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My War on Banh Mi (West End)

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Suggest_Banh Jun 8, 2009 12:05 PM

Banh Mi is booming, and a lot of people have bought into the burgeoning cultural cachet of these mysterious little sandwiches. New York City, for example, has seen the widespread gentrification of Banh Mi, and—like oversize novelty eyewear—the phenomenon may have reached saturation:

http://eater.com/archives/2009/04/pop...

I certainly wouldn't visit an upscale resto offering a Banh Mi which is actually duck confit on a flaxseed torpedo roll, but to my knowledge these "innovations" have not yet made it to Toronto, nor do they represent the Banh Mi that so many Chowhound types seem to be fond of. We are talking whole-in-the-wall, real-deal Banh Mi.

But I'm going to suggest that, as much as upscale Banh Mi is laughable, these so-called "real" Banh Mi are generally pretty terrible sandwiches and it is little more than their cultural cachet and low price that keeps them at or near the top of forum topics on more than one Chowhound board. Low quality food is counter to the spirit of Chowhound, I think, so have you ever—be honest—eaten a Banh Mi and felt like you've been lying to yourself about how great these things are? Have you ever felt like, despite getting two sandwiches for 3.50, you would rather get one really good one for $5? Why is nobody ever critical of Banh Mi (that I can see), when every other type of food is routinely the object of every imaginable scrutiny?

Let's start with the bread: the lowest grade white roll imaginable is the order of business at 90% of Banh Mi shops. It's tasteless, dry, and often outright stale. Give me an example of another style of sandwich you would willingly purchase that uses such a low quality bread. I'm sure these sad little loaves have a stake in the low prices at which we're able to enjoy our lunch, but like I say, wouldn't you rather have something nice?

Next, how about that revolting pink pâté? It doesn't seem to have any flavour and, although appearance is highly subjective, I can't think of anything appetizing about it. There is a Banh Mi shop (the only truly legendary one) called Saigon Givral in Edmonton that uses a different pâté: it's darker, peppery, a little salty, and quite rich. Other than the pâté, the meats are pretty much the only thing that most Banh Mi places get right. I like some of the more imaginative ones: meatball with faint taste of curry, grilled shredded meat of some kind, and even the soybean substitutions can be pretty nice. A regular "combo" is fine for me, though, and I wouldn't begrudge a Banh Mi shop for not offering much else.

But what makes a Banh Mi a Banh Mi to me isn't just the meat, otherwise I'd go sit down for grilled pork on vermicelli. It's the salad toppings. Probably my biggest overall gripe about these sandwiches is how unwilling many Banh Mi shops are to allow me to customize my order in any way. "I like a lot of cilantro," I say (sometimes I say "coriander" or "green stuff" just to ensure it isn't a terminology problem). No reply. The same three or four tired leaves of cilantro arranged on the sandwich. I happen to like the stalks. "Do you have any cucumber?" I ask. "No." I think it's a shame that cucumber is a rarity as a Banh Mi topping, despite being listed as one of its "traditional" ingredients. I suspect corner-cutting on the part of some shop owners here.

What's also frustrating is that, at Saigon Givral in Edmonton, I became accustomed to getting Sriracha on my sandwich. (I didn't suggest it, she offered it.) You wouldn't believe it until you've tried it how well a chili garlic sauce marries all the ingredients together and adds a more evenly distributed heat than those irrelevant little chili peppers you find dotted around your sandwich at most places. In the case of Saigon Givral's exceptional and slightly untraditional sandwiches, it's an enhancement. In the case of other Banh Mi, it would help mask the flavour of stale bread. Why have no shops thought of offering what is, after all, a Vietnamese condiment? Or, why do no customers seem to want it? The closest I came until today—in either Toronto or Montreal—was at the much-vaunted Rose Cafe. After asking for hot sauce, they initially said "no." But moments later a couple of squeeze packets of something resembling Taco Bell hot sauce were discovered and included with my order. Not the best solution.

Which brings me to today. There is a little Banh Mi place on Dupont, just west of Dundas mentioned on a couple of other topics. Nobody seems to know the name of it, and I don't either, but I thought I'd try it out. It's sparsely decorated, with a few tables for sit-in (she also does some hot food like noodles, grilled meats, that sort of thing). I ordered a couple of grilled pork Banh Mi and, spying a bottle of Sriracha that was intended for sit-in diners to add to their Pho, I asked the owner if she would put some in my sandwiches. She agreed, but I couldn't shake the impression that it was the first time anyone had asked for it. The guy next to me in line, perhaps inspired by my claim of "even distribution of spiciness," asked for it too.

The sandwiches were really pretty good, I must say. Very nice pork and a lot of cilantro, stalks and all, without having to beg. No cucumber was to be seen, and the bread was average, but like I say the pork was very nice. I was very encouraged by what I ate and by the idea that someone else out there in the world might now take Sriracha on a Banh Mi.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I think we should be more picky about our Banh Mi and encourage each other to push for better quality and more customization instead of a) misguidedly singing the praises of low-quality food, or b) totally ruining it by taking it "upscale." That's it.

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  1. l
    LTL RE: Suggest_Banh Jun 8, 2009 01:19 PM

    That's the first I've ever heard of Sriracha in banh mi. I much prefer cut up pieces of actual chili peppers.

    1. pinstripeprincess RE: Suggest_Banh Jun 8, 2009 01:26 PM

      i'm not actually a fan of sriracha. i don't dislike the stuff but i don't find it often enhances my experience the way a really good chili oil does with nice roasted flavour. it's a difference animal i know but i don't get it.

      i've had more than a few bahn mi's around town and i always go back to nguyen huong. i don't need no fancy grilled meats, i LIKE the cold cuts. i'll admit the ones at roses have a bit more of a home made feel to them (mostly in the rougher texture) but i found the flavouring bland. what i like about a good bahn mi is the crunchy/chewy bun, the nice clear flavours of the cold cut meat, refreshing bits of cucumber and sourness from lightly pickled veg (roses was tooooo pickled and limp!), the creaminess of a well balanced mayo and light pate... it's just one of the most perfect sandwiches in balance of salt, sour, barely sweet and spice. i always have them put on extra cilantro. always. i crave them all the time and if the cost me $3 i'd still gladly pay the price... btw, their bread comes in fresh in the morning, no stale crumbs here. i think nguyen huong is great and i'll point it out when they have off days and lament the eventual "downhill" slide... but they spring back.

      no one's attempting anything upscale here so guess what... something that we don't have to complain about yet! hurrah!

      16 Replies
      1. re: pinstripeprincess
        Davedigger RE: pinstripeprincess Jun 8, 2009 01:51 PM

        I, for one, find Bahn Mi revolting.

        1. re: Davedigger
          pinstripeprincess RE: Davedigger Jun 8, 2009 01:57 PM

          to each their own. it's a texture delight to me.

          1. re: Davedigger
            Stephanie Wong RE: Davedigger Jul 11, 2009 12:27 AM

            What in particular do you find revolting?

            1. re: Stephanie Wong
              Davedigger RE: Stephanie Wong Jul 13, 2009 07:41 AM

              I dunno. Texture and flavour of the meat I guess. Reminds me of bologna, which I also can't stand.

              1. re: Davedigger
                chuynh RE: Davedigger Jul 13, 2009 09:41 AM

                Actually there are many varieties of meats in banh mi that you can order (interestingly, like meat varieties you can choose for pho lol.) and not all of them taste like bologna. You may have run into a bad batch which means the quality of that food place is in question, or maybe find the cold cut combination that you like.

                A couple of things I always watch out for: the butter and the pate. These are supposed to be good French style butter, and of course good French pate, but enterprising shops are known to create their own specialties which don't always work for me. There are acceptable substitution/Vietnamese-derived butter spreads and pate, and if you find them then the rest is easy.

                1. re: chuynh
                  Davedigger RE: chuynh Jul 13, 2009 11:25 AM

                  Interesting. I may have to give it another go. Not soon, but sometime in the far future. ;-)

          2. re: pinstripeprincess
            y
            Yongeman RE: pinstripeprincess Jun 9, 2009 06:24 AM

            Hi psp. I agree in principle with most of your comments, although I have had equally tasty bahn mi at both Rose's and Nguyen Hong. The buns are almost always fresh (not sure where the original poster got the idea of poor quality buns).
            I do like sriracha in some situations, but it tends to dominate whaterver it's on. I've never had it on bahn mi and don't want to.
            I'm in Nashville at the moment, so can't run out for a spontaneous one at the moment. Oh well, it'll have to be pulled pork today. Not so bad.

            1. re: pinstripeprincess
              l
              LTL RE: pinstripeprincess Jun 9, 2009 09:16 AM

              "btw, their bread comes in fresh in the morning, no stale crumbs here" FYI that's not always true. I have been in there a few times and because they've been so slammed those days, they reheated frozen pre-baked baguettes. I know this because the lady working there advised me not to buy them on those days - perhaps because I'm a regular purchaser of other deli items and am Vietnamese as well.

              1. re: LTL
                pinstripeprincess RE: LTL Jun 9, 2009 10:43 AM

                i thankfully haven't experienced that. how often have you known then to do that? they do get pretty busy....

                1. re: pinstripeprincess
                  l
                  LTL RE: pinstripeprincess Jun 9, 2009 01:35 PM

                  It has happened three times that I was there within the last 2-3 months. When in Chinatown, I go to Ba Le for my banh mi and Nguyen Huong only for my deli products.

              2. re: pinstripeprincess
                Wahooty RE: pinstripeprincess Jun 9, 2009 10:16 AM

                I love the sandwich, it its simplest cold cut form, and also really enjoy Nguyen Huong. But lately, I've been regularly disappointed by a lack of spiciness in my "spicy" sandwich. Has anyone else had this problem? The distribution has always been spotty, but I never used to have any complaints about the amount of spice. The fruity/spicy hit from the peppers is part of why I find them so addictive.

                For even heat distribution without resorting to sriracha, you might try Ba Le 2 - north side of Dundas, just west of Spadina. They use a chopped chile paste, so it gets more spread out. They also use cucumber, but not as much pate as I would like them to. My last sandwich there was also not spicy enough, but I think the girl making it may have been new - the sandwich in general wasn't as good as it usually is. I'm hoping this was a one-off, because they've been my go-to place since I can't get a good chile hit from Nguyen Huong any more.

                1. re: Wahooty
                  pinstripeprincess RE: Wahooty Jun 9, 2009 10:44 AM

                  recently i've noticed a lack of the peppers when ordering spicy... i'll ask for extra spicy and extra cilantro most days.

                  1. re: pinstripeprincess
                    p
                    Pigurd RE: pinstripeprincess Jun 9, 2009 12:50 PM

                    i used to ask for the peppers separately, so u can distribute it yourself if you wanted a more even spicyness.

                    1. re: pinstripeprincess
                      l
                      LTL RE: pinstripeprincess Jun 9, 2009 01:36 PM

                      Yes, I always ask for extra spicy.

                    2. re: Wahooty
                      e
                      elrik RE: Wahooty Jun 9, 2009 01:10 PM

                      I've also noticed that the amount of all vegetation in the sandwiches at Nguyen Huong have dropped off lately. one or two spare sprigs of corriander, miserly chilis and low pickled veg count too. Will ask for more next time I am in and see if they are amicable.

                      1. re: elrik
                        e
                        elrik RE: elrik Jun 11, 2009 11:52 AM

                        Was there for some sandwiches and shopping last night (we go to the Steele's and Middlefield location and shop at the T&T). Asked for more chilis and cilantro and the lady was quite accommodating. Lately it's been one to two bites of the sandwich had chilis, but this one had them in every bite ;)

                        On an unrelated note. Love the soft tofu soup at the korean fast food place in the T&T there, so tasty. They used to be an owl of minnerva, but changed names a while ago while not having a staff turnover.

                  2. sweetie RE: Suggest_Banh Jun 8, 2009 02:31 PM

                    Actually I believe that Sriracha (rooster sauce) is considered an American condiment. I think I read some article about it in the NYT recently. I sometimes order my banh mi "hot" I like the little peppers. I do not recall ever having distribution issues...funny the things you take for granted.

                    1 Reply
                    1. re: sweetie
                      tbonetak RE: sweetie Jun 9, 2009 12:54 PM

                      Here's a link to the NYT article.

                      http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/20/din...

                    2. chuynh RE: Suggest_Banh Jun 8, 2009 06:50 PM

                      Like many other Americanized ethnic foods, low price becomes the governing factor. At times there are attempts by some to go upscale so that they can charge more - they'd love to sell the banh mi at $5-7 that, say, a Subway or Quiznos can command. In either case authenticity and quality are both questionable. For banh mi to be authentic, it needs to be fresh French bread, with various "better than average" ingredients used. Around where I live, I and other Viet know what's god and what's not, but if I find myself in an unfamiliar place and chance on a banh mi shop, then the clientele (many Viet customers) can be a good indication.

                      1. s
                        szw RE: Suggest_Banh Jun 8, 2009 08:39 PM

                        Sorry I couldn't read your entire post, but my thoughts on Banh Mi are that in my year in Toronto I've yet to find a single decent edible Banh Mi compared to the good ones they serve in Calgary.

                        1 Reply
                        1. re: szw
                          s
                          Suggest_Banh RE: szw Jun 9, 2009 11:48 AM

                          I'm feeling the same way.

                        2. e
                          Everythingtarian RE: Suggest_Banh Jun 9, 2009 07:18 AM

                          I love the stuff myself. There are a few joints in my hood (spadina/dundas) with ingredients varying from bbq pork to bbq chicken to tripe to lemongrass tofu. Maybe its the years of being a struggling artist/musician, but something about the $3 lunch I can eat while running errands still excites me.

                          3 Replies
                          1. re: Everythingtarian
                            l
                            LovesToEat RE: Everythingtarian Jun 9, 2009 10:49 AM

                            I love banh mi so much so that I bought a dozen of them on my wedding day as lunch for myself and our wedding party! They were enjoyed by all!

                            1. re: LovesToEat
                              v
                              victor page RE: LovesToEat Jun 9, 2009 12:33 PM

                              I love Banh Mi - the best I've ever had was in the back of a convenience store at the corner of Mott and Broome in NYC Chinatown.

                              The bread was a fresh french baguette and it was nicely toasted. The warmth and crunchiness of the bread was a perfect contrast to the cool bbq pork, cilantro and cucumber.

                              There wasn't a lot of mayo in the pork - it seemed to be just shredded pork with a red sauce. I hate mayo - I can't think of one thing it's good for.

                            2. re: Everythingtarian
                              t
                              TwinklyTerrapin RE: Everythingtarian Jun 11, 2009 11:57 AM

                              Oooh -- where did you find the lemongrass tofu banh mi?

                              When Co Yen was around, they had a banh mi filled with was lemongrass-chili wheat gluten and was ~amazing~. I've been looking for one like it ever since...

                            3. Royaljelly RE: Suggest_Banh Jun 9, 2009 05:15 PM

                              I believe the intent of the OP was hoping to raise the standard of Banh Mi in TO, Sriracha sauce or not. There is a conceptual conflict since part of the appeal of Banh Mi is its price - since majority of the clientele is still mostly immigrant Asian, it would be hard to turn it up to even the level of Big Mac price ranges. I find it even harder to find higher end Vietnamese restos let alone street style Banh Mi.

                              Having said that the Banh Mi shops have vastly improved compared to 10yrs ago - in terms of hygiene standards. During my student days it was the cheapest dollar lunch possible followed by days of food poisoning. Having improved my living standard significantly now, I do have issues about the pink Pate substance (trans fat ladden I am sure), the stale bread, the wimpy cilantro, and the unknown substance stuffed into the sausages and cold cuts. I am still hoping to find a decent Banh Mi but not holding my breath for it.

                              10 Replies
                              1. re: Royaljelly
                                s
                                Suggest_Banh RE: Royaljelly Jun 11, 2009 10:23 AM

                                I would dispute your assertion that "the majority of the clientele is still mostly immigrant Asian." If anything this kind of spurious mythologizing is what feeds into the lack of critical debate regarding these sandwiches. What I'm hearing is that "it's okay to eat shitty food because that's what authentic, poor immigrants eat." I'm not sure I've ever, in my life seen an actual Vietnamese person buy a Banh Mi. Well... Maybe one or two guys but they are software developers and so don't count as hardscrabble refugees enjoying this noble peasant food. Anyway, if I was a poor immigrant I'd stay home and my wife would cook me some rice and meat. I wouldn't f**k around with cheap white bread. It's kind of insulting to immigrants to suggest that they save up their money to go buy a terrible sandwich.

                                No, it's mostly the skinny jeans and gigantic sunglasses crew that love feeling like they've caught on to something. You know, put some M.I.A. on the iPod and go get a Banh Mi. Feeling global, you get my drift?

                                1. re: Suggest_Banh
                                  l
                                  LTL RE: Suggest_Banh Jun 11, 2009 10:37 AM

                                  What kind of banh mi places do you frequent?? It's rare that I DON'T see a Vietnamese person buying banh mi. 9 times out of 10 they're Vietnamese. You're criticizing Royaljelly for supposedly stereotyping, and yet you do exactly that.

                                  1. re: Suggest_Banh
                                    pinstripeprincess RE: Suggest_Banh Jun 11, 2009 10:39 AM

                                    where do you buy your bahn mi from? considering your description of the consumers i am not surprised you feel that bahn mi quality is so poor in the city. i haven't hardly ever seen anyone of that description where i have purchased any of mine. they musn't get enough turn over!

                                    1. re: pinstripeprincess
                                      1sweetpea RE: pinstripeprincess Jun 11, 2009 11:16 AM

                                      In Windsor we're relegated to buying premade sandwiches that were shipped from Toronto Spadina Rd. shops. They're frequently a few days old and as you can imagine, taste like crap. I once bought a couple of sandwiches, to sample the different fillings, and wound up throwing both in the garbage because the bread was inedibly stale and the fillings had a questionable slimy look to them. I've taken to making my own banh mi at home. They are bastardizations, for sure, but improvements, if I may say so myself. The spirit of the sandwich remains, though, so I still call mine banh mi. Essential to me are the fresh, crispy vegetable additions. It's not a banh mi without the cilantro, cucumber, carrot and daikon (if daikon is unavailable, I use crunchy sprouts or regular radishes). I do use sriracha, because I'm a heat junkie, but I also like to smash a bird chile and spread it on the bread. I enjoyed the banh mi I ate throughout Vietnam, and although all were similar in construction, the fillings really varied from vendor to vendor. It is for this reason that I think banh mi should simply be regarded as a bread roll and not some preconceived notion of what the quintessential sandwich and its ingredients should be. I'd like banh mi shops to each have sandwich varieties that are unique. Customers can customize to some extent, but the charm should lie in a shop's trademark fillings and flavours. If this lends itself to deviation from what's become the so-called standard banh mi, then so be it. Vive la difference! That said, as a Type A customer, if I ask for extra cilantro or chiles, they'd better damn well oblige. Charge extra, if need be, but don't deny me my ideal sandwich.

                                    2. re: Suggest_Banh
                                      Wahooty RE: Suggest_Banh Jun 11, 2009 11:09 AM

                                      I must've hallucinated the Vietnamese lady on the streetcar the other day with a huge bag full of Nguyen Huong subs. And the other Vietnamese ladies I'm usually shouting over to place my order. Or maybe they just look Vietnamese to me, since I can't see very well through my gigantic sunglasses.

                                      1. re: Wahooty
                                        pinkprimp RE: Wahooty Jun 11, 2009 11:38 AM

                                        And obviously you couldn't hear them order in Vietnamese because you were too busy blasting M.I.A. through your iPod! '-)

                                        1. re: pinkprimp
                                          Wahooty RE: pinkprimp Jun 11, 2009 12:04 PM

                                          Nah, I'm not that cliche. It was probably K'naan.

                                          1. re: Wahooty
                                            v
                                            victor page RE: Wahooty Jun 11, 2009 12:24 PM

                                            I go to that Banh Mi place on Dundas west of Spadina ..forget what it's called but it says "French Subs" outside. It appears that the majority of their customers are Asian most likely Viet Namese.

                                            The skinny jeans crowd is over on Ossington at Pizza Libretto - which incidentally offers great food no matter the width of your pants.

                                            1. re: victor page
                                              l
                                              LTL RE: victor page Jun 12, 2009 01:13 PM

                                              I think you're referencing Banh Mi Ba Le 2. My favourite in Chinatown!

                                      2. re: Suggest_Banh
                                        t
                                        tygrr_lily RE: Suggest_Banh Jun 12, 2009 07:44 AM

                                        we are vietnamese and we buy banh mi all the time :). we get them from nguyen huong as well

                                    3. z
                                      Zengarden RE: Suggest_Banh Jul 11, 2009 06:09 AM

                                      You're not at war with Banh Mi but those who assemble sacreligious banh mi, right? Your title was a bit misleading. I thought that there was someone who hated these sandwiches and thought, oh why?

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