Fire Code bans use of barbecues on decks of apts. and condos - HELP

[RWCFoodie]

So I'm not sure if this is the appropriate board for this but I'm desperate and need your help and suggestions... Moving at this time is not an option! We live in a condo (which is a hell in itself but that's another subject).

A couple of months ago we were notified in our association newsletter that a law has been enacted that prohibits the use of charcoal or propane barbecues on decks, balconies and patios with less than 10 feet of clearance from a combustible surface unless the area is equipped with automatic fire sprinklers. This law applies to anything other than a single dwelling or duplex.

Granted, there are many more urgent and important issues that we all face but this is vexing to say the least. We have been notified that the insurance company who covers our entire complex is threatening to cancel our insurance unless people remove their barbecues from their decks. At this point no one is using their barbecues but we're not taking them off our decks.

Does anyone have any idea how to try to fight this? I feel that we are being discriminated against as a class but I believe that we'll not be able to find a lawyer who believes this is worth the time to try to fight... I love to grill my food and feel that my personal freedom is being taken away from me!

Help me Chowhounds... (I know I can get one of those Weber 100 or 200 propane grills that uses the small propane canisters but I really dislike the product a propane grill produces plus we had just bought a new charcoal Weber that has a propane starter - a $300 or so product. Bought it just before we got the notification of the new law and had only used it 3-4 times... now it sits on my deck taunting me.

Here's the gist of what the code reads:

In 2007, California updated its Fire Code and adopted portions of the 2006 International Fire Code, including sections 308.3.1 and 308.3.1.1. Those sections effectively ban the use of open-flame cooking devices on combustible decks. This ban became operative on January 1st, 2008. The code is not available online, but you will find a copy of the code in most libraries. The sections read as follows:

308.3.1 Open-flame cooking devices. Charcoal burners and other open-flame cooking devices shall not be operated on combustible balconies or within 10 feet (3048 mm) of combustible construction.

Exceptions:
1. One- and two-family dwellings.
2. Where buildings, balconies and decks are protected by an automatic sprinkler system.

308.3.1.1 Liquefied-petroleum-gas-fueled cooking devices. LP-gas burners having an LP-gas container with a water capacity greater than 2.5 pounds [nominal 1 pound (0.454 kg) LP-gas capacity] shall not be located on combustible balconies or within 10 feet (3048 mm) of combustible construction.

Exception: One- and two-family dwellings.

[kchurchill5]

I did some looking into it and from what I found US, Canada and many places, it isn't the condo or apts, it is city , county or state codes usually. I live first floor and I had to temporarily give away my great webber, but I can get it back. Now I have a small charcoal, which use but just move out a bit. I also have a webber gas which I don't like as well, but I do use it all the time. My smoker, I have a charcoal in storage, but bought a electric and it works ok, I put lots of wood chips and flavor so I get a good result Balconies are not as easy. I'm bottom floor so I have pretty much taken over my front which I love. I would be lost without that. I may be wrong but even small propane we can not use, not totally sure but if they see a grill, we get written up, warned and then fined if we keep it and use it. I wish it was different, but I did see a fire started by a grill on a balcony, not pretty. On my deck at the house I always as a precaution had a grill mat on the bottom and then I even poured a gallon of water on the wood around, just in case when I used the charcoal grill. I have seen what can happen. But I do emphasize

[LJS]

You shouldn't give up on the option of converting fellow owners to re-think that communal BBQ area. It only takes a majority vote. This is what happened in our condo where balcony units are banned (except for penthouse units).

[RWCFoodie]

LJS: I can only hope that the board will consider this alternative. If not, I may have to go door to door and circulate a petition!

Interestingly, after the newsletter went out saying that we had to get the barbecues off the decks, the Pres. and another board mbr. didn't do anything - their gas grills are still on their decks....

Stay tuned, I will try to go the meeting tomorrow night and see if I can sway their votes to installing a common area barbecue!

[weezycom]

I've lived in condos before where a couple of BBQ pits were built in the common area on the grounds and if you wanted to grill, you had to come downstairs and use those.

Another option is to perfect the oven-tea-smoking technique that the Cook's Illustrated folks have used with lapsang suchong tea. That's a pretty good alternative taste wise.

[Mawrter]

I don't know a thing about the legality of your situation, but if it works out that you have to live without outdoor grilling, may I suggest one of these: https://secure.lodgemfg.com/storefron...

We have one and I thought it might be overkill, since we have a grill, but it's the awesome. Love that thing. Smear a little bacon grease on it, put it in your oven, get it nuclear-hot, and then sear your meat. You will be a happy chowhound. Truly.

[alwayscooking]

I live on the top floor of a Boston brownstone built in the 1880's. Each of the five floors is a separate unit with a balcony off the back. Like you, there are laws against any open flame (charcoal or propane). Unlike you, the laws are unenforced and everyone has a grill.

I hate it (although I do have a grill on the roof deck!).

On warm summer nights, every grill is going. The smoke travels up the side of the building and, because I'm on the top floor and the wind flows through my condo, it all floods my place. Given the lower units' placement, they avoid the issue. I'm thinking of hanging some meat to cure with the smoke - except I don't eat meat ,making the smell especially maloderous.

Grilling is not necessarily the most neighborly pursuit in a crowded space.

I did increase my insurance

[kelela92]

Just a thought....can you use your BBQ in front of your garage? I konw it's soooo not as fun as a deck, but here at my condo complex, some of the patios are enclosed, so people just roll their bbq's out into the alleyways (where our garage doors are) and start cooking right there. It's a way around not doing it on your deck.

Personally, and IMHO, I'm glad for the ban. If my home went up in flames because someone was using charcoal and wasn't paying attention, I'd sue big time. I agree with some others, it's not only your home you're endangering. Good luck on fighting the state on this one.

[paulj]

Depending on the spacing between units, charcoal smoke can also be a nuisance.

[bakinggirl]

I know it sucks...we used to live in military housing, in townhouses, so I know that the regulation is hard to deal with. I'm sure that your HOA won't do much to help you, but I think some of the previous ideas are valid. In any case I'd try to get everyone to stow the BBQs until you can come up with a solution that will work.
About a year ago, there was a very large apartment fire in my area and around 150 residents lost their homes. Luckily no one lost their lives, but it was a quick moving fire and people had no time to save pets, momentos etc. I think that in situations like this, the public good outweighs the personal preference - accidents can and do happen, and the state is trying to protect people.
You mentioned not wanting/being able to move, but you've given up many of your personal freedoms by buying the condo and therefore the HOA. Not trying to say "I told you so" but I think many people don't realize the restrictions on their freedoms when they buy a condo or home in an HOA.

[pikawicca]

Laws like this are extremely common, and seem like simple common sense.

[pollymerase]

I think this is pretty standard, at least it has been for my current and previous two apartments (3 different cities in 3 different states). But I agree, it stinks.

[DGresh]

Reading what you wrote it's not clear that even propane is ok; are you sure it is? Your first paragraph says it's not. Or does it just have to be a really small propane tank? (how big is a 1 lb LP tank anyway ?)

I agree with others, you are unlikely to beat this thing. Law is law, and it's a defensible law, protecting everyone.

[embee]

It's the tank sold (filled) from hardware store shelves that powers propane torches - in a Chowhound sense, a kitchen brule torch.

While it's an ecologically unsound (these tanks are throwaways) and relatively expensive way to use propane, most North American jurisdictions allow you to both store AND USE them indoors. If I read the code that the OP quoted correctly, a propane cooking device using this size tank would be legal.

A tank of this size would typically power a small grill for a few hours - definitely long enough to cook several meals. You can keep additional tanks on hand to avoid running out.

Although I would not contemplate using an 1800 F infrared grill indoors, there's a good chance it would be legal to do so in most places.

Where I live, Toronto, balcony grilling is legal. I should note, though, that virtually all apartment/condo buildings constructed here since the fifties are fire resistive. Some new condos actually provide natural gas outlets on their balconies. Landlords and condo boards often have restrictions that prohibit balcony grilling anyway, but the law isn't the culprit. One rental building where I lived for a while allowed charcoal, wood, or propane, with the restriction that propane tanks above 1 pound could not be taken on the elevators.

Interestingly, most developed countries and modern cities outside North America are much less restrictive. It isn't unusual to power a gas stove from a 20 or 40 pound propane tank stored in a kitchen cupboard.

[DGresh]

thanks. Really little then. How long can one of those last in a grill? I have to refill my "normal" tank often enough as it is.

[embee]

See edited post above. Unfortunately, you can't refill these at all. You need to have a couple of extras on hand - they are widely available.

[JohnE O]

RWC, if you look at it from the association's point of view, they are responsible for any liability arising out of the complex. There is just far too much exposure in allowing everyone to have a grill on their deck. It's not a discrimination issue, it's a public safety issue. I guarantee you that the building design was not intended for outdoor grills. See the part in the code about "combustible construction". No matter how conscientious people are it's never a terrific idea to have flames in confined spaces covered in flammable material, especially with a greater number of people in close proximity.

[HillJ]

Enlist the support and professional expertise of your local fire marshall. Ask him for viable solutions and draft a letter to your HOA signed by every condo owner impacted by the insurance change. Then contact your insurance company. You might discover several solutions, you might learn its not going to change but enlisting the help of a pro with nothing but factual information to offer is a strong alliance.

I would not ignore the ruling, I would not ignore an insurance company. But, I do hope you find a group (neighbor to neighbor) solution.

[beevod]

Move to the country?

[rockandroller1]

There's really nothing you can do. As much as we all might love it, grilling is not a "right" and the association has the right and power to ban it if they want to. You'll have to stop grilling and go out to a park to grill or move. this is a common prohibition in all the apartment complexes I've lived in. Some do provide stationary grills throughout the complex in places they deem safe, but we ended up just making it a "cookout" and going to a park when we want to grill out, or else just broiling indoors. There are worse things in life than not being allowed to grill outdoors.

[porker]

Interesting how Americans have the "right" to bear arms, but BBQ is illegal...

[KTinNYC]

BBQ's are not illegal. They have just been banned in some circumstances just like firearms are banned in certain circumstances.

The OP happens to live in a condo where association has deemed it a violation of the rules due to safety concerns. This is a rule made by a board, not a law. The OP has the option of selling his condo and finding a place to live that allows grilling and BBQing.

[KaimukiMan]

No, the condo association did not make the determination. The state or city adopted new building codes, and those codes can be enforced by any number of agencies, including both the condo association and the insurance company. Because of a combination of factors condominium associations are highly vulnerable to lawsuits, and insurance carriers are increasingly reluctant to cover them. I doubt the condo association would find any other carrier that would provide coverage with the knowledge that barbecues were being allowed in violation of the law.. And building codes are law. Conformance is not optional.

[KTinNYC]

Ugh, you are right.

[RWCFoodie]

KTinNYC:
Sorry, you are wrong. If you read what I posted to start this thread, I cited the code number and wording for the law that was passed by the Calif. State Fire Marshall.

Our condo association is attempting to enforce the law with the inclusion of the strong arm of the insurance company...

Tomorrow night our HOA board is meeting to discuss the possibility of installing a barbecue for all of us to use perhaps in the pool area but I believe that they will vote this idea down because of the maintenance and cleaning it would require...

Our CC&Rs and By-Laws also specifically prohibit the use of a barbecue anywhere in the common area. I had already thought about wheeling our grill out into the common area but then read that prohibition... This is a no- win situation unfortunately for those of us who like to barbecue.

And, yes to all of you, I realize that we have the alternative of moving!

[KaimukiMan]

RCW, as the law will no longer allow you to use a barbecue at your own unit then you have a strong reason to change some other part of the CC&R's. Remember, condo boards are elected. If you get a petition with enough of the owner's signatures, you can probably get them to agree to a reasonable compromise. Most likely a specific, and safe, portion of the common grounds can be designated for barbecues. You may need to sign up or inform the resident manager or a designated board member when you want to barbecue so each person is responsible to clean up after themselves.

We have two barbecue grilles where I live, and of all the issues that come up at board meetings, these have never been a problem.

[Bite Me]

Very frustrating. If the HOA does not allow a common area with a grill - like off of a pool deck - you'll have to sell, lose your shirt on the sale, and move to a cheaper neighborhood.

On a different but related note, we live in a condo and the lady below is very old. She leaves things on the stove and I can smell the pot burning. Fortunately, nothing has happened, but I worry....

[embee]

If I understand your post correctly, propane grills are not considered "open flame", and you can use a standard one pound propane tank legally.

While you mention not liking propane, I suggest that you look seriously into propane fueled infra red. Napoleon and Solaire (and possibly others as well) make lightweight portable units that can run with a small propane tank.

Infra red grilling is sensational - it's much different from grilling over a standard burner. I'm talking 1500 - 1800 F, which creates a very rapid sear and a grilled flavour. If you want a smoky flavour, place some dampened wood chips on heavy duty foil, put the foil on the grill with the food, and close the cover.

I obviously can't visualize your balcony and I'm not aware of your condo's specific rules, but "fireproofing" your cooking area is not inconceivable. There are many possible flooring materials. For above and around, fire code drywall can slip through as a "decorative" item. All of this can be removed easily when you move out, and you might be able to get a rider for your personal liability insurance if you have a good broker/agent. If you aren't allowed any non-standard "decor" on your balcony, of course, you're out of luck.

While it will be faint consolation, at least the fire code in this case deals with a genuine hazard. A grill upset, or one dropped piece of burning coal, can burn your building to the ground. Many years ago, I got talking to someone for a few minutes and suddenly noticed that the deck railing was on fire.

I know people who have concrete balconies, with brick walls, attached to fire resistive buildings. Open flame balcony grilling is legal (though you can't bring a 20 lb propane tank into a building), but the condo boards (not the fire dept) say NO! That's really, really mean.

[podunkboy]

It could be worse -- I hear there are places in Europe (Belgium, I believe) where because of pollution controls they've banned charcoal cooking outdoors and even indoor fireplaces, and they're using helicopters with infrared sensors to find violators.
I guess I understand the safety issues of having an open fire that close to a flammable multi-dwelling, but to not give you a safe place to char your food as nature intended is just wrong!
Having my own grill and garden were the two main reasons I moved out of an apartment and into a house.

[free sample addict aka Tracy L]

I feel your pain, I live in a condo too. I left my weber with my ex because I can't have it on my deck. The cc & rs don't allow for any clearance where I live so we're limited to the park style grills in designated areas. One thought, can you as a group influence the association to change insurance companies? You'd have to do some research in order to compare companies. Is the association willing to provide a barbecue area? I have qualms about some of my neighbors barbecuing so I can fully understand the rules even though I don't like them. Last, I look at my barbecue situation as only temporary. In the next few years I will own my home again and will have a new appreciation for outdoor cooking.

[duck833]

I think this change in the standard codes is getting adopted throughout the country. One of my employee's has a medium Big Green Egg, paid about $750 for it, she has to get rid of it now.

Nobody ever said it was fair!!!

[queencru]

I live in an area with a 50' rule and can't say I know anyone who gave up the grill. It seems like most people just put the grill in an outdoor storage closet or garage. I know in my neighborhood we get warnings a few times a year but I still smell grilling on a regular basis.

[BobB]

Which is great until a fire starts and the insurance company refuses to pay.

[KaimukiMan]

or the fire department finds an infant in a crib who died of smoke inhalation. Yeah, a barbecue on the deck is worth that.

[queencru]

I am not saying it's a great philosophy, but it's the reality of what happens in most communities when this rule is in force. With a 50' rule and older communities, there's not much option for a communal grill because everything is too close together.

[mojoeater]

I feel your pain, yet understand the need to prevent fires. Yes, having an open flame under someone else's deck is indeed dangerous. I really don't see you winning a legal battle here.

Does your condo have an outdoor communal area of some sort? Perhaps you and some of your neighbors can get together and place a few grills there. You can even chain them down to prevent theft.

[RWCFoodie]

mojoeater: I did make a request to the board of our HOA to allow putting a bbq in either the pool area or somewhere else in the common area of the complex.... no response yet. But I believe they will not allow this.

So my choice is to either defy the ban and risk a $500 fine from the fire dept., buy a new grill with the small propane tank or sell and buy a house! That's what I want to do but DH doesn't want to leave the area and I don't want to spend over a million and pay the associated property taxes in our area...

Grrrrr

[porker]

I have friends who live in specific neighborhoods in Montreal with similar bans. I think its nuts and my heart goes out. I have two two grills, two smokers, and a pit and I don't know what I'd do in a similar situation.

Fighting city hall may be an uphill battle that can't be won, or quite expensive, or last long after our final embers go out.
My only suggestion would be to get around the law somehow.
Can you make your balcony non-combustible?
Perhaps an automatic sprinkler system (maybe 2 heads and a detector connected to your water supply) for the deck is an option?

I know these suggestions sound far fetched...maybe they're not feasible, but maybe thinking outside the box is whats needed.

Sorry dude, thats the best I have.

My heart is heavy.

[RWCFoodie]

Porker: I agree that fighting City Hall is probably an impossibility. Circumventing the law is not doable, at least not from the standpoint of having an automatic sprinkler installed on our deck: the code reads that the entire complex would have to be so equipped. Talk the board and the other 40 owners into spending $$$ to do this? Yeah, right. Nor is having a fire extinguisher on your deck an option.

I've been thinking about this now for the 3 months we've known about it...

[paulj]

Ever seen an apartment fire caused by a grill on the deck? Do you want that to happed to the unit above yours? Smoke and water damage can affect you even if the flames don't. Sometimes fighting for your 'rights' isn't worth the pain in the pocket book.

How about switching to an electric grill? I've been eying of the the designs that has a water tray below the grill, and a grill surface that can be removed and cleaned (e.g. one by Sanyo). I wonder how much difference there is between such a grill and a propane one.

[RWCFoodie]

paulj: yes, I know there are apt fires caused by grills - but there are apt and home fires caused by people deep frying in their kitchens - and apts and homes burn down from dropped cigarettes, candles and Christmas tree lights. Extension cords cause all kinds of fires. How about space heaters? Shall we ban all of these too?

Accidents happen in all kinds of places and for all kinds of reasons. I'm just very frustrated by this...

[PeterL]

Accident happens in a single home. One family is affected. Accident happens in a multi unit apartment building, many families are affected. Escape from fire in a single family house, relatively easy. Escape from fire in a multi story apartment building, relatively difficult.

See the difference?