618425 Fri May 08 16:07:50 -0700 2009 43 31 Home Cooking 0 4667310 Has anybody had success with Bittman's bread recipe. The one that uses 1/4 t yeast and is left to rise for hours? The first time I made it, great success. But for 3 times I have tried and thrown away a big "blob" of dough that is so soft, it is impossible to handle. I watched Alton Brown make a similar recipe on food network and his dough was easy to handle. Any suggestions for what I am doing wrong? Fri May 08 16:07:50 -0700 2009 116128 LGD 1 4667349 I've made it, perhaps half a dozen times. Always turns out great. His technique is a simply a basic hydrolyzation process - hence "no knead" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13Ah9ES2yTU The ingredients are so terribly simple, your problem has to be the ratio of water to flour (or the type of flour relative to the liquid or hydrolyzation time span) because there's nothing in it but salt, yeast, water and flour and a very long waiting time. Depending on humidity and how careully I measure, I sometimes find it's a bit sticky but that's easy enough to fix with a little more flour. Fri May 08 16:24:28 -0700 2009 4667310 203621 todao 1 4667361 From what I understand, Bittman's recipe/technique is nearly identical to the Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day approach, which is what I've been using for about a year. I follow their advice to handle the dough with wet hands; sprinkle flour over the surface of the dough before beginning to work with it; and just keep doing it. Oh, the dough is also much easier to handle if it is cold...room temperature can be really sticky. Keep trying! Fri May 08 16:29:48 -0700 2009 4667310 48292 powella 2 5305004 OK. I bought 5 Minutes and I wound up with a blob (almost a puddle). The problem with the book is that they don't give weights with theiir measurements. Please, please. please, if you have had success with this book, please give me the weight of one cup of flour. Thu Jan 07 18:19:47 -0800 2010 4667361 35154 junescook 1 4667425 I make this occasionally and it always works fine. I tried the Cooks Illustrated version which is easier to handle but don't get anywhere near the best results with a drier dough. I learned from somewhere (maybe here) to use a silpat in a bowl for the 2nd rise then use a greased spatula to scrape the dough off the silpat. Wet or floured hands don't work, I just don't touch the dough. There is a really, really long thread on here that covers all the things people have tried to make it work. I think my ratio is pretty much straight Bittman. 3 cups of flour to 1/4 tsp of yeast and 1 1/4 tsp of salt with 1 5/8 c water. Fri May 08 17:02:14 -0700 2009 4667310 15832 sharonanne 1 4667467 for the record, it's not Mark Bittman's recipe. it's from Jim Lahey of Sullivan Bakery,...Bittman just published it in his column. Fri May 08 17:20:54 -0700 2009 4667310 103920 goodhealthgourmet 2 5300936 Thanks for that! When the NYT article came out it made me certifiably *nutz* that it suddenly became "Bittman Bread" because of the alliteration. Bittman adds a great deal to the dissemination of America's culinary advances but that's NO reason to rob Jim Lahey of *his* discovery. Meanwhile to OP, try using weights and percentages instead of volume measurements. And never be afraid to make adjustments to make it "right" to your personal perception. Especially if you did it once and understand that this is a much wetter and slacker dough than conventional bread doughs. For my money, Lahey's great contribution is knowing that kneading is not essential NOT that kneading and having your hands more involved is s mistake AND the business of baking the dough in the hot enclosed pot to produce that glorious crust. As with everything, it's a matter of learning from one another's experiences and bringing it all and modifying it all to a method that's right for each of us. Wed Jan 06 11:53:27 -0800 2010 4667467 17969 rainey 3 5303632 yeah, it stresses me out when people don't get due credit for their creations/discoveries. Thu Jan 07 10:20:02 -0800 2010 5300936 103920 goodhealthgourmet 1 4667469 i have the same problem of the sticky blob -- certainly not able to be kneaded like in bittman's video. but it works anyways. i literally stir it, flop it over with wet hands, and then let it rise, etc, all in the same bowl. no towel, countertop, or whatever it calls for. has been perfect every time, crispy outside, great crumb. (i take off the top knob of my le creuset dutch oven just in case, though i have heard from others it doesn't melt as the le creuset site advises against such high temps) Fri May 08 17:21:07 -0700 2009 4667310 272313 meganmarie 2 4667690 I loved the letter that I read on the net after the early reports of folks taking knobs from the Le Creuset pots at bed Bath and Sur Le Table to replace their crumpled knobs. "That is exactly the sort of behavior one would expect from people who do not knead their bread." Fri May 08 19:22:45 -0700 2009 4667469 105235 wolfe 3 5301822 I bought a stainless steel Le Creuset replacement knob, but then I got worried about the enamel, as well...for a lot less money than replacing my Le Creuset french oven, I got an old Wagner #8 cast iron dutch oven on Ebay, and use that for this bread. Wed Jan 06 16:18:46 -0800 2010 4667690 70211 Beckyleach 4 5302228 The all time best thing for Lahey's method is using a tagine. I use the Emile Henry Flame ceramic tagine. What the tagine does is provide a wide shallow bottom which is easy to load wet, slack dough onto. You can even load the dough in upside right and slash easily. And then it has a high top that has ample room for the oven spring. Here's a set of photos I did for the person who gave me my tagine: http://www.flickr.com/photos/75667634@N00/sets/72157614219259321/ Wed Jan 06 19:35:12 -0800 2010 5301822 17969 rainey 5 5303617 I priced the Emile Henry tagine and have to say it is out of my price range. The one I saw for about sixty dollars at Ikea tempted me. But I still bake this bread quite nicely in a 10 1/2" Italian terra cotta bulb pan plus its saucer. Unglazed. In DC they are hard to find except around the end of February. I usually get two each year and inevitably pass them on to someone learning to make the Lahey bread. But I also bake other kinds of boules in them. I am going to try a terra cotta window box this year for long loafs. One of the other chowhounds mentioned he uses them. Thu Jan 07 10:16:42 -0800 2010 5302228 53369 Father Kitchen 6 5304072 Brilliant! It sounds like the same concept with much more affordable components. Truth is, I doubt I'd buy a tagine to make bread either. Mine was a gift. But now that I have it I *love* the wide shallow basin. Last night I made meatloaf in the bottom and used the top to keep it warm while it rested. And then there are braises and actual tagines (the Middle Eastern braises)! Yum! But kudos for your inventive spirit! Thu Jan 07 12:20:08 -0800 2010 5303617 17969 rainey 6 5304213 This Sur la Table one is $25, safe to 400 degrees which might be enough. http://www.surlatable.com/product/id/177096.do?mr:referralID=30c6c423-fbcf-11de-8544-000423c27407 Thu Jan 07 13:00:48 -0800 2010 5303617 159317 greygarious 7 5304767 Nah! It has to be safe to at least 475. Ikea also has a clay baker, like the Romertopf for about twenty bucks. That is another good option. Thu Jan 07 16:27:17 -0800 2010 5304213 53369 Father Kitchen 6 5304987 Is all unglazed terra cotta by definition safe to 475-500 degrees? When you use the bulb pan and saucer for bread, do you wet either piece? (I'm thinking not but just to be clear...) There's a huge nursery not far away so I was thinking of looking at their terra cotta display. Do pieces intended for gardening need pre-washing or other preparation before you utilize them in baking? Thu Jan 07 18:15:54 -0800 2010 5303617 159317 greygarious 5 5305326 rainey -- how did you come up with the tagine idea? Did someone write about that? Or did you just try it? Ingenious. Thu Jan 07 21:15:22 -0800 2010 5302228 123744 karykat 6 5307713 I got the lovely tagine in that photo essay as a gift. As soon as I saw it I knew it was exactly what I'd been looking for! Previously, I was cooking my bread -- no knead and conventional -- according to Jim Lahey's enclosed hot pot method. But I was loading my dough onto a hot oven stone and putting the casserole upside down on top of it so that I didn't have to reach down into anything hot and I had time for properly slashing the skin. It was a method that found me. ;> Fri Jan 08 18:26:33 -0800 2010 5305326 17969 rainey 1 4667481 I have skipped the second rise and scrape right from the bowl into a hot 4 qt dutch oven trying to steer the dough into just one 1/2 the pot. The low oval loaf comes out fine. I use white or whole wheat, slight increase in yeast, water and and 1 1/2 Tbs vital wheat gluten for 100% whole wheat. Additions rosemary and kalamatas or walnuts. So far no complaints when I bring in the warm loaf to work. Early to bed and early to rise lets Jack bake first thing in the morning. Fri May 08 17:28:54 -0700 2009 4667310 105235 wolfe 1 4667653 As I was writing that I wondered what would happen if I just skipped the second rise. Thanks, meganmarie and wolfe. Fri May 08 19:03:11 -0700 2009 4667310 15832 sharonanne 1 4667670 I just watched the video on youtube and that is so much more solid that my dough. I am going to change flour. Mine is so sticky and so "runny" and I followed the 3 cups of flour and 12 ounces of water. It was a warm day but not too humid today and I just dumped the runny mess in the trash because last time I had tried to cook it and it was like a pancake-crispy brown but so thin there was no "inside" Fri May 08 19:12:42 -0700 2009 4667310 116128 LGD 2 4667716 Description of a large cracker ;-} I wonder if you proofed your yeast. Not that it's necessary for this recipe but it'd be a good idea to determine if it's still alive. Fri May 08 19:37:04 -0700 2009 4667670 203621 todao 2 5303695 LGD, atmospheric humidity makes a huge difference, as your words indicate. (The same flour may work out quite well when the air is dry and turn into a runny mess when the humidity is up.) But I think part of the problem here is that the original Lahey formula is already on the very soft side for high protein bread flour. And if you used AP flour (which gives better flavor), you may need to change the hydration ratio. I normally make this with Gold Medal unbleached AP flour, and I always weigh it. But I use less water. Let me explain. Your 3 cups of flour should weigh 15 ounces or a smidgen more. If the flour is dry, that gives you a hydration rate of 80% by baker's percentages, which is a very wet dough already. If the flour has absorbed much humidity, you could get something more like a batter. Rosa Levy Beranbaum found the recipe works better with 75% hydration--16 ounces of flour to those 12 ounces of water or 11 1/4 ounces of water to 15 ounces of flour. But even that figure can be generous if the flour has absorbed moisture. I've made this bread with 10 ounces of water to 15 ounces of flour. So I would suggest you either start out with less water or, if it turns into a runny glop, just add a couple of ounces of flour fairly early in the rise to firm it up a bit. The first time I made this bread by following the NY Times recipe, my dough was almost a batter. It was a gloppy mess to handle, but the bread tasted fine. Since then, I always adjust the formulation. And, by the way, you can fold the dough several times if you like. So if you are not sure how it is shaping up, try folding the dough about two hours after mixing. If it is an ooze then, just sprinkle on some flour and fold it a few times. If you wait until late in the rise, the results may not be as good since the enzymes will not have had enough time to work the new flour over. Thu Jan 07 10:36:30 -0800 2010 4667670 53369 Father Kitchen 3 5303899 In Lahey's new My Bread, he reduces the water to 1 1/3 c. I haven't tried it yet but will with my next loaf. The only other change is an increase in salt which I'd been doing anyway. Thu Jan 07 11:35:32 -0800 2010 5303695 39874 chowser 4 5304775 That really is a better measure for AP flour. But if you use whole wheat, you can go much higher. So people shouldn't be afraid to experiment. So much depends on the flour. Thu Jan 07 16:29:52 -0800 2010 5303899 53369 Father Kitchen 5 5304973 Since you're a flour expert, perhaps you can explain something that has been puzzling me. Whole wheat flour can absorb more water than AP. Yet when I make pate brisee in my Cuisinart, I need only about half the water than if I were using AP flour. It's been a couple of years so I can't tell you the exact amount. I discovered this the hard way - the first time I subbed whole wheat for white (this was over a decade ago so I can't say if it was a 1:1 ratio or a 100% swap) I put the full water amount in the dribbler tube and wound up with a pasty mess into which I had to add copious additional spoons of flour. This makes no sense. Thu Jan 07 18:09:58 -0800 2010 5304775 159317 greygarious 1 4667799 Have you tried Jacques Pepin's dead-simple version? http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/602295 If you have a 2-3 qt nonstick pot that can take a 425-450 oven, this is a breeze. You want a diameter not larger than 8". My pot is old so I spray with Pam first. You stir flour, tepid water, yeast, and salt right in the pot, let rise, stir, then rise again overnight in the refrigerator. It is then baked uncovered and dumped out of the pot. Your hands never touch dough. It is crusty, but the crumb is not as open as the Cooks Illustrated version of Bittman/Lahey. I use King Arthur's White Whole Wheat, or in combination with oatmeal or rye. I have always made it all in one day, leaving it at room temp for the second rise. The recipe is quite forgiving; I use from 1-1-1/2 tsp yeast; it doesn't seem to matter except in the time the rise takes. Fri May 08 20:16:26 -0700 2009 4667310 159317 greygarious 1 4667829 I've had no problems. I never really handle the dough, just use a scraper to get it out of the raising container, onto floured wax paper and into the towel-lined basket, then holding 3 ends of the towel, heaving it into the hot pot. In fact, I use 14 oz of water to 3 cups flour and the bread has wonderful crust and crumb. Keep your flour shaker nearby. Fri May 08 20:32:28 -0700 2009 4667310 10926 mnosyne 1 4667950 First time I made it, it also came out great, though could have had a little more flavor. next times, not so good. I think it makes a difference if you use organic wheat and at room temp. Also, water that has been allowed to dechlorinate (allow it to sit out, open, overnight or boil and then cool before using). also, water to flour and salt rations really matter, at least in my experience. Fri May 08 21:52:11 -0700 2009 4667310 291240 chowwow 1 4668107 There are at least two or three voluminous threads about this already. Do a quick search and you'll be reading for days. Sat May 09 03:06:34 -0700 2009 4667310 14139 Kagey 1 4671129 The first time I baked this bread, straight from the NY Times article and video clip, I got a dough that was almost a batter. Much depends on how you measure the flour and the humidity of the flour. I used plenty of flour on the counter surface when I folded it and still had to use a bench knive to handle the gloppy mess. Had this been my first loaf of bread, I would have called it impossible to handle. But having baked superhydrated Italian breads, I just went (literally) with the flow. And the bread was quite good. The next time I baked it, I decreased the water. Then I read Rosa Levy Beranbaums take on it. She tried it and she concluded that you get better results with less water. She uses 75% hydration or three parts of water by weight to four parts of flour by weight (e.g. 12 ounces of water and 16 of flour). That is my normal proportion (though I usually bake it as a sourdough bread). And I upped the salt to 1 1/2 teaspoons to suit my taste. Often, I bake this as a slightly larger loaf with 20 ounces of flour and 15 ounces of water and 2 teaspoons of salt. BUT, when the weather is humid, as ours was on Friday, I hold back a full two ounces of water for the large loaf. So it was 20 ounces of flour and 13 ounces of water. I got good results. I do have a problem in baking in an enamelled covered casserole. If the dough is too wet or the loaf too large, the bottom crust burns before the center is done--even if I turn the temperature down to 425 ten minutes into the bake. One corrective is to turn the loaf out of the pot about ten minutes before it is done and finish it directly on the oven rack. (I don't have that problem in a bread cloche or a flower pot baker as they don't retain so much heat.) Sun May 10 13:04:29 -0700 2009 4667310 53369 Father Kitchen 2 4671368 Have had the same burning problem on the bottom--solved it using convection for the baking with the lid on, then turning the convection off when I take the lid off (or the top scorches...to quote Rosanne Rosanadana, "If it's not one thing, it's another.") Sun May 10 15:00:40 -0700 2009 4671129 123801 zamorski 1 4937270 I do a fast no knead, try for flat bread (sandwiches and toast MAXIMUM crust), 1 tsp instant yeast and 1 tsp red wine vinegar, bread flour, all else same. 3 rise with paddle knead on first two rise cycles, pour 3rd rise into preheated pan direct from rise container, 450 deg, 30 covered plus whatever to make top brown; the difference is more tart yeast effect and all else very similar. 5 hr. total, approx... watch video, dough ready if it is wet and falls in strands when poured. Tue Aug 11 12:58:38 -0700 2009 4667310 1100926 sfkling 2 4941132 This sounds good. Do you still use a dutch oven? Wed Aug 12 15:29:02 -0700 2009 4937270 15832 sharonanne 3 4942626 I have an old stainless Faberware dutchoven, 12 in and top with a lodge cast iron lid. again, I just pour the last rise into the pan, nothing extra, monitor rise in a covered plastic container, when doubled on last rise it is ready Thu Aug 13 06:36:56 -0700 2009 4941132 1100926 sfkling 4 4942691 Perfect, thanks. Thu Aug 13 06:59:08 -0700 2009 4942626 15832 sharonanne 1 4937676 You can do the second rise on a sheet of parchment paper, cut to size w/ a little extra on one side as a "handle." When you're ready to bake, just pull the whole thing into the dutch oven, or whatever pot you're using to bake. Before the second rising, make sure your hands are wet before you fold it. Tue Aug 11 14:55:25 -0700 2009 4667310 39874 chowser 2 4937712 I've taken to doing it on a *big* piece of parchment that I pick up by the four corners and plop into the pot. Put the lid on and let it go. No sticking, and I can also score the top before putting it into the oven which makes for a pretty top. This really works well. Sometimes mine is pretty wet, sometimes not, but it all turns out well. Tue Aug 11 15:05:16 -0700 2009 4937676 18353 DGresh 2 5009410 "You can do the second rise on a sheet of parchment paper, cut to size w/ a little extra on one side as a handle" That's nothing short of a brilliant idea! Sun Sep 06 13:33:51 -0700 2009 4937676 253154 Fritter 2 5009570 I think Cook's Illustrated made some such modification in their version of the recipe. I second chowser's recommendation, as after our first batch of NKB I spent a fair bit of time removing sticky glue-like dough adhesions from the tea towel after the washing machine failed to clean it. Sun Sep 06 15:06:22 -0700 2009 4937676 19782 Full tummy 3 5009812 Yes, they did, going on 3 years ago. That version has also been made on ATK. They say to line a skillet with a big sheet of parchment, which leaves a lot of it hanging over. Doing the final rise therein maintains the boule shape. I use two sheets because after the pot comes out of the oven, the paper is brown and brittle. Sometimes a single sheet doesn't hold together enough to help you get the bread out of the Dutch oven, but two sheets provide enough support. Sun Sep 06 17:22:18 -0700 2009 5009570 159317 greygarious 3 5009904 I still use the towel, but I don't dust it with wheat flour, because if that gets wet more gluten forms. My usual dusting is cornmeal, but I have used oat meal and oat flour to get effect. Some use wheat germ. And oat or wheat bran are other possibilites. Sun Sep 06 18:05:21 -0700 2009 5009570 53369 Father Kitchen 1 5300787 The recipe was found to be kinda fussy to make for us reg ppl,bread is funny like that,I watched Americas Test Kitchen re-Make this recipe & they say it works much better,I haven't made it yet seeing I had to get a Dutch Oven,kit..scale for flour & now I need to P.U a High temp knob for my pan & then I can see how it works,I think the name of the recipe is called Almost No knead bread & I think it can be found on there web site.... Wed Jan 06 11:14:45 -0800 2010 4667310 1137735 TashaLuv