Wouldn't it be great to get a Whole Foods Market in Montreal? Maybe we should make a concerted effort to write or e-mail them to open one up here. They are already present in Toronto and have had to translate labels, signs, etc. Maybe someone has some other ideas as to how we could convince them to open here.
loojoy
Jun 23, 2009 07:48PM
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I would like to see a Williams-Sonoma as well in Montreal. There are 4 in Toronto. I see the translation thing as a big issue.
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It's not necessarily the translation thing that's the issue - it's the different legal system. That has stopped many American companies from moving into Quebec. As well, many retailers that do quite well in Vancouver and Toronto might not find the same level of success here, due to the very different dynamics of the Quebec marketplace. Personally, I'd love to have a Whole Foods and Williams Sonoma here, instead of having to drive to Toronto or Burlington...
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There is a Whole Foods in Burlington?
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No, the closest is Toronto. Williams-Sonoma is in Burlington (and Toronto). There is, however, a store in Burlington called City Market, which is sort of like a smaller (much smaller) Whole Foods, with a great selection of local cheeses and meats.
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City Foods in Burlington is great. I'd take it over Whole Foods or Trader Joe's any day. If you're willing to drive 40 minutes further, Hunger Mountain Coop in Montpelier isn't bad either. City Foods has better fish though.
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There are probably several factors at play but I, too, doubt translation is one of them. Rumour had Whole Foods looking to set up shop here a few years ago (about the same time as Krispy Kreme, IIRC). My guess is that they didn't because of:
- the economics. WF, aka Whole Pay Cheque, is essentially an upscale market. Montreal is, by most measures, one of the poorest cities in North America. The closest thing we have to an upscale grocery chain, Cinq Saisons, is hardly going gangbusters. Over the years, various gourmet food shops have come and gone.
- the demographics. The situation's improving but there's still not a huge demand in Quebec for organic anything.
- the business plan. WF usually opens more than one store in a metro area. Where could they viably put two or three stores in greater Montreal? One of the reasons Cinq Saisons flies is because the stores are relatively small and located in posh neighbourhoods. Commercially zoned central city space for big boxes with large parking facilities, easy access and proximity to affluent neighbourhoods is virtually non-existent, though that could change if/when the rail yards between Outremont and TMR are developed.
- Quebec Inc. For years Loblaws -- a Canadian chain, for Pete's sake -- tried to break into the Quebec market and was stymied by Quebec's government-paragoverment-corporate troika (which, for some reason, gets all maître-chez-nousy when the subject is food). The only way Loblaws got around that was to acquire Provigo -- and even that transaction came with conditions and met with opposition.
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I agree with you loojoy. We lived in the DC area for several years before moving back to Montreal. WholeFoods had a great meat counter, excellent produce, organic foods and prepared foods. We loved that place. I also agree with souschef below on the Williams-Sonoma. Alas, the language laws in this province make big US stores stay away. In a way, its a good thing as we benefit from many local and mom and pop type places instead of places like TGIFridays or Applebees.
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As a frequent (but not frequent enough) visitor to Montreal from DC, I can tell you that you really are not missing much not having a Whole Foods. Sure they have nice stuff, and high prices to match, but it is not the end all be all. A Harris-Teeter is better (awesome produce, but earth-bound prices). You have Jean-Talon. What more do you want? I would gladly trade you our Whole Foods for your Jean-Talon.
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I agree chewfun. But for the DC area, compared to Safeway and Giant, WholeFoods i pretty awesome. The fact we have JTM and Atwater markets gives us an edge. But the farmers market in Dupont Circle is quite good.
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The Dupont Circle farmers market is quite small. The one in Alexandria at the Courthouse is pretty good. If you put all of the DC area farmers markets together they would not come close to One JTM.
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I agree, steph. The mom and pop places are so much better than the big box chain stores. Take a trip to Toronto and go to Williams-Sonoma. You should be good for the next year or so. This isn't a store you need to shop in every day, and it has none of the atmosphere of the independent places. Whole Foods is beautiful, but most people could never afford to shop there regularly.
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I have to say that I have never been to Whole Foods (The only thing I know of it is what I have seen on Top Chef). However, someone mentionned the nice butcher section and the fresh products. IMO the supermarket that does some of this is Adonis, the freshly roasted nuts, the butcher the varied high and low products, the fresh fruits and veggies, the nice pastries. It's actually quite nice and inexpensive. I would gladly seen more Adonis' around.
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I agree about Adonis. I'm not sure if it's been mentioned on CH, but a new Adonis is opening - or maybe it's already open? - at Place Vertu.
I went to the Whole Foods in Toronto once. Some nice things, but shockingly expensive, and though I go to TO at least once or twice a year, I've never been back. Maybe if I lived there it would be different, i.e. maybe it's the take-out meals, meat/fish counter that are the standouts - I don't know.
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The one in TO isn't as impressive as the ones in the US but you are right they are super expensive and I thought the TO store was even more so than the US ones for most items.
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Yeah, I went to one in Berkeley once and it was enormous.
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I am not against a Whole Foods but what I would really prefer is a Trader Joe's. Even if it opened within a 300 km radius, I would go once a month. Love that store!!
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I agree with the preference for Trader Joe's. Trader Joe's is awesome. It is where I do almost all of my shopping. Though originally from Southern California, the chain has been owned for many, many years by the German chain Aldi (though it is nothing at all like Aldi).
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The closest I can think of is the one in Boston - not too far off of 300 km.
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Boston is at least 5-6 h driving. I am not that desperate! LOL I was thinking more 3 hours to make it feasible on a monthly basis.
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Boston's around 5 1/2 hours - at least, when I drive... it's a nice drive too, but I wouldn't do it on a monthly basis either. But City Foods in Burlington is a nice substitute, as I mentioned above - just be careful about any amounts of cheese you bring back - there is apparently a limit to the dollar value of cheese that can be brought back into the country, regardless of your length of stay outside of Canada. But the Vermont cloth-wrapped cheddar is just sooo good...
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I would love a Trader Joe's just for their prices on Champagne.....but then LCBO and SAQ have a death grip on the booze business :(
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And after saving on the champagne, getting some of their black truffle cheese... perfection
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I do like black truffle cheese, but have not tried it at Trader Joe's.
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Hmmm... a lock on the booze business translates into effectively excluding TJs. Suddenly, I'm feeling more free-markety.
And (in good fun) Champagne? Champagne is for Hollywood starlets. The thinking man drinks prosecco :) And I've seen some good bottles come out of SAQ for $12-15.
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Trapiche also makes a very nice and cheapish Argentine rosé
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Well, I'm not a Hollywood starlet (wrong sex). I have been through a bunch of different Proseccos (Prosecci?) and have only recently found one I like, but can't remember the name - don't have my thinking cap on :) Have to contact the resto.
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There are a lot of TJs in the US that don't offer wine/alcohol.
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i was reading all the posts and was going to suggest trader joe's! i 100% agree hungryann
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Lived in Chicago for 5 years, a few blocks from a Whole Foods. Honestly, I am not sure how they could survive in Montreal, except maybe in the West End. I mean, WF was popular in Chicago because that was pretty much the only place where you could find some decent cheese and eatable baguette in a 5km radius!!! Prices were outrageous, and given the number of shopping options in many parts of Montreal, I cannot see why I would gain from a WF in this city. But I guess I may be the only one, since there are so many people on this board who would enjoy having one.
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I agree completely. There are tons of ACTUAL markets in Montreal where you can get fresh, organic and local food. The point of a Whole Foods, IMO, is to give people (who otherwise wouldn't have) access to a grocery store where these types of foods are available. The whole mentality of WF is local and organic, but isn't getting your food from the market down the street more in line with that than a superstore corporation? Don't get me wrong, WF is a fantastic store, I just don;t think that they have a place in Montreal. The West Island or Laval? Yes.
Also, the IGA in the village has just as good a selection and is just as nice as any WF I've ever been to.
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I haven't been to that new IGA yet. Glad to hear that they have a good selection. That is also useful to point out to visitors (visitors, this IGA is at Place Dupuis, right at Berri-UQAM métro).
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I was in Burlington yesterday and stoped by Onion River City Market Coop, AMAZING! This place is much better than WFM and way cheaper. They have a huge choice of bulk nuts, pasta, rice, spices...The curry cashews are to die for BTW!
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Bulk! This is something I miss. WF had the best bulk bins in the world. Where are the best bulk bins in Montreal? Spices are Anton's, but that's just spices. The breadth offered at WFM -- chocholate eveything, yogurt evertying, curry everything, almonds 20 ways. Bulk fig newtons.
By the way, I was at Anton's with friends doing the tourist thing, and I whipped out a digital camera, snapped two shots, and they were on me like I had shot the President. Made me erase the pictures.
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Do you mean Anatol's?
I don't want to criticise the guy who has been a purveyor of all things bulkish and is a hard-working small businessman, but he still makes me leave my shopping bag at the counter, though I've been shopping there for at least 30 years. Really, I'm nor interested in something as stupid as stealing from him
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If whole foods thought they could be profitable in Montreal, they would already be here; I doubt our economy could sustain a store like that with all the other food shopping alternatives we have.
I've never shopped in a Rachelle Berry store, yet it looks attractive when I've walked by and looked in. I think their concept is like whole foods but on a smaller scale.
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I do mean anatol's, thank you for the correction.
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We don't need more US stores that ship profits back to the U.S. I much prefer locally owned stores, or at least those headquartered in Canada.
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Most definitely agree, williej.
As for the West Island and Laval, some of the interesting "ethnic" places have been opening branches in those areas, including Adonis and Akhavan. (The latter has a large store in Pierrefonds). Adonis has outlets in Laval and Roxboro (boulevard des Sources) as well as the "original" store at the corner of Sauvé and l'Acadie (it did move a bit, to larger premises than before) and the market at Place-Vertu (open according to their site). http://www.adonisproducts.com/pages/s...
I'd love bin specials on wines as at Trader Joe's, but that is impossible in light of the monopoly situaiton here.
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Gosh, that would be nice, if such a store like WF existed in Quebec. But it doesn't.
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I moved to Montreal from the U.S. about six years ago. Before I came to Montreal I used to shop at Whole Foods occasionally as a treat -- I didn' t have the money to shop there regularly -- and I loved it. It was great to be able to get good quality meats, to get really nice produce, and to find fruits and vegetables that one never came across in other stores. It was sort of like an oasis and I was a huge fan.
Since moving to Montreal I have returned to Philadelphia for about 4 months and then last year to New York for about 6 months. During both those stays in the US I returned to Whole Foods and my experience was totally different. I was outraged by the prices. Who the h-ll do these guys think they are?! I wondered.
Let's talk Jean Talon. It's amazing. As far as I'm concerned only Parisians have it better. I sneer at the Dupont Circle farmer's market in DC. The Union Sq Market in NYC? Those stupid New Yorkers rave about it. It's a pathetic overpriced little collection of stands compared to Jean Talon. These are the same people who line up to get into Trader Joe's -- I'm not kidding. They really line up just to get in the store.
OK, so I'm spoiled when it comes to markets. Never mind.
So let's talk Cinq Saisons -- the stuff there is lovely. It's overpriced for Montreal but it's way less than what WH charges for their goods. Could Whole Foods compete? Probably not, in my view.
But it's not just Cinq Saisons. This city is overrun with amazing little stores that do better -- and way cheaper -- than Whole Foods. Latina market. Pricey, but amazing and still way less than Whole Foods.
Even little joints like Exofruits on Côte des Neiges. Or even Fruiterie Mile End on Parc. In my view these places can hold their own against WF and they are probably 1/3 of the price.
You want meats? I'm sure there are threads on this board that compare the finer points of a dozen outstanding butchers. Fish? Same goes for the magnificent poissoneries around the city.
Then there are more specialized joints. Adonis has been mentioned. Vastly superior for many of the things WF would want to sell and far cheaper. Akhavan. Anatol. Etc. etc.
No, in my view Whole Foods would be crazy to open here. I think they'd get laughed out of the city. People already complain about prices at JT. The reason WF does well elsewhere -- and they're not doing nearly as well as they used to -- is because they open in cities where people have lots of money and little choice and are willing to be raked over the coals to get half-decent stuff. Here, we have a tremendous plethora of incredible food options. And we get it all cheaply.
If Whole Foods doesn't open in Montreal my guess is that it's not because of language or democraphics or economics, but rather because we've already got better than what Whole Foods has to offer. I'm glad they stay away.
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I see your point but I think that a big part of the appeal of WF is that it's one stop shopping for quality goods. Most people I know don't have the time nor the desire to spend a whole day going to the butcher, baker, farmer's market, etc
I am currently in Florida and have went twice to WF. The prices are more reasonable than they used to be; they have probably responded to the poor economy by lowering their prices. The prepared foods counter is delightful. Since we don't always want to eat in restaurants during our vacation, WF offers healthy, "home-cooked" options that are excellent: soups, stir-fries, roast meats, etc
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heh i just posted a similar message. :)
hungryann, so many of our WF-like stores carry the exact same variety, and usually when not, it's all available in the same neighborhood. See, we still have real neighborhoods with real shops. WF exist in neighborhoods where they don't. They are surrounded by cafés, restaurants, mobile phone outlets and such.
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Why would we need a Whole Foods? Montreal has an awesome selection of small, independant grocery stores that easily rival, I'd even say beat, Whole Foods.
(I travel alot, usually staying in the city for extended periods. I agree that having a Whole Foods nearby when I am in Camden, the East Village or the Mission is great, because those places just don't have the kind of food culture and stores to service it as we have here.
Montreal doesn't have a Whole Foods... because we don't need one. I don't mean that in any snobby way: purely socio-economic. :)
Go check out:
Eden (inside La Cité, parc Ave corner Pricne Arthur)
Latina, St-Viateur
Mont Royal east is peppered with excellent stores of all kinds (Valmont springs to mind)
Milano, St-Laurnet Blvd in Little Italy
not to mention hundreds of slightly "lower scale" all purpose and/or ethnic grocery stores, and the two markets, Jean Talon and Atwater.
This very fact is one of the things I appreciate above all else here... and will miss dearly come next month. :( (moving away for some time)
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I just moved from California this summer, I must admit the only thing I miss about WFs is the customer service. The training is excellent, and no where else in the States have I found more cheerful, helpful, and knowledgeable staff time and again. Sure, there's the occasional nice staffer you'll find at other markets but it's almost cult-like at WF. Even at their new store in Hawaii (where customer service can be uh...sketchy) I had a great time pointing out the $50/lb coffee and $40/lb scallops to my parents who live in the neighborhood. Now whether they will shop there all the time...that's another story.
BUT I would much prefer a TJs to be available in Montreal. The selection and prices can't be beat...they even had a McCallan's 18 yr old for around $25! And they constantly brought out new products (but the flip side being you had to stock up on something you loved since there's no guarantee they'd keep on stocking it).
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Alcohol will not be sold at TJ if they ever come here.
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No one mentioned PA in the "three cheers for local montreal supermarkets."
I agree that we need more bulk-food bin-sections in Montreal stores. This concept rose up here in the 70s and slowly died since, except for hyper-priced health-food stored like rachel-bery. (now corporate-owned doncha know). And volume purchase discount prices co-op stores morphed into Club Price. There's a economic-history doctorate dissertation in here somewhere.
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Aii-i -- I *SO* agree with all the posts saying, essentially, 'Why would we need WF here'? I have just moved from West LA, within walking distance of the old Mrs Gooch's, which WF eventually bought out. Mrs. Gooch's essentially commercialized "whole foods" (in the 80's-90's), making this sort of enterprise commercially viable on a larger scale. Whole Foods bought them (Mrs Gooch) out long before they cottoned on to the skull-duggery. They always were, back in their glory-gobbling-growth days, always into munching up small local coops, undercutting their prices and stamping out competitors right and left. The business practices of this "earth-friendly" supergiant just make my hair positively curl. I have a hard time reading the name without feeling physically ill.
In contrast, as so many have noted, Montreal seems to have an absolutely amazing variety of ... real food. Real fruit. Real cheese. Good taste all over the place. Why ever would anyone want to replace it with corporate immorality and to top it off, practically no organics, or at least "whole food" organics. At outlandish prices. If you actually survey their fruits and vegetables you'll find apples and carrots that are organic. And some kale maybe. Maybe one or two other token "easy" fruits, almost invariably from a South American country. Anyway -- the point here isn't to light into WF, I just have a really hard time not teeing off on them. The point is rather, that Mtl has it better, cheaper, more interestingly, more socially and politically correctly ... and more charmingly. While I am admittedly as green behind the ears as they come regarding customs here, I cannot fathom what a WF could possibly bring to your community.
Count your blessings this Gargon hasn't invaded your space. yet.
TJ's, BTW, is another story altogether. I agree it's kinda the "walmart of the food world", but I still like shopping there anyway. At least they don't herald bogus claims; they are what they are.
If any are skeptical of my criticism of WF, it's been gratifying to read a lot of recent "outings" about the place. Google it all! And check out their CEO's recent outing as to his political leanings. His cretan-ness has long been known among those who care, but he recently outed himself in the Wall Street Journal which has been really entertaining!
I can't wait to check out so many of the nifty places mentioned in this thread. It would be great if someone would link to them and make one of those great listings on the right-hand side of the thread. TIA if it's you who does it; I'll try to get to it after finishing with all the bureaucracy of moving!
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aliris, I'm glad to read your detailed post. I know someone who lives in a city in the southern US and he can't afford to shop at WF although he works full-time and has no children. And there is practically nothing but unhealthy junk in the supermarkets he can afford to shop in. At least here people without much money can access a decent diet. The segmentation of the US food market and the unavailability of healthy food (along with transport and urbanism patterns) contribute to severe obesity and poor health.
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Actually, the not-even 'popularity', but positive lock-step requirement of shopping at WF in WLA is utterly mystifying. The store is more expensive than its competitors by a factor of at least 1.2 I'd say, depending on the item, on up to x3 or x4. Except for the occasional loss-leaders. And yet, their parking lots are stuffed to the I'll-kill-you-for-that-parking-space full. Further compounding the mystery: few are actually really buying very much. This seems to vary between locations, but I'm guessing at least 80% of their trips through the register are for just a handful of items. Yet the store is bursting with *stuff*. What happens to it all? Why would you even go to WF to buy just, say, a coke? But that's what legions do. Except it often has a 'whole-er food' name than "Coke".
Anyway, sorry for the continuing rant but the thing is, IMHO WF is just all about, in some utterly weird way, being *seen*. That's all I can figure about the place. It's about and out of a culture that seems to me, in my 3 days observing of Mtl, completely foreign to this place. Montreal seems to me to be not at all about what you are wearing and where you are conscious of yourself actually, say, shopping. I say this because I've never really either understood the moniker about "being seen", because it never seems to me as if anyone actually notices or cares where another goes. It's the person, the shopper themself who must care about the image of where they imagine themselves mincing across the parking lot of? I dunno. As I say, it's all completely mystifying.
In Mtl I see a steady stream of people into small corner grocers buying a steady stream of stuff, much of which truly is local-ish (Canadian at least) and seasonal and even available at special prices depending on, say, ripeness. This just doesn't happen at mega-chains. And the result is cultural sterility (down south, where no one knows or cares what is being sold vs. what is being claimed to be being sold). IMHO.
Sorry to go on. I just don't really think it's possible to scream loud enough in defense of the plethora of good --literally -- taste that you've got going here. Hang on to it. *tightly*!!!
Truthfully, the best articulation I've seen is in "Defense of Food" in which the misleading verdancy of organic milk boxes is described -- the whole WF experience, says Michael Pallen, is about art and fantasy. Well, there seem to be a ton of interesting art stores in the old section of town so that should keep you without resorting to fantasizing about the pastures depicted on milk boxes. I prefer to close my eyes and sense the flavor rather than open them and imagine it. YMMV.
(BTW, this only barely scratches the surface of my objections to WF!!!!)
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I think I love you
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The link feature is no longer functionnal for Montreal.
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I think it's down for everyone. http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/640466
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The last thing we need in Montreal is another supermarket chain. We need to increase support to smaller grocery stores owned by locals.
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I spent a couple of years in the States, and shopped a lot at Whole Foods. I liked the concept, I liked the products, and I still miss some of the products very much, like the applewood smoked bacon, some of the really great American artisanal cheeses and some really great deals I got on some rare wines. But I can see why people called it "whole paycheck", it was crazy expensive. I agree with the other posters that we don't actually need a WF in Montreal, we have a lot of really great options that are much cheaper as well. I spend way less here on groceries, and we have a really great (but different) selection of products.
Yeah I miss a few things. When I am in the States, I do like to go and browse in WF for fun. But no regrets on being back in Montreal for the most part, I'd say we have it pretty good.
Something I really miss: good heirloom tomatoes, good fried chicken and delicious peaches. But that is not a WF issue.
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I agree. It is just a supermarket. It has some great aspects. it has some poor aspects. The ground is sufficiently covered in Montreal for it not to be necessary.
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