but not problem free. Sat Nov 14 08:53:11 -0800 2009 5180814 131643 RetiredChef 8 5181184 When researching my purchase, I saw a few complaints about Blue Star ranges. Every manufacturer has some defects. The brand with the fewest complaints seems to be Wolf. The ones I found were almost all related to the dual-fuel models. The guy in the store said that igniters are the biggest problem with that and every other brand. Sat Nov 14 09:21:00 -0800 2009 5181123 11369 Robert Lauriston 3 5180240 JohnB >>>Could you kindly link to the "other forums" etc. you mention, or tell us where they are. I did before and the posts were deleted and I was warned not to do it. Otherwise I would love to. >>>AFAIK the main place you find much commentary on BlueStar and other brands is Garden Web, and while there is always positive and negative commentary about any and every brand, the Garden Web pro faction on BS seems to outweigh the negative faction by a very large margin, much larger than other brands. GardenWeb is controlled by bluestar trolls, Trevor of Eurostoves pumps bluestar plus there are about 5-6 other posters who slam everyone who brings up their problems. No offense but I find Gardenwebs posts to be highly questionable, considering the amount of people who own bluestar vs wolf, Viking, dsc, dacor, etc. If you just took a sampling from their it would seem that 70% of the country has a bluestar range. >>>The faulty igniters is an easily fixed problem. Many people posting about BS seem to be unaware that just about all the "moving" or "control" parts are common off the shelf items, easily found and easily installed by any gas service tech. Hmmmm, my question is why have the problem in the first place. Bluestars ignitoros, according to the service managers of three of the highest volume repair departments, seem to have a very high repair rate compared to Wolf or even the more repair prone Viking igniters. >>>There is no real reason I'm aware of to worry about back-orders on parts, since they are typically available just about anywhere gas range parts are sold. Bluestar uses several propriety parts, again according to the service managers of three of the highest volume repair departments, and they have had problems in getting some of these. >>>This contrasts with just about every other brand, which typically have sophisticated and troublesome proprietary boards and such. I am not a fan of electronics in high heat appliances, it’s a recipe for disaster. I am comparing apples to apples. >>>I have not heard of any gas leak problems, systemic or otherwise. Is this due to the range itself or the hookup lines? Again, where have you seen this posted? I'd be interested. Google BS gas leak and it will lead you to several GW posts where people have had this problem, I learned about it from service managers who state it’s the only high-end range they get repetitive call outs with the customer smelling gas. Fri Nov 13 18:20:01 -0800 2009 5178858 131643 RetiredChef 4 5181489 I guess I'm a Bluestar 'troll.' Whatever. The reason the brand is discussed so much at THS is that interest in the brand developed there following David Rosengarten's stove review (http://www.departures.com/articles/range-of-options), which was circulated even as a draft before it was published. For several years, discussion topics were numbered as they continued. "Bluestar No. 24" is the last one I see (http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/appl/msg0211504730069.html). That means that there were at the very minimum 2,400 posts in total (100 per thread) regarding the brand from prior to 2007. Trevor participates and is a dealer. But most recently, he offered to do a free service call for someone who had complained. That's someone who got a new range with a house they'd bought and both had a problem and decided they didn't like it. There are definitely people out there who've had problems with their stoves. But the reason why folks defend them is that the loudest complainers are also the folks who come across as being the most irrational. And we're talking about maybe half a dozen folks out of likely hundreds of ranges sold. There was one person who decided BS ought to buy hers back after 2 years. She was using every forum out there (including posts pulled here) to try to intimidate them into doing it. There was the other who had cracked igniters and refused multiple offers to sell/ship her parts so she could trade them out. Same person complained about the sharp sheet metal in the innards of the range- it seemed to me that she'd taken it apart enough times to clean under the hood that my guess is she was bumping the igniters in the process and cracking them. So that's the story at THS. Here, whether deliberately or otherwise, you get misinformation about the brand. You can find here where I finally had to post photos of my range to prove that all the burners can simmer. The other poster was just going to keep posting "oh no they don't" ad infinitum. I'd lump your vague aspersions about "service managers" in the same category. It's one of those "anonymous sources" citations that tends to fail the sniff test. And I think that if you go read all the posts on THS, you'll see that a lot of the negative stuff is axe grinding. I don't think BS is the brand for everyone. It's very plain and industrial. It doesn't love overzealous cleaning (good 'cause I'm bad about cleaning it). But the burners rock and the oven/broiler are pretty great, too. I think that BS made a great response to previous issues by instituting the 'white glove' installation and extending the warranty. My range pre-dates this and was purchased from CA- I installed it myself. I saved (IIRC) $700 to $1,000 off buying at list from my regional distributor by doing this. When I see special Bluestar advertising sections in the food mags, then I'll think maybe they have too big a marketing budget. Sat Nov 14 11:58:06 -0800 2009 5180240 12626 ted 5 5182958 Good insightful post, Ted. Your observation that the BlueStar doesn't like over zealous cleaning is right on. No one in this household, save me, is permitted to clean or even wipe our BS or the interior of the hood. Of course, my high handed dictum promotes pointed observations from The LIttle Woman and the Cleaning Lady as to their perceived less than immaculate condition of the stove grates. Sun Nov 15 08:06:41 -0800 2009 5181489 44591 GeezerGourmet 5 5184870 Ted, I have found the exact opposite; those that bring legitimate complaints are usually bashed by the irrational trolls who like to cast the naysayer in a suspicious light. At GW there is usually a plethora of people that come to BS defense and through volume they shout down the person pointing out problems. I don’t post at GW for this very reason, I have seen to many people get attacked and vilified for not going with BS crowd for it to be a coincident. #2 Virtually everyone I know agrees that service managers of high-volume appliance repair shops can give you a very detailed and specific idea of where problems lie, they can delineate which brands have high service call-outs, repetitive problems, and parts availability. To not go to your local service mangers and ask specifics about products is bypassing a very valuable source. Your challenge that using the people who are at the front lines of service problems some how fails “the sniff test” doesn’t make sense. Do you not like them because they tend to paint BS as repair prone? Are we then to assume that only sources that say BS is the best are to be trusted while those don’t place BS on an altar of worship are to be discredited? This is the tactic that is used on GW and if anything is smelling fishy here . . . Cheers PS You don't need a big marketig budget to set up a few accounts on Garden Web or Chowhound. Mon Nov 16 05:05:39 -0800 2009 5181489 131643 RetiredChef 6 5185754 Again, I think the people who get bashed are the ones who pop up only to announce their problems. NJHome's lone Chowhound post below is an example (NJHome; aka William3 at Americastestkitchen.com; not sure of THS handle). I think we can agree to disagree about what the aggregate reaction to complaints on THS is. I think a lot of folks hop in and try to explain what's going on or how to troubleshoot when someone posts a problem. But when someone posts their problem in every thread talking about the brand, it gets tiresome. That Prizer isn't big enough to have a dedicated support system probably hurts. Folks get techs in some locations who just can't solve the problem. Or they fix the symptoms but not the root cause. For example, I'd be willing to bet that Susan W's range has a wiring problem somewhere in it that keeps causing ignition modules to fail. And not getting it fixed has led her all over the net to complain. So that it's absolutely clear, I don't think you can say "service managers of three of the highest volume repair departments" without sourcing who/where you've talked to. It's a vague aspersion that is too convenient in its support of your position. Backing it up with "virtually everyone I know agrees...," well, gosh, I'd really have to be ill informed to disagree with the opinion of everyone you know about the nameless/faceless service managers. That's why I mentioned the sniff test- unnamed sources are underwhelming in terms of being convincing. Anyway, I like my range and haven't had any problems with it. If I do, I count myself fortunate to be mechanically-inclined enough to fix whatever's wrong. Mon Nov 16 10:34:13 -0800 2009 5184870 12626 ted 1 5183334 We bought a 4 burner 8/07. With in the first year we had the door replaced because its hinges siezed up. Note: We are very gentle with everything we have, the repair guys said this is not unusual. On 11/14/09 (last night) we had the door hinge (right side) sieze up completely (again) and cannot open the door. We have filled in the repair form on-line like last time, and will hopefully hear back soon. So far BlueStar has repaired the defects, I will report what happens this time when there is resolution. In the past: An electric arc literally shocked us on another occasion and repair said the way the front plate on the stove was attached pinched the wires, hence electrical arc. A year ago we discovered the bottom of the (interior) oven at a slant (not flat). We pulled out the racks, removed the bottom of the oven to find the rivets (aluminum) along the back, and those at the rear on the sides had failed. The rivets hold the L-shaped pieces of metal that keep the bottom of the oven in place. The bottom of the oven is now resting on the burner underneath. A repairman with a pre-boxed "kit" arrived and fixed the oven bottom. When our oven heats up it expands and we hear a bang. We feel that is what fatigues the rivets, since immediately after the repair it was quiet. It is getting progressively louder. I am thinking we'll have the bottom fall in again. Each time we hear the bang, we are reminded of the eventual repair to be made. Good service is a big part, I believe, when making an expensive purchase. My 4 burner model # RNB304BSS was $3,400. And I got the 6" low back vent. Sun Nov 15 11:30:40 -0800 2009 4889493 1124753 NJHome