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Sumptuous San Francisco/Sonoma? Part II (1999/2009)

ZenFoodist Jun 24, 2009 06:25 PM

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/16084
A trip down memory lane....

Well here I am, a decade after my initial query, on the glorious California Boards again trolling for "Can't Be Missed-s" in the City by the Bay.

My husband, the chowpup, parents, & in-laws will be in San Fran for 4 nights at the end of August and then continuing on to Sonoma for another four nights. The last time I was in San Fran was in 1999 when my husband was my boyfriend and my parents were agahst that we were traveling "'unmarried". We've come along way.

Your suggestions then were fantastic and we had a splendid time.

Ten years later...I wonder:

Should I still go to Ton Kiang for dim sum? It was stellar then. Beyond. And I am from Flushing, NY so that's high praise for dim sum as I have it twice a week.

How about Zuni and Chez Panisse?

Swan Oyster Depot?

Aqua? Rosa Pistola? Or are they old-hat?

What about the drive from San Fran up to Sonoma? What's not to be missed on the way? Any great local faves, roadside stands, farms etc?

We thought about taking both sets of parents to French Laundry for their 40th wedding anniversary which is the reason we'll all be travelling together, but not sure if it's worth the hassle. We've been to Mr. Keller's "Per Se" here in NYC and although we like high end places much prefer rustic, unpretentious local hole in the wall spots. But it's still a possibility...

We'll be staying at the Fairmont in both San Fran and in Sonoma, so some places in close proximity would be much appreciated as well.

Basically what is NOT to be missed before returning to NYC.

Many Thanks,
lisa antinore

  1. ZenFoodist Jun 24, 2009 06:42 PM

    http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/16085

    And just so you all don' t think this New Yorker won't write up a trip report...

    11 Replies
    1. re: ZenFoodist
      Ruth Lafler Jun 24, 2009 10:00 PM

      **applause** Great trip report -- and you even managed to find it from ten years ago!

      I think you might be disappointed in Ton Kiang -- perhaps it might be better to leave the memory unsullied. Swan is unchanged, for good or for bad, as are Zuni and Chez Panisse. Classic? Old hat? Depends on your point of view. I'd say if you haven't been to Chez Panisse, you really ought to. Skip Aqua and Rose Pistola -- both of them are coasting on their reputations.

      French Laundry is a very different experience than Per Se, but I'm not sure it's worth it. Also, depending on when at the end of August you're going to be here it's almost too late to get reservations (two months to the date in advance, although if August 30/31 is a possibility, if you call on June 30 you can reserve for either day, doubling your chances). Since you're going to be in Sonoma rather than Napa, Cyrus is worth checking out -- some people like it better than French Laundry. There's actually plenty of great chow in Sonoma -- you might consider skipping Napa Valley entirely. Sonoma is a lot less touristy and has more variety. Do a search on Healdsburg, Santa Rosa, etc.

      What's not to be missed is the Ferry Plaza Farmers Market on Saturday morning. In August it should be amazing (although in some ways it's more amazing when it's not peak season and you can experience the glories of the year-round growing season).

      For something unique and very California, try Ubuntu (Bruni raved).

      1. re: Ruth Lafler
        ZenFoodist Jun 25, 2009 06:07 AM

        I will definitely check out Ubuntu. Some friends here have also reccomended A16, Laiola, and Cafe Tartine?

        We will skip Napa Valley entirely. Some people have said we should subtract one day in Sonoma and stay somewhere on the coast for a change of pace and more dining options. Agree or disagree? Is there some amazing pantheon of deliciousness that I will be missing that is just out of range?

        After some thought, I have decided that I am not even going to try for French Laundry as we are a party of 10 including my five year old son and my almost 2 year old niece ( who are well behaved and enjoy a good meal, I might add...)

        The Ferry Plaza Farmers' Market is on my "To Do" list- many thanks.

        Do YOU have any particular faves in Healdsburg or anywhere close to either of the two Fairmont properties?

        Thank You,
        lisa

        1. re: ZenFoodist
          JasmineG Jun 25, 2009 10:53 AM

          So the Tartine thing can be confusing: There is Tartine Bakery (in the Mission), a relatively small place that is a bakery mostly but has some sandwiches and tables inside, Bar Tartine (also in the Mission) a restaurant by the folks behind Tartine Bakery, and Tartine Cafe (in Hayes Valley) unrelated to the first two. The first two are highly recommended, the third one is not. Bar Tartine has been enjoyed by a lot of New Yorkers who visit.

          A16 and Laiola are great places to try, though Laiola might be better for a night when your party is smaller, since 10 people there would be a lot. A16 is good if you can reserve the back patio, which will be a much better environment, it can get really loud in there. Zuni and Chez Panisse are still good choices.

          As for Healdsburg, Cyrus is fantastic, and that would be a great anniversary place. Downtown Bakery is also great.

          1. re: JasmineG
            Robert Lauriston Jun 25, 2009 11:01 AM

            I wouldn't say Tartine Bakery & Cafe is mostly a bakery. I go there to buy bread, but most people in line ahead of me are always getting stuff to eat there.

            I would happily eat at Bar Tartine again any time. It would make my top 50 but not my top 20.

            I haven't heard anything about the unrelated Tartine Cafe Francais that made me want to go there.

            -----
            Tartine Bakery
            600 Guerrero St, San Francisco, CA 94110

            Bar Tartine
            561 Valencia Street, San Francisco, CA 94110

            Tartine Cafe Francais
            244 Gough St, San Francisco, CA 94102

          2. re: ZenFoodist
            swissgirlinsonoma Jun 27, 2009 02:57 PM

            As a long-time Sonoma County resident, I would definitely recommend a day or two out on the coast. It is an entirely different environment. The pretensions of the wine country slip away as you meander into the redwoods of "west county". On your way to the coast, about 15-20 minutes outside of Santa Rosa is the little hamlet of Occidental, nestled among vineyards, redwoods, and pastures of grazing sheep. Here you will find a lovely B&B (The Inn at Occidental). Chowhound worthy dining includes Bistro Des Copains, a quaint French bistro; Rocker Oysterfellers in Valley Ford (10 minutes down the coast); and Terrapin Creek Cafe in Bodega. Enjoy your stay and let the Chowhound community know your reviews!

            1. re: swissgirlinsonoma
              Melanie Wong Jun 27, 2009 03:05 PM

              I'd love to hear more about Terrapin Creek Cafe in Bodega Bay, haven't had a chance to try it yet. What's your favorite there?

              1. re: Melanie Wong
                swissgirlinsonoma Jul 2, 2009 09:00 PM

                We ate again at Terrapin Creek Cafe this past Sunday evening. Smallish menu with 7 or 8 starters and 5 mains courses including one vegetarian. The restaurant is owned by partners Andrew and Liya (I'm sorry I can't recall their last names). Liya is in charge in the open kitchen and Andrew works the front of the house serving dining guests with the help of a busser. We shared starters of beet salad (perfect except I would have like a few more beets in addition to the greens) and corn soup. For mains, we shared the pan roasted halibut and grilled ribeye steak. Both mains and corn soup were perfect. The only negative is the restaurant charges $1.50 for a basket of bread. The dining rooms are very pretty and seem much brighter than during the Seaweed era. A great place to stop in for dinner before leaving the Sonoma Coast.

                1. re: swissgirlinsonoma
                  Melanie Wong Jul 3, 2009 02:08 PM

                  Thanks for the report. I believe that Seaweed used to charge for bread as well.

                  -----
                  Terrapin Creek Cafe
                  1580 Eastshore Rd, Bodega Bay, CA 94923

              2. re: swissgirlinsonoma
                ZenFoodist Jun 28, 2009 08:34 AM

                Thank you so much, Swiss girl. As a non-wine drinker (!!!) the vineyards themselves are not of any particular interest to me. I'd much prefer to be near the sea and just do day-stuff in actual wine country. The issue is that we have a 5 year old and a two year old with us, so we need a kid-friendly hotel with a great pool that is NEAR awseome food.

                I ALWAYS share my feedback with my fellow 'hounds, no worries :)

              3. re: ZenFoodist
                maria lorraine Jun 29, 2009 01:32 PM

                Agree with Ruth here on skipping Napa Valley (and I live here!). I'd head directly to Healdsburg -- it's dripping with charm and without question the most charming city in vast Sonoma County. Great restos all around and plenty of kid activities. Wonderful town square.

                Cyrus is there. It's exquisite, and should be high up on your list. The French Laundry requires some planning, and perhaps a smaller group. You can skip Ubuntu too -- not that it's not worth going to, but it's not worth making the trek to Napa if you'll be in Healdsburg.

                I'd also highly recommend The Farmhouse Inn on River Road.

                While based in Healdsburg, you can drive the enchanting country roads that flank the Russian River out to the coast. You'll drive through redwoods, and there are some good restos along the way. You will see the lovely vineyards there, and even though you might not partake, others in your group may. Scenic in any case. Lots of great maps that will help you navigate available for free online.

                Do an in-depth search on Healdsburg. Search terms in addition to Healdsburg would be: Russian River, Downtown Creamery, Cyrus, Farmhouse Inn, Willi's Raw Bar, Ravenous, Dry Creek, Westside Road, Occidental, Freestone.

                Here's a fantastic thread with lots of ideas to get you started:
                http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/386481

                Be sure to check out
                www.wineroad.com/maps/ -- for maps
                http://www.farmtrails.org -- local artisan farmers, good for kid visits

                1. re: ZenFoodist
                  k
                  kmoises Jul 25, 2009 09:44 AM

                  Tartine Bakery (in the MIssion, SF) is an ABSOLUTE MUST! There might be a line on the weekends, but it is soo worth it. They have an unbelievably croque moussier and quiche as well as their famous morning buns. The seasonal fruit bread pudding is also delicious, as is their coffee. I think any pastry you try will be wonderful. We loved it so much we went back two days in a row...

            2. m
              ML8000 Jun 24, 2009 07:06 PM

              There's reports Ton Kiang has slipped a bit but it still might be okay. The reigning king of dim sum is Koi Palace, pricey and packed with long lines. There's also a few other places near SFO, The Kitchen, HK Flower Lounge. Might also try Shanghai Dumpling King (in the same general area as Ton Kiang) -- hole-in-the-wall-ish but excellent XLB (soup dumplings).

              Here's a great master list of lists that breaks down many things.

              http://www.chow.com/places_list/show/...

              3 Replies
              1. re: ML8000
                ZenFoodist Jun 25, 2009 06:08 AM

                Thank you for this link; I will check it out and narrow it down.

                1. re: ML8000
                  a
                  Armoise Jun 25, 2009 10:03 AM

                  I am a longtime fan of Ton Kiang, resistant to the reports of "slipping" but my last two visits have shifted me to the other camp. The dumplings, my biggest reason for preferring TonKiang over other dim sum houses, are tasteless. The fillings have no flavor, and more than a few were oversteamed. The Tao Meo (snowpea shoots) with garlic also lacked the previous savory pan-roasted whole smashed garlic cloves that made it superlative, instead just thick slices of garlic that seemed to add little garlic flavor to the dish.
                  And now they give Chinese mustard instead of the red chili-garlic sauce that is de rigueur for dim sum for me. When I requested it they brought a smooth chili paste that reminded me of Siracha, NOT the flavor I look for with dim sum.
                  Soft-shell crab was lost in the thickest crunchy batter that felt very heavy in my stomach.

                  I'm sad..

                  1. re: Armoise
                    Sarah Jun 25, 2009 05:34 PM

                    Alas, I have to agree. We were there today after a long hiatus due to their shrimp-driven dumplings. Again, or still, all their dumplings had shrimp in them! My friend had their siu mei and thought they were OK (but shrimp-heavy). The dao meo was good, but more muted. Best dishes were cha siew cheung fun (rice noodles), chicken feet and stuffed eggplant. Saddest of all, my favorite item, their roast duck, while still good, no longer has that special taste which elevated their duck to best of class. Oddly, many "big" dishes, bbq ribs, crispy calamari, etc. didn't come out until we were ready to leave, around 12:30.
                    Hopefully, their pork belly dish remains the stellar version I've always enjoyed.

                2. w
                  wally Jun 24, 2009 07:16 PM

                  Ton Kiang has moved since then. I also remember it then.

                  8 Replies
                  1. re: wally
                    ZenFoodist Jun 25, 2009 06:51 AM

                    I feel the need to include something that probably makes me very undeserving of a trip to Sonoma: in all of my 37 years, if I have had more than the equivalent of *one* glass of wine it would be A LOT. I don't drink, and on the rare occasions that I am in a drinking atmosphere I tend to order Frangelico on ice...or...HORRORS...a pina colada!. I know...loser! :)

                    1. re: ZenFoodist
                      Ruth Lafler Jun 25, 2009 12:35 PM

                      Then you might really like Cyrus:

                      "Even for a special night out, some patrons are abstaining from the hard stuff. At Cyrus, in Healdsburg, bar manager Scott Beattie has tried to adapt his drink menu accordingly. "We do so many wine pairings, it kind of sucks when one person is doing a pairing dinner and someone else is drinking iced tea all night," he says.

                      Beattie says he can create an alcohol-free version of any of his seasonal cocktails, and offers a nonalcoholic cocktail pairing with meals.

                      Whereas more traditional drinks like the cosmopolitan and martini don't work in a booze-free format, Beattie's complex libations are usually based on relatively neutral spirits like flavored vodkas or rum, then layered with fresh seasonal herbs, spices and juices.

                      His adaptation then is easy. "Instead of adding alcohol you add a little bit of sugar and fill it up with seltzer and/or natural soda," he says."

                      http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article...

                      1. re: Ruth Lafler
                        c
                        celeryroot Jun 26, 2009 12:15 PM

                        I don't think Beattie is at Cyrus anymore , unless he returned in the last month or two.

                        1. re: celeryroot
                          Ruth Lafler Jun 26, 2009 12:22 PM

                          Ah yes. I now vaguely recall something about him leaving -- I don't follow the movements of bar staff closely.

                          Still, I think Cyrus is a good option for them.

                          1. re: ZenFoodist
                            c
                            celeryroot Jun 26, 2009 03:25 PM

                            Cyrus is excellent ....It is also very nice to eat in the bar area if you do not wish to eat the tasting menu.

                            1. re: ZenFoodist
                              Robert Lauriston Jun 27, 2009 09:13 AM

                              I don't know about gangs, but I think downtown Healdsburg is nicer and more of a foodie destination than Boyes Hot Springs, which is where the Sonoma Mission Inn is located.

                              1. re: ZenFoodist
                                o
                                OldTimer Jun 27, 2009 04:26 PM

                                Cyrus is in the Hotel Mars in Healdburg. You might check it out. Healdsburg has much more to offer than Sonoma...not as crowded.

                        2. re: wally
                          Robert Lauriston Jun 25, 2009 09:32 AM

                          Ton Kiang hasn't moved since around 1995, when they opened the current location at 5821 Geary.

                        3. s
                          sonomajom Jun 28, 2009 08:31 PM

                          Sonoma is definitely less chic than Healsburg but also more authentic for all that
                          Food is good at Girl & Fig, El Dorado Kitchen, La Salette and Harvest Moon.
                          On the way from SF pick up some strawberries at the patch at corner of Watmaugh and Arnold Dr or even better if you're going through Kenwood pick some up at the strawberry patch there - just on Highway 12 after Kenwood winery.
                          if you're in Sonoma on a Tue plan to join the locals on the grass on the square and listen to the music and pick up some food from teh Tue evening Farmers' market to eat - ot dome of hte local prepared food - mexican, seafood, thai. I think you said you had a 5 yr old - she'll love it . All the kids dance around in front where hte musicians play and chase each other and have fun.

                          You'll have a good time whatever you chose to do in Sonoma county!

                          We've been to Ubuntu several times and the food is definitely unique and wonderful for all vegetarian - however I find it noisy. Last time there was even two musicians - trying to play some wonderful subtle indian music and competiting with the din it made things even worse.

                          1. bbulkow Jun 28, 2009 11:23 PM

                            I don't think you've gotten much coverage for san francisco yet. You certainly need to include some of the new places - ditch swan and aqua and rose pistola. Zuni still does a good job and is very SF, although there's a current thread about their good cocktails and oysters being less than previous.

                            I worry about recommending a hole-in-the-wall like, I don't know, Old Mandrin Islamic. It'd be a great thing if it was the two of you, but for a high-stakes 10-person thing, no way. Go read this week's thread on "current tandoor-loin", though. There's no hole in the wall place that can't be missed.

                            Onward. I worry Delfina's too small for 10, but I bet it would suit you. Coi's a common high-end rec, go check out the menu. NOPA's gotten great reviews and is fresh, a bit more relaxed. CAV's an underrated favorite. Aziza's gotten lots of good noise, but there's some serious grumbling this week about quality. I was just looking at Mission Street Food, a space with guest chefs every week. All the tasting menu places - Ritz/Carleton which people skip because it's "in a hotel" but it's great. There's a tasting menu thread around here if you like that kind of experience. Incanto should be considered. Gary Danko still does an excellent job. There's rumbling that the Cliff House is serving food over and above what they ever have, so have both view and food, a shocking coincidence. A16 is a reasonable choice, but I'm not sure it's Can't Miss.

                            If any of your party is nuts over coffee, Blue Bottle. It really is that good. On the snack front, Slocomb ice cream. Do not miss, even for an east-coaster. You've gotten the confusing story of the Tartines.

                            Dim Sum. If you're used to eating Dim Sum twice a week in flushing, your only real option is to go south down the peninsula. Which is likely too much of a hassle - like trying to get a manhattan party of ten out to flushing. Go read up, but realistically it isn't going to happen.

                            I haven't heard much about Michael Minna's new place, RN74. Waterbar/epic roasthouse hasn't gotten good recs. So there's New and there's New.

                            4 Replies
                            1. re: bbulkow
                              ZenFoodist Jun 29, 2009 10:18 AM

                              I'm loving you, bbulkow; CA ' hounds really deliver the goods :) Grazie!

                              1. re: ZenFoodist
                                bbulkow Jul 3, 2009 12:48 AM

                                Thank us by writing a trip report when you get home - hope it goes well!

                              2. re: bbulkow
                                Ruth Lafler Jun 29, 2009 11:32 AM

                                There were a few comments on RN74 when it first opened. Not very positive, along the lines of "expensive for what you get."

                                1. re: bbulkow
                                  k
                                  kmoises Jul 25, 2009 09:53 AM

                                  Also ate dinner at Gary Danko a few weeks ago and it was delicious. We did the 3-course tasting menu...the foie gras, scallops with a mushroom dust and pea puree, and the chocolate souffle. My boyfriend got the tuna tartare, filet mignon, and some type of cherry cheescake. Everything was amazing as well as the service. Ask the waiters to give you their list of good restaurants.

                                  Definitely check out the Ferry Building on Saturday for the farmer's market, ACME bread and cowgirl creamery for the cheese.

                                  We also ventured to Sausilito for the day and ate dinner at Sushi Ran. If you love sushi, this place is a MUST. Hands down the best sushi restaurant I've every been too, try the smoked hamachi dish...delicious.

                                2. b
                                  butch14 Jan 4, 2010 04:01 PM

                                  this reply is a little late but Ton Kiang is still great!!!! Don't miss it.

                                  -----
                                  Ton Kiang
                                  5821 Geary Blvd, San Francisco, CA 94121

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