And your menu suggestions would be..?

[MrManners]

Gourmet Girl has set me off. Chicken Parmagiana - or indeed aubergine/eggplant - ought to be an easy ask. Chicken fillet pane, deep fry, nap with tomato sauce, cheese on top, salamander, garnish and serve. No salamander? (and who has in the £5.00 lunch market) No problem: zap it for 15 seconds. One school of thought has it that our cafe cooks are underskilled, incapable of anything more imaginative than a fry-up. Another suggests the opposite: the new wave of migration has transformed cafes in London from greasy spoons with greying net curtains into places you might actually want to eat in. But the menu tends to stay the same. So, suggestions please from you well-travelled chowhounds, for tastier menus, and recommendations for places that are trying a bit harder.

[limster]

The way I like my chicken (or aubergine) parm is to have it deep fried to order and have the bread warmed up on a grill at the same time. The hot chicken, fresh from the fryer, and the warm bread melts the cheese. Admittedly I've yet to see a place like that here, although they were not rare in Boston.

[batfink23]

what does bread have to do with chicken parm?

[PhilD]

I prefer mine with a couple of schooners, preferably Little Creatures.

[limster]

It's most commonly made in a chicken parm sandwich.

[batfink23]

aaaahhhh... ok I get you.

but actually its not. thanks for clarifying though.

[DollyDagger]

It's more commonly served on or with pasta, isn't it?

[batfink23]

Cotolello milanese - which is a close variation is traditionally served with pasta. but meat and pasta is not a common match in general.

the chicken parma is usually served straight up.

[limster]

Depends on where you get it; in certain places in the US where southern italian (Neapolitans, Sicilians etc) predominate it's pretty standard.

[zuriga1]

I'm sure you're memories of Boston parm are like mine from Phila. and NY. I had some last week, but my husband wondered why it's not called chicken mozzarella because that's what's usually melted on top. I started thinking about that. :-)

[PhilD]

Check Wikipedia for the reason it is named.

[zuriga1]

Thanks, Phil. That made for interesting reading, and now I'm more well informed. I wasn't 100% happy with the main I got in Manhattan, but it was very good. A bit off topic, but monkfish was selling in Phila. for $10 a pound. Aaargh - and same price as cod!

[Harters]

"So, suggestions please from you well-travelled chowhounds, for tastier menus, and recommendations for places that are trying a bit harder."

Depends on how you'd like to define "cafe" for us. And are you only interested in London suggestions?

[MrManners]

Harters, thank you. And apologies to all for the original post being so verbose. To answer your questions: by cafe I really mean beans, bacon & chips joints, as opposed to Patisserie Valerie. And not just London; why shouldn't we be able to order a short stack in Sunderland?

[pj26]

What's a short stack?

[zuriga1]

Pancakes... American style?

[pj26]

Ok, so doesn't that answer the question why they wouldn't be available in Sunderland?!

[zuriga1]

I have no idea where or if American pancakes are made in the UK. I see Bisquick on some supermarket shelves - so anyone could try to make those, although they are probably not the best example of pancakes, Yank-style.

I don't think they're easily found. I think that's what was meant by a short stack.

[Harters]

Pancakes are not a usual British breakfast dish but, when they do appear on a menu they are almost certain to be American style, rather than European. You'll find "short stacks" on the menus of the chains - Little Chef, OK Diner and so on.

Whether you'll find them on the menu of the greasy spoon type place that the MrM wants us to talk about, I suspect that it will be entirely a matter of local supply and demand. If there's a demand in Sunderland, someone will cook them. By way of comparison, I've yet to see a breakfast place in America offering Bury black pudding and a Staffordshire oatcake.

However, trying now to answer the question MrM poses (about caffs which "try harder"), my answer is that I hope not. The "greasy spoon" type of place is a treasured part of my cultural history (although less so, now the health fascists have stopped folk smoking in them). It's a place where I can get a substantial and cheap breakfast (if not of necessarily good food quality). It's place where I can get a substantial and cheap lunch (I like pie, chips and beans). It's defined cuisine, if you like, and one which caters to a loyal customer base. When I want to spend my lunch fiver on something different, there are many other choices.

[nanette]

Giraffe does a shortstack. I don't like them, but when the little nanette nieces wake me up at 6am and want breakfast before I've had coffee, and I'm too tired to make pancakes we go there.

[Harters]

Sainsbury stock a pack of 4 ready made American style. Not "own brand" and kept along the bakery aisle. Keeping a pack or two in the freezer might be the answer for the nieces.

Quick blast in the microwave and a drench of maple syrup and I'm transported back to holidays in Virginia

[pj26]

Going back to the original post I think there are a few cafes around, once greasy spoons who are introducing their own style - around East London there can be found Polish influences here and there as well as the original 'greasy spoon' fry up on the menu (although I still very much doubt you will find a short stack in Sunderland - don't know if many American migrants will be opening up greasy spoons, let alone in Sunderland!). There's also a pretty good cafe in Waterloo run by Portuguese, who along with the usual bacon sarnies also offer Portuguese pastries, sandwiches and grills. I don't think it's a matter for 'trying a bit harder' but more simply cooking what they know.

[PhilD]

Definition is so important, I am assuming you don't mean indian/pakistani curry cafe's but more traditional breakfast/coffee/lunch spots.

My vote would go to the new wave of Aussie/Kiwi places. First they have given London good coffee as a great alternative to the pale milky substitute from Seattle and their many imitators, examples include "Flat White" and "Monmouth" (the baristas are usually from the antipodes).

Second places like "Lantarna" deliver great breakfasts with Bill's (Grainger) classics like sweet-corn fritters and bacon, or ricotta hot-cakes with honeycomb butter and banana, and fresh muesli. OK not all the dishes are Antipodean in origin, but their presentation and style mean they represent a classic Aussie/Kiwi breakfast.

[pj26]

Definitely agree with the vote for the Aussie/Kiwi places.

Having moved to London from NZ many years ago, I was quite dismayed how difficult it was to find a decent breakfast that wasnt served up on a plastic tablecloth on a plate of grease (ok maybe that's taking it a bit far but you get the picture). I think the idea of 'going out for breakfast' is only recently becoming part of the London eating lifestyle, which is perhaps much more prevalent in NZ/Australia.

[zuriga1]

Phil, not that I am a great fan of most American coffees and/or chains, but I don't know what you mean by 'pale milky substitutes.' If someone drinks even American coffees black, how would they look milky?

That said, my husband had one decent cup of coffee when we were in the States. It's a bit pathetic.

[pj26]

I think Phil means the capuccinos or white coffees served in the chains are just frothy milk with the tiniest bit of (usually burnt) coffee. Before places like Flat White and Monmouth opened it was near on impossible to find decent coffee in London.

[batfink23]

pure parochialism in the extreme though.

a flat white is another name for latte no more, no less. its not a better coffee in any way shape or form.

Hell anyone who endured the rubbish that is the Hudsons and Norma Jean coffee chains in Australia, would equally be circumspect about what the australians have brought to london in coffee terms.

* oh and I lived in Australia for 30 years. ;o)

[pj26]

I'd have to disagree about flat white being another name for a latte. Semantics aside, I think it's more the care that goes in to the coffee - proper baristas as opposed to fast food chain type cafes.

Of course there are bad coffee places in both NZ and Australia but for a city of over 9 million and all London can offer is some American chains or other excuses for coffee? Not good enough!

[zuriga1]

Why can't someone import some Portuguese coffee and people to brew it properly? The coffee there is excellent. They can even move here without getting a visa!

[batfink23]

there are plenty of good options out there, even if the chains don't appeal.

Bar italia in Frith Street is a great option for example.

[zuriga1]

Yes, that's a good one. When I used to come to London as a tourist... maybe 8-10 years ago, there was a wonderful Italian coffee bar on Gloucester Rd. near my rented flat. It was a great place to start the day.

[pj26]

I agree - the coffee from Portugal is great - there's a place in Waterloo run by Portuguese who do a pretty good coffee and they also have the most addictive pasteis de nata to go with.

[batfink23]

phooey.

there is nothing to disagree with, a flat white is for an intents and purposes a latte - certainly no distinctions worth worrying about. an espresso based coffee topped up hot milk and depending on affectations may or may not have a little froth on top.

moreover vague claims about care and barista training is nebulous at best. do you have any reason or evidence to believe that monmouth trains its barista's better than Nero or Starbucks?

the fact of the matter is that its a minimum wage, high labour turnover industry - the notion of significantly superior training and care is fanciful and uneconomic.

further, perjorative and baseless characterisation of "american chains" is not especially helpful. not least because UK private equity backed Costa isn't any different, and neither for that matter is Nero. personal preferences notwithstanding.

when working in Rome and Milan I certainly did not notice an appreciable step up in coffee standards on the street, compared to the london options. it's a romantic fallacy.

[pj26]

Before we start getting in to the economics of the coffee industry (and apologies for my perhaps rather broad assumptions regarding ownership of chains) , I was simply following on from the thread discussion on what culture have influenced the traditional greasy spoon - and agree that Antipodean's have had an influence in upping the stakes when it comes to coffee. There are some other places that do serve great coffee - the likes of Bar Italia etc however still hold to my belief they are found few and far between

[batfink23]

no worries, but I still maintain the antipodeans - of which I am one - have had zero appreciable effect over and above anyone else in general terms.

other than their willingness to work for minimum wage!! lol

[pj26]

we've got to be good at something - and coffee is one of them!

[PhilD]

My suggestion was in response to the OP asking for thoughts on how the traditional cafe may be evolving into a new wave of cafe. I see the Aus/Kiwi influence in a few places and obviously I see this in the pioneers like Lantarna/Flat White (and I meant "Flat White" the cafe in Berwick Street, Soho not the drink) plus a few others. It won't become a national trend but I thought the OP was looking for some ideas of innovation in this sector.

OK my comment about Seattle as a little narrow, but my understanding is that whilst Costa and Nero's may be UK companies but they were set up to compete with Starbucks, and to follow the similar (successful) business model. I forget which it was, but one of them was founded US entrepreneurs who came to the UK and set up before Starbucks in order to get first mover advantage. To me they are all "american" style coffee chains (as are Hudsons and Gloria Jeans in Aus).

My observations about Aus/NZ coffee culture echoes pj26 comment. The ratio of good coffee to bad in London is very, very poor compared to all Australian cities. OK there are a few chains in Australia (you forgot Dome in WA), but even the mighty Starbucks has now admitted defeat and downsized in Australia. Most coffee bars there are independent and have skilled baristas, I have no idea how UK baristas are trained, but it doesn't result in demonstrable skills; lots of burned coffee, and super heated milk. I don't believe it is a coincidence that "Monmouth" seems to employ so many Antipodean baristas, and often cafes with good coffee have Kiwis or Aussie behind the machine. I agree there are other good places for coffee in London, like Bar Italia (although it is past the glories of the '70's and early '80's) but I think I would run out of names before I ran out of fingers and toes.

[batfink23]

my problem with this, is that there is nothing more than vague illusions to the mystical powers of australian minimum wage earners, and a personal preference for Monmouth over other chains. not one I share, but that's just a preference.

significant training is impossible in low wage environs, so I don't buy that argument. Pubs and restaurants are full of cheap aussie labour too, as are shops and any other business that needs someone to work for £5 an hour. again, there is nothing unique about this as it relates to the coffee sector.

can't see anything particularly significant about Flat White in Berwick street in the context either. its just a coffee shop not a wider trend setter. with a slightly cringeworthy parochial ouvre - their selling point is creating and furthering the myth of a great coffee tradition down under. good for them, if it works great.

there is just no evidence at all that this entirely imagined (or created in marketing land) great australian coffee culture has had any impact over here, nor is it really true that there is anything substantially missing in this regard from london. there are loads of proper italian coffee shops littered throughout, as well as the chains.

all of that said, coffee to me personally is espresso. the espresso from the chains is perfectly good, but not cool to like. sometimes you come across a small shop or bar that does it better, which is neither unusual or interesting imo.

but that said, we're going round in circles and I'm off to starbucks lol. :o)

[PhilD]

You are right about the training. I suspect that is why the Antipodean barista tends to be better; they are trained/experienced before they come over. I can't cite any evidence for an Australian coffee culture, I am afraid my opinion is simply based on experience; a good coffee in the UK is a rare beast; in Australia is is a pretty safe bet. You enjoy Starbucks; good for you, many people don't.

I also believe you are missing the point of the OP. I wasn't suggesting that there was going to be an Aussie caff on every street corner, I was simply suggesting that there is a distinct niche forming of Aussie/Kiwi places in London and elsewhere that offer an alternative to the greasy spoon.