HOME > Chowhound > Las Vegas >

Corkage Disappointment in Vegas

m
mcgrath Jun 18, 2009 01:28 PM

I love great food and great wine. I'm a fairly serious wine collector (500+ bottles) and have several Big Occasion wines I like to break out a few times a year.

My wife and I will celebrate our 39th anniversary this weekend in Vegas and had our heart set on dining at Carnevino for the first time. We've dined at several other Batali properties in L.V. and N.Y. over 10+ years and have nothing but respect for the food and ambience these properties are able to produce consistently.

We've brought in special bottles with no problem at most high end restaurants, including Joel Rubuchon. We had reservations at Carnevino. I thought I'd best call ahead to make sure it was ok to bring in a special bottle (2002 Sine Qua Non "Just for the Love Of It" Syrah), but was told no. No exceptions no matter the wine or the event.

I canceled and called CUT. They graciously said they usually don't allow this, but for a special bottle and a special event, they'd be happy to make an exception.

I understand all the restaurateur arguments against BYOB, and Mario obviously knows how to run a restaurant as well as anyone. Not trying to tell anyone how to run their business. But under these circumstances, it's just really disappointing that Carnevino has such a rigid policy while other, equally high profile places, are able to make exceptions in certain cases.

  1. Click to Upload a photo (10 MB limit)
Delete
  1. Ruth Lafler RE: mcgrath Jun 18, 2009 01:59 PM

    Rigid policies are always poor practice in a customer-service business, even more so in these times. In this case, it was their loss -- literally! Have a great anniversary!

    9 Replies
    1. re: Ruth Lafler
      azbirdiemaker RE: Ruth Lafler Jun 19, 2009 02:05 AM

      I disagree, and here's why ...

      If a restaurant has a policy, in this case - corkage not accepted, then why should it buckle? Yes, there are special occasions but if every Tom, Dick, and Harry got wind of said restaurant buckling with the mention of a "special event" ( I'm not suggesting that you're bending the truth ) ... then wouldn't said restaurant be open to being taken advantage of?

      Yes, you would expect a restaurant of reputable caliber to acknowledge such a special occasion and make an exception but ( and just playing Devil's Advocate here ) how is that restaurant to know that it truly is a special occasion and they aren't getting hornswoggled?

      I'm just saying.

      If an establishment has a corkage fee ( and whether or not that's a fair practice is a whole other discussion ... ) then it's my opinion that it shouldn't bend the rules unless it's a prior ( ie: regular ) guest with a history at the restaurant. Then, and only then IMO, should the restaurant give it some thought.

      Everyone knows that the liquor ( wine, beer, spirts, etc. ) is where the restaurant makes most of it's money. Taken to the extreme, if everyone were allowed to bring in their own beverages without compensation, then the restaurant makes little to no money. Because of this, most of the upper echelon restaurants won't allow it no matter who it is. That's because they are making almost nothing on the food.

      Business is business.

      Again, I'm just saying.

      1. re: azbirdiemaker
        Ruth Lafler RE: azbirdiemaker Jun 19, 2009 07:15 AM

        Right. Business is business. This restaurant just lost a customer -- how is that good business?

        When I went through customer service training many moons ago, they emphasized to us that a customer who has a bad experience will tell an average of, I think it was, nine people. That was before the internet. Now, someone can come on chowhound, or yelp, and tell the world. Even if only a tiny fraction of the people who read their complaint act on it, that's bad for business.

        If every Tom, Dick and Harry was lying to the restaurant in order to bring in their own wine, then that would be the time to institute the policy. But my sense is, the vast majority of restaurant patrons aren't interested in bringing their own wine. And yes, I know most restaurants make most of their profit off alcohol sales, but this restaurant lost a customer forever, and that's worth more than the profit off one bottle of wine. Furthermore, I'm willing to bet that wine lovers like Mr. Mcgrath and his wife would have ordered more wine -- maybe some champagne to celebrate, or a dessert wine -- or maybe some cocktails.

        I was unaware that Nevada doesn't allow corkage, which does change my opinion slightly. However, they could have offered to allow the customer to bring a special bottle if he also buys a bottle off their list -- waiving corkage on a bottle for a bottle purchased from the restaurant is a fairly common practice among restaurants that do charge corkage. In Nevada you can take the open bottle "home" with you, so ordering more than you wanted to consume at the time wouldn't be a hardship.

        1. re: Ruth Lafler
          m
          mcgrath RE: Ruth Lafler Jun 19, 2009 07:49 AM

          I didn't want to leave the impression that CUT wasn't charging a corkage fee. Their policy is $50, or they'll waive the fee if another bottle is purchased off the list. We'll probably buy something off the list as well--after all, this IS our anniversay!

          I don't bat an eye at $50 corkage, or even the $100 I paid at Per Se in NYC. The wine I typically bring in to fine restaurants is high end, well aged, and something comparable would cost upwards of $500 on the list if available at all. I'm well aware that restaurants make their profit on the wine, which is another reason I don't begrudge a high corkage. Happy to pay it.

          I think a reasonable policy for restaurateurs of high end restaurants would be to do just what CUT is doing in my case: charge a relatively high corkage to compensate for the lost profit on not ordering off the list, but waive that if another bottle is ordered off the list. This would keep people from bringing in cheap wine just to save a few bucks and the restaurant has a happy customer and wine profits. (By the way, as I posted below, I do take issue with the statement that corkage is illegal in Nevada--my experience over many years suggests its not)

          1. re: mcgrath
            Ruth Lafler RE: mcgrath Jun 19, 2009 08:47 AM

            As I said, even if we take as fact that charging corkage is illegal, they could have offered a quid pro quo of allowing you to bring a bottle if you buy a bottle -- that would technically not be charging corkage.

            Someone should forward this thread to the corporate offices of B&B.

          2. re: Ruth Lafler
            azbirdiemaker RE: Ruth Lafler Jun 19, 2009 04:21 PM

            "If every Tom, Dick and Harry was lying to the restaurant in order to bring in their own wine, then that would be the time to institute the policy."

            Well who's to say that isn't how it went down? So perhaps they instituted the policy because of said example.

            Again, I'm just saying.

            You say yourself that's how it should go ... so if that were the case, then would your opinion of this particular scenario change? What if the 2002 Sine Qua Non "Just for the Love Of It" Syrah was on their wine list. Should they still allow it to be brought in from outside?

            Corkage is not illegal in Las Vegas ( I can't speak for all of Nevada ), but a lot of restaurants don't allow corkage, which is to say bringing in your own wine.

            As I stated before, debate on the practice of charging a fee for this corkage or other such compensation is a whole other topic.

            1. re: azbirdiemaker
              Ruth Lafler RE: azbirdiemaker Jun 19, 2009 04:37 PM

              It's never acceptible to bring a wine to a restaurant if the same wine is on their wine list.

              1. re: azbirdiemaker
                m
                mcgrath RE: azbirdiemaker Jun 19, 2009 05:59 PM

                Agree completely with Ruth; I would never bring in a wine that's on the restaurant's list. Or if I hadn't checked the list ahead of time, would immediately agree not to open the wine if I find out once seated that they had it on their list.

                I usually check ahead, and did in the case of Carnevino. They had two vintages, I believe, of SQN wine, both too young to drink, and both at just under $400. That's the problem with most wine lists, even in upscale places like Carnevino: great bottlings, huge prices, and nearly all way too young to drink.

                1. re: mcgrath
                  azbirdiemaker RE: mcgrath Jun 19, 2009 11:37 PM

                  I agree with that point also ... which is sort of where I was going with it.

                  I hate to be on the other end of the debate here but I'm in the business and I've seen the entire gamut of "corkage" conversation.

                  My question to you is this ... will you check out Carnevino in the future or does this one event sour you from the restaurant altogether?

                  1. re: azbirdiemaker
                    m
                    mcgrath RE: azbirdiemaker Jun 20, 2009 08:02 AM

                    I suspect everyone has been victimized by a restaurant (poor service, rudeness, etc) prompting vows never to return. This wasn't the case for me with Carnevino. I was politely but firmly informed by the young woman who answered the phone that wine could not be brought in, whether or not the wine or the event was special. So no, I made no "never again" vows.

                    As a practical matter, though, I can't see myself dining there. For me, it's a "special occasion" kind of place, and as I stated above, on special occasions I like to bring in a fine bottle from my own cellar. I live in San Diego, only get to L.V. a few times a year, and with so many other great spots there that will allow corkage, there'd probably be no reason to choose Carnevino.

        2. k
          kjs RE: mcgrath Jun 18, 2009 08:49 PM

          that's very disappointing. to think i get to freeload a meal this coming week and i told the host this was one of the places i wanted to try - i have 2nd thoughts now.

          1. d
            Dave Feldman RE: mcgrath Jun 18, 2009 11:34 PM

            How would you feel if the restaurant charged a corkage fee equivalent to what its profit would be on a comparable bottle?

            4 Replies
            1. re: Dave Feldman
              m
              mcgrath RE: Dave Feldman Jun 20, 2009 08:17 AM

              The simple answer to your question, Dave, is I wouldn't feel so good. The SQN's Carnevino has on their list cost them $125 and they're listed for $385, so, hypothetically, a corkage of $260 wouldn't set too well under any circumstances. However, I'd be happy to pay a corkage equal to their profit on a $150 bottle of wine, which I think is probably the great majority of what they sell.

              1. re: mcgrath
                Ruth Lafler RE: mcgrath Jun 20, 2009 08:40 AM

                The difference between the cost and the wine list price isn't all profit. There's quite a bit of overhead that is directly and specifically related to developing and maintaining a wine cellar (as I'm sure Mr. McGrath knows). Among other things, you have a substantial amount of capital tied up in inventory. There are special storage needs and a large amount of dedicated space (rent is calculated by the square foot), special serveware (fine crystal, decanters, etc.), training for your staff in the qualities of the various wines and how to serve them, employing a sommelier, maintaining an up-to-date list, etc. That's why I'm not nearly as incensed by the typical 3x retail mark-up for wine as I am by the 6x (or more) mark-up for bottled water, which entails none of those costs.

                1. re: Ruth Lafler
                  m
                  mcgrath RE: Ruth Lafler Jun 20, 2009 09:44 AM

                  At the risk of devolving into a discussion of wine list pricing and corkage fees in general....I look at bottles of wine a little like race horses. The cheap plater eats the same amount and takes up the same amount of space as the multi-million dollar superstar. That's why the normal 3x markup seems out of whack when applied to a bottle whose cost to the restaurateur is $100 the same as one costing $10. Any way you look at it, the customer who buys the more expensive wine is paying 10 times more in markup than one who buys the cheap wine. In responding to this, restaurateurs might well point out that another big part of their overhead is paying for bottles that are sent back by the customer, a cost to them that can only be recouped by a consistent 3x markup on all wine. As a customer, I've wondered what percentage of sent back wine is due to legitimately bad bottles versus perfectly good juice whose taste the diner just doesn't care for. I'm not thrilled as a customer by helping finance the latter category with 3x markups on expensive wine. And, as a final thought, I'd point out that allowing folks to bring in their own wine eliminates this particular headache for restaurateurs altogether.

                  Now, I'm off to Vegas!

                2. re: mcgrath
                  d
                  Dave Feldman RE: mcgrath Jun 22, 2009 09:04 PM

                  Thanks for your honest reply. I feel that both you and Carnevino did nothing wrong, and I think you set it up honestly by indicating that the restaurant was polite but firm in its response. I think you have a reason to be disappointed, but like AZ, I don't think the restaurant has done anything wrong. It's a complicated issue, much discussed on Chowhound. Luckily, this discussion has been more civilized than most!

              2. e
                Eric RE: mcgrath Jun 19, 2009 06:07 AM

                Corkage is actually illegal in Nevada. A well known local French restaurant, that also has a well known wine shop attached to the restaurant, was recently cited for allowing corkage.

                3 Replies
                1. re: Eric
                  Larry RE: Eric Jun 19, 2009 07:30 AM

                  Are you sure? There's a similar thread (from June 2009) at John Curtas' site, where he concludes that corkage is illegal in the city of Las Vegas, but NOT in unincorporated Clark County, i.e., The Strip.

                  1. re: Larry
                    hohokam RE: Larry Jun 19, 2009 07:42 AM

                    I just read the post you're referring to, and it seems that there's enough ambiguity in the regulations to give a licensee pause, whether s/he is located within LV city limits or not. According to the author, the City of Las Vegas views charging of corkage fees as being a violation not only of local ordinances, but also of Nevada state law.

                    http://www.eatinglv.com/2008/07/corka...

                  2. re: Eric
                    m
                    mcgrath RE: Eric Jun 19, 2009 07:38 AM

                    "Corkage is actually illegal in Nevada".

                    I must take issue with this. I've literally brought my own wine into at least a dozen high end L.V. restaurants over the years. I typically call ahead to check the fee and am usually given the policy immediately, suggesting it's a pretty common question. I'd need to examine the circumstances of the case you've quoted, Eric, and do further research, to accept that it's actually illegal.

                  3. mtngirlnv RE: mcgrath Jun 19, 2009 01:33 PM

                    Corkage is NOT illegal here, and this is after discussions with the Nevada Restaurant Association. Which is good, because we've been doing it for years. I too, agree that a higher corkage fee keeps people from bringing in a bottle of KJ to save a buck (which I have seen, sadly). The sommelier at most places will stop by and we will offer up a glass to him. They always refuse but always take a taste. But we are bringing wine that isn't on their list, nor likely to be available in the city.

                    1. Veggo RE: mcgrath Jun 19, 2009 02:14 PM

                      I have experienced the Vegas scene for 35 years. It used to be fun. It has devolved into the most impersonal venue in the world, but with good, hyper-priced food. Not allowing corkage for a very special event is the penultimate of greed and detachment. But that is Vegas. Whine to Oscar. They are shooting their feet in troubled times.

                      2 Replies
                      1. re: Veggo
                        Ruth Lafler RE: Veggo Jun 19, 2009 03:02 PM

                        So if that's the penultimate, what's the ultimate?

                        1. re: Ruth Lafler
                          Veggo RE: Ruth Lafler Jun 19, 2009 08:09 PM

                          Death by garlic.

                      2. m
                        mcgrath RE: mcgrath Jun 23, 2009 03:35 PM

                        So, to conclude this thread on a positive note....dinner at CUT was great. I turned in my wine an hour ahead and asked them to open and decant it for me, which they did happily. We got a very nice corner table and service was impeccable throughout the meal. (Makes me wonder if someone at CUT might have seen this thread!)

                        We bought an inexpensive bottle of white wine off the list and corkage was waived. I splurged, getting the Japanese Kobe N.Y. Steak and it was an other-worldly beefeating experience. My wife got the Top Sirloin tasting of Prime U.S., American wagyu and Japanese Kobe, and it was interesting and good, but not as good as my New York.

                        One funny aside: I asked our waiter how often Wolfgang himself drops in. He said once every few months, usually when he has some other event in town. Apparently, Chef Puck is real good about working the dining room crowd, stopping at tables, signing autographs, etc. And even though he just sticks his head in the kitchen, and touches nothing, he always makes sure that he has a white towel draped over his shoulder while making the rounds, perhaps to leave the impression that he's actually doing some cooking. I got a kick out of that.

                        4 Replies
                        1. re: mcgrath
                          d
                          Dave Feldman RE: mcgrath Jun 23, 2009 04:11 PM

                          Glad there was a happy ending. Thanks for reporting back.

                          1. re: mcgrath
                            SDGourmand RE: mcgrath Jun 24, 2009 07:37 AM

                            You can bring wine into Batali restaurants as long as it's Bastianich wine. That's what they said to me anyway.

                            1. re: mcgrath
                              k
                              kjs RE: mcgrath Jun 24, 2009 12:51 PM

                              I recently saw Chef Puck at his Beverly Hills restaurant making the rounds in the dining room - i tell ya, i think he located the fountain of youth - the guy looked great ( not sure how old he is ) and i'll be damned, he did have a nice clean white towel draped over his shoulder !

                              As to the wine issue - ah heck with it, i'm off to lunch !

                              1. re: mcgrath
                                c
                                chrismurphy92 RE: mcgrath Jun 26, 2009 06:46 PM

                                I had dinner at CUT 2 nights ago for my 40th birthday. The food was outstanding as was the service.

                              2. Bill Hunt RE: mcgrath Jun 26, 2009 08:44 PM

                                What are the exact laws, regarding BYOW in Las Vegas? States differ. Counties differ, and municipalities differ.

                                Could it be that one restaurant decided to "break the law," while another stood by it?

                                Recently in Maui, I found myself with 2 DRC's and a Le Montrachet. We were headed to the Mainland the next evening, and had not gotten to share these wines with our guests from Maui, because their new home flooded from the rains, and they were a day late. I called, and was informed that in Maui County, it was totally forbidden, regardless of the wines and their absence on any wine list on Maui. OK, I ended up buying some Turleys, that I could not get, though I am on the list, and at a fair price, and having the whole bunch shipped back to the Mainland. Just weeks later, a poster on the Elsewhere in America board told us that he was invited to bring his wines for BYOW on Maui. OK, it was a different restaurant, and they probably decided to "chance it."

                                I hardly ever even consider BYOW, and never away from home, with this one exception. However I do know that the laws differ, place to place.

                                Hunt

                                4 Replies
                                1. re: Bill Hunt
                                  m
                                  mcgrath RE: Bill Hunt Jun 27, 2009 10:44 AM

                                  Hey Hunt, thanks for chiming in. I'm jealous. Someday I hope to "find myself" on Maui with some DRC's and Le Montrachet!

                                  I'm reasonably sure corkage is not illegal on the Strip in Vegas. Earlier in this thread that subject was touched upon and I believe one poster contacted the Nev. Restaurant Assn. which asserted charging corkage for customer wine is OK and legal.

                                  Moreover, my own experiences at Vegas restaurants over the years backs this up. Most high end restaurants I've contacted prior to coming in cheerfully state their corkage policy, and only a few have said no, we don't do that. Significantly, I think, those who say no have never said its illegal, just that it's not their policy.

                                  1. re: mcgrath
                                    Veggo RE: mcgrath Jun 27, 2009 04:34 PM

                                    This is getting funny. Practically nothing is illegal in Vegas. If I cited any of numerous personal anecdotes to buttress my thesis, I would be... you know..D'd
                                    I applaud Oscar Goodman, the perfect Mayor for a unique job.
                                    Almost everything is legal in Vegas ....but.....ya gotta paaay to plaaay.

                                  2. re: Bill Hunt
                                    JK Grence the Cosmic Jester RE: Bill Hunt Jun 27, 2009 11:57 AM

                                    I was reading all over the place to try and find anything about corkage in Vegas. Unlike here in AZ, there is no state liquor board in Nevada. Any laws regarding liquor consumption are made at either the county or city level. From what I can tell, the corkage laws were done by the City of Las Vegas, so corkage is illegal in Las Vegas. However, there's a little something about the Las Vegas Strip... the vast majority of it isn't in Las Vegas. Everything from the Wynn/Encore and Fashion Show Mall south to past McCarran Airport is in the unincorporated town of Paradise. So, anything in Paradise is only regulated by the laws of Clark County. There may be corkage laws in Clark County, but enforcement is lax to say the least if there are.

                                    1. re: JK Grence the Cosmic Jester
                                      Bill Hunt RE: JK Grence the Cosmic Jester Jun 27, 2009 03:42 PM

                                      Interesting, and thanks for the info.

                                      Maybe it's been because of the places that I have lived, and traveled to, I do try to get the info, before even inquiring. However, as BYOW is not something that I normally do, I have to admit that I have little real knowledge.

                                      The deal on Maui surprised me. On most other islands, we had encountered some good rules, regarding wines. Hawai`i was the first place, where a high-end restaurant in a resort offered to seal our open bottles and have them delivered to our room. More places have now adopted similar attitudes. One restaurant stored our bottles with a nitrogen purge, and presented them, when asked, for each meal - nice touch.

                                      Now, I grew up on the Mississippi Gulf Coast. At that time, there were basically three laws on the books, regarding alcohol:

                                      1.) there can be no alcohol consumed, purchased or sold in Mississippi
                                      2.) all alcohol that is consumed, purchased or sold in Mississippi must have a tax paid to the county Tax Collector (the Sheriff in those days)
                                      3.) anyone who consumes, purchases or sells any alcohol must be 18 years of age

                                      If one reads these, they'll see a definite paradox from #1 to the other two. This all changed in about 1965, when there was a total moritorium on alcohol sales and a referendum vote. Many counties went dry. Some went wet, so law #1 went away for them. Stipulations were put into place on the "where," the "when" and the "to whom" aspects of alcohol.

                                      Now, New Orleans was just down the highway. There, no laws stipulated much of anything, regarding alcohol, but "Laissez les bon temps roulez." One could buy almost anything (Absinthe with wormwood oil had been outlawed in the US), almost any time, and almost anywhere. If one could walk to the bar, they were likely to be served.

                                      Next, we encountered the laws in the Carolinas. I'd already come to know the term "ABC Store," as these had been put into place in Mississippi, but I was not ready for the various stipulations. We saw ABC-On, ABC-Off and ABC- On/Off. Took a while to get my head around that.

                                      Moved to Colorado, and was almost jailed early on, when I walked out of a bar in Aspen with a can of Coors in my hand. Two deputies jumped on me, as though I had an AK-47 in my hand. Heck, in New Orleans, one walked from bar to bar with their drink (the anti-glass laws had yet to be enacted). No one thought a wit about it. I was walking out onto the Hyman St. Mall, which is not totally unlike some of the streets in the FQ in NOLA. Well, I learned about CO liquor laws that night. In CO, we never encountered an issue with BYOW, though we seldom availed ourselves of the openess of these.

                                      Moved to AZ and found out all about restaurant seating, local laws on liquor licenses, etc.

                                      Found out that the county of Maui is totally different than O`ahu, Hawai`i and Kaua`i. Hey, who knew?

                                      Of course, even without specific laws on BYOW, a particular restaurant can set their own rules, and apply them, as they see fit.

                                      I would anticipate that were Robin Williams and I dining at the same restaurant and each called up regarding BYOW, the answers could easily be different.

                                      It pays to ask and maybe even be specific about the wines that one hopes to bring.

                                      Hunt

                                  Show Hidden Posts