603853 Sat Mar 14 21:39:00 -0700 2009 33 31 Home Cooking 0 4505859 I used the Baking Illustrated recipe. 4 tbs unsalted butter, 3/4 cup flour, 1/2 teaspoon salt, 6 eggs, 1 cup sugar, 1/4 cup cocoa, 1 tsp. vanilla I did everything according to the book, and I was supposed to be able to cut a 9" round into three layers. I used a 10" pan, but honestly, I couldn't cut that into two layers. The cake squeaked against my teeth!!!! It was awful. Alright flavour, but really disappointing. I've never baked a genoise before, and so I'm sure I'm doing something wrong. Anyone have a fail-proof recipe or a similar experience they've been able to decipher?? Sat Mar 14 21:39:01 -0700 2009 19782 Full tummy 1 4506036 Since you did not give the instructions, I assume they are: melt the butter sift together the flour, salt and cocoa combine the eggs and sugar and warm to about 100 degrees whip the egg/sugar mixture until it is light, thick and ribonny, about 5 minutes beat in the vanilla fold the flour mixture into the egg mixture fold in the melted butter Pour in a prepare pan and bake immediately Since the ingredients in your recipe seem ok, the problem with your genoise might be dued to: 1) the eggs/sugar not warmed before beating 2) the egg/sugar mixture not whipped enough 3) over folding the flour mixture and/or butter into the beaten eggs, thereby deflating the batter I think number 3 is the most lightly problem with your genoise being flat. Sun Mar 15 00:10:17 -0700 2009 4505859 10756 PBSF 2 4506144 and pan size matters too - cooking a cake intended for a 9-inch pan in a 10-inch pan instead definitely affects the height of the finished cake. Sun Mar 15 04:27:58 -0700 2009 4506036 139725 janniecooks 3 4506207 Yes, pan size matters A LOT! The volume of a 9X2-inch pan is 8-2/3 cups; the volume of a 10X2-inch pan is 10-3/4 cups. That's a 20% difference. When using a larger pan, you need to increase ingredients proportionately. Sun Mar 15 05:58:49 -0700 2009 4506144 11407 JoanN 4 4506515 The cake should still rise in the larger pan. Genoise is the classic base for rolled cakes, baked in sheet pans. The OP seems to have taken that into account. The part about 'squeaking' indicates that it was too dense. Since the genoise does not have baking powder, the amount of air that you incorporate into the eggs is critical. 5 minutes of whipping might not be enough. Could you describe the eggs when you finished whipping them. There are other foam cakes that are not as tricky. Some whip the whites and yolks separately; some get help from baking powder. Sun Mar 15 08:43:24 -0700 2009 4506207 12139 paulj 5 4506561 Sure it should rise. But it just can't possibly rise to the height it would have if the correct pan size had been used. That might not have been a problem if the OP hadn't planned to cut the single layer into thirds. I totally agree that something else was going on here for the texture to have been so off, but if the OP is going to try it again in the same pan, I would strongly recommend increasing the amount of ingredients proportionately. Sun Mar 15 09:03:35 -0700 2009 4506515 11407 JoanN 6 4507561 The truth is that the cake didn't rise at all, and I suspect it had to do with using the KitchenAid to mix the flour into the eggs. Baking Illustrated said to keep the mixer at the lowest speed while adding the flour mixture slowly. I switched to the paddle attachment (from the whisk), at this point, because I thought that would be appropriate--of course, I've never made a genoise before, so perhaps this was my mistake. I think the eggs were looking good up until the addition of the flour mixture. However, with everything I've read, perhaps I shouldn't have been using the mixer at all, at this point, and should just have folded things in by hand. Truly, the cake didn't rise at all. At all!!!! I had no problem with the fact that there would be a height difference by using a 10" pan, instead of a 9" pan. But, that did not explain the flat as a pancake, rubbery disc. Lesson learned. And, thanks, everybody, for your feedback. I think this is one of those things that you need to do over and over till you figure out what to do, how things should look, etc. Sun Mar 15 16:14:42 -0700 2009 4506561 19782 Full tummy 4 4507035 Never did the calcs, I'm glad you did - 20% is a huge difference! Sun Mar 15 12:38:50 -0700 2009 4506207 139725 janniecooks 5 4507072 If rise is purely a function of volume (no edge support effect), a cake that rises to 2" in the 9" pan, will be about 1 1/2" thick in the 10" pan. Sun Mar 15 12:57:13 -0700 2009 4507035 12139 paulj 6 4507566 Yes, and in my case, the 9" pan was supposed to yield something that could be cut into three layers. I thought I should at least get 2 layers from a 10" pan, but there was no way to cut what I got. Sun Mar 15 16:15:28 -0700 2009 4507072 19782 Full tummy 1 4506372 There is a very good article to read on the topic: UNDERSTANDING GENOISE by Rose Levy Beranbaum in Cook's Mag. May/June, 1981 p. 26 Perhaps you can get access to this article at a public library, or maybe you know someone who has the issue mentioned above. I hesitate to post the full text since it is rather lengthy. Sun Mar 15 07:36:39 -0700 2009 4505859 65993 Lisbet 2 4506492 Thanks for this. I will see if I can track it down. Sun Mar 15 08:34:04 -0700 2009 4506372 19782 Full tummy 2 4507567 As it turns out, the article is in RLB's cookbook "Cake Bible", and I have had a good read; thanks for the suggestion. I'll try her recipe next time. Sun Mar 15 16:16:22 -0700 2009 4506372 19782 Full tummy 1 4506490 Thanks so much for your replies. Yes, PBSF, those were the instructions, pretty much. I heated the egg mixture to 110 degrees, I believe, as that was specified. I think I probably overmixed the ingredients. I used my KitchenAid mixer to beat the eggs; it seems that I should have done the rest by hand, to make sure not to overmix... Is that what you would do? Sun Mar 15 08:33:45 -0700 2009 4505859 19782 Full tummy 2 4506765 I find genoise to be very tricky. The beaten egg mixture is very light while the flour mixture and butter are very heavy, therefore, making folding difficult. The ingredients must be well folded into the egg mixture yet not deflating too much of the volume that you've beaten into the eggs. Use a large spatula and fold quickly and uniformly. I find it also helpful to sift the flour mixture over the beaten eggs. Some recipes omit the butter so as not to deflate the mixture but the finished cake won't be as rich tasting. Genoise will never be as light as other types of sponge cake using baking powder or whipping the egg whites separately. I only use genoise if I am soaking the cake with lots of syrup, otherwise, I prefer the other types of sponge cakes. Sun Mar 15 10:30:52 -0700 2009 4506490 10756 PBSF 1 4506573 My first guess is that you were a bit too vigorous with your folding technique. Genoise is one of those recipes that depends entirely on the air bubbles suspended in the batter to act as "leavening." Beat too much air out of the egg whites when combining your ingredients and you will not get the cooked volume of cake you're after. There are probably videos on the web on how to properly fold ingredients together, and it's something you cannot do well with an electric mixer. There are other possibilities as to why you didn't get a proper rise, but too heavy a folding technique is almost always the problem. Good luck next time! Sun Mar 15 09:08:27 -0700 2009 4505859 112096 Caroline1 2 4507569 Oh yes!!! A video is a great idea. Thanks so much!!! Here's hoping... Sun Mar 15 16:17:02 -0700 2009 4506573 19782 Full tummy 1 4506594 There was another genoise thread not too long ago http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/586647 Sun Mar 15 09:18:25 -0700 2009 4505859 12139 paulj 2 4507570 Thanks, paulj. I did do a quick search for genoise, but didn't see anything in the first results. I obviously didn't look as hard as you!! Sun Mar 15 16:17:30 -0700 2009 4506594 19782 Full tummy 1 4507610 Well, I found this video: http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-make-chocolate-genoise-cake-6587/view/ I must say my eggs never looked like hers, but then maybe I missed that stage, as the Baking Illustrated book told me to beat the eggs for 6 - 8 minutes, and she beat hers for one minute!!! Can't wait to try it again!!!! Sun Mar 15 16:36:28 -0700 2009 4505859 19782 Full tummy 2 4508037 Bravo for trying again! I suspect it's not very long before you'll be whipping out all sorts of genoise baked things like jelly rolls and buche de noel! Sun Mar 15 19:25:17 -0700 2009 4507610 112096 Caroline1 3 4510884 Thanks so much for the vote of confidence!!!!! Mon Mar 16 16:39:29 -0700 2009 4508037 19782 Full tummy 1 4508869 Did you use a non-stick pan? Mon Mar 16 07:34:34 -0700 2009 4505859 68363 JungMann 2 4510885 Yes, it was. Is that a bad thing? Mon Mar 16 16:39:40 -0700 2009 4508869 19782 Full tummy 3 4510965 I got a very good excerpt from a book by searching for "understanding baking amendola and rees" Once the Adobe reader comes up, you can search for the word "genoise" and it'll lead you to it. Mon Mar 16 17:01:49 -0700 2009 4510885 10245 oakjoan 3 4511036 With a wide shallow pan (9" round, 2" high), use of nonstick, or surface preparation, shouldn't make much difference to the rise. With a tall cake, like angel food in a hollow core pan, it might (giving the batter something to 'cling to' as it climbs up). Mon Mar 16 17:23:39 -0700 2009 4510885 12139 paulj 4 4512530 I learnt differently. Genoises will not rise in a non-stick surface. Tue Mar 17 07:45:17 -0700 2009 4511036 68363 JungMann 5 4512732 As stated in the previous post, pan preparation for a genoise is usually grease and flour, therefore, using a non-stick pan does not make much of a difference to the rise. A genoise always shrink from the sides of the pan when baked. That is one way to tell that the cake is done. Where as for angel-food/chiffon cakes, the pan is not greased so that the mixture can stick to the sides of the pan when it rise during baking. Tue Mar 17 08:44:40 -0700 2009 4512530 10756 PBSF 6 4512737 I stand corrected. I had my chiffon and sponge cakes confused. Tue Mar 17 08:46:07 -0700 2009 4512732 68363 JungMann 1 4512873 A current thread about cornmeal v polenta was inspired by a recipe for an olive oil and polenta cake. It is somewhat like a genoise, except that it includes some cornmeal for texture, olive oil for flavor, and baking powder to help the with the rise. I'd suggest trying it if you want some more fail-proof than a traditional genoise. There's a good description at: http://www.foodhuntersguide.com/2009/03/citrus-glazed-polenta-cake-from-dolce.html Tue Mar 17 09:25:34 -0700 2009 4505859 12139 paulj 1 4515582 "Full tummy" You might like to read this.......... http://rubbernecker.typepad.com/pastryproject/page/2/ >Scroll Down to Session 15< Wed Mar 18 05:30:46 -0700 2009 4505859 65993 Lisbet 2 4515646 OOPS.......dunno if that web address will take you there.......Please try; http://rubbernecker.typepad.com/pastryproject/page/2/ Wed Mar 18 06:02:28 -0700 2009 4515582 65993 Lisbet 1 4546587 Baking with Julia, episode 102 with Alice Medrich http://www.createtv.com/CreateProgram.nsf/vProgramsByNola/BWJA has good hints on making a genoise - triple sifting flour (and cocoa) - folding in the flour with largest spatula - folding the butter into a small portion of the batter, then into the rest - bake in pan with parchment paper, but not greased or floured - test for doneness by touch I found a video of this show - it turns out to be the same Wonderhowto one that Full Tummy found. Sat Mar 28 11:48:31 -0700 2009 4505859 12139 paulj 1 4824418 I don't know if it will help or merely provide amusement, but here's an article discussing the physics of genoise cake baking. http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/physics/pdf/0503/0503210v2.pdf from the article: "The primary emphasis of this study has been to explain how modifying a cake recipe by changing either the dimensions of the cake or the amount of cake batter alters the baking time. Our analysis has been restricted to one particular cake, the genoise. Based on data collected and ensuing analysis we have concluded that conduction is the primary mechanism of heat transfer and that the Diffusion equation provides a theoretical framework adequate for describing the baking process; however, the diffusion coefficient does not remain constant during the baking process." Thu Jul 02 09:17:58 -0700 2009 4505859 11362 Brian S