612693 Fri Apr 17 04:58:52 -0700 2009 204 33 Food Media and News 0 4603626 Here's the flip side to what chefs hate: http://heavytable.com/25-things-diners-hate-about-restaurants/ I would add: the waitperson comes up to you and asks: "still working on that?" Geesh. I'm dining, not working. "Would you like me to clear your plate?" is the appropriate question, and should not come while I'm chewing and there is food on my plate. Fri Apr 17 04:58:52 -0700 2009 33755 NYchowcook 1 4603648 the only thing I would disagree with is not refilling wine glasses. At a fancy restaurant I do not expect to fill my own, particularly if it's white in a cooler next to the table. You can deal with the issue of perhaps someone not wanting any more by making eye contact and getting a nod before pouring. I think that's all it takes. Fri Apr 17 05:11:08 -0700 2009 4603626 18353 DGresh 2 4604062 jfood thinks the point is that some may want one glass and some may want more than one. For example, Mrs jfood has a tad of wine andonlyone tad. So when her glass looks wanting it is not while the others at the table are finishing the bottle. Fri Apr 17 07:56:51 -0700 2009 4603648 11290 jfood 3 4604332 that's why i said the waiter ought to make eye contact with the "servee" before filling. If they don't want any, they can shake him off. Fri Apr 17 09:18:21 -0700 2009 4604062 18353 DGresh 4 4604361 Usually tough at the jfood tables since there is usually tremendous yapping going on. But, yes, that is a great approach. Fri Apr 17 09:27:19 -0700 2009 4604332 11290 jfood 5 4605855 Yapping is a great thing. Fri Apr 17 18:03:53 -0700 2009 4604361 36661 Sam Fujisaka 6 4605877 If YOU own the little dog. Neighbors have a different opinion. Fri Apr 17 18:16:41 -0700 2009 4605855 57170 Veggo 7 4609976 Especially when it's a Chihuahua or Spitz. Their incessant yapping can be triggered simply by any surrounding neighbor just thinking about thinking... I'll control the flow of drinks - just keep my water full. Sun Apr 19 18:32:29 -0700 2009 4605877 64003 bulavinaka 8 4628598 When the dog's a yapping the vodka I'm tapping...(and then the dog better watch it!...just kidding...I would never hurt a little yapping dog...as long as it shuts the hell up...no, kidding again...I love little yapping dogs...unless I have a hangover of course...wait, no no no....ah to hell with this....back to the drinking...I'll pour my own, thanks) ;-D> Sat Apr 25 17:18:18 -0700 2009 4609976 108169 Servorg 3 4604442 In addition to that, sometimes I am out with someone who always drinks a lot more than their fair share of the wine, leaving everyone else without enough to finish their meal. Usually it's no problem to just tell the server thanks but no thanks, we'll handle the wine pouring. Fri Apr 17 09:51:38 -0700 2009 4604062 29811 Buckethead 2 4606873 I can pour my own wine, tyvm. I HATE when waiters top off my glass because they ALWAYS overfill it. I don't want more than six ounces of wine in my glass, even if it's in a 16oz Riedel stem. That way I can swirl it. I can't do that if it's 2/3 full. Sat Apr 18 09:43:09 -0700 2009 4603648 193486 meadandale 3 4612339 Yup me too! I am like that with all my beverages...I only like a litle at a time. It tastes better that way! I like Gin & tonics so much better the way they are served in the UK. They put the gin in your glass and give you a little bottle of tonic on the side...this way you can pour as little/as much as you want! Mon Apr 20 13:44:39 -0700 2009 4606873 174753 NellyNel 4 4612557 nn, i'm laughing quietly to myself. london is a mild climate, singapore, on the other hand, is hot and humid. a gin and tonic, as you describe, makes great sense there. totally agree with you. Mon Apr 20 14:42:15 -0700 2009 4612339 10627 steve h. 5 5177403 Maybe it was apocryphal, but I always understood the popularity of gin and tonic to the English in SE Asia was that the original tonic water contained quinine, and protected them in part from malaria. Or was that just something I read in a Graham Greene novel? Thu Nov 12 18:18:03 -0800 2009 4612557 1104506 FrankD 6 5179104 Tonic water still contains quinine; that's what gives it its distinctive flavor (bitter lemon, too). An effective antimalarial dose would make for a fairly undrinkable drink, I suspect, but perhaps it was reinforcement. Regardless, it is very refreshing in hot weather, with or without gin. The limes no doubt came into play in SE Asia, not Britain! Fri Nov 13 10:47:29 -0800 2009 5177403 10074 Caitlin McGrath 7 5179164 >>"An effective antimalarial dose would make for a fairly undrinkable drink"<< Apparently the FDA limits the amount of quinine in tonic water to about half the concentration found in therapeutic tonics. Bartender, another of the same... Fri Nov 13 11:00:01 -0800 2009 5179104 58743 alanbarnes 8 5179205 Works for me. Fri Nov 13 11:10:53 -0800 2009 5179164 10074 Caitlin McGrath 2 4609565 I worked in fine dining, and one of our steps of service was to refill wine like this. I never liked doing because I personally don't like when the server does it, and for the variety of reasons that people have mentioned below, esp. the feeling of trying to push people into another bottle. It was always completely appropriate to wave the server off and say you'd prefer to do it yourself, so that's what I do now, Sun Apr 19 15:34:32 -0700 2009 4603648 263586 LPhila 3 4609717 This is a "can't win for losing" situation. I think it's customary to assume that pouring wine is among the server's responsibilities. However some people prefer to do it themselves. If you fall into the latter category, it's very simple to just advise your server that you prefer to pour yourself. Seems like nothing to get in a snit over (unless they disregard your request to leave the pouring to the diners after being asked). www.foodforthoughtmiami.com Sun Apr 19 16:50:23 -0700 2009 4609565 35525 Frodnesor 4 4609723 very well put! Sun Apr 19 16:52:54 -0700 2009 4609717 263586 LPhila 4 4623474 I wonder if the solution is just the waiter asking "would you like me to handle the pouring tonight or do you prefer to handle that on your own?" I would be pleased as punch with that. I wonder why I never did that when waitering?? Hmmm... Thu Apr 23 17:19:07 -0700 2009 4609717 137755 Sal Vanilla 3 4609775 In fine dining, I expect the server to pour the wine and that it will often be done without me noticing. There's a balance fine dining needs to strike: to enhance the eating and drinking experience and to customize service to each table's desires. Sun Apr 19 17:17:07 -0700 2009 4609565 71350 lergnom 2 4610288 Agreed, but 99.999% of the time the server either (a) lets the wine glass go empty for too long or (b) overfills the glass. So generally speaking, I'd rather take matters into my own hands. I've eaten at a lot of restaurants over the years, including a number with Michelin stars, and one - count 'em, ONE - has had wine service so good that I never even considered that pouring my own would be better. FWIW, the restaurant was Acquerello in SF. The sommelier was a woman who appeared to be in her 20s. She had an assistant who backstopped her. And it was one of the better dining experiences I've ever had. Sun Apr 19 21:15:26 -0700 2009 4603648 58743 alanbarnes 3 4668336 It's not just with wine. It's also with coffee--even diet cola. I've noticed it at Perkins restaurants, the infamous Machine Shed restaurants, even the food stands at the Iowa State Fair, for example. There are times when I have to tell the server "STOP SERVING ME MORE COLA (or coffee)!!! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!" I wish those restaurants' servers were more courteous. They should ask if the customer wants a refill before going ahead and pouring one, for example. The customer might be leaving the restaurant, for example. Never assume anything. Sat May 09 07:10:10 -0700 2009 4610288 115014 Braniff 4 4668356 Um, relax. You don't have to drink it. Sat May 09 07:20:08 -0700 2009 4668336 92744 invinotheresverde 5 4688772 And why is the Machine Shed ``infamous?'' I've only been when passing through, but I think the food is kind of delicious. Sat May 16 01:51:23 -0700 2009 4668356 10702 condiment 6 4689324 Huh? Sat May 16 09:31:23 -0700 2009 4688772 92744 invinotheresverde 5 5177412 Well, I remember Jim Belushi in a movie making the point to the waitress who filled his cup without asking that he'd just gotten it the perfect shade of brown, so I can see times when you might cheesed. Think it was the one where Ahhnold played a cop from Russia and Jim was a Chicago cop assigned to assist him. Thu Nov 12 18:21:33 -0800 2009 4668356 1104506 FrankD 6 5177762 I'm sure the elusive "perfect shade of brown" isn't really all that elusive. Thu Nov 12 21:42:18 -0800 2009 5177412 92744 invinotheresverde 2 4623460 Putting my hand over my glass seems to work - or waving off. I sometimes say, catch me next round - thanks. Works every time. And for grins - I get a little annoyed if someone tops off my iced tea before I am half way thru because it is convenient for them. I put sweetener in it and messing with the ratio constantly can get old. Kudos and big hugs to all the hard working waiters out there! Thu Apr 23 17:14:39 -0700 2009 4603648 137755 Sal Vanilla 1 4603671 Here's another - put an example of your menu online with prices, now a line of "Menu chnages daily." Sure, I know you want to be sustainable and local and that your menu may change daily with availability of ingredients. But I'd like to get an idea of how inventive you are and how much it might cost me, instead of trooping all the way out to your restaurant before I find out that you're really just an expensive-but-boring sandwich shop. Fri Apr 17 05:30:13 -0700 2009 4603626 141572 meuri 1 4603833 I don't think this is a very well constructed list, nor put together with very much insight. For example, at many restaurants I've served at, they require you to clear as much of the table as you can as you go along throughout service, and to do so extremely promptly. I have been TIMED as to how long someone's dirty plate has sat on the table, for example; everyone is trained to pull a dirty plate off of anyone else's table as soon as they see it is empty. I would also say nearly every single restaurant I've worked at, for LUNCH service, requires you to "check back/check down." This means when you check back with the table after they've taken a couple of bites to find out if everything is ok, you put the check down on the table at that time as well, because people at lunch are generally in a hurry. It's delivered with the comment that they are welcome to add on to that at any time and is only being delivered promptly as a courtesy, and we do ask after they are done eating if they want dessert and/or coffee, but once the check is already there, they almost always say no. At dinner, you are also timed as to when you bring the check. You do bring the dessert tray and offer desserts and coffees, but if they say no you must bring the check immediately. If a manager happens by and sees a table that is clearly done eating and just sipping at drinks, they will come and find you and say "why is 34 just sitting there, are they done?" and if you answer yes they will say, "well, you need to drop the check!" As to offering something and not mentioning that it's extra, I can tell you that in chain restaurants you are REQUIRED to offer any and all extras at every step of the way in ordering, via a specific, word-by-word script and you do NOT mention that it is extra. If asked, you can say yes, it's 25 cents extra or whatever, but if you go off script, you can get into big trouble. Managers in these restaurants specifically eavesdrop on waiters while appearing to innocuously float through the dining room or clean a dirty table next to where you are sitting, they are listening to the server to make sure they are saying exactly what they are supposed to, no more and no less. And all the chains I've worked at also are frequently "shopped" (secret shoppers) and the shoppers have an actual list of things the server is supposed to say and you get graded on how many you actually say throughout service of the table, then a report is sent to the restaurant and the manager discusses how poorly or how well you did in front of the entire shift prior to dinner service by going over the report card. "Well, rockandroller did NOT offer to add mushrooms and onions to the steak that was ordered, so she was docked a point for that. Also, when the 4 guests each ordered a beer, she should have offered the "bucket of beers" deal to try to get them to order 6 beers instead of just the 4. She also did not offer to upgrade their baked potato to a loaded baked." Etc. Fri Apr 17 06:43:07 -0700 2009 4603626 19518 rockandroller1 2 4604416 Seems to me that all these "requirements" are being driven by the owner/manager who wants to turn over tables as quickly as possible and not because the diners want it that way. If I want to spend 30 minutes over coffe after a nice meal, leave me alone. Go shoo someone else out the door. Although there are several more gripes I would add, I think the list is quite well put together. Fri Apr 17 09:45:37 -0700 2009 4603833 124339 bnemes3343 2 4604424 Well, this seems to apply mostly to Chains where the whole customer-server shpiel is regulated to the max. Fri Apr 17 09:46:55 -0700 2009 4603833 116513 linguafood 3 4604458 Agreed, though I have worked at 2 indie places that had rules and regs similar to a chain's. Where I live, chains are unfortunately favored by the masses so many of the indies try to mimic the "chain" experience. I actually think (wish) there would be 2 articles - one for "what I hate about eating at chainr restaurants" and one for what you hate about dining at indie places, though again, I think the latter would be very hard to generalize about since experiences are all over the board. I've only been to one place that tops off your water after each little sip and only a couple where they try to refill your wine glass and at both places, the server asked if they could refill your wine glass before they poured. Fri Apr 17 09:56:38 -0700 2009 4604424 19518 rockandroller1 2 4604587 My nephew has worked at a number of larger chains (Cheescake, Carraba's, PF Chang), and the term they use in training is "up-selling". Those of us who have never been been part of a waitstaff usually think that the server is just being friendly in letting us know about all of those wonderful items we may have missed on/off the menu. Not so. They are trained/required to do that -- not unlike those operators who take your call when you order something on TV ("and for only $9.99 more, we can send you that fur-lined frying pan and a set of dog booties......") Fri Apr 17 10:38:02 -0700 2009 4603833 90359 PattiCakes 3 4604686 I find that people of my mother's generation (60s+) are most bothered by upselling because it used to be that nobody offered you something extra and would then charge you for it, whereas younger generations are hip to the scam and either know it and accept it or ask how much extra it costs. I have gotten so paranoid about it when I go some place and order a baked potato and they say "butter and sour cream on that?" I ask if it's extra. It seems everything is extra anymore. Fri Apr 17 11:00:03 -0700 2009 4604587 19518 rockandroller1 4 4604849 I AM your mother's generation, and am wise to this now thanks to my nephew. It really opened my eyes when he described in detail how they were trained -- even down to holding the menu a certain way at the table (not unlike Vanna White), pointing out various items & delivering a set "schtick" . I am also very leary of asking the server "what would you recommend?" because now I know the staff meets every night before service & are told what to push, and are incented to do so. It's a snakepit out there in those chains. Probably not too much different in the indies as well, but regimented, corporate manipulation of the chains just fries my ass. Fri Apr 17 11:45:12 -0700 2009 4604686 90359 PattiCakes 5 4604912 You've got it patticakes, when asked for recommendations you push whatever the "featured" item is that we're trying to sell, or if they're new you suggest the items that are most popular or that the restaurant is "famous" for. Now that being said, if someone said they were trying to decide between X and Y and which one is better, most people give a completely honest answer; we really do not know the prices of everything down to the exact cent to where we would recommend the fish over the chicken just because it's 50 cents more, and even if we do know that one thing is more than another, most people don't recommend the more expensive one just because it's more expensive. Fri Apr 17 12:00:19 -0700 2009 4604849 19518 rockandroller1 6 4606039 And there is always the: push the fish, its going bad. Fri Apr 17 19:39:29 -0700 2009 4604912 11826 Phaedrus 5 4621758 Just one of the many reasons that my family and I almost NEVER eat at chain restaurants. Thu Apr 23 09:47:15 -0700 2009 4604849 63569 flourgirl 4 4604860 Not quite your mom's age but >50's crowd. Jfood is upset about it because eating out should not be a wallet-sparring event. And gladly jfood does not eat in chains. But if one of them there young whippersnappers wanted to reach into jfood's wallet then gosh darn it, jfood is gonna return the favor. Where does it end? Which items on this list are free and which are extras: ice ketchup butter sour cream mustard sugar sugar substitute refill on soda refill on ice tea refill on coffee whipped cream lemon First rule of physics is for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction. You try to scam this old dog, you better expect some scamming when the bill arrives. Fri Apr 17 11:48:53 -0700 2009 4604686 11290 jfood 5 4604901 I have in fact been charged for ice in South Beach. That is when I decided to like and learn to drink beer. Fri Apr 17 11:57:48 -0700 2009 4604860 124704 Icantread 6 4606581 Where were you charged for ice? Sat Apr 18 06:57:52 -0700 2009 4604901 41659 Wursthof 7 4611326 If you believe it, in Lucky Strike bowling alley. Order a rum and coke (which came with ice)- it's about $8. However, order a vodka on the rocks it's $12 (same as a scotch btw) + $2 for ice. I thought the bill came a little high, and when I looked at it, it broke it down: vodka - $12.00, ice $2.00!!!!! that's when we got up and left. Mon Apr 20 09:40:30 -0700 2009 4606581 124704 Icantread 8 4611494 Not condoning, necessarily, but in my experience there is a "rocks" or "up" upcharge, although I think $2 may be steep. This is to account for the fact that you're getting a heavier pour of the liquor for these beverages versus what you get in a mixed drink served in a standard highball glass. Mon Apr 20 10:17:10 -0700 2009 4611326 263586 LPhila 9 4614287 interesting, I have never seen it. What I have seen is a high price for the actual liquor charged, which is fine. $18 scotch? so be it, but that little $2 add for ice psychologically, makes for bad business. it's kind of like saying "hey, bend over" Tue Apr 21 07:38:07 -0700 2009 4611494 124704 Icantread 9 4617851 In Los Angeles, many of the better bars are contracting out their ice to a company that makes its cubes clear, hard and large, cubes that cool your drink perfectly without melting away and diluting it. Those cubes are perhaps worth the surcharge. Wed Apr 22 08:05:42 -0700 2009 4611494 10702 condiment 10 4618081 Agreed in general on the charge-for-ice idea... but condiment - this ice is intriguing to me! I didn't know there was anywhere else to go with ice, besides different shapes. Don't think I've seen it here in the Northeast, or if it's here, I haven't run across it. I don't tend to frequent the "better bars" in Philly so I could be mistaken :) More of a dive bar kind of girl... Wed Apr 22 09:01:33 -0700 2009 4617851 263586 LPhila 10 4621637 I've seen focus put on ice before. If in Japan they had charged me for the bartender grabbing a pillar of ice and carving a near perfect sphere that just fit in our glass to cool each of our whiskies with little to no melt, I would have paid cash along with a standing ovation. I agree with your specialty made cubes as well. Alas, these were mediocre, already melting when they hit the glass, icemachine ice. Thu Apr 23 09:20:06 -0700 2009 4617851 124704 Icantread 10 4624764 The ice cools the drink by melting. Heat is transferred from the liquid and in doing so changes the ice to water. A big piece of ice will dilute the same as many smaller pieces. A very large piece of ice will not dilute less unless it is kept at a much lower temperature than regular ice. Fri Apr 24 08:24:13 -0700 2009 4617851 28638 phantomdoc 11 4625073 in the case of the sphere, it is so large and minimizes surface area sufficiently that it melts very little before absorbing the heat from the drink and cooling it down. This is not to say you don't want some water in you whiskey. Fri Apr 24 09:55:23 -0700 2009 4624764 124704 Icantread 12 4625194 but isn't the issue is that melting, by and large, is exactly what cools the drink? The heat of fusion (that is the energy consumed by the melting process) is quite large. Fri Apr 24 10:21:33 -0700 2009 4625073 18353 DGresh 12 4625232 80 cal/gram when ice changes to water. Smaller surface only slows heat transfer. Cracked ice cools faster but does not dilute more. Fri Apr 24 10:29:44 -0700 2009 4625073 28638 phantomdoc 9 4635124 I need to 2nd the upcharge for rocks. I am a chef, but have been around the biz long enough to need to learn about this stuff. The same pour in a glass with ice looks much weaker then no ice. I am shocked they would allow it to show up on the bill that way, it should have read "vodka rocks $12" You are actually paying less per ounce on that $2 upcharge. Figure $6 to 10 an ounce for the original order, $2 more for an extra ounce Tue Apr 28 06:18:12 -0700 2009 4611494 168703 uwebres 8 4624696 LPhila is right. You weren't being chrged for the ice itself, you were being charged for the extra ounce or so of alcohol that is needed to fill the rocks glass. Fri Apr 24 08:03:03 -0700 2009 4611326 92744 invinotheresverde 9 4625090 That would make sense except what did the original $12 charge for vodka apply to? Even then, like I said, it just makes for bad business psychologically. You either have a preset rocks/neat charge or you start it from a baseline. When a vodka/cranberry or rum&coke costs $8 and the vodka's $12 +$2, I just cannot see it, except to say that the place is run by inconsiderate morons (which I maintain anyhow). Don't get me wrong, I would love a fair and rational explanation. Fri Apr 24 09:58:34 -0700 2009 4624696 124704 Icantread 10 4625249 WAS a vodka/cranberry $8? You only mentioned the rum being $8. Obviously, different types and brands of alcohol have different prices. The vodka you ordered may have been $12 to begin with, and then the $2 was added for the rocks pour. Fri Apr 24 10:34:56 -0700 2009 4625090 92744 invinotheresverde 5 4604923 I hate it just as much as you, but it's not the server's fault, they are following a script. I would much rather you not take it out on the server with your wallet, but take it out on the restaurant at large with your wallet, by contacting corporate and telling them you don't appreciate the practice and then dining elsewhere. I have worked places where pop refills are free but iced tea isn't. Now bread refills are being charged some places. It's not the server's fault. Fri Apr 17 12:03:35 -0700 2009 4604860 19518 rockandroller1 6 4605008 Good news it does not come up in jfood's life since he does not eat at chains. Fri Apr 17 12:37:37 -0700 2009 4604923 11290 jfood 7 4605025 yep. we don't either when we have the option, but pretty much ALL of our friends do and so we often end up at them, despite making other suggestions. Fri Apr 17 12:45:31 -0700 2009 4605008 19518 rockandroller1 8 4609192 rockandroller1, I've been reading you for years, and you are no shy bunny. You are smart and opinionated and passionate, and experienced in the food profession. I can understand your working in chains -- the scripts are there for a reason, and you might make more money, and there are reasons the other alternatives won't work for your livelihood. But during downtime with your friends? Hard to believe you can't get them to your local independent favorites. Sun Apr 19 12:50:03 -0700 2009 4605025 10855 nosh 9 4609433 It really depends on the friends. The people I know are usually way on one side or way on the other - either they're wal-mart shopping, chain-loving people who always want to go to appelbees or the equivalent, or they're more independent thinkers who (for example) go to farmer's markets, are interested in trying new/independent places, etc. I have friends on both sides of the fence but I the majority of people I know, work with, etc are "chain" people. I can tell you, forcing the "chain" people to go to indie places has not worked very well. Often, one person in the couple is so picky that they, for example, won't eat anything with onions. I took such a couple to a different mexican place than their usual chain place and the guy proceeded to dissect his meal down to almost nothing because of onions and they didn't like the chips because they weren't the overly salty kind you get at a chain place. These types of people IMO don't like foods and terms that they don't understand (what is a TERRINE? what is CHEVRE? Ew, it's GOAT cheese? why don't they just have a plain, regular cheese pizza?) and they don't WANT to try anything new. We went to a dinner last night at a small place that only serves dinner once a month (normally a breakfast only place) and we debated asking some people to go with us so that the restaurant would have the business, but before we made reservations we literally sat there going, well, we can't invite X and Y, he would never eat off a fixed menu, we can't invite A and B, they won't want to spend this much on dinner ($35 each), etc. We do get new places that the people on the "chain" side will go to and I'm able to draw them out to those places occasionally. For example, there's a new brewery/restaurant that opened that is known for huge portions, the name of the place indicates that the sandwiches are as big as your head, for example. I'm interested in going because they have some unusual dishes, make fresh cut chips and fries and have a couple of nods to local products on their menu, though the "big sandwiches" doesn't appeal to me. But I know I could get our "chain" friends to go there and they'd probably like it. But the place we went last night for the $35 prix fixe, no way. It's a coffee house during breakfast and they don't even have diet coke (no pop at all), that alone would cut out most of our "chain" friends, let alone any kind of liquor license. I've tried taking these friends to different places like independently owned stores or farmer's markets or art fairs and they oblige me once, but when it's their turn to choose it's back to Friday's or the mall. It's like they'll go to be agreeable, but when given the choice, it's always back to the "safe" choices they go to again and again. Sun Apr 19 14:41:08 -0700 2009 4609192 19518 rockandroller1 3 4604875 I guess I'm old fashioned but I would fully expect any extras to be clearly stated on the menu (I'm assuming this is diner / Friendlies type places) so it says "add a side salad 4.95" or "bacon on your baked potato 1.00". Otherwise I'd be furious to be "offered" these extras without explanation that it's gonna cost. Have to say the restaurants I frequent don't pull these kind of tricks. Fri Apr 17 11:52:29 -0700 2009 4604587 18353 DGresh 3 5177434 Yup, I worked in a steakhouse chain, and we were specifically trained to upsell using the "optional choice" method. "Would you like our house wine, or something off the list?", "Do you want the sauteed mushrooms or the daily vegetable?", "Would you like dessert, or our Spanish Coffee?". In some cases, like the wine or dessert, it was clear that it was extra, but on the mushroom/veg question, both were extra. And, while the management wasn't as extreme as rocknroller's, we were certainly judged by our average cheque per customer, and premium shifts were handed out to those did the best. But a fur-lined frying pan? Mmmm.. bacon with fur... Thu Nov 12 18:31:41 -0800 2009 4604587 1104506 FrankD 3 5178208 Up-selling or as it is sometimes called suggestive selling does not bother me unless it is pushy. If they suggest something and you say no thank you and then they keep asking you or trying to find new ways to go about trying to get you to buy more food, then it is annoying. Fri Nov 13 06:14:06 -0800 2009 4604587 235812 Sandwich_Sister 2 4606157 I HAAAAATE the clearing of the empty plates as soon as they're empty business. It's completely rude, and it brings out a rage in me that makes me want to stab the server/busboy/whoever is taking it right in their snatchy little hand with my fork. I'm a terribly slow eater and my husband wolfs his food down. There is nothing nice about me sitting there with a plate half full of food and nothing else on the table. Fri Apr 17 20:46:53 -0700 2009 4603833 11778 irishnyc 3 4624710 What's the difference between your husband's dish being cleared or sitting there empty? Fri Apr 24 08:06:24 -0700 2009 4606157 92744 invinotheresverde 4 4625092 One implies you should hurry up and finish, because everybody is waiting for their next dish. At least so I was taught. Fri Apr 24 09:59:33 -0700 2009 4624710 124704 Icantread 5 4625252 And empty plates don't signify the exact same thing? Fri Apr 24 10:35:35 -0700 2009 4625092 92744 invinotheresverde 6 4625804 go read the Malko thread -- it's a lot more fun. Fri Apr 24 13:20:59 -0700 2009 4625252 90359 PattiCakes 7 4625814 I'm LOVING the Malko thread! I was in tears from laughing so hard during lunch. I'm just not clever enough to contribute. I'll just enjoy from afar. ;-) Fri Apr 24 13:23:36 -0700 2009 4625804 10532 LindaWhit 8 4626063 Ooooh, whats the Malko thread? Fri Apr 24 14:51:26 -0700 2009 4625814 56762 LulusMom 9 4626112 http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/612551?tag=boards;topic-612551 Fri Apr 24 15:05:57 -0700 2009 4626063 36661 Sam Fujisaka 10 4627236 Thanks Sam! Sat Apr 25 03:44:23 -0700 2009 4626112 56762 LulusMom 6 4626738 Perhaps people should just bring some fake food along to the restaurant, put it on their plate when they've cleared the places just to not make the other person feel "uncomfortable". Hell, you can even build a business around that (fake fried chicken, salads, pasta, terrine of foie gras with cloudberry compote, or even replicas of Alinea dishes). Fri Apr 24 19:16:41 -0700 2009 4625252 10980 Blueicus 4 4627302 Just like at home the dishes should arrive and depart together. Jfood does not allow little jfood's dish to go to the sink and then she returns to the table. You stay with the family for dinner. It changes the mojo. Likewise when the server removes a dish it is a positive intrusion into the flow at the table. Noone really notices Tom finished his lamb chops, but as soon as the server pulls the plate two things have occured psychologically. The flow of the conversation has been interrupted by thye words used by the server "may I take that" so a new voices is entered into the fray. And more importantly there is positive intervention that others should focus on "catching up". This changes the flow as well. From the customer's point of view it is an intrusion, changes the flow and is a psychological, "c'mon let's hurry up." From the restaurant's POV it is a very subtle "c'mon let's hurry up." That's why jfood is totally opposed to removing dishes other than en masse. Sat Apr 25 05:21:57 -0700 2009 4624710 11290 jfood 5 4627426 jfood: as always, very well put. Sat Apr 25 06:44:02 -0700 2009 4627302 90359 PattiCakes 5 4627460 I don't know that in-home etiquette is necessarily the model for restaurant service. At home, we wait to clear the table until everyone is done because it involves the hosts getting up from the table to clear (sadly, our in-house serving staff had to be let go in the recent economic crunch. We were said to see Jeeves go). The same is not true of a restaurant. There are plenty of other things that happen at the table of our in-house dinners that I surely would not expect to see at a restaurant. This seems like one of those things for which there are differences of opinions among diners. Some people don't like to stare at a "done" plate and would like it cleared. Others think it rude to clear until everyone is finished. I think the bigger issue is the psychological warfare element you've identified - is the restaurant doing it b/c they think it improves the diner's experience, or b/c they want to turn the table faster? Perhaps hard to tell sometimes, but you often can get a feeling. www.foodforthoughtmiami.com Sat Apr 25 06:59:38 -0700 2009 4627302 35525 Frodnesor 6 4627621 You didn't need to get rid of your in house serving staff entirely, I know "Jessie" who would be happy to work for your family. Service details include crouching by your seats as she's reciting the contents of your meal, thoughtfully asking every member of your family of "they're done working on that" before clearing your plate, and addressing you in intimate terms such as "hon", "dear", and "sugar". For an extra fee she can even give you a wink and a slap on the butt. And no, I don't think emulating my family's serving habits at the dinner table would be a good idea for a restaurant. Sat Apr 25 08:26:15 -0700 2009 4627460 10980 Blueicus 5 4628571 Now THAT is the best ever explanation for NOT removing the plates as individuals have finished their dinners. jfood is wise beyond his years. And doggy jfood is very lucky to have him as his companion. :-) Sat Apr 25 17:06:35 -0700 2009 4627302 10532 LindaWhit 5 4631820 I disagree. The waiter needn't say anything before clearing if the diner has placed his silver in the "done" position, making the interruption minimal at most. Distraction-wise, it's the same as the waiter refilling your water or wine; a good one does it seamlessly and nonobtrusively. You should barely notice. I DO agree that if the diners are eating at pretty much the same pace, it's logical to clear them all at the same time. It's just less work. :) Sorry it took a couple days to reply. I was at the beach (crazy New England weather!) and the iPhone Chowhound app. is simply dreadful. Mon Apr 27 06:58:08 -0700 2009 4627302 92744 invinotheresverde 6 4631961 I But that is making the assumption that the people at the table are in the camp of clear separately, a MAJOR assumption. Jfood by habit places his utensils in the "i'm finished" position but does not want his dish removed. And if the server just reaches past the shoulder and grabs, that is totally unacceptable. Totally disagree with the water filling comment. Filling the water is psychologically extending the meal, not drawing one phase to a conclusion. It is actually the opposite effect. And jfood's head snapped back with the "It's just less work" comment. To that jfood would respond ...who cares. What's next easier to leave the water pitcher on the table and keep the utensils and sorry about the chip in the glass? Jfood is there to relax and enjoy a dinner and is placing $three digits on the table. Less work? Mon Apr 27 07:49:41 -0700 2009 4631820 11290 jfood 7 4632058 The "less work' comment was tongue in cheek, silly. I believe most people ARE in the camp of clear immediately. Maybe three or four times in a ten year, high end serving career have I had diners ask me not to clear until the entire table is finished. This is a food-related board, so the average diner here is not the average diner in a restaurant. Posters here may think about things like this (why, I don't know), but in reality, if people have minded being cleared separately, they've said so VERY few times (and I was a very friendly, approachable waiter). I just don't understand why some people have to hyperanalyze things like this. You're out for a meal, possibly with friends and loved ones. You're enjoying conversation, and (for most of us) the wine is flowing. You're done with your meal and have indicated so with your silver. Why is your focus on when the waiter nonobtrusively takes your plate? I mean, truly, why do you care? Why is it so rude? Why is it "totally unacceptable" for the waiter to take your FINISHED plate out of the way? Why would you even want to use the word "psychologically" in a sentence about dining out? Are there really not a trazillion other, better things to think about when you're dining out? As long as the server isn't loud and intrusive while clearing, why does it even bother you? Can't we all just relax and not sweat the small stuff? Are people THAT obsessive, controlling and fixated? I just don't get it. I mean, I understand that interrupting the table is rude and bothersome, but if the server simply takes the plate and goes on his merry way? "Oh, the waiter cleared seven out of eight of our plates, but Suzie is still eating. She must feel soooo rushed. We're soooo rude for eating more quickly than her." Maybe Suzie's the rude one for forcing everyone else to wait for HER. Mon Apr 27 08:18:47 -0700 2009 4631961 92744 invinotheresverde 8 4632082 "I believe most people ARE in the camp of clear immediately" I am firmly in the "clear my plate now" camp. That being said there are certain times when I am not. Those are the times I think my lovely wife may off load some of her dinner to me, and I am most likely going to get more (and not have to eat it with my wife's butter knife) if I have my dinner plate and silverware still in my possession. It's a gamble, but one I take, depending on certain parameters (size of wife's dinner, the further slowing of her already slow pace of eating, the efficacy of my "starving puppy" eyes look which I practice in front of the mirror in the mornings, etc.). ;-D> Mon Apr 27 08:28:22 -0700 2009 4632058 108169 Servorg 8 4632098 I, Not to worry about the tongue in cheek, internet never does a good job on that. Let jfood work on the other questions in a cogent manner on his flight Wednesday morning (meetings til 10 tonight and dinner/play tomorrow). 2.5 hours should have some down time for 20 minutes on his thoughts and since he learns so much from you from the House side, maybe he can shed some light from his POV. Ciao, BTW - boy was the weather good in the NE this weekend. Gotta buy some sun screen. Mon Apr 27 08:33:55 -0700 2009 4632058 11290 jfood 9 4632115 The real "problem" is that every diner (myself included) has their own point of view, and unfortunately they're usually quite contradictory. If you were to work based on the consensus of what everybody thought was good, or proper service your head would surely explode. Mon Apr 27 08:38:43 -0700 2009 4632098 10980 Blueicus 10 4632597 Correct, that could be said for 95% of the threads. The beauty of the discussion boards on the internet is they are filled with people of different POV. Jfood is an information junkie and many of the posters have very different POV's than his. He loves to hear and learn the other side. Jfood and Invino go back a ways with very different opinions and jfood loves these discussions, some of his favorites. Socratic method of teaching is still jfoo'd favorite. BTW - Invino, jfood tasted a great Brunello (sic) this weekend. It had a big "T" on the lable and he thinks a number as well. Any ideas? Mon Apr 27 10:29:15 -0700 2009 4632115 11290 jfood 8 4632773 I think maybe if you were usually the last person eating you'd understand how uncomfortable it can feel to be the only person at the table with a plate still in front of her (or him). And if, as you say, everyone is having fun, wine is flowing, etc. then the last person eating *isn't* forcing everyone to wait for her. Mon Apr 27 11:11:15 -0700 2009 4632058 56762 LulusMom 9 4632789 "And if, as you say, everyone is having fun, wine is flowing, etc. then the last person eating *isn't* forcing everyone to wait for her." Just because people are having a good time doesn't mean they're not waiting to move on to the next course. Those two things have zero to do with each other. P.S. I'm a verrrrrrrry slow eater. I'm always one of the last ones to finish. If everyone else is finishing up, I either pack my food to go or stop eating. By that point, the food is cool or even cold anyhow and I don't much care for cold food. Mon Apr 27 11:16:06 -0700 2009 4632773 92744 invinotheresverde 9 4633851 I usually eat half my dish and have the other half boxed up, so my dish is usually the last one on the table. It doesn't bother me at all. In my family, we clear our dishes when we are finished and if I am eating there, I am often the last finished. I think some people are just less self conscious than others in terms of how fast they eat. Do you not go out to eat in situations where not everyone will order the same course? In those cases, there will be people who don't have dishes in front of them. Mon Apr 27 16:12:09 -0700 2009 4632773 107671 queencru 10 4633993 True. I guess it is just that I was brought up thinking it was rude to have plates taken away, and I get hyper aware of the fact Im the only one with food in front of me if plates are cleared. I remember being out to eat with my husband's family once, and I'd (amazing!) finished before my mother in law but wouldnt' let them take my plate (everyone else at the table had). She looked at me and whispered "thank you!" and I got some brownie points - always nice. Mon Apr 27 16:55:18 -0700 2009 4633851 56762 LulusMom 11 4634085 interesting. deb and i rent an apartment in rome every march. when we dine out there, we usually spend two hours or more over a meal. it's slow going filled with conversation and tasty bites. plates are cleared at a leisurely pace and one course just naturally segues into another without fanfare. getting a check takes a little work but that's because, for the most part, we "own" the table for the night. i like that. state-side, things are different. i don't like a 60-minute meal. i make my thoughts known and there's seldom a problem. it's all good. Mon Apr 27 17:28:31 -0700 2009 4633993 10627 steve h. 7 4634791 If you put your utensils at 10 or 2, you are signalling that you do want your plate to be cleared. Of course, not one waiter in 10 knows that these days, but to those that still do, it would be practically a felony to pass by without picking up the plate. Mon Apr 27 23:15:10 -0700 2009 4631961 10702 condiment 8 4634913 C If you place your utnesils at the 10-4 position you are signalling you are finished with eating. 1 in 10 is probably 1 in 100. Tue Apr 28 03:43:11 -0700 2009 4634791 11290 jfood 9 4635057 and therefore it is no longer a relevant signal. Tue Apr 28 05:49:22 -0700 2009 4634913 135229 thew 10 4635073 It is a signal. Relevant? Not so much. But jfood still believes that the dishes arrive and depart en masse. When the ENTIRE table has the 10-4 then the dishes are removed, not as single units. But similar to speaking perfect Latin there are few who understand. Tue Apr 28 05:55:27 -0700 2009 4635057 11290 jfood 11 4635089 With larger groups (where lots of restaurants seem to routinely cram more people around seemingly smaller and smaller tables - or even with two tops these days - in order to maximize their "gross" potential) I am grateful when the wait person clears some of the empty plates away so I don't have to practically hunt for space to put my glass back down after taking a sip of my beverage of choice. Tue Apr 28 06:03:40 -0700 2009 4635073 108169 Servorg 12 4638171 Is this a US thing? In the UK I have NEVER been aware of plates being taken away except at the end of the meal when everything is taken at the same time. Wed Apr 29 04:57:41 -0700 2009 4635089 40746 Peg 13 4639319 Yes, very much a North American thing (I've seen the same in Canada as the US). Never had it done when eating in other parts of the world. Wed Apr 29 11:16:41 -0700 2009 4638171 56762 LulusMom 14 4639462 What about in Spain when you're having tapas? Granted, I know that in the States, there aren't a slew of tapas restaurants located within a several block area so you can go from one to another having a small drink and a single tapas....but do people ever stay at one tapas restaurant/bar in Spain and have several different tapas? Would they change the plates or serving dishes out then? Wed Apr 29 11:50:48 -0700 2009 4639319 10532 LindaWhit 15 4641452 If memory serves (and it has been 9 years since I was in Spain so this might be wrong) the tapas places waited until we handed the empty plates back or shoved them aside. I think they can easily pile up there, but I'm sure there are other people with more experience than me on this one. Thu Apr 30 02:14:49 -0700 2009 4639462 56762 LulusMom 16 4642253 OK, that makes sense, as that's what I do at the few Spanish restaurants I've been at here in the Boston area. It's not an automatic removal for each tapa (and I only do it when I've had a tapa with sauce of some kind that would then not "work" with the next one I'm getting). Thu Apr 30 09:12:47 -0700 2009 4641452 10532 LindaWhit 15 4647452 It depends on the type of place and the type of tapas. In some places in Spain we were given a plate and the tapas are out on the counter and it's serve yourself. In other places where dishes are made to order (and most places are a combination of both, where cold dishes are on the bar and warm dishes done to order) often the plate will be cleared as another dish is brought out. Here in Miami, at Sra. Martinez, a more upscale tapas place, most dishes are brought out for the table to share and cleared as finished, and individual plates and silverware are swapped out sometimes a few times a meal (I think this is unnecessary but still a nice touch). Fri May 01 21:58:47 -0700 2009 4639462 35525 Frodnesor 16 4647955 The plate and silverware swapping out is what I often get at Dali as well, and I do find it happens more often when at a table with a larger group who are sharing more items at once than when at the bar with just another friend where I tend to have just one dish at a time. Sat May 02 08:15:12 -0700 2009 4647452 10532 LindaWhit 14 4640038 in india they could clear your plates at any time - or not at all..... Wed Apr 29 14:23:41 -0700 2009 4639319 135229 thew 15 4640570 Throughout south and southeast Asia, servers would quite often not clear anything as the table got more and more crowded with plates and empty beer bottles (ahem, in my youth!). One would have to clear things to an adjacent table to send a message - not always received. Of course, most places we frequented had the useful practice of just placing an empty beer bottle crate next to the table. Wed Apr 29 17:02:03 -0700 2009 4640038 36661 Sam Fujisaka 2 4606837 i don't mind much, but I absolutely hate when a check is given before i ask for it. In my younger snarkier days, that was almost a guarantee i'd ask for a cup of tea or something small to add to the bill after. The restaurant might need turn over, but they need repeat business more, and hustling me out is not inviting me back. Sat Apr 18 09:25:01 -0700 2009 4603833 135229 thew 2 4606933 Rockandroller: thanks for reminding me why I avoid chains, another reason to love living in Portland where there are relatively few. Sat Apr 18 10:22:33 -0700 2009 4603833 13853 Leonardo 2 4610738 I'm a slow eater. When, as often happens, my husband finishes his meal before I do, we prefer to wait until we are both done before his plate is taken away (and this isn't even an issue with fine dining; it is understood). But in casual places he usually ends up having to stop the wait person from taking his plate away. Mon Apr 20 06:15:54 -0700 2009 4603833 56762 LulusMom 2 4612363 I had to retrain myself because I moved to the UK and it is customary over there to not clear a plate until after everyone has finished. Not that I am back here in the states I realise how rude it seems to be sitting there with an empty spot in front of me when someone else is still eating! Mon Apr 20 13:50:17 -0700 2009 4603833 174753 NellyNel 2 4622590 Yes, but this posting was from the diners' point of view NOT the restaurant staff's. So we probably have different views on service. Thu Apr 23 13:03:48 -0700 2009 4603833 76776 Elyssa 1 4604418 Most of those items do drive me insane. I was also a little perplexed by the wine comment. If I do not want more, I let them know. I would ask not to overfill the glass to move on to the next however. Additionally, I usually end up eating my wife's food when she's done. Do not take away everybody else's dishes until everybody's done. Sometimes this is done immediately (removing plates 3x for one course) and sometimes with a little lull. either way I find it rude. Fri Apr 17 09:45:52 -0700 2009 4603626 124704 Icantread 2 4605323 Oh, that is my biggest pet peeve. I refuse to allow my plate to be removed if others are still eating. Even if it is empty. If the server or busser asks if I am "done with that" I always tell them no. And if I'm the laggard I hate being the only one with a plate in front of me whilst finishing my dinner. Fri Apr 17 14:21:05 -0700 2009 4604418 139725 janniecooks 3 4622901 I've gotten into the habit of not-quite-finishing what's on my plate and nibbling once in a while until my companions are finished. This keeps the plate grabbers at bay. Thu Apr 23 14:12:26 -0700 2009 4605323 11995 pikawicca 4 4624309 That's a good tactic, will try to remember it next time! Fri Apr 24 05:24:10 -0700 2009 4622901 139725 janniecooks 4 4624668 heh - but then you open yourself up to the "are you still working on that?" line Fri Apr 24 07:54:30 -0700 2009 4622901 15747 djohnson22 2 4605418 jfood agrees that the plates should arrive and depart en masse. would you take individual plates away when serving at home? Fri Apr 17 14:48:22 -0700 2009 4604418 11290 jfood 3 4605730 Heck yes! The dog can only lick so many at once! Fri Apr 17 16:56:13 -0700 2009 4605418 90359 PattiCakes 2 4622625 If I don't want any more fine I put my hand over my glass or make eye contact with the server before he/she pours and let them know I've had enough. Thu Apr 23 13:11:46 -0700 2009 4604418 76776 Elyssa 1 4604432 "Are WE done with this?" "And how are WE liking everything tonight?" "Are WE having any dessert tonight?" WTF!! Where am I, the hospital? No, I'M not done with this, I don't know if YOU like everything tonight, nor do I care whether YOU are having dessert.... Fri Apr 17 09:49:17 -0700 2009 4603626 116513 linguafood 2 4604539 Ahhhh, the Royal "WE". I hate that. "WE" doesn't include the waitstaff! I thought two of the most pertinent comments were in the section relating to the online experience - have a reasonable facsimile of the menu online - EVEN if you change it every day. It gives potential diners an idea of what type of food the restaurant puts out. But even more important is something we've talked about here on CH: "The whole point of having a website is to disseminate your address, hours, contact information, and reservations policy. List ‘em. List ‘em prominently. Keep them current. Do not bury them behind a 30-second Flash introduction with music." I wouldn't be surprised if that was a Hound who made that suggestion. :-) Fri Apr 17 10:22:12 -0700 2009 4604432 10532 LindaWhit 1 4604626 Similarly, when the waitperson asks, "How is everything?" after you've barely had time to take two bites. Fri Apr 17 10:46:47 -0700 2009 4603626 12829 Bob W 2 4604688 I think "How is everything tasting" is worse. Food doesn't TASTE, it doesn't actually DO anything. Fri Apr 17 11:00:31 -0700 2009 4604626 19518 rockandroller1 3 4605724 Scarier, still, at Roy's in Hawaii, they ask "How are your flavors?" (!!) I wanted to say "why don't you bite me and give them a try?" adam Fri Apr 17 16:54:20 -0700 2009 4604688 154787 adamshoe 4 4606534 LOL! If someone asked me how my flavors were, I'd tell them to lick my arm and find out. But your response is even better. Sat Apr 18 06:09:20 -0700 2009 4605724 19518 rockandroller1 4 4607167 ROFLMAO! I need to remember that one! Sat Apr 18 12:21:02 -0700 2009 4605724 85738 libgirl2 4 4622656 LOL! I'm trying to remember if they said that at my visit to Roy's in Honolulu. I swear I would have remembered that (but I was also pretty jet lagged). What a weird saying! Thu Apr 23 13:16:20 -0700 2009 4605724 76776 Elyssa 3 4605817 rockandroller beat me to it - "How's everything tasting?" is ridiculous...IIRC, it spawned an entire thread here on CH some time in the last year or so, but for the life of me i can't find it, and i can usually dig up anything! but here are a couple of other threads devoted to the basic "how is everything?" issue... http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/413838 http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/588348 Fri Apr 17 17:44:03 -0700 2009 4604688 103920 goodhealthgourmet 2 4609258 Bob W, I've had that happen to me before I'd even taken a bite. Another thing I hate is the "are you still working on that?" question. I'm dining or eating or whatever, but it's not work. I've also had a waiter call me boss. I'm not his boss. I don't sign his paycheck. Sun Apr 19 13:13:59 -0700 2009 4604626 198541 James Cristinian 3 4609271 No, you just pay 75% of it '-D Sun Apr 19 13:22:48 -0700 2009 4609258 116513 linguafood 4 4616322 Not in this case, more like 70%. He got docked 5% for the familiarity, even somewhat of a condascending tone, that I just did not appreciate. Tue Apr 21 16:14:08 -0700 2009 4609271 198541 James Cristinian 3 4609977 I once had a waitress come up to the table and say, "Boy, you really inhaled that!" Stiff-ereeno. Sun Apr 19 18:32:42 -0700 2009 4609258 17348 Vladimir Estragon 4 4610047 I hate that! It is never OK for the waitron to comment on how fast or slow, or how much or how little I ate. I had one say to me "Wow you sure snarfed that down!" Sun Apr 19 19:05:20 -0700 2009 4609977 13853 Leonardo 5 4610511 Or ``You really hated that, I can see.'' Or the worst, ``You really did a great job,'' as if it were a professional obligation instead of dinner. Mon Apr 20 01:23:03 -0700 2009 4610047 10702 condiment 6 4610896 "You did a really great job"...yeah...what are you, my mother?! Mon Apr 20 07:25:02 -0700 2009 4610511 13853 Leonardo 6 4613083 A server who says, ``You really did a great job'' (or any of the above, obviously) isn't doing one. Mon Apr 20 17:27:53 -0700 2009 4610511 10074 Caitlin McGrath 4 4622794 Ya I hate that too. I've had people comment on my appetite as well. Rude, rude, rude! I was on a 2nd or 3rd date once and my waiter turned to my date and said "Wow this one can real pack them away, huh?!" or something along those lines. How embaressing! Thu Apr 23 13:43:13 -0700 2009 4609977 76776 Elyssa 1 4604709 Ok, here's my list: Servers that bring out the entrees before we've finished our soup/appetizers. I usually accept them, because otherwise they'd just sit in the kitchen getting cold, but it makes me feel rushed and uncomfortable. Little cups of salad dressing. I like a properly tossed salad. Dumping a little cup over the top is not the same. I particularly hate the little plastic cups with lids that have probably been sitting in the fridge for weeks. Utensils rolled up in the napkin. I realize that there are sanitation issues involved here, but anyplace where I'm paying $20 for an entree can afford to have someone set the table properly. Overattentive servers. Asking me how everything is is fine, once. Three or four times is an annoyance. Unrefilled drinks. I don't like having to spend half of my meal trying to catch the server's eye to get a refill. Partially unwrapped straws. Why do they wrap straws in paper? To keep them clean, right? I've actually seen staffers in restaurants take half the paper off of a whole box of straws and put them back in the box. That's it for now. I'll probably think of more later. Fri Apr 17 11:07:34 -0700 2009 4603626 17348 Vladimir Estragon 2 4607169 Recently, I got my salad at the same time as my food. And my food was cold! We were in the middle on nowhere at a quaint lodge and I let it go. Next night we drove about an hour away and had great service! And at same place, I finished my tea before my meal arrived and she didn't give me more hot water until I was almost finished. Breakfast service wasn't much better, most of us served our own coffee form the coffee stations. Sat Apr 18 12:22:42 -0700 2009 4604709 85738 libgirl2 2 4667363 As for the half-paper on the straws, I have seen places keep it on to manipulate them. With the tip of the straw covered, the waiter can just take it and put it in the drink without touching the straw, where the mouth would be... I'd rather the wait-staff touch the paper than the straw where my mouth will be. Fri May 08 16:30:16 -0700 2009 4604709 194657 alixium 3 4667612 That's right. I think the half-paper thing on the straw is great! What's not to like about it? Fri May 08 18:38:41 -0700 2009 4667363 13853 Leonardo 2 4668353 Outsized portions which are not listed as such on the menu. You have to go on the internet to find out whether a certain restaurnat serves outsized portions or main entrees. All restaurants should provide nutrition information. I live in West Des Moines, Iowa and there are way too many chain restaurants which provide little or no nutrition information, such as the local Cheesecake Factory, Cheddars, Cracker Barrel, Outback, Sbarro's and TGI Fridays. Sat May 09 07:17:11 -0700 2009 4604709 115014 Braniff 3 4668364 If big chains are barely providing nutritional information, do you really think indies and Mom and Pop type places are going to? It's A) super expensive and B) not very practical for things like nightly specials. Diners should use common sense. It's pretty obvious when things have a lot of sodium/fat/etc. Sat May 09 07:24:23 -0700 2009 4668353 92744 invinotheresverde 1 4605480 I'm annoyed by bathroom attendants who expect a $1 tip for handing me a paper towel that was within my reach. I understand that some disadvantaged persons are employed in that capacity, but I don't want to measure up a person's mental faculties in the toilet room between my soup and my entree. I prefer to choose my charities from my desk at home. Fri Apr 17 15:06:36 -0700 2009 4603626 57170 Veggo 2 4605926 Oh veggo, you're so right! Fri Apr 17 18:41:16 -0700 2009 4605480 105625 EWSflash 1 4605580 I am irritated by servers who bring me the bill and then disappear for fifteen minutes or more. I understand that you don't want to rush a patron on paying, but once he lays out the money on the folding plastic cover thing, you should come by fairly promptly and pick it up. (And I never close the folding plastic cover thing because then you don't know whether I've paid the bill or not! I understand. But please do come back from time to time and check.) Thanks! Fri Apr 17 15:42:57 -0700 2009 4603626 22427 gfr1111 2 4605689 Most people don't know how to properly use the plastic book to indicate they've paid. If paying with a credit card, there's usually a little plastic slot to stick it into the top so they can see it sticking out; if cash, leave the bill(s) slightly sticking out over the top. Leave it on the edge of the table where the server can see. A lot of people just put cash inside and close it up (I understand you don't do this) and then wonder why it takes awhile for the server to come back. You don't want to make someone feel rushed to pay by coming by and trying to retrieve it when they are not yet ready, so without the visual clues, you are left guessing. Fri Apr 17 16:33:10 -0700 2009 4605580 19518 rockandroller1 3 4609582 Thank you, thank you thank you! I wish they taught this in high school :) For that matter, there could be a whole "dining out" course... ha! Sun Apr 19 15:40:29 -0700 2009 4605689 263586 LPhila 1 4605895 1. When the servers won't speak "their" language with me if I speak it well. 2. When it is assumed that I don't really want to eat "their" food. 3. When the timing of the serving of the different plates / courses is out of synch. 4. When what should be hot foods are served cold & cold foods warm. 5. When the server doesn't know at ordering what is not available and comes back to say that your order is not available only when others at the table are being served. 6. When portion sizes or content are very different among those served (one person's dish has 25 shrimp the other's has three; one person gets the ass end of a skinny rat, the other the meaty foreparts of the cuy; you get a double chicken breast and I get a pair of necks [very ccommon in the developing countries]). 7. Over-salting. 8. Allowing cell phone usage among other diners. 9. Calling me "sir". Fri Apr 17 18:25:26 -0700 2009 4603626 36661 Sam Fujisaka 2 4605921 Sam, may I add #10? 10. Confirmation from the server that ANY trash fish caught that morning is grouper. Fri Apr 17 18:38:44 -0700 2009 4605895 57170 Veggo 2 4605939 Re. #1, I have a friend with whom I've lived abroad who this really burns. I operate under the assumption that the offending waiter is using the encounter with me as an opportunity to polish his/her English. Saves me the headache of worrying about their motives. On the other hand, if they are serving you the ass end of a skinny rat, you should definitely, definitely be worrying about their motives. Fri Apr 17 18:45:44 -0700 2009 4605895 186923 Cachetes 3 4605968 I only object when the conversation would be better and more efficient in "their" language than on one of mine. Fri Apr 17 19:01:46 -0700 2009 4605939 36661 Sam Fujisaka 2 4606044 OK, this happens more often in Chinese restaurants. When you are enjoying a number of dishes and the chef decides to clear the ticket and you get all dozen dishes at the same time. Fri Apr 17 19:42:28 -0700 2009 4605895 11826 Phaedrus 2 4622832 #8-There is a great restaurant in DC called Dino where it says on the menu "Any cell phones used in the dining room with be cooked in a pot" or something along those lines. :) Thu Apr 23 13:51:15 -0700 2009 4605895 76776 Elyssa 3 4624754 I love Dino! We eat there every time we visit from MA. (What an awesome wine list, right?) Fri Apr 24 08:20:29 -0700 2009 4622832 92744 invinotheresverde 1 4605988 a bad dining experience is sometimes hard to describe. like porn, you'll know it when you see it. Fri Apr 17 19:10:09 -0700 2009 4603626 10627 steve h. 1 4606470 The top thing I hate about some restaurants is undelicious food. Sat Apr 18 05:11:58 -0700 2009 4603626 10076 limster 1 4606529 The #1 thing I "hate" about some restaurants is that they apparently have nothing better to do than complain about their guests and create silly lists like "25 things we hate". Sat Apr 18 06:07:47 -0700 2009 4603626 253154 Fritter 1 4606685 That's why it's a good idea to keep a fork in one's hand- either hand, whether you're uing it or not, for defensive purposes, id you're in thqqt kind of restaurant.. Sat Apr 18 08:05:14 -0700 2009 4603626 105625 EWSflash 1 4609112 i wish they'd come up with a more discreet way of announcing "so is this all together or seperate?"...... it's lead to uncomfortable shift glances around the table many times while people wonder if someone else is catching their bill or if they're expected to pay for others etc. Why not just bring everyone's individual bills and let people hash it out at the till if they're sharing? Another one that's always stuck in my craw is when plates are taken away while you're still eating, especially with appetizers, and without asking. It's like someone else has decided for you that you've had enough. Sun Apr 19 12:06:45 -0700 2009 4603626 153184 im_nomad 2 4609554 I don't usually dine in groups (usually just with DH) but whenever I had I thought the assumption has been one check unless specified at the beginning. I've never been somewhere where it was asked at the end of the meal. That certainly does seem awkward (particularly if it's not obvious from the beginning that it was going to be split up equally). I've been at plenty of "work lunches" where there's one check and everyone throws money on the table. I'd figured that was "standard" Sun Apr 19 15:29:59 -0700 2009 4609112 18353 DGresh 3 4613326 I don't think it's that uncommon for the server to ask whether it's together or separate. I just visited friends in a college town and every server asked if we wanted the same bill or separate checks. Usually if I eat out with a group of my girlfriends, we get asked for separate checks too. It may really depend on the city, but most of the places I've been seem to assume you want separate checks if you don't look like a normal family group. Mon Apr 20 18:54:58 -0700 2009 4609554 107671 queencru 4 4624777 I've never had a waiter ask together/separate. How would you determine who would pay for any shared items, like the wine? When I waited tables, we'd always giggle at the ladies (usually it was women, what can I say?) who wanted separate checks. Their bills would end up being like $22.95, $21.50, $23.20, etc. If the tallies are all almost exactly the same, are separate checks really necessary? Is throwing in an extra 30 cents for a friend really a big deal? So bizarre. Fri Apr 24 08:29:54 -0700 2009 4613326 92744 invinotheresverde 5 4624994 Usually if I'm having dinner or another meal with a galpal, and it's just two of us, we both throw in our credit cards and ask the server to run half the check through each card. Splitting in half makes it easy on us, and hopefully easier on the server. No reason to worry about a couple dollars more or less on one or the other check, and no need for separate checks. Fri Apr 24 09:33:23 -0700 2009 4624777 139725 janniecooks 5 4625417 From what I've seen, it's extremely common in places that tend to have more of a lunch business or are in college towns where you can pretty much expect that few of the diners will be in family groups. Fri Apr 24 11:20:41 -0700 2009 4624777 107671 queencru 6 4633155 Yeah, the together/separate question is definitely common in college towns (or at least the ones I've lived in). On a few occasions I've it's actually been a small challenge to convince the waiter that we prefer one check. Mon Apr 27 13:01:08 -0700 2009 4625417 135311 mpjmph 5 5178625 I hate to condone the behavior of your ladies with equivalent check amounts... but for every person who troubles the waiter for a separate check, I guarantee you there's a person who's ordered way more than his dining companions -- and he'll say "why don't we just split it?" Fri Nov 13 08:33:37 -0800 2009 4624777 270888 shaogo 6 5178672 I dated a guy like that. He made much more than me, would order more than me, and then told me I had "money issues" when I refused to split it 50/50. If I know I'm going to be asked to split the check in half, I will order accordingly. In terms of splitting checks, I think many people just don't carry that much cash around these days and it's easier to split a check 3-4 ways than to have to worry about splitting all these $20s to get the right amount. Fri Nov 13 08:52:21 -0800 2009 5178625 107671 queencru 6 5178809 Of course there is. I'm just relating my experience with the ladies, since they're the ones I see frequently doing it. Fri Nov 13 09:25:30 -0800 2009 5178625 92744 invinotheresverde 1 4610550 One of my current peeves is two top tables that aren't large enough to hold the plates. If the restaurant wants to fit in more tables, that's fine by me. I just wish they wouldn't use plates the size of platters! Mon Apr 20 03:47:53 -0700 2009 4603626 77993 garlicvampire 1 4610976 Rinsing the wine glasses with the expensive wine I just bought. How about rinsing with your wine, not mine. Mon Apr 20 07:55:11 -0700 2009 4603626 28638 phantomdoc 1 4612209 A few irksome things about restaurants: 1. (Especially chains) over-salted food; salted so heavily my nose is running or I become flush. 2. Please don’t take my plate before I’m finished with my dinner. Because I have taken a hiatus by no means indicates that I am not going to forge ahead in a few minutes. I was trained (as a kid) to place your silverware on the plate as an indication that you are done. 3. Don’t constantly refill my glass. When it is empty, fill it. I’ll let you know if I want more or not. Again, I was trained to place two fingers on the rim of the glass to indicate “No more, thank you.” 4. Young wait staff who refer to my parents as “You guys”. 5. Wait staff reaching across the table to deposit/retrieve my plate. 6. Taking the bread plate so now there is no where to put my utensils except on the table (in no tablecloth restos of course). I don’t know how clean the table was to begin with... Mon Apr 20 13:15:05 -0700 2009 4603626 233294 cuccubear 2 4612321 Piggy backing on #3. I hate nothing more than having the molarity in iced teas or coffees screwed up by people refilling my glass, and then they take my initial no to mean : never come back bacause I don't want anymore. Mon Apr 20 13:39:35 -0700 2009 4612209 11826 Phaedrus 3 4614067 Molarity!? You must be a fellow chemist, Phaedrus. Tue Apr 21 06:20:44 -0700 2009 4612321 161386 kmcarr 4 4614700 Nope, just an engineer who remembers a little chemistry. Tue Apr 21 09:30:04 -0700 2009 4614067 11826 Phaedrus 3 4614298 ha! I had never thought of it that way. Btw, No mentions of servers dripping water on your food while refilling the glass?! Talk about upsetting Tue Apr 21 07:40:31 -0700 2009 4612321 124704 Icantread 1 4612245 When I tell the waiter I want it "Indian hot" or "pet pet", tell them I really mean it, that I inject habaneros directly into my bloodstream, and the food still comes out medium spicy. Mon Apr 20 13:22:57 -0700 2009 4603626 10814 sbp 2 4612481 Oh man, that is one of my serious pet peeves, too. In general, one has to return a few times to get that point across. I hate that it's simply assumed a Caucasian gal couldn't handle serious hotness (well, admittedly she couldn't up until her mid-20s....). I want to cry. I want my head to sweat. I want it HOT. Mon Apr 20 14:18:39 -0700 2009 4612245 116513 linguafood 3 4614475 One of my pet peeves as well. I know how to say "make it hot, I'm not kidding" in Thai. I was hoping for some serious heat when we went to Thailand a few years back, but they take one look at me and figure I can't handle it. The hottest dish there was in a small cafe in the domestic terminal of the Bangkok airport. I can't stand places that make you tell them on a 1-5 or 10 scale how hot you want it. I want it authentic, don't just make everything super hot if it's not supposed to be. I knew I was going to have a great meal at Lotus of Siam in Vegas when I gave my usual spiel to the waiter and he looked me directly in the eye and said "are you sure? ". Tue Apr 21 08:30:18 -0700 2009 4612481 11634 saeyedoc 1 4622569 I also HATE the "still working on that?" phrase. It just irritates me to know end. I also can't stand when they clear away one person's dish while another diner is still eating. It makes me feel rushed and as if everyone is staring at me eating. Wait until everyone is finished and then clear the plates together. Oh---and hard, cold butter. I like for it to be smooth, creamy, and slightly at room temp. Thu Apr 23 12:59:39 -0700 2009 4603626 76776 Elyssa 2 4622645 I think there was another long thread on CH awhile back on whether or not it's "rude" to leave dirty dishes sit in front of customers or whether it's rude to take one dish away at a time. There were hundreds of posts and absolutely no consensus on one side or the other. Some people cannot STAND the dirty dish left in front of them and will dock the tip for that as they think it's poor service, and others cannot stand the "feeling rushed" by clearing one plate at a time as people are done. I can tell you that in most chains, you are required to clear the dirties as they appear. If a manager sees 4 people at a table and 3 are done and sitting in front of dirty plates while 1 person is eating, you will get yelled at for not clearing the plates. Thu Apr 23 13:14:42 -0700 2009 4622569 19518 rockandroller1 3 4623231 I used to wait tables and one of the other waitresses always insisted that plates should be cleared away immediately because it was disgusting to have to have your own dirty plate in front of you. I just do not get this ... if it wasn't disgusting while you were eating it, why is it suddenly disgusting when you're done? Thu Apr 23 15:54:57 -0700 2009 4622645 56762 LulusMom 4 4623388 Like I said, some people fall on that side, some people fall on the other side. Probably depends on what you grew up with but people seem to be firmly in either side of the camp, so you just can't win. Thu Apr 23 16:52:23 -0700 2009 4623231 19518 rockandroller1 5 4623495 It is a divided camp. I wonder if you cannot split the difference? Chilis - off the table it goes once the customer is done. No asking if you are still working. THAT is annoying. Period. If you are at a fine dining place and the goal is partially to be invisible to the customer you wait until the table is settled - UNLESS there is one person who seems to have trouble getting the food from plate to mouth. That lady is usually me. I am usually yapping or listening and forget to eat. I feel uncomfortable sometimes when the cleaned plates sit before folks because of me. If the waiter waited a while and then cleared when it was obvious they had finished I would be thrilled. Offering up desserts, on the other hand would be over the line unless I said how about you all go on for a dessert in front of the waiter. Good service is SUCH an art form. I don't care what the naysayers argue. Thu Apr 23 17:26:34 -0700 2009 4623388 137755 Sal Vanilla 6 4624310 Maybe part of the answer is "how would you treat cherished guests in your own home?" Fri Apr 24 05:24:33 -0700 2009 4623495 90359 PattiCakes 7 4624558 I don't think so. Even in non-chain restaurants, they have standards for when and how you should do something like clear plates. Sometimes it's informal and up to the server (in independent places) but I've not worked in any restaurant, including non-chains, where if a manager observed the majority of a table sitting in front of dirty plates, you wouldn't get pulled aside to ask why the F you haven't cleared the dirties yet. Fri Apr 24 07:20:28 -0700 2009 4624310 19518 rockandroller1 7 4625429 I think it really depends on the family for that as well. In my family we clear our dishes when we are finished, while in others everyone finishes and then clears. People in my family simply do not like to look at their dirty plates when they have finished eating and none of us feel rushed because one person finishes before us. In other families, people would rather keep their plates until everyone is finished. Fri Apr 24 11:22:39 -0700 2009 4624310 107671 queencru 4 5177483 I know I'm way late on this thread, but geez... this is so simple if the DINERS know the rules. Cutlery placed side by side, at either 4 o'clock to 10 (or 8 to 2 if you're a lefty) means "Please clear my plate". Knife and fork crossed on the plate "Please don't take it". But, considering the number of diners I've seen hold their fork like a flagpole, jam it vertically into their steak, and then saw away like lumberjacks, talk with their mouths full, wave their knives and forks around like semaphore flags while they talk, etc., I despair of this simple solution ever happening. Thu Nov 12 18:55:13 -0800 2009 4623231 1104506 FrankD 5 5181683 I know, sometimes I feel like the people around us are cavemen. And I agree about the knife and fork placement, but there are plenty of people who don't know these rules. Just like there are servers who insist on taking away plates when some people at the table are still eating. Sat Nov 14 13:45:57 -0800 2009 5177483 56762 LulusMom 1 4645483 or you wait 15 minutes for someone to come over and take your order, while they are just standing there just talking with co workers. Fri May 01 09:35:32 -0700 2009 4603626 286920 jazzie 1 4667288 Worst: servers that drone on for half an hour with long winded descriptions of the food and specials, when it's obvious (especially if you are knowledgeable about food) that they have no idea what they're talking about. and that fake smile that says "Im going to go back in the kitchen and complain about you to the other staff" and LET ME FINISH MY DAMN FOOD, especially if I paid a lot of money for it. I like to eat, Im not here to be "seen" If you follow the above rules, and if you actually know what you are talking about and recommend a good dish or beer or wine (with sincerity) I will tip AT LEAST 25 percent. Fri May 08 16:02:12 -0700 2009 4603626 205412 silverbullet69 1 4670120 The server who is trained to act like your best friend usually kneeling at your table while trying to up sell you on the new boneless pizza wings and ibc root beer. Because they care ,and the restaurant bought all that fake historic stuff on the walls from some restaurant warehouse ,I like to to tell them about my story. A recent divorce because of a disabilitating heroin /crack addiction. Guess what? I get to read my ny post , eat my loaded skinless potato skin nachos with bacon bits (TM) ,my ribless BBQ ribs(TM) , and my fried talapia fingers (TM)with out being bothered. Sat May 09 22:52:05 -0700 2009 4603626 244517 mrporkbelly 1 4670166 The is an interesting topic but also a tricky one because you just can't please everyone. I'm pretty easy. Just don't be rude, and I won't mind eating at your restaurant. Unless it's overcrowded. Makes me feel like I should be at a bar. Sat May 09 23:57:37 -0700 2009 4603626 217880 mels88 1 4685874 I'd like to add to the list: * Rock hard butter because it is so cold * individually wrapped butter pats in better restaurants * Ice cold salad plates Fri May 15 04:09:38 -0700 2009 4603626 15231 synergy 2 4687628 I consider ice cold salad plates a plus. Keeps the salad fresh and crisp. Fri May 15 14:19:04 -0700 2009 4685874 28638 phantomdoc 3 4689278 I hear ya...to me, it means the lettuce has been sitting in the fridge way too long. Sat May 16 09:09:20 -0700 2009 4687628 15231 synergy 2 4688298 i agree with synergy.....ice cold anything is not good. Fri May 15 19:07:50 -0700 2009 4685874 153184 im_nomad 2 5178494 If I was in a high end restaurant and the salad plate was not very chilled that would be a negative on their part. Butter being rock hard is annoying but unfortunately more and more health departments are insisting that it stay refrigerated until served to the customer. Fri Nov 13 07:53:21 -0800 2009 4685874 131643 RetiredChef 1 5177101 Good list. I am particularly annoyed as well by "are you still working on that?" and by having plates cleared until it's obvious that everyone at our table is done or, if not, we've made it abundantly clear that we want the finished plates removed. Worst is having a waiter lean over and grab a plate while simultaneously saying "ya still working on that?", not even giving me a chance to answer. Other things I hate about restaurants: 1.Waiters who smell of smoke or perfume. 2. Restaurants that cram so many tables in to the room that we're sitting in each the laps of neighboring diners, next to the door, near the bathroom, etc. 3. When I ask for condiments like, say, vinegar (maybe even malt vinegar for fries) and the waiter acts like I just asked him to drive to another state and pay for it with his own money 4.Good restaurants that serve crappy coffee I have more but that's a start. Thu Nov 12 16:13:55 -0800 2009 4603626 248284 taos 1 5178481 Wow I missed this post when it went around the first time. Here is a list that I posted on a differant website that asked what was the worst thing a server could do. “My service expectations vary as to the quality of the dining establishment. These are all things that have happened in fine dining establishments ($50 pp and up type places). #8 Food auctioning (“who had the duck?”) #7 Complete lack of knowledge about menu items (“I am a vegetarian I don’t eat meat.”) I don’t care – you are a salesperson you should know your product. Not a “server” but the Sommelier #6 After ordering a $ 300 bottle of wine by name, a so-called sommelier replied with – “What number is that?” [NOTE: it was NOT a bin number – each wine had a number beside it like cheap Chinese food restaurants.] #5 Not refilling wine glasses, yes I know the bottle is on the table but I just paid 150 bucks for it – you want a tip for service, SERVE it. #4 Server sitting down at our table to take the order - don’t kneel on the floor either. #3 Timing of plates – appetizers arrived, 2 minutes later entrees arrived, and then the server realized that we had also ordered pre-entrée salads so they brought those also – true story, happened in one the most expensive and highly rated restaurants in the US. To the restaurants credit the manager immediately removed the salad and entrees and corrected the timing issues, when the entrees came they were fresh and just cooked not reheated. But the server was absolutely clueless and unless I had requested to speak to the manager the plates would have stayed there. #2 Not knowing how to fillet or carve something tableside (A whole sea bass was presented and the server started to hack away at it, my friend, a chef, who ordered it, stopped him and gave this poor soul a lesson on the dining room floor, he didn’t do it in a demeaning sort of way, but what this guy was doing to the sea bass was criminal.) And for the finale it came from a Maitre d’: (drum roll please) #1 After complaining about a spoiled piece of meat the Maitre d’ came over with knife and fork in hand, cut into the item and proceeded to eat it in front of us and then proclaim there is nothing wrong with it. I am not kidding – I have 3 other witnesses to this event. I heard later that this gentleman was let go several weeks after our run-in with him, due to a “high volume of guest complaints” – ya think.” Fri Nov 13 07:50:39 -0800 2009 4603626 131643 RetiredChef 2 5178575 don't know about #5. sometimes i feel they pour the wine TOO quickly, when i'd like to pace myself myself, or maybe its a wine that needs breathing Fri Nov 13 08:16:32 -0800 2009 5178481 135229 thew 3 5181367 I hate having the waitstaff pour the wine. They do it so often, even after taking 2 sips, to have you guzzle the wine so you order another bottle. Sat Nov 14 10:52:23 -0800 2009 5178575 15231 synergy 4 5181548 That’s improper service – a quick word to the sommelier should rectify that problem or ask him/her to personally attend to the pouring and refilling of the glasses. Sat Nov 14 12:37:24 -0800 2009 5181367 131643 RetiredChef 3 5181685 At some places with careful wine service, the sommelier would also be responsible for monitoring the status of the wine to see how well it has opened up upon decanting etc. Sat Nov 14 13:46:43 -0800 2009 5178575 10076 limster