The Death of 24hr food in Boston

[mwk]

So, I see in today's Boston Herald that the one lone holdout of 24/7 dining in Boston, the South Street Diner, is being called before the Boston Licensing Board because of complaints from neighbors of rowdy behavior late at night from it's customers. They may be forced to close at midnight. One of the complaints is that there are long lines between 1-4 am and that disturbs the neighbors. Well, of COURSE the lines are long, it's the only darn place open!

The same thing happened in Quincy with the Ihop here, that used to be 24/7 and was forced to close down at midnight now. My favorite 24 hour go-to spot, Bova's Bakery, also was forced to stop serving food after midnight.

What is it about Boston, that we can't manage to have 24 hour restaurants? Other places have 24 hour Waffle Houses, IHop's, Diners of all shapes and sizes. Yet here in Boston, 24 hour dining is equivalent to inciting mob rule. Do other cities just put up with the rowdies who come out late at night? Are Bostonians just incapable of decent behavior when they are tired and cranky and hungry?

[BobB]

It's not 24/7, but Hi-Fi Pizza in Central Sq, Cambridge is open until 3AM on weekends. I remember hitting it up about 2AM one Halloween 20-odd years ago, with a half-dozen friends, all of us in full outrageous costume - and in those days we were into creating near-Hollywood-quality costumes. The looks we got from the late-night stoner crowd stay with me to this day!

[Ralphie_in_Boston]

Was their food good back then? Because it ain't these days. A few months ago some friends and I were in Central Square to see a show at the Middle East. One of the guys hadn't eaten yet and he wanted a slice from there beforehand, because it was close by and 'safe' (to him). He regretted it for the rest of the evening.

[jgg13]

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, it's the sort of thing you get *after* the show, not before ... assuming that one's had a beer or two (or better yet, eight or nine) during the show.

[Joanie]

I've never had a beer before eating a slice there (maybe 10 times total) and kinda enjoy it. I guess this tidbit should be in that old thread about things you like that no one else does.

[jgg13]

This actually did remind me - while I haven't done so in a while, I used to very occasionally get a steak bomb there before heading over to the saloon (RIP), and it was always somewhere between fine and tasty. I've *never* really liked their pizza except when drunk though.

[BobB]

Good? Good didn't enter into it. When you need a slice of pizza at 2AM you hit Hi-Fi like Sir Edmund Hillary did Mt. Everest - "because it's there."

[Uncle Yabai]

Speaking of Hi-Fi, is there another Hi-Fi in Charlestown? In the movie "Mystic River" one of the murder suspects, when asked by good guy detective Kevin Bacon where he was at 2:00 AM, he says he had gone to Hi-Fi for some pizza. Would somebody in Charlestown really go across town to Central Square for pizza at 2:00 AM?

[jgg13]

No. As often happens in movies that are set in a specific locale, geography takes a back seat to the show. IIRC there were all sorts of geographical oddities in that movie.

[Ralphie_in_Boston]

There's actually a Pizza place called Hi-Fi on Dot Ave as well!

[rknrll]

Hi-Fi is the worst.
It's worth a 3 minute walk over to Moody's for a falafel or shawarma.

[TomH]

Not if you don't like Falafel or Shwarma. :)

[jgg13]

I don't know when we're talking super late - Moodys gets pretty bad after hours as well.

[rknrll]

Yeah...the wait can be rather long - but at least the food isn't grease on top of dough.

[jgg13]

No, I mean it often just isn't very good. I'd say that 90% of the time I bop in there after 1:30 or so, they have one available type of kebab roll-up, and that's only because they're slopplily churning them out and letting them sit there until someone orders one.

[BarmyFotheringayPhipps]

Turns out that the "death" talk was premature: none of the complainers bothered to show up at the meeting and the licensing board ruled that the South Street Diner can remain open 24 hours.

[Ralphie_in_Boston]

That is great news!

[Gordough]

file it under the category of anyone can make a faceless complaint but one that requires you to show your face? Not so much. Either that or all the wealthy folks in the nice condos/lofts who originally complained are down in the Cape/Island for the 4th. LOL.

[Snoop37]

Here's a cool tip for all you late night bar and club goers..... after a late night out, if you head over to the Double Tree, go to the front desk and ask for a chocolate chip cookie. They HAVE to give it to you and they are so warm and delightful. I've gone a few times with some friends and it's always delicious. They're free too!

[Prav]

This is hilarious and awesome. I feel like you discovered a secret video game code that warps you to level 24. Mad props to a star chowhound. ;)

[Suze123]

I thought that was only for guests checking in.

[Snoop37]

haha no. If you go up and ask nicely for a cookie, the front desk person will give it to you. They have a special drawer right next to them that has all the cookies and there's something in there to keep them warm. And I'm basing all this on the Double Tree near (or is it in?) Chinatown.

[tastytones]

I know there are not too many 24/7 but I would be surprised if you could not get food until 3 or 4 am at Caffe Pompei -- from past experience there was always a line out the door after the clubs closed. Has that changed?

[scorp508]

This place better not suffer the fate the vocal few are trying to impose on it. This is the same kind of crap people who buy a house next to a drag strip or airport try to pull. "OMG.. the realtor didn't tell me what was on the other side of the trees. No wonder they would only show it on a Monday night!" Sorry folks, that diner has been there long before you have been and it should stay that way too.

If the MBTA ever finds a way to operate a limited schedule 24 hours without going 1 trillion in debt I bet we'll see the demand for more 24 hour eating pick up. One can dream...

[Joanie]

People are talking like it's a done deal but hopefully the licensing commission will see there's no reason to limit its hours. When is the meeting?

[MC Slim JB]

Per the MenuPages Boston blog, 10am today at City Hall, Room 809A.

http://mcslimjb.blogspot.com/

[Snoop37]

This passed weekend I was at this terrible terrible pizza place at 3:30 in the morning. It's right on Mass Ave and a short walk from Newbury Street (I don't recall the name, but its very close to Spike's). I had no idea when they closed but there was line out the door at 3:30 am.

[rknrll]

Little Steve's House of Pizza.

[jgg13]

It's not terrible at 3:30am though ...

[Snoop37]

Haha I was a little drunk, but it didn't matter in this case

[jgg13]

It's a lot like HiFi in Central Square (which I end up near a lot more, but tend to manage to avoid it more these days). It's the sort of thing that you'd never *ever* want to get while sober, but when you're not can (but not always) hit the spot. Of course, I think a lot of things hits the spot when I've intoxicated, so that's not the best judge of things!

[msgcook]

What neighbors!! The highway, parking garage, or empty offices next door?? Those high rise condo tenants need to get over it, if it weren't the customers it would be traffic noise.

[Dmnkly]

As a recent import (circa yesterday) this is distressing news. Does Boston not at least have the usual complement of greasy diners and Korean BBQ joints?

[Karl S]

No.

Boston has long been a city of larks, not owls, and is still biased towards larks - it's hard to overcome centuries of local culture quickly. I recall working as a lawyer in the 1980s where at least half of my colleagues were in the office by 7AM, trying to leave by 7 or 8PM. Meanwhile, our counterparts on deals in NY would not start work until some time after 10AM, and try to impress us that they were still working 12 hours later. We were not impressed, but they were impressed with themselves. Also, while Boston has its own local bar culture, whatever dance club culture it had around the time of World War 2 withered relatively quickly - going out for extended drinks and dancing is viewed largely as something students and those who are resisting adulthood do, so the needs surrounding that are not cultivated. This is probably reinforced by the fact that ice and snow make life unpredictable here from December through March.

When I started a new job 4 years ago, I was getting up at by 4 to go for a 2 mile walk before going for a 2K swim before getting into the office, and I was not alone walking around my local park after 4AM in the morning.

[Veggo]

Beantown after dark has been downhill since Buzzy's Roast Beef on Storrow Drive closed. Wher else could one get a great potato knish and RB sandwich in the middle of the night?

[BobB]

Hey, I still miss Mondo's. Now THAT was a classic all-night diner!

[Taralli]

Bob, I was trying to remember that name! Was there is everything from wet swim suits to formal attire.

[Northender]

Was that the place on Essex Street that served the turkey dinners all day long - or am I mixing it up with another joint that was truly unique..?

[BobB]

No, Mondo's was down in Haymarket, nestled in among the butcher shops, before the area was cleaned up and turned into Faneuil Hall Marketplace.

You might be thinking of the Essex Deli, at the corner of Essex and Washington. My mother used to take me there for lunch after we went shopping at Jordan Marsh - about 50 years ago.

[Northender]

Thanks, I now remember Mondo's. The place I was thinking about was sometimes referred to as "The hole in the wall deli". It was on Essex Street but probalbly down from Kingston Street. It looked more like a kitchen than anything else - but they would serve fresh turkey dinners for " as long as they lasted" for very short money. This dates back to the late 1970's or very early 1980's.

[BobB]

I think the Essex Deli was gone by then - I wasn't kidding with the "50 years ago" reference, my memories of the place are from the late '50s and early '60s.

[peregrine]

There was an actual deli in that area called The Hole in the Wall. That's what they had - a very large service window that opened directly onto the street. You stood in line, ordered your deli sandwich, and ate it somewhere else. They briefly added an indoor counter and dining room, but it didn't last. It was probably the ultra-low overhead of the take-out window that allowed them to give such fantastic values.

[9lives]

There was also a "Hole in the Wall Deli" on Arch St..in part of the space that is now the "back" of Elephant and Castle...very good sandwiches..late 70s-early 80s

They moved to 125 Summer; but didn't succceed there.

[Taralli]

Here's a little blurb from the Phoenix about Mondo's: " After midnight, you could get breakfast all night at a colorful spot in the central meat market called Mondo’s. (Mondo’s clientele of night-owl students, taxi drivers, artists, and prostitutes has never been reassembled, but its collection of amateur nude oil paintings was a precursor to the Museum of Bad Art)."

[Veggo]

Sounds like a plaintive wail for a reunion, with body paint.

[BobB]

I recognize that quote, it's from a great article written a few years ago by Robert Nadeau on the history of the Boston food scene. The complete article is here: http://thephoenix.com/Boston/Food/272... (and the first comment posted under it is mine).

[StriperGuy]

Well said Karl S.

To Veggo, Buzzy's was there, and I ate it, but I am not sure it was ever good.

To Dmnkly, nope, though other places in Chinatown are open late.

[Uncle Yabai]

He he. My view is that many places start with the intention of opening late, and it just doesn't really work, for whatever reason, be it the customers aren't there, or it is dangerous or rowdy. For example, I recall Toscanini's used to be open until 1:00 AM, and now closes at 10:00 or 11:00. Il Panino on Mass Ave in Cambridge used to open until midnight, and now closes at 10:00. Even venerable Pinocchio's in the Square has cut back its hours. At some point it used to open until 4:00 AM.

Obligatory Buzzy's story: Back in the mid-80's, I used to go to Buzzy's with my roomate, because we were, well, buzzed, and needed something to give consistency to the upchuck. My roomate, however, really liked Buzzy's (for some still unexplained reason defying logic). So one day he orders his usual roast beef sandwich and he tells the guy behind the counter (if I recall, it was more of a window) that he really likes the food at Buzzy's. And the guy replies, "you like this s**t?"

[StriperGuy]

Uncle Yabai, that is just about right. Actually laughed my @... off as I read your post.. You did order through a window. At one point the whole place got a fairly major upgrade, why was a complete mystery.. The key character, was he actually Buzzy? had a huge red handlebar mustache.

[Veggo]

you guys are cruel. Buzzy's RB was rare, buns were not stale at 2 a.m., he had a piquant bbq sauce, knishes were hot and not overly greasy, and all the gunfire was 2 miles away in Chucktown. What more can you ask for?

[StriperGuy]

Veggo, in the final analysis I defer to you. In all fairness, can't say that actually remember too much about the food ;-) Heck, it WAS open during the day so some normal folks actually had to eat there...

[Veggo]

The site is now a wing of MGH, where I had a bone graft and a tumor removed, so the location has served me well for different needs :)

[Uncle Yabai]

Maybe I'm confusing memorable experiences, but wasn't Buzzy's, in a dash of urban poetry, right outside the prison (now the Liberty hotel)?

[StriperGuy]

Veggo, hate to say it, but Uncle Yabai is right on this one. Buzzy's was right at the Charles T stop directly in front of the prison. Even today, any MGH site is at least 75 yards away. I am certain of this as a friend live right nearby in a building that was demolished for the MGH expansion. That said, I am glad that MGH has served you well.

I do hope that neither of you spent any time at the Liberty Hotel's former incarnation ;-).

[jgg13]

Those buildings were demolished (and Buzzys removed) due to the construction of the Yawkey center (I also knew someone that lived in one of those buildings). I could never remember the exact spot that Buzzy's sat on, but I believe it was in one of the paved areas in the nook between the Liberty/Yawkey.

[Ralphie_in_Boston]

Has anyone ever seen Jay Leno talk about when he was in college (at Emerson, I think) he and his buddies would buy sandwiches at Buzzy's and then chuck them over the wall to give to the prisoners?

Cruel / unusual punishment? I don't know. I'd driven down that stretch of Storrow drive countless times but never stopped at Buzzy's.

[jgg13]

I really miss it being there, although I find myself in that area less and less late at night (daytime is a different story). That being said, they had another one in central square for a bit, an actual store front. That place was no good.

[mrwhiskers]

surely what Karl describes is true, to a degree, but the puritan bent actually didn't extend to drinking. twenty or thirty years ago, when people really drank you could walk into any bar in the city, including the Ritz at 2 o'clock in the afternoon and find the bar lined with people -- not just barflys either. Postwar Boston was a hard-drinking town with few exceptions. Even our politicians were known for being heavy drinkers. Tip O'Neil, Ted Kennedy, and Ray Flynn come to mind. When Ronald Reagan visited Boston he went to the Eire Pub. The most popular television show set in Boston took place in a bar. Sure, Bostonians might not have stayed up as late drinking as New Yorkers but only because they might have started drinking earlier.

[StriperGuy]

Heck, Scully Square had plenty of hard core carousiing back in the day.

[Gio]

All the fun stopped when Scollay Square was demolished in 1962 to make way for Government Center.....My uncle had a late night restaurant across the street from the Old Howard. LOL

[Karl S]

Excuse me, but I specifically noted that Boston did have and retains something of a bar culture. It's the *club* culture that withered and died here. Not with the Cocoanut Grove, perhaps, but club culture here has for a while been restricted to students, immigrants with $$, and some other groups.

[mrwhiskers]

restricted? how so? there is still a vibrant music "club" scene here. dance clubs, not so much. i think you have a rather outdated notion of the club scene and undervalue the popularity of the area's hundreds of bars.

[Karl S]

The club scene just not as much a part of non-student life as it is in New York. And again, I specifically noted that bars are more vibrant. It's not about what I "undervalue." You misread me.

[MC Slim JB]

Part of a continuum of things that make Boston less than world class: oppression of street carts, public transit closing before bars do, blue-law early closing times, etc.

I guess I don't understand the neighbors: there have been 24-hour places on that corner for many years, and as part of a handful of overnight places obviously attracts a lot of overserved customers. Did you not do your homework before you moved there? Because that is not something new on that block. I can understand the objection to a new place getting a late-night license next door, but if it was there before, how can you complain about it now?

http://mcslimjb.blogspot.com/

[greygarious]

Dollars to doughnuts it's some newer residents with an overly developed sense of entitlement making a big fuss. On such cases, local governments often give in to a vocal minority just to get rid of the constant compaining.

Though I've lived here more than half my life, as a native of the metropolitan NYC area, I've always found Boston to be something of a bush-league backwater as far as amenities and convenience are concerned.

[mwk]

So I guess my question is, in NYC are the late night crowds more well behaved than they are here? The reason that seems to come up all the time for not being open, is that the late night crowds are drunks and rowdies and cause trouble, calls to the police, etc.

Is it that "regular" Bostonians go to bed early, leaving only college students and punks out late? Or do the places in NYC just deal with the trouble differently? I know when I've been out after 1 or 2 am in NYC, the restaurants all seem to be crowded with calm, rational people and I don't see a lot of the type of behavior that seems to be prevalent with the late crowds here.

[greygarious]

Perhaps the concentration of students is a higher percentage of the Boston/Cambridge area than in larger NYC. I was never a late-nighter in either, so have no first-hand experience. I do remember, maybe 20 yrs ago, going to a performance of The Messiah with a friend. We hadn't had dinner, and were famished at 11 when it ended. We walked past shuttered restaurants for quite some time before finding a bar where we could get a few tidbits. All I remember is the blister on my big toe. My generalization was as much about public transportation and variety of merchandise and restaurants than their hours.

[lergnom]

NYC is louder and the expectations are that there will be noise. Most businesses are located below housing so there's always some noise.

[hotoynoodle]

it's also much more densely populated, and the mix of residential and retail is quite different than here. no, i do not think new yorkers are inherently better behaved than bostonians.

certain neighborhoods in manhattan, like the meat-packing district (and the village and soho long before that), are getting the same social pressure from newer, wealthier residents that are being brought to force change in places like the leather district here.

if you're spending millions on your condo, you don't want drunks tossing cookies on your front steps.

but with the mbta stopping at midnight and most bars closing between 12 and 2, there really aren't all that many peeps out there looking to eat something that doesn't come off a sausage cart.

there was an article a while back that interviewed a fair number of owners of late-night eateries (moon villa among them) and they all said they were rolling back their hours because the demand was no longer there. this was well before the crash, so not economy-related.

[MC Slim JB]

My point is that if you don't want drunks tossing their cookies on your front steps, maybe you shouldn't be buying a condo near a 24-hour eatery that has been in the neighborhood decades before you thought about buying there.

It seems like very poor planning at best (failure to investigate the neighborhood thoroughly before you plunk down millions to buy a condo), and at worst a grossly exaggerated sense of entitlement, that a neighborhood must morph to suit the needs of a few well-heeled newcomers, and the whole city lose one its few 24-hour eateries in the process.

http://mcslimjb.blogspot.com/

[hotoynoodle]

mc-- i don't disagree, but from what i've seen living in boston so many years, we are in the minority. i bought a pricey condo a few years back. a storefront that had been vacant and dilapidated got approved to house a burger king. people in my building went insane -- like a triple x theater was opening up, for pete's sake. (btw, that bk is a 10-minute walk from my building. not next door.)

i LIKE that i live in a very mixed neighborhood. not everybody is that open-minded.

you've seen it in the north end and the south end. the new money pushes out the quirky old standards. yes, i hate it. it's the malling of america. but it's hardly a new phenomenon.

[hotoynoodle]

the population and demographic of a place like the north end was stable for a very long time. i wonder how many people who now live within earshot of bova's lived there 5 or 10 years ago? it had been open 24 hours for like 80 years.

[pierce]

Similarly, as someone who grew up along the Pacific but has lived much elsewhere, I have found every other body of water to be small by comparison.

[Ralphie_in_Boston]

I totally agree with greygarious. Ten or 15 years ago it wasn't so chic to live in the Leather District area. Now that they've developed high-end loft condos, rich people moved in and expect it to be silent at night, just as it was for them when they lived in the suburbs.

The exact same thing happened to Bova's.

It's totally asinine that we can't have 24-hour options in the city. Let alone for the partying crowd, what about 3rd-shifters who want to be able to get something to eat in public?

The only place Bostonians will allow to be open 24 hours is Dunkin-freakin-Donuts. And that's a sad state of affairs.