609655 Sun Apr 05 09:13:26 -0700 2009 79 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 4554832 A nice Jewish girl has a serious question - why ham on Easter (or why do Christians eat pork anyway?) Jews and Muslims adhere to almost the same dietary laws and it is highly unlikely that Jesus ate pork/ham - really curious. Tue Mar 31 12:15:49 -0700 2009 15139 Diane in Bexley 1 4554962 In the United States, ham is a traditional Easter food. In the early days, meat was slaughtered in the fall. There was no refrigeration, and the fresh pork that wasn't consumed during the winter months before Lent was cured for spring. The curing process took a long time, and the first hams were ready around the time Easter rolled around. Thus, ham was a natural choice for the celebratory Easter dinner. http://homecooking.about.com/od/foodhistory/a/easterfoodhist.htm Tue Mar 31 12:49:30 -0700 2009 4554832 109905 laliz 1 4554972 Good question. I'm guessing it's because it's cheap and feeds a lot of people. Lamb makes more sense, but until recently it was very hard to come by in much of the US. Nowadays you can get chops or leg of lamb in any supermarket, but still not cheaply. Tue Mar 31 12:51:28 -0700 2009 4554832 106932 Agent Orange 2 4563475 Lamb is only slaughtered now, so that's why it makes sense to me. But ham is a lot more economical for large groups as you say. Besides lots of people don't like (or think they don't like) lamb. My mother has been making lamb every year for Easter since the 50s, and luckily we never had trouble getting whatever we wanted. Actually I know someone who buys one live and does it himself, with the help of his son. In that case, I wouldn't touch it, I'd be in tears. But I do love lamb if it's from the butcher. I'm making veal only because I just made lamb for St Patricks Day, but I am buying a leg at the supermarket anyway, because it's $1.88/lb, it'll be nice for Memorial Day I think. Fri Apr 03 01:46:22 -0700 2009 4554972 11097 coll 3 4569138 We get lamb from our Lamb farmer/rancher in Spring and Fall. Sun Apr 05 09:57:45 -0700 2009 4563475 164007 Bryn 4 4569396 Spring lamb is the best. Unfortunately it won't be ready until after Easter this year, according to my butcher. I love lamb and it is a good meat, ethically speaking, because it can't really be intensively farmed. Lambs need to graze. They also thrive in poor, hilly pasture, hence their popularity in Wales and in Greece. Folks who've lived in the US say lamb is much better this side of the pond (UK). Sun Apr 05 12:26:10 -0700 2009 4569138 110146 greedygirl 5 4569546 I'm from Alberta and I find local lamb is much better than the Auzzie and Kiwi lamb we can get in the Grocery stores here. It's a breed from South Africa our lamb guy breeds. Sun Apr 05 13:37:57 -0700 2009 4569396 164007 Bryn 6 4574256 Colorado lamb is the best I've ever had (and I love lamb, too). Tue Apr 07 05:53:00 -0700 2009 4569546 12622 Striver 3 4572576 ". Besides lots of people don't like (or think they don't like) lamb." Nah. I'm downright positive I don't like lamb. Mon Apr 06 13:57:14 -0700 2009 4563475 109905 laliz 4 4574889 With you there. I can't stand the smell of lamb, much less the taste. Tue Apr 07 09:04:26 -0700 2009 4572576 107671 queencru 2 4572540 Påskelam - "Easter lamb" is the traditional meal in Norway. Mon Apr 06 13:49:26 -0700 2009 4554972 120373 hangrygirl 1 4555021 Laliz has an excellent explanation for the historical reasons ham has become a traditional food for many Americans on Easter (as it is in Central Europe, as well). As for Christians and kashrut, short version is that St. Peter had a dream where God basically said "Eat whatever you want" and the apostles talked about it and were cool with it. More involved version: Christians have a different understanding of Jewish ritual law and believe that it was fulfilled ultimately by Christ. There were lots of things that the Jews of the Roman era did that Jesus did not. Tue Mar 31 13:04:20 -0700 2009 4554832 68363 JungMann 2 4562714 "and were cool with it" I love this...you are too funny! Thu Apr 02 17:40:51 -0700 2009 4555021 11854 LaLa 2 4567775 JungMann you also forgot that Jesus said that it is not what goes into a man that makes him clean/unclean but what comes out of his mouth. I think a lot of Christians consider that to be true Sat Apr 04 14:40:23 -0700 2009 4555021 280086 southernprincess 2 4574265 From a more skeptical pov, if you're going to try and convert Greco-Roman gentiles, you'd better not (a) tell them they've got to adhere to a whole roster of dietary restrictions and (b) tell the men they've got to be circumcised. :) Tue Apr 07 05:57:05 -0700 2009 4555021 12622 Striver 1 4563477 Ham is a Christmas thing in the UK. At Easter, lamb is traditional in most European countries, especially Greece, where Easter is the main festival and spit-roasted lamb the order of the day. I'll probably be doing lamb in some form. Haven't decided yet whether it will be rack of lamb a la Ottolenghi, or leg, or shoulder. Depends on the number of guests! Fri Apr 03 01:49:28 -0700 2009 4554832 110146 greedygirl 1 4569282 laliz has it right about the slaughter/curing/readiness issue. It was also helped along by a clever marketing campaign in the US here in the 30's. Lamb is still traditional on many tables, as well. In my parent's day, the family had a rotation: Thanksgiving Turkey, Christmas Turkey, New Year's Day Fresh Ham, Easter Baked Glazed Ham (the cured variety). In my siblings' control, the Christmas Turkey's been replaced by whole Beef Tenderloin, nobody much celebrates New Year's Day anymore, and if anyone does Easter, it's Lamb or Ham. Two of us love lamb, the other two can't stand it. Go figure. Sun Apr 05 11:23:29 -0700 2009 4554832 95137 mcsheridan 1 4569284 Ham is traditional in the South because pork is. The South was always rural and poor, and largely dependent on subsistence agriculture. Pigs are the gift from God that keeps on giving in large litters and the ability to fend for themselves. You can use every part of the pig but the oink. As the South recovered from the slash and burn of the Civil War and the devastation of Reconstruction, cattle ranching increased but the cultural patterns had long since taken root. Southern food is largely based on pork and that other self-sufficient creature, the chicken, which pecks around for its own daily fare, and gives back chicks, eggs, Sunday dinner, and feathers for pillows. I grew up in New Orleans but I don't remember eating lamb at a restaurant until I was an adult. You have to go up to Kentucky before you find mutton BBQ in the Appalachian areas. Lamb is now on restaurant and upscale tables, but it still isn't ordinary fare. There were also no ethnic groups that settled in the rural South that were from sheep herding cultures. Sheep farming is very scarce South of the Mason-Dixon. Probably as much geography, history, and culture as anything else. Sun Apr 05 11:25:28 -0700 2009 4554832 32444 MakingSense 1 4569383 For me it's lasagna!, Christians eat pork et al because jewish old testament laws ended on the cross. Shalom! Sun Apr 05 12:18:01 -0700 2009 4554832 149836 cstr 1 4569421 Thanksgiving: Turkey Christmas: Tamales New Years: whatever St. Patties:CB&C Easter: Ham This is how it was done when I was growing up. "And if ya don't like it, too damn bad!" That was a direct quote form my father, God rest his soul. Sun Apr 05 12:41:25 -0700 2009 4554832 140140 mrbigshotno.1 1 4569464 Bunnies were too small to feed the entire family :) Sun Apr 05 13:00:24 -0700 2009 4554832 89493 scubadoo97 2 4569491 How about rabbit with a mole sauce? Sun Apr 05 13:14:37 -0700 2009 4569464 32444 MakingSense 1 4569532 1. Christianity is the only the major religion with no forbidden foods (well, virtually none: the Apostles basically forbade the eating of meat or blood of animals sacrificed to idols, but the Great Compromise in early Christianity as recorded in the book of Acts of the Apostles was that Gentile converts were not obliged by the ceremonial and dietary laws of the Torah). 2. Pigs are big not merely in the American South but also the Iberian and Italian penisulas and central and Eastern Europe (and, lest I neglect it - hugely important in the cuisines China, and Latin America). Pigs are unique as midsize livestock that matures within a single season and are very efficient in terms of feed. And as a slaughtered animal, they offer delights from snout to tail. So they are the perfect domesticated meat source of the peasant. Lamb was not normally available at Easter (Easter falls anywhere from March 22 to April 25 in the Western Christian calendar - the first Sunday after the first full moon (not the astronomical full moon, but based on an ancient calculated formula, but I digress) after the vernal equinox; later in the Eastern Christian calendar - Western Christians follow an Easter dating that does not account for mid-4th century CE revisions to the Jewish calendar) in colder climate Christian lands. However, it is much more traditionally associated with the Easter feast in Christianity worldwide than pork. And, when I was growing up, we almost always had lamb for Easter. To me lamb is to Easter like turkey is to Thanksgiving. Sun Apr 05 13:30:54 -0700 2009 4554832 13819 Karl S 2 4570007 Lamb was associated with Christ. The Agnus Dei is sung or spoken at every Roman Catholic Mass. From Wiki: "Agnus Dei is a Latin term meaning Lamb of God, and was originally used to refer to Jesus Christ in his role of the perfect sacrificial offering that atones for the sins of humanity in Christian theology, harkening back to ancient Jewish Temple sacrifices." Sun Apr 05 17:36:00 -0700 2009 4569532 32444 MakingSense 3 4570031 The Latin and Greek words for what the English call Easter are Pascha - meaning Passover, just as Pentecost is the Greek cognate for Shavuot. The 50 days of Easter are traditionally a time of feasting and festive foods for Christians. Sun Apr 05 17:45:50 -0700 2009 4570007 13819 Karl S 2 4570207 eating food sacrificed to idols was left to the individual christian's conscience. one was not to eat something in front of a "weak" brother, however, that might cause him to falter in his faith (because of a misunderstanding of his actual liberty in such things). Sun Apr 05 18:55:46 -0700 2009 4569532 105717 alkapal 1 4570004 Pork was a commonly eaten meat in Europe before Christianity, and to encourage people to convert they probably left the "no pork" part out. Pigs were (and are) considered "dirty" in the middle east and south asia. Sun Apr 05 17:35:30 -0700 2009 4554832 227302 kirinraj 2 4570213 pigs are considered "dirty" in south asia? what am i going to make "pork badun" with? http://www.bigoven.com/38731-Sri-Lanka-Uru-Mus-Miris-Badun-(Devilled-Pork)-recipe.html Sun Apr 05 18:57:04 -0700 2009 4570004 105717 alkapal 3 4570573 oh...i meant more the hindu/muslim parts of south asia. In India, pork is not widely eaten, mostly in the tribal regions (Sikkim, Assam, Nagaland). Sri Lanka is Buddhist, mostly. Sun Apr 05 21:54:23 -0700 2009 4570213 227302 kirinraj 4 4570991 oh right. the muslims consider pork verboten, of course. and the hindus, GENERALLY, are vegetarians. many buddhists, too, are vegetarians. but pork is used also in thai and vietnamese cooking., burmese, indonesian, chinese, korean.... Mon Apr 06 05:55:50 -0700 2009 4570573 105717 alkapal 1 4570061 In my family, the traditional Easter food is chocolate! (and jelly beans, and peeps...) We never did a big ham or lamb dinner, usually more of a brunch deal - plenty of eggs, bagels, crepes. Then usually on to a Seder sometime that week :-) Sun Apr 05 17:56:04 -0700 2009 4554832 131105 Emmmily 1 4570921 As we always say in my family when deciding on the Easter menu: "It's the lamb of God, not the ham of God!" So we always have lamb. Also, we frequently invite guests of other religions, so we try to stay away from controversial foods! Mon Apr 06 04:57:48 -0700 2009 4554832 34558 roxlet 2 4571016 I read somewhere that the Ham at Easter tradtion actually orginated with the Romans. Apparently, some seacoast dwelling Romans had a tradtion of digging holes in the beaches (below the tide line) and burying pork legs in them for preservation (by the sea water) They would be dug up again in the spring, just in time for Lupercal, the Roman New Year Which was around April 1 (april fools day comes from when the the Papacy switched the date of the New Year to Jan 1, "April fools" were orginally those people who refused to go with the change as continues to celebrate the new year around April) Since one of the reasons (from a historical point of view) for the date of Easter was to cover the Roman Holiday (much as Chrismas covered Saturnalia) so that early Chistinans wouln't be tempted by the festivities) the cured pork tradtion was sort of added on to the Easter festivities. Mon Apr 06 06:05:54 -0700 2009 4570921 24492 jumpingmonk 3 4571053 easter is connected to the jewish passover period, which is determined by the jewish calendar. not to "cover" the roman holiday. Mon Apr 06 06:26:12 -0700 2009 4571016 105717 alkapal 3 4571111 The Lupercalia occurred in mid-February. The dating of Easter has absolutely nothing to do with Roman holidays. And, despite the very popular lore that the dating of Christmas arose as a holiday to be covered by the 3d century Roman festival of Sol Invictus, it more probably arose from the earlier notion that the Crucifixion likely occurred on the same day of the year as the conception of Jesus (which was a date in a fixed solar calendar that came to be associated with March 25 or April 6), which put the date of the Nativity 9 months later. Anyway, to keep this about food, that reported method of curing pork would have basically been a form of pickling, since the tides in the Mediterranean are not particularly variable. Mon Apr 06 06:50:27 -0700 2009 4571016 13819 Karl S 4 4571190 Back in my high school Latin class days, we were always told that Lupercalia was the precurser of Valentines Day (ancient fertility right --> holiday celebrating love). Whether that's actually true or not, I can't say. Funny how it all comes back to chocolate-centered holidays. Though come to think of it, most holidays in my family were chocolate-centered. Mon Apr 06 07:21:52 -0700 2009 4571111 131105 Emmmily 5 4571196 you can thank the conquistadors for that, of course, as there was no chocolate (or vanilla, chillies, potatoes, maize, et cet.) in the Old World until the 16th century. Mon Apr 06 07:23:49 -0700 2009 4571190 13819 Karl S 3 4574819 I am so glad you chimed in with this...Italian families on the Adriatic coast of the Abruzze still preserve/bury pork hocks in salt for New Years dinner for luck, based on ancient rules that pre-date Christianity. The customs of Christianity are so very often based on trade-offs that substituted pagan festivals with santized and sanctified rites. The lamb that is 'the lamb of God" has deeply pagan roots. Tue Apr 07 08:45:59 -0700 2009 4571016 24738 LJS 4 4574854 The pork for New Years is a cultural custom arising from the natural slaughter calendar, as pigs mature within a single season and are slaughtered at the end of the season in mid-autumn. The lamb of God, however, has more specifically Jewish than pagan roots (other than the fact that Jews in the Temple era still practiced animal sacrifice, as did pagans, but there were lots of differences in the sacrificial ethos). The major festivals of Christianity owe less to pagan roots than folklorists of the late 19th and early 20th century (whose influence obtains still on the Internet and elsewhere, but has undergone a lot of deconstruction by scholars in the past generation or two) had people think. Tue Apr 07 08:55:52 -0700 2009 4574819 13819 Karl S 5 4574895 You would have a wonderful conversation with my art history prof (a Jesuit)...he showed us some amazing pictures of cave art that illustrated the figure of a sheppard carrying a lamb...definitely pre-Judeao/Christian in his opinion. But then, you know those Jesuits...everything is a question to be debated except one. Tue Apr 07 09:06:58 -0700 2009 4574854 24738 LJS 6 4574946 The phrase 'lamb of God' only occurs in the NT at the start of John, the same gospel that starts with the more Greek-like concept of the 'logos' (word). Tue Apr 07 09:18:57 -0700 2009 4574895 12139 paulj 1 4571060 jews and muslims were primarily desert people. pigs do not sweat they wallow. pigs are thus bad to have in a desert environment because they soil very precious water holes and make them unpotable. christianity exported the monotheistic mythology to non desert regions, so the prohibition on pork no longer made sense. Mon Apr 06 06:31:07 -0700 2009 4554832 135229 thew 2 4571214 Yes! That is what my archaeology professor taught us, but this it the first time I've heard it outside that class. Anytime I try to explain the logic of pigs vs. cattle in the desert I get a lot of blank stares. As for ham on Easter, we have ham for every holiday in my family, plus birthdays and any other special occasion. I'm the youngest and therefore the recipient of all leftover food (even though I'm a full-fledged adult and have been shopping/cooking for myself for nearly a decade), so it's quite common to find a pound or two of spiral sliced ham in my freezer. Mon Apr 06 07:30:48 -0700 2009 4571060 135311 mpjmph 2 4572053 While that has some logic to it, that is unconnected to any of the actual reasons. Pork is far from the only food prohibited by Kashrut, and it is very clear, when the dietary laws are studied as a whole, that the reasons behind it are purely theological, not based on food safety or water preservation. Camels are an excellent and clean animal to raise for meat in the desert, and yet they are also forbidden by Kashrut. Also, the Middle East is not one giant dessert. The Ancient Israelites were not a nomadic desert people like the Ancient Arabs. They inhabited primarily the non-desert regions of their kingdoms, and lived in close proximity to many other peoples who ate pork without any issue. The reason the early Christian church did not force its adherent to follow Kashrut is that they determined Kashrut to have been intended for the Jewish people. The early Christians who came from the Jewish people did still have to follow Kashrut (and be circumcized, et cetera). Mon Apr 06 11:11:34 -0700 2009 4571060 36408 danieljdwyer 3 4572117 "actual reasons" is a funny phrase. mythology is often formed to codify behaviors, but that explanation post-dates the behaviors, rather than predates them. Say a society wants to ban pork, eg, for reasons like the one outlined above, it formulates a set of religious laws to back it up. The reasoning behind the religious laws may or may not reflect the actual reasoning behind the prohibition, which might have been in place generations before the law was codified. The laws of kshrut, in particular, generalize from specific cases, to make a broad protection. there is a reason why cloven hooved animals are considered trayf. most likely it stems from the porcine prohibition. it got generalized to include other animals, including camels, even if those animals do not require prohibition. the milk/meat prohibition was originally just not eating a kid in the milk of its mother. to avoid the possibility that was extended to all milk and meat. hell it was even extended to chicken, which doesn;t even give milk. (some scholars think one of the schisms in judaism that led to christianity was on just this point - in the gallilee they wanted chicken and milk together. a very chowish choice) the point is that theological choices generally enforce cultural prohibitions, they do not create them, and they are justifications that may have nothing to do with the actual reasoning behind not eating something. Think about it, why else should pork be banned? there are plenty of cultures in the world that survive quite well with pork as a mainstay in the diet. why is it that the only cultures to prohibit it are desert people? Mon Apr 06 11:47:08 -0700 2009 4572053 135229 thew 4 4572312 To start with, it's silly to conflate the terms "religion" and "mythology". They have very different meanings, and understanding the difference is very important to understanding anything about either of them. The difference has nothing to do with whether or not either one has any truth to it. Ancient Roman Religion and Roman myth come from the same time period, but are by no means the same thing Now, back to pork, there was absolutely no practical reason to ban the eating of pork, therefore it is illogical to assume that any society would have sought to ban it. The ban on pork is drawn from the second creation myth in Genesis, that is, the Eden narrative. The expanded version of this story predates the existence of any identifiably Jewish culture, and is very likely proto-Semitic. Since the Ancient Israelites are not a desert people, and it is generally accepted that the ban on pork in Islam is a belief borrowed from Judaism, it's not reasonable to claim that the only cultures that prohibit it are desert people. The only cultures to prohibit it are united in only one respect: having a belief system that stems from the early teachings which eventually were compiled as the Torah. Several Jewish groups in Africa, who never lived in deserts and who have been isolated from Israeli Jews since prior to the establishment of the ancient Kingdom of Israel, also don't eat pork. Religion does a lot of things that are purely theological, and have absolutely nothing to do with enforcing cultural prohibitions. I'm not sure why people find it necessary to link this one particular facet of Jewish belief to some practical implication. It doesn't even take religion for people to shun foods based on deeply held beliefs. Your average American thinks insects are dirty or gross, and therefore will not eat them. Absolutely no religion or government trying to control people involved. Mon Apr 06 12:45:59 -0700 2009 4572117 36408 danieljdwyer 5 4572798 W/out getting into my bona fides, i know the difference between mythology and religion, and if i mention one that is exactly what i mean, and i am not conflating it w/ the other. likewise i said nothing about controlling people. Mon Apr 06 15:30:21 -0700 2009 4572312 135229 thew 5 4572837 the ban on pork post-dates the eden "narrative" by a vast period, as do other "kosher" rules. abraham, the father of judaism, was not "kosher" when he entertained the angels; he served meat and dairy in the same meal. Mon Apr 06 15:40:31 -0700 2009 4572312 105717 alkapal 4 4572316 Of course, Karaite (and Ethiopian) Jews don't follow the rabbinical overlay, so they can have dairy with poultry. There is some speculation that the forbidding of pork arose among ancient Egyptians from the taboo against cannibalism - people reportedly taste most like pork, and the Nile River was an artery that connected deep into areas where cannibalism might still have been practiced in early recorded historical times. Also, North Africa was not as desert in the pre-Christian era as it is now - the Sahara expanded much farther towards the Mediterranean during the early Christian era. Mon Apr 06 12:47:01 -0700 2009 4572117 13819 Karl S 5 4572333 Norman Mailer did a great description of how pork tastes in his novel on ancient Egypt, it went on for pages and pages. Mon Apr 06 12:49:42 -0700 2009 4572316 11097 coll 5 4574222 I always heard that the egyptian "no pork" argument arose because at some point in egyptian history, a powerful regioes sect based around the God Set arose and threatenend the estabished priesthoods of Osiris and Amun. This sect cosidered the hippopotamus meat sacred and regulary consumed it as part of their rituals. This later chaged into pork as the pig was also identified with Set (and likey becuse it's a lot easier to kill a bunch of pigs for a sacred feast that spear a group of hippoptamai which with egyptian hunting tech was very dangerous.) When the estabished preisthood finally supressed this sect its sacred meat was banned excep during an annual feast held on a night of the full moon (since hippos were associated with the moon as well). The Jewish people are beived to have adopted this tradtion during thier time in egypt (in fact some early Jewish sects even retained the secret full moon pork feasts) at least that's what I was told Tue Apr 07 05:30:37 -0700 2009 4572316 24492 jumpingmonk 4 4574835 I thought the prohibition against pork came from the necessity to cook it well to avoide trichinosis that was at odds with a nomadic lifestyle. Thus the religious dietary laws of the Jews and Muslims were simply precautionary wisdom codified. Tue Apr 07 08:51:02 -0700 2009 4572117 24738 LJS 5 4574876 That's a modern day rationalization. Tue Apr 07 09:01:20 -0700 2009 4574835 12139 paulj 3 4572741 >>>The early Christians who came from the Jewish people did still have to follow Kashrut (and be circumcized, et cetera).<<< at the risk of being deleted (oh! never!) i must say this is not true, according to Acts. it was a dispute, but was not an imperative. in fact, that position (that all new believers, jew or gentile, should be circumcised and adhere to traditional jewish dietary laws) was specifically repudiated by the disciples. Mon Apr 06 15:17:17 -0700 2009 4572053 105717 alkapal 4 4573725 While the Acts account makes it sound as though the issue was settled once and for all, there is evidence in polemic writings against 'heresies' that there were Christian groups that continued to adhere to Jewish ways. There were also groups (e.g. Marcion) who rejected the OT entirely, arguing that its god was totally different. The orthodoxy that prevailed tried, in a sense to have it both ways - claiming a heritage from the ancient Jewish religion, while rejecting most of its rules. That tension between keeping and rejecting continues in one way and another to this day. Note that one of the prohibitions that was retained in the Jerusalem ruling was against eating blood. East Orthodox (Greek, Syrian etc) retain that prohibition; western Roman Catholicism did not. So there are blood puddings in Italy, but not in Greece. The Orthodox also developed (and have kept) a more elaborate system of fasting rules (such as the Lenten no-meat, no dairy), which have influenced their cuisine. It is easy for Americans (especially Protestants) to forget how closely linked religion and food can be. Mon Apr 06 20:47:42 -0700 2009 4572741 12139 paulj 4 4574540 Perhaps stating so simply as I did that, "The early Christians who came from the Jewish people did still have to follow Kashrut (and be circumcized, et cetera)," is misleading. It was never, and still is not, a settled issue, and it was never so simple. But, several Christian particular churches which claim both Apostolic Succession and Jewish heritage, mostly from the Antiochian and Non-Chalcedonian traditions, have always kept up adherence to Jewish dietary law. For instance, Bob Marley, as a convert from Rasta to the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, followed dietary restrictions very similar to Kashrut later in his life. As to your other response that the ban on pork post-dates the Eden Narrative, you are absolutely correct. The most commonly accepted theory among the rabbinical community and in academia is that the eventual ban drew from the Eden Narrative. Basically, there were no pigs in the Garden of Eden, rather, all the beasts of the earth in Eden were cloven hooved ruminants (and the beasts of the sea had fins and scales, et cetera). Things like rabbits and whales and hawks existed only in the fallen world, and the righteous man would therefore not eat these. Tue Apr 07 07:33:53 -0700 2009 4572741 36408 danieljdwyer 5 4574605 Speaking of rabbit: when a casual Italian-American friend of mine was a young girl, her grandmother let her pet a rabbit on nana's lap on Easter morning. When dinnertime came, nana explained the rabbit was part of the festa.... Tue Apr 07 07:52:10 -0700 2009 4574540 13819 Karl S 6 4574850 We lived in Puglia (southern Italy) for a while. On Easter morning (and remember we hadn't eaten meat for the entire 40 days of Lent so this was a big deal), we went to visit the rabbits and chickens that were about to give up their lives for our festa. While I think we stopped short of bidding them good-bye by name, we did say a blessing at the pen. Then the women and children went off to mass while the men stayed behind to slaughter. Tue Apr 07 08:55:12 -0700 2009 4574605 24738 LJS 1 4575717 Why do Christians eat pork? Because it's deliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiicious. Tue Apr 07 12:15:45 -0700 2009 4554832 116495 Avalondaughter 2 4577984 Amen. Wed Apr 08 08:02:48 -0700 2009 4575717 131105 Emmmily 2 4580612 And that, my friends, is the short of it. It really is that simple. Thu Apr 09 04:56:51 -0700 2009 4575717 71241 lynnlato 1 4579583 Here's a link to a recent AP article on ham: http://www.mercurynews.com/recipes/ci_12090911 Relevant excerpt: "An Easter ham is a tradition that dates to pre-Christian Europe, when the pig was considered a symbol of luck. But the Easter ham as we know it is more a creation of American marketing than a throwback to the old country. During the 1930s, Chicago meatpackers launched a campaign promoting hams as an Easter dish. And thus was born the precooked ham industry, allowing Americans to heat, glaze and serve. " Wed Apr 08 16:32:12 -0700 2009 4554832 10832 Humbucker 1 4580166 Because lamb is hideously expensive and a lot of people don't like it anyway... I'm more puzzled as to why the supermarkets have dragged out the turkeys for the holiday - I've never heard of an 'Easter Turkey'... Wed Apr 08 20:26:06 -0700 2009 4554832 67657 Kajikit 2 4580225 We always have one. Our Family loves lamb, but the family we share our holidays with hates it. Thus Easter turkey was born from the rubble. Wed Apr 08 20:50:25 -0700 2009 4580166 164007 Bryn 2 4580551 I would guess the turkeys are making an appearance as they are the least expensive meat right now, which may be an important factor to a lot of families. Thu Apr 09 02:50:33 -0700 2009 4580166 11097 coll 3 4580644 Turkey tends to be the go-to meat at our family gatherings, because it something we can all agree on. Not everyone in the family likes lamb, beef or ham, but we all like turkey. We are, however, having a small ham this year as well. Thu Apr 09 05:28:31 -0700 2009 4580551 139219 Sooeygun 1 4580363 Another thought. There never was a widespread tradition of sheepherding in the US. Only a few States have ethnic groups that raised sheep for wool or meat. What really killed any hope of Americans adopting lamb was the serving of mutton to American GIs during WWII. Let the military mess halls cook up some elderly sheep meat and serve it in chowhalls and how many guys are ever going to eat that stuff again? They had to slather it with sweet neon green mint jelly to get it down. Not a favorite meal. WWII was the first time that most Americans were exposed to foods other than their own regional cooking. That bad experience with mutton sealed its fate, and they were happy to go back to what they considered their own celebration meals. Ix-nay on the sheep-meat. Wed Apr 08 22:16:33 -0700 2009 4554832 32444 MakingSense 2 4580545 I always find it interesting when people view mutton as a negative. Mutton chops and kidneys with bacon were on the first class breakfast menu for the Titanic. It's not that baaaaaaad. Our Easter leg o lamb is marinating now. My uncles who were all in WWII would not get near lamb of any sort. The flip side of that coin is that they treated Spam and canned corned beef like the nectar of the Gods. Thu Apr 09 02:35:39 -0700 2009 4580363 253154 Fritter 3 4582132 Alternatively, my grandfather refused eat spam and did not ingest a single grain of rice for the rest of his life b/c he ate so much of both during WWII. Thu Apr 09 13:15:04 -0700 2009 4580545 135311 mpjmph 2 4580556 My mother grew in up NYC in the 30s and 40s, and says everyone she knew (all Irish though) had lamb for Easter. Now that she's an hour or so upstate, she says no one has it, and she has to seek out a farmer that will sell her some. Since she loves being different, she does just that every Easter, probably hoping to convert others along the way. When I told her I was having veal, she asked WHY I wasn't having lamb! Thu Apr 09 02:54:23 -0700 2009 4580363 11097 coll 2 4582519 I can still remember my father disparaging mutton. He was on a ship in the Pacific during WWII and he did not have enough bad things to say. We never had lamb or sheep of any type. When I grew up and tried lamb chops, roast leg of lamb, etc. uh, I really am Daddy's girl. No thanks. Thu Apr 09 15:11:02 -0700 2009 4580363 109905 laliz 1 4580422 On cool-season holidays, it’s an American tradition to gather around the dinner table and have some large hunka protein to mark the occasion, On Thanksficing it’s turkey; on Christmas, for many it’s a standing rib roast. For Easter, that leaves ham. In the U.S., meat is not generally considered a religious food (except for worshippers of The Church of the Most Highly Revered BBQ Ribs, such as me). People eat it because they like It. Wed Apr 08 23:04:54 -0700 2009 4554832 55316 mpalmer6c 2 4580490 yep, yep... we were a turkey/roast/ham family, and so were most of the people I grew up around. there was an immigrant family (armenian i think) and they had lamb sometimes. my dad was one of those WWII vets who wont even get near a table with lamb on it, let alone eat the stuff. so sad.... Thu Apr 09 00:34:39 -0700 2009 4580422 57890 KaimukiMan 1 4582035 Those of the Greek Orthodox persuasion will always have lamb. The whole idea of Easter is about rebrth or ressurection, which ties in very nicely with Spring as a metaphore. Greeks will have butter molds in the shape of a lamb on their tables; the Easter "grass" in our Easter baskets is a reference to the Spring grass. Eggs are key as well, with eggs being a symbol of new life. Hard boiled eggs are baked into breads, red-dyed eggs are exchanged. A common "game" is for each person to have a hard boiled egg that they hold upright wrapped in their palm, and tap/strike on top of another person's similarly held egg. The un-cracked egg "wins". I am always intrigued with the similarities and paralells between different religions. The Christian Holy Communion stems from a Passover meal. Thu Apr 09 12:44:50 -0700 2009 4554832 90359 PattiCakes 2 4582129 And, for people with Greek and Latin languages, what is called Easter in English is a "Passover" (Pascha and its derivatives in those languages) feast. Thu Apr 09 13:14:03 -0700 2009 4582035 13819 Karl S 3 4582158 Yet the date for Pascha is carefully chosen not to coincide with Passover (though the Wiki article claims this is more a consequence of the other calculation details than intentional). Thu Apr 09 13:20:12 -0700 2009 4582129 12139 paulj 4 4582211 I could provide an explanation, but it would be beyond even the scope of this topic. There's a lot at play with that detail. Thu Apr 09 13:37:18 -0700 2009 4582158 13819 Karl S 2 4582136 20th in the Top ten signs you might be Russian Orthodox: • Your Easter isn’t Easter without an all-night party (featuring vodka and 10 dishes of sausage with cheese). http://www.angelfire.com/pa3/OldWorldBasic/Top_Ten_Signs_You_Might_Be_Russian_Orthodox.htm Thu Apr 09 13:16:04 -0700 2009 4582035 12139 paulj 3 4582155 You need all three after the abstinence from meat, eggs, dairy, fish, oil and wine for 7 weeks....(and we Roman Catholics whine about 2 partial fast days and 7 days of mild abstinence from meatflesh only during our Lent!) Thu Apr 09 13:19:48 -0700 2009 4582136 13819 Karl S 3 4582218 The Joy of Sects...hee hee...loved it :-) Thu Apr 09 13:41:23 -0700 2009 4582136 251167 billieboy