636219 Mon Jul 13 10:43:06 -0700 2009 48 18 Manhattan 0 4853987 Have a biggish birthday coming up, and we were planning to be in London at Hibiscus for it, until life and a darling new kitten at home intervened. We went to Per Se for a previous biggish birthday and were very pleased with it, but maybe not $700.00 + worth (this was 5 years ago, obviously it will be more expensive this time). Money is not exactly no object, but a blowout is not outside the question. Have eaten at most of the usual top end places and enjoyed them as well. Is Per Se really (dare I say it) worth it these days? Mon Jul 13 10:43:06 -0700 2009 13709 buttertart 1 4854296 If you didn't find it worth $700 on your last visit, you will not find it worth the cost on this visit. In general, if one is asking if Per Se is worth the price, they should not go. I know that may sound snarky, but I'm serious. It's the kind of place you go when money truly is no object. Mon Jul 13 12:09:39 -0700 2009 4853987 10820 Blumie 2 4854399 My benchmark is Taillevent under Vrinat. Not a stranger to very expensive meals. Mon Jul 13 12:43:57 -0700 2009 4854296 13709 buttertart 3 4854408 I have not been to Taillevent, but have been to comparably priced restaurants in Paris (and I have been to Per Se). My view is that you go to these places not because they're "worth it" in some monetary sense, but because, for $500/person all in, they provide an experience that you typically can not find at your typical $200/person restaurants. Not everyone can afford the $500 places (or the $200 places for that matter); if you're lucky enough to be able to, you have the opportunity to experience it, but it's hard to conclude that it's "worth it." Mon Jul 13 12:47:12 -0700 2009 4854399 10820 Blumie 4 4854417 My "quandary" exactly. Mon Jul 13 12:49:10 -0700 2009 4854408 13709 buttertart 3 4854447 I dined 4 times at Taillevent under M. Vrinat, and I've dined 4 times at Per Se. I use both Taillevent and Per Se as my benchmarks for exceptional dining. I have a big birthday celebration coming up, and since I can't get to Paris, I'm going to Per Se. I know it will be a spectacular dinner. Mon Jul 13 12:57:12 -0700 2009 4854399 12019 ellenost 4 4854673 Thank you, this is exactly what I had hoped to hear. Mon Jul 13 13:48:40 -0700 2009 4854447 13709 buttertart 1 4854366 Worth and cost are not the same. I would not want to spend a special night being disappointed. I run my own business, and although my compitition has higher prices, they don't provide a better experience. Mon Jul 13 12:33:36 -0700 2009 4853987 1083110 jilliejay 2 4854403 Precisely. Experience is key. I want to feel cosseted on every level. Mon Jul 13 12:46:03 -0700 2009 4854366 13709 buttertart 3 4856153 If you just want to be cosseted it's probably the best place you could go. The food is very good, but also extremely straightforward. Mon Jul 13 22:55:02 -0700 2009 4854403 92643 brooklyndude 4 4971955 It takes an awful lot of art to make food seem that straightforward. Mon Aug 24 06:13:26 -0700 2009 4856153 13709 buttertart 1 4854501 I've been to Per Se three times, and for me, the experience was worth it. However, one's perception of "experience" has an ingredient in addition to the elegant and perfect execution of service along with out-of-this world food; the guests have to be open to the experience. In other words, everyone at the table has to be on the same page to participate in the magic. If you think that you might be disappointed, or if you are worried that someone else at your table might be disappointed, then definitely do not do this. If you want to put yourself in the mindset of a big birthday and it's only money and you only live once, I say go for it! It will be well worth it. Mon Jul 13 13:10:24 -0700 2009 4853987 229006 j. marie 2 4854586 Beautifully put! This may be true in other domains as well, in being "open to the experience", like music ;) I recently dined at Per Se, salon lunch, and found the food,wine,service and view amazing to experience! Mon Jul 13 13:27:43 -0700 2009 4854501 14743 Trumpetguy 1 4854718 You know BT, having dined at both Per Se and The French Laundry, I feel TFL is better than Per Se. Maybe it was because I ate there first, maybe it was the circumstances of how I secured a res, maybe it was Napa Valley or maybe it was the full moon. I think Eleven Madison Park is, on a cost/benefit/pleasure scale every bit as good as Per Se. Happy Birthday! Mon Jul 13 13:59:49 -0700 2009 4853987 148845 scoopG 2 4854952 We've always wanted to go to the French Laundry - try for a reservation whenever we go back to the Bay Area but haven't been able to get in. Interesting and good to know about Eleven Madison Park - we went once for dinner and weren't completely blown away, but there are only a very few restaurants in my experience that are on their game 99.9% of the time. I think it was a Monday, perhaps the B team was at the helm. Mon Jul 13 15:05:33 -0700 2009 4854718 13709 buttertart 3 4855417 Oh, OK. Well the secret to getting into THF is to keep calling! We did well before we left NYC and lucked out by getting through while we were in Yountville and got through about 3pm local time. They had an opening the following day. Mon Jul 13 17:41:31 -0700 2009 4854952 148845 scoopG 2 4854980 i disagree about emp. compared to per se it is definitely 2 notches below. if money's not a real issue as the op mentions then emp and per se do not belong in the same sentence. i'd put jg and daniel in between them as well. Mon Jul 13 15:14:54 -0700 2009 4854718 10920 halo 3 4855425 I said on a cost/benefit/pleasure scale EMP holds up very well. $1000 vs $400. Mon Jul 13 17:42:43 -0700 2009 4854980 148845 scoopG 4 4855702 If you order EMP's 11-course Gourmand with wine pairings, the cost for two will be well north of $400. Worth, Every. Dollar! While most of what we had at our one meal at per se was excellent, I was sorely disappointed with a very dull veal course. Overall, I did not find the cuisine to be superior to the cuisine at EMP or, for that matter, at several other high-end restaurants in NYC. Given the "mystique" surrounding per se, to say nothing of the extremely high price, I think people are loathe to admit any imperfections, fearing it will make them seem foolish for spending so much money when they can have equally superb cuisine as well as equally stellar service and ambiance for some fraction of the cost at per se. Mon Jul 13 19:20:42 -0700 2009 4855425 13867 RGR 5 4856282 Haven't tried the 11-course Gourmand at EMP, only the three course meal. While I enjoyed my meal and service at per pe I guess I was spoiled first by my experience at TFL. I really only recommend per se to someone trying to complete a Thomas Keller trifecta! Tue Jul 14 02:18:30 -0700 2009 4855702 148845 scoopG 5 4856854 My sister and I are going to EMP next week for the 11 course Gourmand dinner. We can't wait! I'll report back. Tue Jul 14 07:38:38 -0700 2009 4855702 12019 ellenost 5 4966083 I gotta disagree re the mystique point, RGR -- people are pretty critical of Per Se. Also, while I've only been to French Laundry, I thought the food was in another league relative to EMP. It was a transformative meal for me -- one dish with caviar was so good it overcame an aversion I've had since childhood. Fri Aug 21 12:05:10 -0700 2009 4855702 18466 a_and_w 3 4856149 I couldn't agree more. Mon Jul 13 22:53:09 -0700 2009 4854980 92643 brooklyndude 2 4966025 I went to Per Se before TFL and I too found TFL to be a more pleasurable experience. I think it's the location. I believe Bourdain said something to the effect of, "one does not take the A train to Mecca." While overlooking the park is nice, Yountville adds a little something extra to the meal. Fri Aug 21 11:45:24 -0700 2009 4854718 247808 pseudokiwi 1 4855044 No. Small counts of good food, bad enought on its own, but when you throw in the very annoying foo-foo atmosphere IT AIN'T WORTH IT. Mon Jul 13 15:32:29 -0700 2009 4853987 94651 NYJewboy 1 4855057 I do not believe that Per Se is "worth it". The meals I have had have not been among the most memorable I have had in New York, never mind the country, double never mind the world. I've said my piece on Per Se here and on other boards, and won't repeat it ad nauseum here -- but I don't think anything about Per Se -- atmosphere, "personalization" (for lack of a better word), innovation or quality of cooking makes me feel good about the price tag. Went there for my last birthday, but thankfully it wasn't a big one. To spend Per Se style money in NY, I'd upgrade my wine choices at Le Bernardin, Corton, Jean Georges, even Atelier de J.R., I've enjoyed more than Per Se. Certainly enjoyed Masa more, although it was considerably more expensive than PS. Mon Jul 13 15:35:15 -0700 2009 4853987 28236 Elaine Snutteplutten 1 4855614 I hope it is worth it...I Will be at Per Se, Yasuda and Le Berardin next wekk and will report back. I noticed the $275 price tag at Per Se includes service. Does anyone tip beyond that? What is the protocol? Mon Jul 13 18:47:42 -0700 2009 4853987 83092 Apprentice 2 4855653 There is no particularly protocol. Some diners do tip beyond that; others do not. Mon Jul 13 19:02:44 -0700 2009 4855614 13867 RGR 1 4965650 We were there last night. I can now unequivocally say this was the best meal we have had in any restaurant in NY and among the top 10 meals of our lifetimes. The service, food, and wine were as close to perfect as I have seen since our first time at Taillevent. Standouts were the oysters and pearls (which I would be happy to eat as my last meal on earth), the halibut with melon, the tomato salad...but everything was spectacular. Fri Aug 21 09:57:59 -0700 2009 4853987 13709 buttertart 2 4966443 Yup, that's pretty much the beginning and the end of the story right there, good call on going there :-) Fri Aug 21 13:56:17 -0700 2009 4965650 222808 theOGbigguy 2 4966547 I had dinner at Per Se on Wednesday, and it was well worth the money. I posted my review separately (if anyone is interested). Fri Aug 21 14:30:57 -0700 2009 4965650 12019 ellenost 3 4966591 I read it today with great interest. What a place. This is the rundown on our dinner: It was divine. We had: Rosé Champagne me, Pernod him Tiny gougeres filled with Mornay sauce Salmon tartare cornets with crème fraiche Nigl Austrian Riesling ½ btl “Oysters and pearls” - butter-poached tiny oysters in a divine sauce with pearl tapioca and about ½ oz Sevruga-type caviar Heirloom tomato salad - all colors, slightly pickled cucumbers, fresh hearts of palm cut in whimsical shapes Grilled halibut with batonnets of watermelon and Cavaillon melon (maybe another one in there too) Glasses of Chassagne-Montrachet 2007 Seared scallop with Marcona olives and citrus gastrique, little tiny Brussels sprouts and infant radishes Rafanelli Zin 2006 unfiltered ½ btl Fillet of duck breast with corn off the cob and okra (rabbit was on the menu and we won’t eat it because of husb's childhood pet - so they said np, what would you like instead) Veal loin sous-vide medium rare with crispy sweetbreads and infant turnips and onions - would have been nice to have had more sweetbreads and less veal Glasses of a red made in Brooklyn which was spectacular and I don’t have the name - by the same vintner as the Scholium Project Riesling below A washed-rind goat cheese with a fig jam and a shortbread that was beyond buttery Glasses of Scholium Project Riesling - botrytized grapes made into a bone-dry wine, Sauternes flavors with no sweetness, a mindblower Gooseberry and crème fraiche sorbets Glasses of a Spaetlese Austrian Riesling 1992 Lemon meringue deconstructed - lemon curd, a thin stick of meringue, ice cream of some sort, a few raspberries A miniature vanilla crème brulée in a doll’s gratin pan (my dolly dish set was lacking this piece) Buttermilk panna cotta with plum jam Chocolates (dark choc with bacon, with Bartlett pear, white choc with ginger among several other types - this is where I gave up) (Excellent) Coffee for husb, nothing for me Candies - salted caramels, 3 types of truffles, hazelnuts coated in chocolate (I ate one, divine), sour cherry nougats (Michael snagged a couple of these to take home), little tiny root beer (?) flavored things They gave out little bags of layered Venetian cookies/cake to take home. A blowout. The best dinner ever in NYC. Heaven. Fri Aug 21 14:46:52 -0700 2009 4966547 13709 buttertart 4 4966790 Great report. We don't eat rabbit either (so I'm glad they were able to substitute the duck for you). When I called to reserve, I mentioned that we don't eat rabbit, sweetbreads, and my sister doesn't eat pork. They only needed to adjust the halibut succotash for my sister by omitting the bacon. They were very nice about our restrictions, and when I confirmed the reservation, they had it on file, and when we sat down, our captain again noted the restrictions. Fri Aug 21 15:58:39 -0700 2009 4966591 12019 ellenost 4 4967252 Oops, disregard my (very) belated post below. Glad you had a great time. Fri Aug 21 19:27:56 -0700 2009 4966591 81131 ulterior epicure 4 4968232 Thanks much for reporting back! I am glad you enjoyed it. Sat Aug 22 11:26:12 -0700 2009 4966591 148845 scoopG 4 4970865 interesting. we were there a few weeks ago and had some of what you had -- tho this menu sounds much better than ours. we thought several things were terrific, but were entirely underwhelmed, felt we could have made much of it ourselves and while the service was fine, it did not knock us out. The bread was great. In thinking about the meal, I think it is much more about image than reality. Absolutely not worth $700+ -- no where near the best meal we've had anywhere, in a restaurant or in NY. If you are the kind of person who does not mind spending a couple of hundred dollars on a pair of jeans, maybe Per Se wouldn't seem overpriced. Sun Aug 23 16:48:06 -0700 2009 4966591 1096384 research 5 4975809 So...where in NYC have you eaten that was better? Tue Aug 25 08:52:19 -0700 2009 4970865 18466 a_and_w 1 4967250 Not that I would be likely to choose to spend my birthday at either per se or Hibiscus, notwithstanding the price, I would much rather spend my hard-earned money at the former. At least the service will be very good, if not excellent. Personally, for the amount of money you're willing to spend, I'd much rather celebrate at Eleven Madison Park, Jean Georges, or le Bernardin. Fri Aug 21 19:27:18 -0700 2009 4853987 81131 ulterior epicure 2 4967283 Sounds like a plan to me! ;) lol Fri Aug 21 19:49:16 -0700 2009 4967250 13867 RGR 3 4969948 Does the head waiter still give his recitation about palate fatigue? Sun Aug 23 09:47:11 -0700 2009 4967283 1103841 Robert Brown 4 4970523 Head waiter at which restaurant, Robert Brown? Sun Aug 23 14:05:56 -0700 2009 4969948 81131 ulterior epicure 2 4971930 We have eaten at all three (EMP, JG and le Bernardin) and found this truly superior to any of them. Mon Aug 24 05:59:38 -0700 2009 4967250 13709 buttertart 1 4971968 PS the bread service was another highlight. Tiny "Parker House" rolls sprinkled with fleur de sel, rye rings with duck fat, potato sourdough, baguette rolls, etc. Their boulanger is the best I've ever encountered. The 2 butters - house-salted and sweet, from Marin County - were lovely as well (the sweet was Jersey yellow, something I haven't seen in a long time). Mon Aug 24 06:17:55 -0700 2009 4853987 13709 buttertart 2 4971987 Agree that the Parker House rolls were incredible. We opted for the pretzels (so soft and yummy!--I think we each had 2 of them). Mon Aug 24 06:23:39 -0700 2009 4971968 12019 ellenost 3 4971990 i forgot about those (because we didn't try them for whatever reason). Going to try the duck fat in my next sourdough rye. Mon Aug 24 06:25:10 -0700 2009 4971987 13709 buttertart 3 4974972 I think those same "Parker House" rolls were called (and, perhaps, still are called) "butter balls" when I ate at The French Laundry. And boy did that name fit the bill. Tue Aug 25 00:19:48 -0700 2009 4971987 81131 ulterior epicure 4 4975187 They were lovely. My mother-in-law makes something quite similar - will suggest the salt topping next time we're there! Tue Aug 25 05:41:40 -0700 2009 4974972 13709 buttertart 4 4975254 They were so yummy! Would have loved a basket of them (would have eaten them all--shared of course with my table). Tue Aug 25 06:11:34 -0700 2009 4974972 12019 ellenost 5 4975989 Also cute. Love small-sized bread/pastry items. Tue Aug 25 09:39:59 -0700 2009 4975254 13709 buttertart