616426 Fri May 01 09:51:22 -0700 2009 45 31 Home Cooking 0 4645565 Just bought a bag of King Arthur flour for the first time to experiment with in my baking. Have you noticed a difference with King Arthur vs. Gold Medal, and other flour brands? I noticed a recent thread that TJ's is no longer carrying KA but now carrying a TJ brand... What are people's thoughts and opinions on brands of flour, can you really tell the difference? Fri May 01 09:51:22 -0700 2009 174252 Carbear99 1 4645641 I go back and forth on this since it's more than twice the price for me to buy KA flour. I use both. If I'm baking cookies, bread, where it'll make a difference, I use KA. If I'm coating meat, making a roux, etc., I use cheaper flour. I use KA bread and white whole wheat flour almost exclusively. Although the cost throws me, when you come down to it, the cost per batch of cookies isn't that much higher--you're talking about a few dollars a month at most, if you bake often. Fri May 01 10:09:26 -0700 2009 4645565 39874 chowser 1 4645964 Just a thought- KA has a higher protein content than many other brands, including Gold Medal. So you might consider keeping it on hand for items like yeast bread, where it works especially well, and using a more affordable brand for items like cookies, which don't benefit from the extra protein (or items like biscuits, which prefer a low-protein flour, like southern brands... White Lily?). I believe Cook's Illustrated uses Gold Medal for their run-of-the-mill cooking. Fri May 01 11:31:19 -0700 2009 4645565 62469 happybellynh 2 4646130 This does not make sense. If one of the defining characteristics of a flour is its protein content, why should KA use a different standard that other brands? Fri May 01 12:11:40 -0700 2009 4645964 12139 paulj 3 4646187 Different resulting texture in the final product. Fri May 01 12:30:02 -0700 2009 4646130 155034 alwayscooking 3 4646344 KA is known for a particularly high protein content but there is a huge range among brands of AP flours. Shirley Corriher's book Bakewise has a chart where she lists the various protein contents. Fri May 01 13:14:59 -0700 2009 4646130 13396 Velda Mae 4 4646700 If GM AP is too low in protein, why not use their bread flour (instead of the KA AP)? Fri May 01 15:09:52 -0700 2009 4646344 12139 paulj 4 4678710 The publicly-viewable peek available at Amazon of Cookwise is all about flours and protein. Absolutely worth a read. Tue May 12 20:58:23 -0700 2009 4646344 40486 Cinnamon 5 4679887 I didn't realize that Cookwise also has that table of protein contents. It gives unbleached KA AP as 11.7% protein, other unbleached AP brands as 10-12, or 11-12 for other Northern brands (Robin Hood). This compares to 'bread flour' at 11.5-12.5. So if you want a consistently high protein flour, KA AP is a good choice, possibly even better than one labeled 'bread flour'. But Corriher also discusses the advantages of lower protein flour for things like cake, pie crusts, even muffins. It's interesting that many of us have accepted the idea that unbleached is better, more 'natural'. Yet the way Corriher puts it, bleached is, in many ways, superior for things like cakes. In the same way, we can easily fall for the 'higher protein is better' line. Wed May 13 09:29:23 -0700 2009 4678710 12139 paulj 6 4679967 It depends on whether your priority is texture, flavor, or nutritional value, for certain items. I use some whole wheat flour in my pie crusts because I like the flavor, even though it makes the dough harder to work with and yields a less flaky crust. If I were making a pie for company or a bake sale, I'd use a lower-protein flour for a better crust. I don't mind a coarser crumb in a simple homemade cake/quickbread/muffin, either. Wed May 13 09:51:24 -0700 2009 4679887 159317 greygarious 7 4682214 In her Pie and Pastry Bible, Rose Levy Beranbaum advocates adding a bit of whole wheat flour to pie crusts for the flavor and also because of WW flour's lower gluten content. I think the amount she adds is less than 1/2 cup (I don't have access to the book at the moment). I don't know how that compares to what you do, greygarious, but her technique is pretty involved and handling may be different than standard (I haven't used that particular recipe in the book). My mother makes all-butter pie crusts with all whole-wheat pastry flour, and they are surprisingly flaky, given the all butter, WW ingredients. I generally use all WW pastry flour in muffins, quick breads and the like, and I like the texture of the sturdier crumb. Wed May 13 21:05:16 -0700 2009 4679967 10074 Caitlin McGrath 7 4682272 I don't expect to make this in the very near future, but out of curiosity, what would you use to attempt an Italian pandoro ... those are the superlight, very, very risen white cakes that you dust with powdered sugar and then drizzle with cream and eat while warm. Would you use the least-protein cake flour readily available, or something else? Wed May 13 21:35:54 -0700 2009 4679967 40486 Cinnamon 8 4682592 Shirley Corriher recommends using the lowest protein flour for light cakes, eg. bleached cake flour. The more protein, the more chewy texture you will get. There are cakes/cookies that replace some flour with cornstarch to get the light ethereal texture. Thu May 14 04:57:00 -0700 2009 4682272 39874 chowser 9 4682956 Good to know, thank you. Thu May 14 07:40:31 -0700 2009 4682592 40486 Cinnamon 3 4646609 It's not that KA has a different standard, it's that EVERY company has a different standard. There's no standard, in fact. Fri May 01 14:35:37 -0700 2009 4646130 155583 modthyrth 2 4646302 The extra protein in cookies gives you chewier cookies. If you want cakier cookes, then less protein is good. In chocolate chip cookies, my favorite is using a mix of bread flour and cake flour. Fri May 01 13:04:34 -0700 2009 4645964 39874 chowser 1 4646198 Although a bit more expensive (at least in my area), KA tastes better and performs more consistently than QM in my experience. I'm guessing the QA is a tad more rigorous. Given that baking seems much more reliant on measures, I'll always use KA. For all other savory uses, I'll also use KA since it's in the pantry. Fri May 01 12:34:12 -0700 2009 4645565 155034 alwayscooking 2 4652105 This is Allison at King Arthur Flour and I thought a little clarification might help. The real value in King Arthur Flour - besides that it's always unbleached and all-natural - is that its protein content is very consistent. The protein content of King Arthur Flour is allowed to vary only by 0.2%, so every time you use it, it will perform the same way. Other national brands' protein contents can range up to 2% - meaning a bag of their all-purpose flour one day might be more like pastry flour in protein content, while a couple weeks later the protein content might be more like a bread flour. For consistent results in baking, KAF is your best bet. Thanks for this great discussion! Mon May 04 07:08:28 -0700 2009 4646198 283158 AllisonFurbish 3 4679259 Thanks for posting, Allison, that's great to know. I've always preferred KA and now I know why I had the gut reaction I had! :D Wed May 13 06:24:24 -0700 2009 4652105 119275 Morganna 3 4681592 Allison, Trader Joe's no longer sells KA flour, but there's a rumor circulating (posted in at least one Chowhound thread) that the house brand they sell for about the same price is made by KA. True or False? Wed May 13 17:22:09 -0700 2009 4652105 53530 Zeldog 4 4681613 False. KA has stated emphatically that their contract with Trader Joe's was not renewed, and they do not supply the current flour product. http://www.kingarthurflour.com/blog/2009/03/02/say-it-aint-so-joes/ Wed May 13 17:28:12 -0700 2009 4681592 59258 smtucker 5 4682262 They even had a little hand-printed sign in TJ's today by that flour saying there was no affiliation. Wed May 13 21:32:47 -0700 2009 4681613 40486 Cinnamon 4 4681630 I guess I could have done some basic research first. The answer is False. Oh well, I usually keep some cheap flour around for making roux or deep frying. http://www.kingarthurflour.com/blog/2009/03/02/say-it-aint-so-joes/ Wed May 13 17:32:46 -0700 2009 4681592 53530 Zeldog 1 4646242 I'm another one who keeps both in the house. Cheap flour for most uses, KA white and whole wheat for bread baking. Fri May 01 12:46:13 -0700 2009 4645565 25244 rockycat 2 4649006 Same. Whole Foods store brand for everyday, KA for bread. Their whole wheat is the closest I've ever gotten to freshly-milled as far as the resulting bread's texture and flavor. It really is much better than other brands of WW flour. I find I can make a 100% WW bread using KA and end up with a delicious, light bread, whereas with other brands the bread ends up with a sandpapery texture (not hearty but rough) and much less flavor. I don't necessarily see a big difference in non-yeast-bread applications. But my yeast bread does seem to benefit from the higher-quality KA. Sat May 02 18:25:25 -0700 2009 4646242 256229 LauraGrace 1 4646314 Whether or not KA flour is worth the extra cost is something you have to decide for yourself. For me, baking is one of my favorite hobbies--especially yeast breads--and I take great pride in my end product, so I want to use good quality ingredients that produce the best possible results. I have much better results with KA flours and if the price increased two-fold, I'd still buy KA. I can count on it's quality and consistency. I've recently used their Queen Guinevere Cake Flour and it produced the best cake crumb I've ever made. My pantry contains KA flours exclusively. It's for lack of space and convenience that I don't keep a "cheaper" brand on hand for thickening or dredging applications. Fri May 01 13:07:17 -0700 2009 4645565 239573 choco_lab38 2 4646474 i agree. i've got many different flours in the kitchen, but only one all-purpose white--KA. boy, it seems like you'd have to do an awful lot of dredging and rouxing to notice the savings of using cheaper flour for those applications. heck, the cost of the extra canister would eat up a year's savings. Fri May 01 13:50:25 -0700 2009 4646314 270283 silverhawk 1 4646426 In my experience the KA flours are better than the more common supermarket brands. I definitely get more air in my sourdoughs with KA Bread Flour and do even better the European-Style Artisan Bread Flour, which is pretty expensive, but worth it in my opinion. Fri May 01 13:34:10 -0700 2009 4645565 198087 David A. Goldfarb 2 4679212 I haven't tried The Euro style Artisan flour yet but I really like the French-Style and the Sir Lancelot high gluten flour. I use a LOT of their bread and AP flour as well. Definately worth the price. Wed May 13 06:05:14 -0700 2009 4646426 253154 Fritter 1 4646453 I've been baking for many years, and have used everything from no-name store brand to King Arthur flour. I am a KA fan....and to be honest, I don't know exactly why. I use KA flour for everything from buttermilk pancakes to bread, biscuits, cookies, pie crusts, and cakes. I coat fried chicken in it and cutlets for chicken parm. It does an overall great job on everything. KA makes bread flour, whole wheat flour and organic flour too. Maybe it is the extra protein, maybe it is just in my mind. I find KA to be a top notch quality product. Also, KA publishes consistently good recipes, such as the KA Elegant White Cake which I referenced in another thread. Never been disappointed in them either. I am lucky. In Conn, you can buy KA flour in just about any supermarket, and it often goes on sale. Fri May 01 13:43:41 -0700 2009 4645565 10726 TrishUntrapped 2 4682604 I want to clarify my above statement. Since we were talking about King Arthur flour, I wanted to say that as a general all purpose flour I use it for everything, which I do. When it comes to cakes, I use KA when I am making a buttermilk chocolate cake and things like that.... However, when I am making a lighter cake, I use cake flour (Swan's Down or SoftasSilk. For bread, I sometimes use KA bread flour, sometimes all purpose.... Thu May 14 05:08:27 -0700 2009 4646453 10726 TrishUntrapped 1 4646823 I love King Arthur products. Fri May 01 16:00:20 -0700 2009 4645565 66481 Guenevere 2 4647769 No surprise, Guenevere... ;-) Sat May 02 06:19:15 -0700 2009 4646823 10726 TrishUntrapped 1 4647036 KA for all baking needs...any decent AP flour for thickening purposes. Fri May 01 17:38:12 -0700 2009 4645565 24738 LJS 1 4647676 Yes, KA flour is worth it. Aside from better and consistent end results I get out of my breads with it, I also like the company itself (it's employee-owned and operated). They seem like really nice folks, from what I read on their blog and baking sheets. Sat May 02 04:38:34 -0700 2009 4645565 67436 stilton 1 4648156 Another great reason for usings King Arthur Flour is the lack of addatives. They don't bleach or bromate their flour. I was recently told that one of the reason for so many people having gluten intolerance problems maybe conected to the use of bleach in our flours. The reason for the slightly higher protein levels in their flours is that when the compay began (1890!) they were selling to Northern Bakers who maked mostly bread. The back of their Baker's Companion Cookbook has alot good information in it. I recently took it out of my library. http://www.amazon.com/King-Arthur-Flour-Bakers-Companion/dp/0881505811/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241283265&sr=8-1 Sat May 02 09:56:04 -0700 2009 4645565 117271 Stuffed Monkey 2 4648260 I love the bakers companion. Everything I've made has been great. It got me started on bread, and really explains things well. It's the kind of book where you learn enough to not follow the recipes. Sat May 02 10:46:01 -0700 2009 4648156 215278 corneygirl 1 4648840 Does anyone know how the new Trader Joe's flours compare in protein content to King Arthur? TJ's is clearly trying to copy KA with the packaging, so I'm wondering if the protein contents are comparable. Sat May 02 16:29:09 -0700 2009 4645565 48292 powella 1 4649037 Frankly, I have found that paying the extra expense for specialty flours is a waste of money. I often bake sourdough bread (boule, batard) using inexpensive, often bleached, all purpose flour. The results are admirable with a great crumb, excellent tooth, perfect crust, great flavor. I buy the AP flour where it's on sale. I do sometimes use a bread flour (Pillsbury or Gold Medal are the most common choice) but only if I can find it on sale and I am going to prepare enough bread to make it worth the additional cost. AP flour serves nearly every purpose I have for flour in my kitchen. My avatar is one of my recent Ciabatta breads. Here's a link to one of my most recent products: http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn169/topturner/Bestyet8.jpg Here's a comparison of flour made by another baker: http://www.finecooking.com/articles/choosing-flour-for-baking.aspx See if this information helps. Sat May 02 18:44:46 -0700 2009 4645565 203621 todao 2 4679385 todao - your bread looks amazing - care to share a recipe? :) Wed May 13 07:03:03 -0700 2009 4649037 51849 okra 1 4679519 FWIW - KA's website has a free-entry $1000 sweepstakes currently going on. Also, when I signed up for their e-newsletters, they offered $5 off an order of $40 or more. Wed May 13 07:46:58 -0700 2009 4645565 159317 greygarious 1 4682146 Here's a photo of tonight's pain au levain made with the Euro-style Artisan Flour. Wed May 13 20:25:43 -0700 2009 4645565 198087 David A. Goldfarb 2 4682594 That's beautiful. I've never seen Euro-style artisan flour. I assume it's higher in protein than bread flour? Nice background placement of the flour, btw. Thu May 14 04:58:25 -0700 2009 4682146 39874 chowser 3 4682616 Thanks. I've only been able to get it by ordering online. It took me a while to get over the idea of paying to ship flour, but the shopping cart on the KA website has a handy shipping calculator to figure out how to get the most out of the shipping cost. The Artisan Flour actually has 11.7% protein (same as KA Unbleached All-Purpose Flour) as opposed to KA Bread Flour, which is 12.7%, but it's part white whole wheat flour and has some ascorbic acid for a little extra spring. Here's the description-- http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/king-arthur-european-style-artisan-bread-flour-3-lb Now a question would be--could I make this blend from less expensive KA flours and a little ascorbic acid? I suspect so. Next time I'll order some White Whole Wheat and see if I can get similar results by combining with Unbleached AP and adding some ascorbic acid to the recipe. Thu May 14 05:15:58 -0700 2009 4682594 198087 David A. Goldfarb 4 4683016 I see that you are in NYC - in the Boston area KA White Whole Wheat is sold in most supermarkets, as is their whole wheat pastry and regular bread flours, plus the standard unbleached AP, of course. Thu May 14 07:57:54 -0700 2009 4682616 159317 greygarious 5 4684267 In NYC more markets are carrying KA, but mainly just AP, WW, and Bread Flour. Occasionally I see one or two of the others. Thu May 14 13:41:37 -0700 2009 4683016 198087 David A. Goldfarb