600859 Tue Mar 03 13:55:04 -0800 2009 237 29 Not About Food 0 4470244 I've heard so many people say marscapone (R on the first syllable, pone as 1 syllable) - countless times on the Food Network, where you'd think they'd know better. It's MAS-CAR-PO-NE. It's not that hard and I'm most certainly not Italian. Does this bother anyone else or am I being petty? Tue Mar 03 13:55:04 -0800 2009 10401 soniabegonia 1 4470321 It bothers me to NO END, especially when it is mispronounced by a professional. I have heard Michael Chiarello call it MARS-CA-PONE and he's Italian! Another one that bugs me is Turmeric being pronounced TOO-MER-IC. Thanks for letting rant in your space ;-) Tue Mar 03 14:11:31 -0800 2009 4470244 41042 jacquelyncoffey 2 4470551 I find it really pretentious when non-Italians pronounce italian food word incorrectly as if they really speak Italian. I have a friend who is IRISH for goodness sake and she does this all the time!!! For instance braciole (brah-CHO-leh), pronounced as Brah-chol prosciutto (proh-SHOOT-toh) pronounced as proh-shoot ricotta (ree-COHT-tah) pronouced as ree-coht and so on... It just bugs me every which way from Sunday. PS does this have anything to do with NY Italians who are not the same kind of Italian as REAL Italians???? Tue Mar 03 15:09:26 -0800 2009 4470321 80667 janetms383 3 4470563 And in Italy, they DO NOT USE A SPOON TO TWIRL PASTA!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tue Mar 03 15:11:30 -0800 2009 4470551 80667 janetms383 4 4484409 They also eat pizza with a knife and fork. Sun Mar 08 10:07:06 -0700 2009 4470563 12135 John Manzo 3 4470613 thats a very new york/new jersey pronunciation, based on a sicilian dialect i believe Tue Mar 03 15:26:41 -0800 2009 4470551 135229 thew 4 4470637 that was my point about NY Italian, but we live in California, I'm Italian by blood, and she is IRISH so I'll stand by my opinion of pretentious! Tue Mar 03 15:34:39 -0800 2009 4470613 80667 janetms383 5 4470661 And the way Giada overpronunces. Sounds phony. Tue Mar 03 15:37:31 -0800 2009 4470637 251167 billieboy 6 4478921 Pretentious is when she talks about making paninos. Huh? She also says marscapone but drawls out that rzzzz sound. Fri Mar 06 06:09:05 -0800 2009 4470661 39874 chowser 7 4479914 Wow, paninos? So she's overenunciating cluelessness. It irks me that paninis is used even in print media where the editors have clearly made a conscious choice, but it makes more sense than paninos. Does she talk about raviolos and tortellinos, too? Fri Mar 06 10:58:46 -0800 2009 4478921 10074 Caitlin McGrath 8 4480339 I don't see what's so horrible about paninos. That's just the English plural of a borrowed word. Sure panini is the Italian plural, but where's the rule that we have to borrow both the singular and plural form of a word? As to the use or not of raviolos and tortellinos, how many of those do you eat per serving? How many panini per serving? Why use the borrowed words in the first place? Why not just call them sandwiches, or toasted sandwiches? Fri Mar 06 13:07:34 -0800 2009 4479914 12139 paulj 9 4516865 I guess if we accept pizzas instead of the correct pizze, paninos is not beyond the pale, right.... Wed Mar 18 12:02:28 -0700 2009 4480339 13819 Karl S 10 4516998 I assume Italian has regular ways of constructing plurals from singulars. If so, that is a syntactic feature, as opposed to a semantic one Generally it is much easier to borrow words than syntax. Creole languages often have a 'native' syntax, with many words borrowed from the colonizing language/culture. English has borrowed words from Greek, but has not borrowed its system of modifying nouns to reflect case (use as subject, object of a verb, object of a preposition, etc). It has borrowed Spanish words without consistently using 'o' or 'a' endings to reflect gender. Diminutives are another syntactic feature that are often borrowed as words, and used inconsistently. Wed Mar 18 12:38:12 -0700 2009 4516865 12139 paulj 11 4517022 Plural of nouns ending in A is usually E; Plural of nouns ending in O or E is usually I. Wed Mar 18 12:43:18 -0700 2009 4516998 13819 Karl S 10 4744714 Paninos could be defended but not "paninis". Fri Jun 05 07:05:57 -0700 2009 4516865 83777 mbfant 6 4479952 I was just going to through Giada into this mix when I saw your post. It totally bugs me how she pronounces Italian words. She'll be talking, w/ her normal American accent, and then all of the sudden she'll say "ri-COAT-a" or "spa-GET-ee" with the thickest Italian accent she can muster. UGH! Fri Mar 06 11:09:27 -0800 2009 4470661 71241 lynnlato 7 4505911 Actually, if you listen closely, she pronounces it as "spa-GIT-ee". It bothers the **** out of me. Sat Mar 14 22:08:42 -0700 2009 4479952 119807 Alfred G 8 4506282 Ditto! Sun Mar 15 06:43:05 -0700 2009 4505911 34558 roxlet 5 4490444 As a woman of partial Irish lineage, I would ask you to consider an option other than pretentiousness. Rather, at least in my case, it has been an attempt to pronounce the words the way I have been told by people who would be expected to know. When I was growing up, we had no terms more exotic than the generic “spaghetti.” I have never been to Italy. I live in a small Eastern city with a large Italian population. So, when I go to a store or restaurant or friend’s house and the person serving tells me I am actually asking for “brazhool” or “manicote,” I make a little mental note and try to ask for it that way the next time. As for mascarpone, I don’t know that I have ever had to pronounce the term, but I’ll admit I had not noticed the reversal of letters until this thread. Now I will have to make a point to get some so I can pronounce it correctly! Tue Mar 10 07:26:51 -0700 2009 4470637 25664 meg944 6 4864700 I love that, meg944. You're funny! :) Thu Jul 16 11:53:43 -0700 2009 4490444 252189 h2Bn 4 4471067 There's several Italian dialects, mostly in the south but also around Milan, that drop the final vowel in a word - so something like "proh-shoot" is totally authentic and correct for someone from those areas. Lots of southern Italian immigrants ended up in NYC/NJ around 100 years ago, so the pronunciation's common there. Modern standard Italian is an artificially created language based closely on the Tuscan dialect, spoken by most people these days, but regional dialects vary widely (some can even be considered separate languages). But enough of my linguistics-major word-geekery. As to whether it's pretentious for an Irish Californian to say it? Depends where she picked it up, but probably. Tue Mar 03 18:08:54 -0800 2009 4470613 131105 Emmmily 3 4472476 It's an entirely an Italian American artifact, as terms and pronunciation devolved over generations, usually modelled on Neapolitan dialect, which can cut off or swallow endings. Neapolitans set the tone for much of what we know as Italian American food and dining. Remember that Italian (and southern European) immigration was cut off in 1924 and only somewhat reopened in the 60s--trapping language and foodways and custom in a time warp. Generations dropped the language, which was usually dialect anyway, except for food terms and imprecations. Also, it was not easy to find many "real" Italian products until the 70s--balsamic vinegar, for one--was completely unknown here before then. Anyway, the "gapagool"ing of Italian started a long way back and has a complicated history. There's much more awareness of all things Italian among Italian-Americans these days, and speaking as one I'm happy as a vongole that the anti-marscapone movement has begun. Next: how to correctly pronounce omerta (forgive lack of diacritic over "a"). It's not OMER-tah but omer-TAH; the accent grave marks the stress. Like in baccala. Wed Mar 04 08:32:14 -0800 2009 4470551 249467 bob96 3 4474942 Maybe your friend watched too many episodes of the "The Sopranos," just like me. Heheh. Proh-shoot, ree-coht...the way Carmela always dropped that last vowel...so bad-ass. Was that a great show for food, or what? Wed Mar 04 21:06:42 -0800 2009 4470551 10592 LicketySplit 1 4470366 i could have way too much fun with this thread...both of those irk me to no end. others that get under my skin: - chi-pol-tay (same problem as marscapone - why do people invert the order of consonants like that?) - 4-syllable pronunciation of paprika (pap-uh-ree-ka) there are more, but i can't think of them right now. Tue Mar 03 14:23:52 -0800 2009 4470244 103920 goodhealthgourmet 2 4470850 I swear the four-syllable paprika pronunciation crossed my mind earlier today before I even saw this thread. UGH! It's an Emerilism and I'm not a big fan of him, either! Agree re chipotle, too...it's like "nuke-u-lar" which, thankfully, we don't have to hear each time our current president speaks. :) I live in Middletown, CT--a sister city to Melilli, Sicily--and the whole "Let's leave the final consonants off" is rampant here. When I was growing up, my uncle (born here and Italian, but not Sicilian) would proudly pronounce "ri-GAWT" and "mani-GAWT" though I later learned that is substandard Italian...It is all so inconsistent. Why would it be maniGAWT, yet no one ever drops the final "i" when we say "Don't forget the cannoli!" Speaking of which, I will be starting my (first trial) cannoli gelato tonight, made with mas-car-po-ne from the same deli where the man in front of me ordered "mor-ta-dell!" ;) Some folks you just can't reach! Tue Mar 03 16:53:39 -0800 2009 4470366 249664 kattyeyes 3 4472359 NY Italians of certain descent (my guess is Neapolitan) and kids who grew up in proximate neighborhoods definitely drop the final 'i' on cannoli - as well as transmuting the 'c' to a 'g' and the 'o' to an 'oo', so what comes out is a request for a 'ganool'. As long as it's understood, why on earth would anyone care? There's a lot of underlying class prejudice around pronunciation and accents. To me, the pretension is in the pickiness of the critic insisting on the "correct" way to say something, not the speaker's accent. How boring things would be if we all pronounced everything the same way - the homogenization of the American language, for example, verges on the tragic as regional accents vanish at an accelerating pace. Three cheers for ganool, I say! Bring on the manigott and the mortadell, and don't bogart that gabbagool!! Wed Mar 04 07:54:43 -0800 2009 4470850 12622 Striver 4 4472407 Well, as my grandfather would say, "Vattay vattay dooey!" It was only about 15 years after he died (and despite taking Italian in school) that I finally figured out what that really was. Even my Italian professor couldn't guess what this pearl of wisdom was that Poppy always said. Can you guess? "Fatti fatti tuoi." In his words, "Keep your nose clean!" or in other words, "You do your own thing!" Kinda like MYOB. :) Enjoy your manigott, mortadell and ganool! Wed Mar 04 08:08:50 -0800 2009 4472359 249664 kattyeyes 2 4470874 LOL! chi-pol-tay is a good one! Doesn't even sound like a word! I guess I'm not alone here... For some reason, the R in the first syllable bothers me more than not pronouncing the fourth syllable. Just seems careless to me, like they're not paying attention to how the word is spelled. I can give one a pass for not pronouncing the fourth syllable for an Anglicized pronunciation. Tue Mar 03 16:58:19 -0800 2009 4470366 10401 soniabegonia 3 4488240 Of course chipoltay is a word. It's pig latin for tchipol.;-) You'd think with the big chain Chipotle that people would get it right. Mon Mar 09 13:53:56 -0700 2009 4470874 39874 chowser 3 4495952 I worked with a very sweet Austrian who, no matter how many times we tried to correct him, called his favorite restaurant "Chip-o-tuhl". I still think of that every time I pass one! Wed Mar 11 17:09:16 -0700 2009 4470874 46417 LAcupcake 2 4479972 THANK YOU GHG! I was beginning to think people knew something I didn't with the pronounciation of "chipotle". So often I hear people say "chi-pol-te". Don't even get me started with gyros. LOL Fri Mar 06 11:14:41 -0800 2009 4470366 71241 lynnlato 2 4504685 How about "vin-a- ga-rette" and "buh-li-ni" (for blini). Aaaarrrgghhh! Sat Mar 14 12:40:19 -0700 2009 4470366 120264 joc1234 2 4508914 Chi-pol-tay makes me CRAZY. I've heard so many people pronounce it that way that I was beginning to think I was pronouncing it incorrectly! Mon Mar 16 07:54:59 -0700 2009 4470366 201607 BestFriendBritt 3 4509120 How's that 'i' in the first syllable pronounced? an indistinct schwa, or a clear long 'e'? Come to think of it most English speakers will butcher the other vowels as well: The way the Wiki article writes it in phonetic English is 'chee-POTE-lay' But then it can be argued that the Mexican Spanish pronunciation is a butchering of the Nahuatl word 'chilpoctli' or its reverse "pochilli" (Wiki citation). Mon Mar 16 09:00:12 -0700 2009 4508914 12139 paulj 1 4470612 It drives me crazy! That has got to be one of the most mis-pronouced words in the food kingdom. And I agree, it's especially annoying when Michael Chiarello does it, because he likes to make such a big deal of speaking Italian. (What's the English word for that? Oh yea, crunchy!) The guy grew up in California speaking English. Well, his mis-pronounciations give him away. Tue Mar 03 15:26:20 -0800 2009 4470244 64085 Kathleen M 2 4470663 just out of interest, why do Americans say pahsta instead of passta? Italians do not pronounce it with a long 'a' sound. Tue Mar 03 15:37:55 -0800 2009 4470612 22559 smartie 3 4470761 what Americans are you talking to? I've never heard anyone say it that way Tue Mar 03 16:19:37 -0800 2009 4470663 80667 janetms383 4 4470773 Might be a southern drawl. Tue Mar 03 16:22:48 -0800 2009 4470761 251167 billieboy 5 4470787 I was thinking poster might be referring to a regional accent. Tue Mar 03 16:32:23 -0800 2009 4470773 80667 janetms383 3 4470873 Standard Italian does not have the a as in had sound. Maybe this is a Sicillian thing? Tue Mar 03 16:58:01 -0800 2009 4470663 11995 pikawicca 3 4471139 Wouldn't a long 'a' be Paysta??? To see how Italians do pronounce it I found this on one site: * a-A: This letter denotes a single sound, whose pronunciation is always similar to an English a in cat, fact, black; an "o" in how, cloud, house, mouse. Also, It sounds like the word �a� in the English word ah! Examples: Pretty confusing if you ask me. Seems to say BOTH are right. Then I found this: http://www.cyberitalian.com/en/html/alphabet.html That site would make Pahsta the correct pronunciation (as in Casa). The only time I ever hear it pronounced Passta (in the US) is when someone like Gordon Ramsay says it, so it's likely one of those British things. Tue Mar 03 18:31:39 -0800 2009 4470663 11405 Midlife 4 4471187 apparently Canadians favor the Passta pronunciation as well. it irritates me every time Kevin Brauch says it on Iron Chef America. Tue Mar 03 18:47:03 -0800 2009 4471139 103920 goodhealthgourmet 5 4484419 The Canadian long a. They (I'd say "we" but I'm an American immigrant here and still haven't adopted this one) also pronounce "Viet NAM" to rhyme with "Spam." Kevin is Canadian, so why this would irritate you is beyond me... Sun Mar 08 10:11:02 -0700 2009 4471187 12135 John Manzo 6 4484711 it irritates me because it sounds wrong to my American ear. Sun Mar 08 12:26:21 -0700 2009 4484419 103920 goodhealthgourmet 5 4505566 Apparently it irritates Batali too. I heard him correct Kevin's pronunciation of pasta. Sat Mar 14 18:55:47 -0700 2009 4471187 11561 Cpt Wafer 3 4478930 Do you mean the difference between American "pah stuh" and English "Pass stuh"? The Italian pronunciation is ah for a but I've never heard anyone say pay stuh with a long a sound. Fri Mar 06 06:11:47 -0800 2009 4470663 39874 chowser 4 4480762 yes Americans say pah sta, English say pasta with a short a (as in pass the way Americans say pass not how English say pass - really round the other way!!). Italians say it the same way as the English. Fri Mar 06 15:03:09 -0800 2009 4478930 22559 smartie 5 4480885 There seems to be lots of evidence that the Italians don't say it the same way as the British. I'll repost from above: http://www.cyberitalian.com/en/html/alphabet.html Not trying to be argumentative but this is getting confusing. I've never heard an Italian say Passta. Fri Mar 06 15:52:35 -0800 2009 4480762 11405 Midlife 6 4481017 It makes sense considering "a" is pronounces "ah", not "aa". Fri Mar 06 16:50:29 -0800 2009 4480885 39874 chowser 6 4484973 Neither have I, and I've spent a fair amount of time in Italy. Never been to Sicily, though, so maybe it's the "passta" bastion. Sun Mar 08 14:33:15 -0700 2009 4480885 11995 pikawicca 5 4481013 It might be a regional thing but I've been taught (and told by many Italians) to say pah sta. But, there are quite a few regional variations of gnocchi, too. Fri Mar 06 16:47:56 -0800 2009 4480762 39874 chowser 2 4470789 LOL so, what, he makes a comment in Italian and then acts like he doesn't know how to say it in English.. Oh My, and I thought I had the lock on pretentious!! Tue Mar 03 16:33:37 -0800 2009 4470612 80667 janetms383 3 4473196 yes! or not really a comment (I'm not sure that he could form a complete sentence in Italian!) but he will say a word and then say "Oh, how do you say that in English?" and then pretend to come up with it. It would be hard to sound more pretentious if he were trying! Wed Mar 04 11:24:07 -0800 2009 4470789 64085 Kathleen M 1 4470802 Egregious examples: van-ella, pa-preek-a, saulmon, (pronouncing the 'L"), creme berlee. I'm so with janet on the BS Italian thing. I grew up in Jersey around a lot of Italian families who said "mooz-a-rell", "gabba-gool", etc. Sorry, but you'll never catch me tawkin' like dat dere. Especially not after taking an Italian class. The language doesn't have any silent letters. If it's there, you say it. ciao, adam Tue Mar 03 16:39:16 -0800 2009 4470244 154787 adamshoe 2 4470818 I hear the gabba-gool alot from her as well, what the heck is that? The spoon thing bothers me too. She always put a spoon out when she make "macaroni" and our friends that were born and raised in California use it!! All of a sudden they become pasta twirling challenged! Tue Mar 03 16:43:29 -0800 2009 4470802 80667 janetms383 3 4470916 You know it's "capicola" (gabba-gool), right? I tell you this even though I do twirl my spaghetti with a spoon. ;) Same with pasta fazool--is really pasta fagiole. Here is a kick for folks on this thread. It's a link to a song about scungilli that used to play on the jukebox at my uncle's restaurant (now closed), "The Italian Delight" a.k.a. "The Scungilli Song"--notice the singer pronounces a lot of the words just the way we're all raggin' about (scun-geel, pasta fazool): http://www.box.net/shared/9vdhj1eql1 Tue Mar 03 17:12:20 -0800 2009 4470818 249664 kattyeyes 4 4485171 I say them all how they were pronounced growing up- but I thought pasta fazool was actually spelled out pasta e fagioli - no? There must be 100 different ways. And I say Gabba-gool, or cappy ham because that's how the girl that slices it recognizes it. I also ask for More-ta-dell and they look at me like 'huh wha?' - I'm sure I bastardize other food items, not just the ones I grew up eating, but these seem to come up often. Hey- we also twirl in a spoon- it's neater that way. I'm not married to it, I don't necessarily insist on putting spoons out with spaghetti, but if I don't, someone will usually go and grab one to use! Gyro (YEAR-OH) ricotta (Ree-Goat or Ree-Got) I don't call it a sammy or a sammich unless I'm drunk and slurring... but I do call it a Hoagie when it's got cold cuts, oil & vinegar dressing and produce... Sun Mar 08 15:48:36 -0700 2009 4470916 110426 Boccone Dolce 5 4485485 Yes, pasta e fagiole is the real spelling vs. the phonetic "fazool." "Hoagie" is another regional difference--I know what you mean when you say "hoagie" but don't know why that is. In this neck of the woods, we call them "grinders," which makes no sense, really, but that is what we have always called them. What makes best sense literally is a "sub" but I never say that. And, believe me, having grown up with alternate pronunciations most of my life, it is difficult to shake "pro-ZHOOT" and "riGAWT" and the like. Keep twirlin', DB! :) Sun Mar 08 17:48:37 -0700 2009 4485171 249664 kattyeyes 6 4485495 grinders were because it as initially a shredded meat sandwich on a hero roll. hen i as in school in boston i as asked if i wanted a grinder and a frappe. i said no, i wanted a hero and a milkshake Sun Mar 08 17:51:14 -0700 2009 4485485 135229 thew 6 4591431 I have to say, one thing i loved about moving back to CT is that people knew what i was talking about when i said grinder. Mon Apr 13 10:02:42 -0700 2009 4485485 264146 kubasd 4 4504701 God, that was terrible!! Sat Mar 14 12:46:58 -0700 2009 4470916 120264 joc1234 2 4470982 va-NEL-la drives me nuts too. others that now come to mind: - car-muhl (caramel) - sammich (sandwich) - jy-ro (gyro) Tue Mar 03 17:37:54 -0800 2009 4470802 103920 goodhealthgourmet 3 4471004 Gyro= yee-ro. Tue Mar 03 17:48:00 -0800 2009 4470982 154787 adamshoe 4 4471021 i know, which is why i cringe when i hear someone say jy-ro. Tue Mar 03 17:56:11 -0800 2009 4471004 103920 goodhealthgourmet 5 4471107 As in I jyro'd to the The Scungilli Song?? Tue Mar 03 18:21:10 -0800 2009 4471021 80667 janetms383 5 4505944 Let's not forget moo-SAKA for moo-sa-KA. Sat Mar 14 22:21:38 -0700 2009 4471021 119807 Alfred G 3 4471680 We beat the caramel one to death on another thread. Tue Mar 03 23:33:53 -0800 2009 4470982 12139 paulj 4 4473066 i remember it - the one about regional dialects. pecan was another topic in there IIRC. Wed Mar 04 10:54:14 -0800 2009 4471680 103920 goodhealthgourmet 3 4473420 Oh, carmuhl and carmuhlize bug me no end! Wed Mar 04 12:36:07 -0800 2009 4470982 10532 LindaWhit 2 4471683 Jacques Pepin has a rather strong 'L' in his 'salmon'. Tue Mar 03 23:36:18 -0800 2009 4470802 12139 paulj 3 4473631 Which is kind of funny, given that the French saumon has none. Wed Mar 04 13:39:22 -0800 2009 4471683 10074 Caitlin McGrath 2 4478964 What's wrong with pa-preek-a? Do you prefer pap-rick-a? I don't think this is a right and wrong difference so much as a regional variance of pronunciation. Now, pa-pur-reek-a as mentioned above is clearly in the wrong. Fri Mar 06 06:28:30 -0800 2009 4470802 24055 Atahualpa 3 4479939 I think the distinction is between PAP-rick-a/PAP-reek-a (correct) and pap-REEK-a (incorrect). Fri Mar 06 11:05:46 -0800 2009 4478964 10074 Caitlin McGrath 4 4479984 Well, as it often turns out, both pronunciations are correct: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/paprika?qsrc=2888 pap⋅ri⋅ka Show Spelled Pronunciation [pa-PREE-kuh, puh-, pah-, PAP-ri-kuh] And the audio pronunciation at Merriam-Webster has it as "pah-PREE-kah". http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paprika Fri Mar 06 11:17:28 -0800 2009 4479939 10532 LindaWhit 5 4480062 Yes, we pronounce things every which way in American English, which makes any which way commonly "correct." But just because M-W says ricotta can be pronounced ric-oh-ta or ric-ah-ta, for example, doesn't make the latter truly correct AFAIC.. Sorry, Sarah Moulton, love ya, but ricotta and salata aren't meant to rhyme, even if the "voice of authority" says what the hey. Fri Mar 06 11:38:10 -0800 2009 4479984 10074 Caitlin McGrath 6 4480197 Ricotta Salata (ree-coh-tah sah-lah-tah) A dry salted ricotta cheese that has a sharp, almost tangy flavor http://www.agferrari.com/index.php/item/item/3106.html Fri Mar 06 12:24:43 -0800 2009 4480062 12139 paulj 7 4480371 I know what it is and how it's pronounced. To clarify my post above, Merriam-Webster's slogan is "The Voice of Authority." M-W says ricotta can be pronounced with the middle syllable as ah or oh. Sarah Moulton pronounces it ri-cah-tah, so when she says ricotta salata, the two words rhyme, wrongly. It grates on my ears, much as I respect her. Fri Mar 06 13:14:59 -0800 2009 4480197 10074 Caitlin McGrath 6 4480534 So, tell me, why is your pronunciation of Paprika more authoritatively correct? I understand why ricotta would be pronounced the way you would prefer; but, I don't understand what is wrong with either pronunciation of paprika. Fri Mar 06 13:59:38 -0800 2009 4480062 24055 Atahualpa 7 4480652 I'm not saying it's not correct in American English; as LindaWhit showed, it is. The same sources say either pronunciation of ricotta is correct in American English, and in either case one can argue that they're adapted words and that's that (unlike marscapone and chipolte, which seem pretty clearly to be mistakes however you pronounce the vowels). My personal preference goes back to where the emphasis is placed in the language the word comes from. If I'd grown up hearing, or ever lived around people who said, pap-REEK-uh, we might not be having this conversation, but I guess I like to connect food words with their sources. Believe me, I'll only argue it here, I don't get dogmatic about it or correct people's pronunciation. Fri Mar 06 14:27:00 -0800 2009 4480534 10074 Caitlin McGrath 1 4470833 Warshington Arnge using I instead of me saint croiks fageeohlee sammich prolly Then however what's his name does on Jeopardy--it's too much I will admit that having heard marscapone most of my life, it took awhile to get it back to mascarpone. And I'm from Italian-rich Chicago. Tue Mar 03 16:50:00 -0800 2009 4470244 224238 Caralien 2 4471040 hahah warshington and arnge is what everyone says here in the Baltimore area! Nothing wrong with that (: but on another note, I hate when I hear Ming Tsai try and pronounce gochugaru. He calls it "koshikari" Tue Mar 03 18:00:23 -0800 2009 4470833 24546 bitsubeats 1 4471697 If you are not Italian, how do you know that you are right? OK, the misplaced R make sense, but what about the stress, and final 'ne' or not? I've learned by now that when someone makes a dogmatic statement about pronunciation of a word like this, there is often more to issue than they think. Anyways I poked around, and found this self-proclaimed cheese expert's opinion, and bit of history on the cheese. http://www.thenibble.com/reviews/main/cheese/cheese2/whey/2006-10.asp mas-car-POH-neh. And according to the Wiki article some Italian journalist has argued that it really should be 'mascherpone'. There are multiple ideas of where the word comes from. Wed Mar 04 00:02:51 -0800 2009 4470244 12139 paulj 1 4472242 The language my grandparents spoke (emigrated to New York from Sicily in the early 1900's), didn't sound anything like what is considered the Italian language today. Wed Mar 04 07:23:43 -0800 2009 4470244 259011 Demented 1 4473266 May be you should start at home - HOME COOKING to be specific. Do a search for 'marscapone', and then weigh in on each of the threads, correcting their spelling. It would be a good way to make friends and influence chow hounds. :) Wed Mar 04 11:45:57 -0800 2009 4470244 12139 paulj 2 4478932 LOL, how many pages of posts would that be? Fri Mar 06 06:13:04 -0800 2009 4473266 39874 chowser 1 4473283 I noticed on an episode of Top Chef, one of the chefs mentioned bruschetta twice and pronounced them two different ways -- "brus-ket-ta" and "bru-shet-ta." Did she not know how to pronounce it so she was covering all bases? Wed Mar 04 11:50:55 -0800 2009 4470244 10763 Miss Needle 2 4474250 who did that? maybe she heard someone else say it differently after the first time and changed the pronunciation. speaking of Top Chef, way too many people have called blinis "bellinis" on that show. Wed Mar 04 16:51:39 -0800 2009 4473283 103920 goodhealthgourmet 3 4474276 It was definitely a female. I think it was Jamie, and it was around the 4-7th episode. If not Jamie, my bet is on Ariane. Wed Mar 04 17:00:20 -0800 2009 4474250 10763 Miss Needle 3 4474473 bellinis are most certainly a bubbly with peach nectar. oof! Wed Mar 04 18:05:30 -0800 2009 4474250 224238 Caralien 1 4473718 Risotto drives me crazy. I hear "rizzuto" all the time. It's "riz-otto" not Phil Rizzuto. I am so surprised when what's his name -- the Good Eats guy -- does it all the time. He's Mr. Precision and should know better!! Wed Mar 04 14:00:11 -0800 2009 4470244 34558 roxlet 2 4473776 Besides all the mispronouncing, if I'm not mistaken, I believe that technically mascarpone and ricotta are not really cheeses as such, but by-products. I've often heard certain Italian chefs on FTN refer to both as "ricotta cheese", etc. I know they're trying to relate to their viewers, not intimidate them, try to elevate their awareness and eagerness to try new things, but I guess I don't like misinformation, or am I being too nit-picky? Wed Mar 04 14:18:52 -0800 2009 4473718 46008 markabauman 3 4474025 Well, ricotta is traditionally made *from* the by-product of cheese making (the whey left from making mozarella), but it still has to be made by adding acid and forming a curd, which is sort of the definition of making cheese (creating curd). Ricotta and mascarpone are fresh, soft cheeses (like cream cheese, cottage cheese, and the French fromage frais). So, to answer your final question: yes. Wed Mar 04 15:38:51 -0800 2009 4473776 10074 Caitlin McGrath 1 4474232 Not horribly irritating to me. Could be because I'm the one that irritates others!! And I no doubt will continue to pronounce words the way I always have, please don't take it personally... ;o) For the record- I say 'ma-ska-pone' - I realize this may be offensive to you. I could run down the list of words I butcher, but it would take too long. Wed Mar 04 16:44:47 -0800 2009 4470244 110426 Boccone Dolce 1 4474285 If we're going down this road... Sake does NOT rhyme with hockey. And Tokyo only has 2 syllables. Wed Mar 04 17:02:38 -0800 2009 4470244 28006 Jennalynn 2 4474524 waddaya mean Jennalynn? I had some awesome sock-ee in To-kee-yo ;) adam Wed Mar 04 18:20:43 -0800 2009 4474285 154787 adamshoe 2 4474817 <<And Tokyo only has 2 syllables.>> That may be true, but not in the Blue Oyster Cult song...sing it with me: "Ohhhhh, no! There goes To-ky-o! Go, go, Godzilla! History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of men." Oooh, here's another one: "Swored-fish" instead of "soared-fish" (swordfish). Wed Mar 04 20:09:46 -0800 2009 4474285 249664 kattyeyes 1 4476892 It works the other way, too. Not so long ago I was at the local Italian grocery and asked for a pound of bruschetta -- I pronounced it brus-ket'-ta -- and the guy behind the counter had no idea what I was talking about. He finally asked, "Do you mean bru-shet'-ta?" I wasn't about to make a big deal of it, so I just nodded. Oh, and here in the Philly area, Acme (as in the supermarket chain) has three syllables (Ac-a-me). Thu Mar 05 12:43:20 -0800 2009 4470244 49600 CindyJ 2 4476901 I thought bruschetta was something you made at home on the grill, not something you could buy by the pound :) Thu Mar 05 12:45:47 -0800 2009 4476892 12139 paulj 3 4476924 You're right, of course. Technically, the grilled bread is the bruschetta, and the stuff I was buying was the topping, but if I'd asked instead for the chopped tomato bruschetta topping, the language barrier would have kept me there indefinitely! Thu Mar 05 12:50:10 -0800 2009 4476901 49600 CindyJ 4 4476941 You could have asked for some of that basil pico de gallo :) Thu Mar 05 12:53:27 -0800 2009 4476924 12139 paulj 2 4504718 If you asked for a pound of bruschetta, you should be given one pound of bread slices that have been rubbed with garlic and grilled. Perhaps you mean bruschetta "topping," which for some reason in the US has defaulted to mean diced tomatoes, parsley and olive oil. Sat Mar 14 12:53:08 -0700 2009 4476892 120264 joc1234 3 4507286 I know! I know! And I said as much in my post above. But in that particular shop, the tray in the case that holds the product has a label with the price, and the name of the product: "Bruschetta" Sun Mar 15 14:23:48 -0700 2009 4504718 49600 CindyJ 4 4744709 Stand your ground! Defend the h in bruschetta! Bruschetta is not one of those words that was brought over to the US by Calabrian immigrants three or four generations ago. Those words have taken on an independent identity (arugula I presume is one of those, also stromboli, which is a dactyl in Italian). Bruschetta arrived in very recent memory, so there's no excuse for the mispronunciation. Fri Jun 05 07:04:46 -0700 2009 4507286 83777 mbfant 5 4762306 Perfettamente d'accordo. But my Calabrian folks, who arrived in 1920, are completely innocent, linguistically if nowhere else, and could roll a lovely "sfogliatella". They never had any occasion to use the word "bruschetta", though we always enjoyed crisp pane biscottato (or freselle) with a garlic, oil, and tomato topping. None of my DOC Brooklyn Italian friends or relatives have any idea of the etymology of stromboli, and wouldn't order one anyway. However it's said. Wed Jun 10 23:43:50 -0700 2009 4744709 249467 bob96 1 4480670 I watched a bit of Michael Chiarello today and wondered where the pronunciation of "balsamic" as "balzamic" came from. Fri Mar 06 14:33:32 -0800 2009 4470244 65673 monavano 2 4481010 I think it's some obscure rule where an s followed by a vowel but preceded by a consonant = a "z". Not sure...it was a long time ago that I took Italian. I've never heard it said as "balzamic", though. adam Fri Mar 06 16:47:39 -0800 2009 4480670 154787 adamshoe 1 4483869 Having studied phonetics and recently having taken up a foreign language I believe some mispronunciations are not due to a lack of education but due to auditory perception. Mascarpone translates for some as Marscapone. Additionally, Marscapone may be more consistent w/ general american pronunciation than Mascarpone. Sun Mar 08 00:24:35 -0800 2009 4470244 13030 free sample addict aka Tracy L 2 4484476 Attributing the shift of the 'r' from second to first syllable to English morphophonemics may be a stretch (except maybe for the 'Warshington' crowd). Still, the 'mar-sca-PONE' version fits English speaking patterns more comfortably than 'mas-car-PON-e' (or -PO-ne'). With the right inflection, the latter reminds me of Chico in 'A Night At the Opera'. Sun Mar 08 10:38:54 -0700 2009 4483869 12139 paulj 1 4484911 These pronunciation threads are always simultaneously fascinating and infuriating. The idea that there's only one way to say a word, and your way is the right way. Language is not static. It's always evolving, expanding, absorbing. The purpose of speech is to communicate ideas; if an idea is communicated and understood correctly, why the pretension? Not to pick on one particular chowhound, but just as an example: the British IPA pronunciation of pasta is /pæstə/. (Standard) Italian doesn't have the vowel sound /æ/. If your Italian teacher told you this was how to pronounce the Italian "a", you need to get your money back. There's also no schwa (/ə/) in Standard Italian. And anyway, it doesn't matter. Pronounce pasta in whatever fashion is natural to you. It's an Italian word. It's a British English word. It's an American English word. We all say it; we eat all it. Sun Mar 08 14:01:32 -0700 2009 4470244 106932 Agent Orange 1 4485506 This is a slippery slope. Do we really want people to refer to Munich as Munchen, or Pairs as Pahree? I gag whenever I encounter someone who has been to Saint Petersburg and yatters on about "Lairmitahge." Sun Mar 08 17:54:20 -0700 2009 4470244 11995 pikawicca 2 4485516 But the English word is mascarpone. It's not that the Italian word is mascarpone and the English word is marscapone which is along the lines of your example. Sun Mar 08 17:57:13 -0700 2009 4485506 39874 chowser 3 4488200 Exactly... this is not a mispronunciation... it's rearranging the letters. Mon Mar 09 13:44:15 -0700 2009 4485516 28006 Jennalynn 1 4488435 From a page on food in Lodi (in Lombardy) 'Mascarpone Il formaggio mascarpone è un lodigiano purosangue deve il suo nome alla parola dialettale lodigiana mascherpa che indica il fenomeno di agglomerazione della panna del latte. Infatti il vero mascarpone è il prodotto della coagulazione della panna fresca precedentemente riscaldata a bagnomaria a 90 C°." http://www.zerodelta.net/speciali/guide/lodi-provincia-guida-di-viaggio/gastronomia-lodi.php http://www.turismo.provincia.lodi.it/TPL_gastronomia_NOTIZIA_1.asp?IDCategoria=633&IDNotizia=33 So the English 'marscapone' is a distortion of the Italian 'mascarpone' which is a distortion of the Lodigian 'mascherpa' (and some even claim that is derived from Spanish 'mas que bueno'). Mon Mar 09 14:43:25 -0700 2009 4470244 12139 paulj 2 4488920 I guess that all makes sense if you understand Italian. Anyway...................Is there a difference between a 'distortion' (maybe due to regionalized pronunciation or meaning) and a dis[placement of a letter (more likely due to laziness in hearing properly or bothering to see how a word is spelled)??? Is the 'Nucular' and nuclear thing a distortion or the latter (no political commentary intended)? Mon Mar 09 17:00:03 -0700 2009 4488435 11405 Midlife 3 4489237 Why attribute one change to 'regionalized pronunciation' and the other to laziness? When I took linguistics classes some years ago, the focus was on how people actual speak a language, and what we could learn about languages and thinking from it. The intuition of the 'native language speaker' determined what was correct or not, not the rules developed by a grammarian. Linguistics papers are full of examples where speaker A accepts this pronunciation or construction, but rejects that one, followed by attempts to derive general principals from the data. In this case, the spelling and Italian derivation point clearly to one pronunciation. But the fact that many people do pronounce it with the r first, and even spell it that way (do search on this board for 'marscapone', suggest that something else is going on. Did one person make a mistake, and everyone copy them? Or is the 'r' first version easier to say in English? A strict grammarian would say that is wrong, slap your hand, and move on to the next error. A modern linguist might want to dig further, looking for regional patterns, or wondering it there are other words which exhibit the same sort of switch. I have no idea when I first read or heard of this cheese, but both pronunciations sound equally valid to me. In fact, if I was in a setting where I had to quickly choose one without much thought, most likely I'd choose 'marscapone'. There's just something awkward about 'mas-car' sequence. The only word with similar spelling that I found in the dictionary is 'mascara'. 'mascara' is derived from the Spanish word for mask. The spelling is the same (except for an accent symbol on first 'a'), but the English pronunciation is quite different. Since I know how it is really pronounced in Spanish, may I should start complaining when people use the common English version. :) And the dictionary traces the Spanish back to the Italian 'maschera' (same as the Lodigian cheese, except for the 'p'). How about a new pronunciation for the cheese: "mas-ker'-pa" ? Mon Mar 09 18:42:18 -0700 2009 4488920 12139 paulj 4 4489423 Oh, no, so then the Spanish have been mispronouncing the Italian "maschera" all this time?! Someone should really educate them on how it ought to be said; and spelled. On the topic of mascarpone, I checked the price of a small tub of it in my grocery store recently. The stuff was six bucks. I could get the same amount of cream cheese for a fourth of the price. And perhaps I'm missing something, but mascarpone tastes pretty bland considering the price. Mon Mar 09 19:46:24 -0700 2009 4489237 106932 Agent Orange 5 4489542 I found recipe that just added lemon juice or cream of tarter solution to hot cream (185F), kept it at that temperature for a bit, and then cooled it overnight, followed by draining in cheesecloth. Mon Mar 09 20:22:07 -0700 2009 4489423 12139 paulj 5 4490277 i find it has a much fresher brighter flavor and texture than cream cheese; cream cheese is denser and has a sour note not found in mascarpone Tue Mar 10 06:25:37 -0700 2009 4489423 135229 thew 4 4489898 I'm sorry but while I don't believe everyone cares enough to be sure they put the letters in the right places when they say them, I do believe that excusing that by romaticizing such errors as simply the study of language is to obscure the underlying issue. The study of words that change by continued incorrect use is not, in my humble opinion, a justification of it. I would submit to you that, in this particular case, 'mascarpone' is not an easy word to say if you aren't careful, so people get the sounds reversed and then spell it they way they think it should be. That doesn't make it right. To turn what really starts as linguistic laziness (there I go again) into an academic curiosity seems to suggest that it's OK for a language to be corrupted that way. A few words here and there aren't that big of a concern, but then the slope gets slipperier and slipperier. Dictionaries can add 'nucular' as an accepted PRONUNICATION of 'nuclear' all they want. To accept the 'n-u-c-u-l-a-r' spelling is a whole different matter. Mon Mar 09 23:18:20 -0700 2009 4489237 11405 Midlife 4 4500660 ma/scar/po/ne is Italian mar/sca/pone (3 syllables) is ok. wrong, but it rolls off alright. mar/sca/po/ne is the one that is clearly wrong. Fri Mar 13 05:33:40 -0700 2009 4489237 74905 jaykayen 5 4501625 You're kidding, right? Fri Mar 13 10:30:01 -0700 2009 4500660 11405 Midlife 6 4501930 That's right, Midlife. If it were spelled "Marscapone" it would be pronounced mar/sca/po/ne. Mar/sca/pone is just dragging thoses fingernails across the blackboard one more time. Fri Mar 13 11:49:13 -0700 2009 4501625 34558 roxlet 7 4501996 I DO agree that using the correct Italian pronunciation is clearly wrong with the R in the wrong place, but I'm saying it's unacceptable no matter how you say it. jaykayen said mar/sca/pone is OK, but wrong. That's like saying it's OK to say nucular so long as you sound like an English-speaker. I'm probably just digging in my OCD heels here but I don't agree that a mis-spelled and mis-spoken Italian word is OK if you sound like you know what you're saying. Maybe I've missed the point. Fri Mar 13 12:05:38 -0700 2009 4501930 11405 Midlife 8 4502221 What's the statute of limitations on mispronunciations? In other words, how long does a mispronunciation (and spelling) have to be around before it becomes acceptable? Fri Mar 13 13:06:30 -0700 2009 4501996 12139 paulj 8 4502229 Exactly--an R in the wrong place, is an R in the wrong place regardless of your language. I guess it could be more forgiveable to say mascar pone, if you were anglacizing, vs marcarpony it but not mar sca pone. Fri Mar 13 13:07:32 -0700 2009 4501996 39874 chowser 8 4502348 I don't disagree -- notice my use of the subjuctive: I said if it WERE spelled marscapone, which clearly it is not! Fri Mar 13 13:35:41 -0700 2009 4501996 34558 roxlet 8 4503524 I'm saying that whether one knows how to pronounce Italian words might influence how you think it should be pronounced. And you got my point almost right. Language is always changing. I'm not going to harangue on people who haven't heard the correct pronunciations of mozzarella, orechiette, espresso... pretty much everything on an Italian menu would be pronounced wrong by an American. Like spaghetti! Americans don't say spagheTTi, they say spagedi. I'm lucky to have an Italian boyfriend and be a CH'er. Fri Mar 13 21:39:08 -0700 2009 4501996 74905 jaykayen 9 4504016 I'm lucky to be an Italian and a CH'er... Sat Mar 14 07:29:03 -0700 2009 4503524 34558 roxlet 1 4490290 How about 'Expresso'? What? There is not an X sound anywhere in the word! Also, how do YOU say the word 'Almond'? Tue Mar 10 06:30:15 -0700 2009 4470244 14093 Melanie 2 4490451 almond - with the l salmon - no l (kinda like christmas) salmond - ???? Tue Mar 10 07:29:26 -0700 2009 4490290 135229 thew 2 4490750 Melanie, thank you for bringing that up. i forgot about "expresso" - drives me nuts. Tue Mar 10 08:56:14 -0700 2009 4490290 103920 goodhealthgourmet 3 4490950 No problem, goodhealthgourmet. The summer after my first year of college, I worked at a Starbucks and the girl at the register would continuously call out 'triple expresso' 'single expresso', etc. to those of us working at the bar, even after we told her how it was pronounced. Drove me nuts. Tue Mar 10 09:45:40 -0700 2009 4490750 14093 Melanie 4 4490966 every time a restaurant server asks, after a meal, if i'd like "an expresso, perhaps?" i'm always tempted to say, "no thanks, but i'd love an espresso." ;) Tue Mar 10 09:49:13 -0700 2009 4490950 103920 goodhealthgourmet 5 4505960 I've done that. Does that make me a jerk? Sat Mar 14 22:32:42 -0700 2009 4490966 119807 Alfred G 6 4506522 perhaps - i guess it depends who you ask. personally, i'd laugh. anyway, if the server realized *why* you did it and corrected his or her pronunciation going forward, then it was worth it ;) Sun Mar 15 08:46:15 -0700 2009 4505960 103920 goodhealthgourmet 2 4491190 "some dictionaries now accept both pronunciation and spelling as Standard. Be aware, though, that some conservative users of Standard English accept only espresso " The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. 1993 http://www.bartleby.com/68/76/2276.html Tue Mar 10 10:48:04 -0700 2009 4490290 12139 paulj 3 4491336 You sortof have to believe that the 'x' variant is excused as 'acceptable' to facilitate communication (so that people know what others mean when they use it). The conservative (maybe anal, but certainly logical) side of me wants to say that a change in a language can't be OK simply because people misuse it. Makes me wonder what the true purpose of these dictionaries is. Are they there to record common usages or to serve as a reference for education..... or both. The Bartleby citation does help with a perspective on that. It explains exactly what the reality is regarding the variations. But.......... who gets to decide when an incorrect spelling/pronunciation becomes 'valid'. Looks like there is more than one ultimate 'decider'. Tue Mar 10 11:22:58 -0700 2009 4491190 11405 Midlife 4 4491433 There was a time when I corrected relatives who used the 'ex'. Then I got to listening for the word on TV (mainly FN), and kept hearing the 'x'. So I backed off. So when people make strong pronouncements about 'espresso' (and other words) I wonder, how do they know? Are they just being anal in following the spelling, or have they actually been in Italy and ordered the beverage for afternoon tea (?). As to purpose of dictionaries, think about how dictionaries are made for previously unwritten languages. The compiler has to collect copious notes about words that he hears - the pronunciation(s), variations, usage patterns. Native speakers may or may not be able to give a definition. Without using a dictionary or synonyms, how would you define a word like 'love'? At some point or other English dictionary compilers had go through the same process. Modern dictionaries have evolved from those earlier ones. I doubt if Noah Webster had 'espresso' in his first edition. This quote from the Wiki article on Webster is interesting: "His most important improvement, he claimed, was to rescue "our native tongue" from "the clamor of pedantry" that surrounded English grammar and pronunciation. He complained that the English language had been corrupted by the British aristocracy, which set its own standard for proper spelling and pronunciation. Webster rejected the notion that the study of Greek and Latin must precede the study of English grammar. The appropriate standard for the American language, argued Webster, was, "the same republican principles as American civil and ecclesiastical constitutions", which meant that the people-at-large must control the language; popular sovereignty in government must be accompanied by popular usage in language." Tue Mar 10 11:45:26 -0700 2009 4491336 12139 paulj 4 4491562 and yet we all use the word terrific to mean good and not terrifying. Tue Mar 10 12:11:40 -0700 2009 4491336 135229 thew 5 4491684 Take a look at the Great Vowel Shift http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift to learn how standardization has made life more difficult for us - I have in mind the peculiarities of the English spelling system. Tue Mar 10 12:36:50 -0700 2009 4491562 12139 paulj 6 4491761 Which begs the question....why isn't phonetics spelled like it sounds? :-) Tue Mar 10 12:54:33 -0700 2009 4491684 251167 billieboy 7 4491848 In modern linguistics, phonetics refers to the study the sounds of various languages. They have come up with a detailed way of transcribing those sounds, the International Phonetic Alphabet. "Among the symbols of the IPA, 107 represent consonants and vowels, 31 are diacritics that are used to further specify these sounds, and 19 are used to indicate such qualities as length, tone, stress, and intonation." Phonology is the study of the sounds as used in a particular language. In particular it tries to identify the limited set of sounds that a speaker recognize (typically 20 to 40). That differs from language to language. For English speakers the difference between b and v is much clearer than it is for Spanish speakers. Same for r and l in Chinese. But many Indian languages distinguish between a 'b' and 'bh', which you probably can't hear. Most modern writing systems try to accurately represent the spoken language, using letters to represent those phonemes that the speakers recognize. Problems arise when the writing system is modeled after that of another language (Greek, Latin and French in the case of English), or the language changes after the writing is standardized, or when borrowing words from other languages. Many of these Chow threads have to do with the spelling and pronunciation of borrowed Italian words. Tue Mar 10 13:17:38 -0700 2009 4491761 12139 paulj 8 4491871 To tie this back to another part of this topic: Are you saying that 'maRscapone' could become the American English word for the Italian 'MascaRpone'...... and that linguists shouldn't be concerned about that? It's OK to change the spelling of a word because it's just the way people seem to spell it in another language? I guess that's true, but it seems to be a shame on a number of levels. Tue Mar 10 13:23:12 -0700 2009 4491848 11405 Midlife 9 4492056 There is no regulator of the English language, written or spoken. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_language_regulators What is your definition of linguist? In the Wiki article, linguistics is 'the scientific approach to the study of language'. As such, it is more descriptive and prescriptive (what is versus what should be). I'm not sure if there is a good name for an individual who practices linguistic prescription - grammarian? Tue Mar 10 14:09:45 -0700 2009 4491871 12139 paulj 10 4492108 I'm not sure if your post is in response to mine directly above it but you seem to be saying usage is whatever it is. At the risk of repeating myself: "I guess that's true, but it seems to be a shame on a number of levels." Tue Mar 10 14:19:45 -0700 2009 4492056 11405 Midlife 6 4493253 studied linguistic anthropology a million years ago. i'm there Tue Mar 10 21:18:16 -0700 2009 4491684 135229 thew 4 4542218 Didn't you mean to say "disconcerning"? ;) adam Thu Mar 26 18:26:18 -0700 2009 4509080 154787 adamshoe 5 4544569 Disconcerting is correct. Fri Mar 27 14:01:20 -0700 2009 4542218 19782 Full tummy 6 4544994 My attempt at sarcasm was obviously misconscrewed.... adam Fri Mar 27 16:33:12 -0700 2009 4544569 154787 adamshoe 7 4545158 Haha!!! Sorry... Fri Mar 27 17:36:45 -0700 2009 4544994 19782 Full tummy 7 4545435 How bout this for misconscrewed?! ;) I'm no Paula Deen fan, but in the few seconds I heard her voice before changing the channel earlier today, she announced that she'd be making "room-a-lod sauce"...a far cry from rémoulade, and as that word already means sauce isn't that redundant (like saying you need to hit the "ATM machine!")? I know--we can't help everyone. ;) Fri Mar 27 20:07:34 -0700 2009 4544994 249664 kattyeyes 8 4545458 ever heard Emeril pronounce Sriracha? i *know* it's not the simplest of words, but suh-RAH-chee? come on. Fri Mar 27 20:19:40 -0700 2009 4545435 103920 goodhealthgourmet 9 4545470 I haven't, but there would be a fairly lengthy list of words he says that really dumbfound me. ;) I guess it's fair to say those words dumbfound him as well! HA HA! Fri Mar 27 20:25:12 -0700 2009 4545458 249664 kattyeyes 10 4545887 the emerilism that makes me craziest isn't even mispronounciation - it's "now start to begin to...." Sat Mar 28 05:23:54 -0700 2009 4545470 135229 thew 11 4546171 Emerilisms are plentiful enough to warrant their own thread. ;) Sat Mar 28 08:27:05 -0700 2009 4545887 249664 kattyeyes 12 4562762 Emerilisms continued (we're watching now): Al-munds (as in you can call me Al with a munds at the end) "I've gut..." for "I've got..." He shares this accent with one of my former teachers. They must be from the same neck of the woods. Thu Apr 02 17:58:02 -0700 2009 4546171 249664 kattyeyes 3 4504732 1993!?! Certainly by now, 16 years down the road, with the meteoric rise of the coffee bar culture, the 'standard' has moved more towards "espresso" and away from "expresso"? Sat Mar 14 12:58:45 -0700 2009 4491190 120264 joc1234 1 4500167 Why would Americans have a hard time saying "mascarpone"? They manage to pronounce Nascar just fine. Thu Mar 12 21:02:06 -0700 2009 4470244 13722 small h 2 4500189 that isn't pronounced Narsca? Thu Mar 12 21:13:28 -0700 2009 4500167 135229 thew 2 4500267 Good one !!!!! Thu Mar 12 21:44:10 -0700 2009 4500167 251167 billieboy 2 4500292 Does adding an accented 'Pon' syllable alter that? Thu Mar 12 21:57:06 -0700 2009 4500167 12139 paulj 3 4502231 Nascarpony is the pre-automobile version.;-) Fri Mar 13 13:08:27 -0700 2009 4500292 39874 chowser 1 4502283 The OED lists the irregular spellings "marscapone" and "mascherone", both going back to the 1900s. (Did I just write "the 1900s"??? I mean the 20th century.) The confusion between "masca-" and "marsca-" is pretty easy to explain, but I don't get the feeling people are that interested in understanding it, just venting about it. You might enjoy knowing, however, that the original word may* be derived from a Latin verb "manuscarpere" meaning "to masturbate". Cf. the Southern Italian expression "far ricotta"… Please think about this the next time you spoon a big glob of mascarpone into your mouth. *"M. Cortelazzo and P. Zolli (Diz. Etimol. della Lingua Italiana, 1983) express some reservations about this theory." Fri Mar 13 13:21:53 -0700 2009 4470244 149250 DeppityDawg 2 4502369 Too much information :-) Fri Mar 13 13:40:27 -0700 2009 4502283 251167 billieboy 1 4502968 Ok, what about a distinctly homegrown example? Vidalia. I die every time Bobby Flay says this word. It's not ved-AHHHH-lia -- now that's TRULY pretentious. "Jeeves, bring me some ved-AHHH-lias." No. Please. Its not British; it's not high falutin', upper class or posh. Vidalia onions come from Vidalia, Georgia, and you say it vy-DAYL-ya. Like a good South Georgia redneck. (We can manage to say Illinois without the S and Tucson without the C -- well, some of us.) He's another one who can't seem to say chipotle -- it always comes out chip-o-ta-lay. At least he doesn't invert the letters. Fri Mar 13 17:09:55 -0700 2009 4470244 221979 _emilie_ 1 4504738 Honestly I say a few words wrong ... I still can't pronounce ammonia and chipolte I still say wrong. I think if they know what it is and can cook with it. I care less. I'm not concerned about their dialect, I'm concerned about their cooking. Is that really that so important even for a professional. Grant it, they should know but maybe they just have a hard time to pronounce it right. Ammonia is not hard but I can not say it. Why let it bother you. Sat Mar 14 13:01:55 -0700 2009 4470244 232829 kchurchill5 1 4504744 I just ate at Scarpetta (in NYC) and they had "marscapone" on the menu. I was amazed. I see "proscuitto" on menus far too often. Mmmmmm, proskweeto! Sat Mar 14 13:03:14 -0700 2009 4470244 120264 joc1234 2 4504825 Yup, it's right there, in the description of the olive oil cake: http://www.scarpettanyc.com/dolce.html "OLIVE OIL CAKE marscapone cream, citrus salad & tangerine sorbet" Sat Mar 14 13:41:54 -0700 2009 4504744 12139 paulj 3 4505419 My hair's on fire. Sat Mar 14 17:45:42 -0700 2009 4504825 34558 roxlet 1 4504756 When US descendants of 19th and 20th century Italian immigrants, who have grown up speaking "Americanized" Italian (mortadell, rigot, mozzarell, etcetera) visit Italy, do they add the dropped vowels back? Or are they met with quizzical stares (except, presumably, in Sicily)? Sat Mar 14 13:08:47 -0700 2009 4470244 120264 joc1234 2 4506057 If they go back to Naples, where something like this practice is common, perhaps, but not much luck elsewhere. When I visit my Calabrian cousins, I try to speak a generally standardized Italian, though it gets real clear I'm not a native speaker. My cousins will move in and out of dialect, and I can, also, to some degree--when I shop in their small town, I've no hestitation asking for, say, petrusino (parsley, dialect) rather than prezzemolo (same, standard). And while it's fun and emotional to join them in what was once my family's everyday talk in Brooklyn, even dialect evolves, and I risk sounding like an oddball time traveller if I thought I could get by sounding like my grandfather. I never assumed anyone would know easily the rigott/gapagool NY slang. Sun Mar 15 00:37:57 -0700 2009 4504756 249467 bob96 1 4506471 On the ICA episode that played last night - Italian cheese - Mario pronounced mascarpone with the full Italian accent and inflection. Kevin did the same but without the flair. Alton got the r & s right, but left the final e silent (following common English spelling conventions). Sun Mar 15 08:26:55 -0700 2009 4470244 12139 paulj 2 4506523 LOL - i was purposely listening for that last night because of this thread! Sun Mar 15 08:47:57 -0700 2009 4506471 103920 goodhealthgourmet 1 4507831 Some of this can be regional too. In St. Louis they pronounce mostaciolli as muscacholli. Drove me nuts for years, as Chicago clearly pronounced it as mostaciolli. Sun Mar 15 18:02:13 -0700 2009 4470244 222865 FoodChic 2 4507898 I had some contact with the Italian-American community in Chicago, mainly in the near west suburbs, and never heard the Sicilian derived speech that I've read about on this forum (east coast). I can't say there wasn't any of it, since my contact was superficial, in groceries and restaurants, but sure wasn't obvious. Sun Mar 15 18:33:31 -0700 2009 4507831 12139 paulj 1 4511495 This is the funniest thread. Can't say I've heard anyone say mascrapone or some such configuration (haha) or chipolte... But, I must admit to being mildly irritated by Giada's over-Italianization---at least, that's what I took it to be... My husband always says "al don tay", and I think that's just incorrect. It's not French, I tell him. Am I right? It should be pronounced "al den tay"???? Mon Mar 16 19:32:55 -0700 2009 4470244 19782 Full tummy 2 4511963 Seems like being mildly irritated by over-emphasized but correct pronunciation is 180 degrees opposite being irritated by MISpronunciation. Actually, 158 posts into this and I'm thinking it's pretty silly to be irritated very much by either. If I'm going to pick sides, though, I'll pick MISpronunciation to complain about. Can't always control my anal side. We can't all be expected to speak other languages like natives, and there are certainly regional variances, but we should really try to get it right. It shows respect for the original. I'm not an expert but I'd say it was "aHl den tay". Mon Mar 16 23:43:58 -0700 2009 4511495 11405 Midlife 1 4514493 i just saw a post on the Manhattan board that reminded me of another common one that irks me - bastardization of both the spelling and pronunciation of mesclun, as in mesclun greens. i often see it spelled as mescalin[e] on signs, menus, and here on CH, and i've heard people pronounce it as if it's spelled that way as well (mes-kuh-lin). it's lettuce, people, not a hallucinogen. Tue Mar 17 16:44:57 -0700 2009 4470244 103920 goodhealthgourmet 2 4514517 Is it ok to add 'greens' to that, or does 'mesclun' already mean 'a mixture of young greens'? Why use the foreign word in the first place? The problem with most of these words is that people start using them based on a few spotty examples, such as on the label of product, or a recipe or menu, often without hearing them pronounced, or properly defined. I could point to a lot of words that I learned that way, and got wrong to one degree or other. For some time I pronounced the hard Mexican cheese 'cojita', even though it is clearly spell differently. I first saw 'bruscheta' on a container of basil-tomato salsa. I don't recall whether it was labeled just 'bruscheta' or 'bruscheta topping'. Regardless, I initially associated the word with the topping, not the bread. I bet that even the pickiest poster on this thread has mispronounced and misused words that he first learned in this informal manner. Tue Mar 17 16:52:45 -0700 2009 4514493 12139 paulj 3 4514634 i don't add "greens" (it is superfluous) but it's so often said that way that i thought it best to include it to clarify what i was talking about. i'm not saying i've never mispronounced a word before. but as you pointed out, people pick up certain terms from numerous sources, not all of which are correct. so unfortunately, unless some big-mouth (like me) decides to point out the error and offer the correct pronunciation and/or spelling, they'll perpetuate the incorrect usage. personally, i'd prefer to have someone correct me rather than allow me to remain unaware & continue to make the mistake. Tue Mar 17 17:29:40 -0700 2009 4514517 103920 goodhealthgourmet 4 4514658 Just yesterday I was in our local supermarket looking for ciabata bread. I know they usually carry it, but non on the shelf. I asked the lovely lady if they had any Chee-a-bata and she said "do you mean keeb-a-ta"? I just said....yes :-) Tue Mar 17 17:39:05 -0700 2009 4514634 251167 billieboy 5 4514775 ok, don't hate me for saying it, but neither of you was correct...ciabatta is pronounced chuh-BAH-tah or chuh-BAT-uh Tue Mar 17 18:19:58 -0700 2009 4514658 103920 goodhealthgourmet 6 4514787 Thanks, now I know. It is not easy with foreign words if you have only read them and never ever heard them spoken. Oh the joys of living in a hick town. :-) Tue Mar 17 18:25:54 -0700 2009 4514775 251167 billieboy 7 4514817 it's not just a "hick town" thing, i hear people make these mistakes in NY & LA all the time! the good news is that you have CH - if you ever wonder about whether you've got it right, you can always ask here :) Tue Mar 17 18:36:57 -0700 2009 4514787 103920 goodhealthgourmet 8 4514839 It's OK. Nobody in my town would know the difference anyway, including me. :-) Tue Mar 17 18:45:39 -0700 2009 4514817 251167 billieboy 6 4515778 Thank you!!! I just hate the Chee-b-a-ta pronunciation. That one just drives me up a wall. Wed Mar 18 06:51:20 -0700 2009 4514775 222865 FoodChic 6 4515960 The latter of your alternate pronunciations is the more accurate. In Italian, a double consonant indicates a more emphasized enunciation. Not sure how to convey this, but when your tongue is pressed to the roof of your mouth to pronounce the "t" sound, it stays there for a millisecond, then drops as you forcibly expell the air along with the "uh" sound. The vowel sound that follows any doubled consonant should burst out of the mouth, whereas vowels following a single consonant (or combination, like "st", which does not duplicate consonants) just flows out without any extra force. Have I muddied the waters even further? Wed Mar 18 07:53:33 -0700 2009 4514775 159317 greygarious 7 4516030 Ah...I understand now how to pronounce it perfectly.....Slipper Bread :-) Wed Mar 18 08:09:56 -0700 2009 4515960 251167 billieboy 8 4516405 What we need in English is a prestigious language academy that can control the influx of unpronounceable foreign words! Someone who can stand up for the purity of the English language. Surely there are perfectly good English phrases for all these items - slipper bread, mixed young greens, smoked hot peppers, the cream cheese used in that trifle made with coffee, etc :) Wed Mar 18 09:51:50 -0700 2009 4516030 12139 paulj 1 4515421 Slightly off topic, because it's not food, but I worked with a man who pronounced minimum as miMiNum. Which to me seems so much harder to say. I always wondered if he pronounced aluminum as aluNiMum. Wed Mar 18 00:22:48 -0700 2009 4470244 12947 gmm 2 4517677 Funny . . . aluNiMum sounds great! Wed Mar 18 16:05:04 -0700 2009 4515421 119807 Alfred G 3 4535555 Don't we all have that already? It goes with alunidad!!! Tue Mar 24 20:23:34 -0700 2009 4517677 19782 Full tummy 2 4539022 What about aluminium? I have heard people pronounce it that way, but it seems wrong. Wed Mar 25 20:13:41 -0700 2009 4515421 19782 Full tummy 3 4539098 I think its spelled that way in British English as well as pronounced that way. It's just a variant. Wed Mar 25 20:38:59 -0700 2009 4539022 107671 queencru 4 4539311 Yes, queencru, it's legitimate British English. Wed Mar 25 23:10:07 -0700 2009 4539098 16734 Lizard 1 4535478 gotta bring up this one as i'm catching up on my DVR recordings (currently watching Flay vs Finch in ICA Battle Cabbage). Alton Brown always pronounces miso as "mee-sü" and it makes me want to scream. Tue Mar 24 19:50:03 -0700 2009 4470244 103920 goodhealthgourmet 2 4535662 Are you taking issue with the details of his final 'o'? Tue Mar 24 21:16:01 -0700 2009 4535478 12139 paulj 3 4536631 yep. for illustrative purposes, the closest phonetic spelling of his pronunciation would be mee-soo or mee-sue. Wed Mar 25 08:42:39 -0700 2009 4535662 103920 goodhealthgourmet 4 4536839 So what's the quality of the final 'o' in Japanese? As best I can tell from a limited search, it is like the pure Spanish 'o', not the diphthong that English speakers use. Wed Mar 25 09:38:13 -0700 2009 4536631 12139 paulj 5 4538972 The Japanese vowel sounds are very similar to Spanish, but some words will hold a vowel for two counts while others hold it for one. Miso has a one-count "o" sound, while Tokyo has two two-count "o" sounds. Unfortunately that gets lost when the words are put into the Roman alphabet because it's too confusing for English speakers to see "oo" or "ou" for long "o" sounds. Wed Mar 25 19:55:37 -0700 2009 4536839 107671 queencru 1 4539245 OP: I don't think you are being petty. I also am amazed that people can't pronounce simple words, and if the word is new to you, practice it a few times and get it right can't you? :) Another example: Folks, basmati rice is not pronounced "busMAHti". It's "BAHSmuti" with a soft "t" Basmati (or shall I write baasmati) means queen of fragrance, while busMAHti doeesn't mean anything ...... Wed Mar 25 22:06:06 -0700 2009 4470244 116187 Rasam 2 4539285 I think you expect too much of people. I suspect that many people who say 'marscapone' (switched r and silent e), do so because that is how they have hear others pronounce it. They may not have seen the word in print, or even if they have, they may not have paid attention to the discrepancy between what they've been saying and what they see. In English we are quite used to seeing things spelled in unusual ways. So unless we have special reason to dig further we stick with the familiar. As for your example. I've seen 'basmati' in print for many years. I don't think I've ever hear an Indian pronounce it. So the best that I can do is pronounce according to normal English spelling conventions. When I first read your post I thought I was saying in the first 'wrong' way, but the more I listen to myself say it, the closer it sounds to your second version. But there's always some uncertainty in these written pronunciation guides. It has been a long time since I practiced phonetic transcription and use. I even studied Urdu for a semester, though that does not help me in this case. Is the pronunciation of this word constant across India and Pakistan, or are there variations? Also keep in mind that if we are too picky about how others pronounce words, they may choose to avoid those words entirely. Instead of risking ridicule they might just talk about Indian rice, Italian cream cheese, or mixed greens. Wed Mar 25 22:46:06 -0700 2009 4539245 12139 paulj 3 4539575 I think it's a bit much to expect people to look up pronunciation guides for every language, especially the ones that do not use a Roman alphabet. A lot of times it's because there really are no sounds like it in English, or because a certain spelling would just cause confusion. Thu Mar 26 05:41:33 -0700 2009 4539285 107671 queencru 3 4539618 I disagree that accurate pronunciation is expecting too much: it's hardly a superhuman feat. All one needs is the attitude that it's a worthy effort rather than "It's too difficult for us folks, we'll say it how we want." And in other situations non-native speakers of English get plenty of flak for 'accents' (well, EVERYONE has an accent relative to each other) or lack of knowledge of words or pronunciations. So those standards exist for many words other than food words. Re regional variations in the pronunciation of baasmati: both Urdu, Hindi, and most other sub-continental languages are phonetic, and what you see is what you say. The scripts write: b ah s m uh t ee. There is no scope to mix up uh and ah sounds in these languages (different letters of the alphabet) so there's no regional variation either in spelling or pronunciation. I've lived in a lot of these regions and never heard any different way of saying it. Baasmati = baas (fragrance) + (mati) queen, i.e. two simple one syllable words are joined together. Not much scope for variation there. While all that may be TMI for non native speakers, the bottom line is that 'baasmati' is known as the standard pronunciation across possible regions, while 'busmahti' makes no sense. If people just say "Indian rice", then they'll get asked "which kind"; same as if they say "pasta" instead of which kind. ETA: just saw paulj's post: nowadays, with Internet etc. there are lots of resources to find accurate pronunciations even if you can't find a native speaker to ask. Thu Mar 26 05:58:55 -0700 2009 4539285 116187 Rasam 4 4539634 If you've never heard a native speaker say a word correctly, how would you possibly know you are saying it wrong? I always get annoyed at the pronunciation of "karaoke" but I am not going to spend my time worrying about it. No one says it correctly in the US, so I can't really hold people up to a standard of knowing how it's supposed to sound. It just doesn't make sense. In some cases, we don't even know what words have been brought in from other languages. I learned pretty quickly when I moved to Japan that if I expected a native pronunciation of English words, or even if I tried to pronounce English words with a native accent, I'd get nowhere. In many cases, people can't even hear the differences if they have not been brought up with certain sounds. It's not necessarily that it is too difficult, it is that it can take years of training in order to be able to train yourself around it. For instance, I had a Japanese friend who lived in London for 5 years. He could say R and L sounds correctly because he trained himself how to do it, but he could never hear the differences. Thu Mar 26 06:03:42 -0700 2009 4539618 107671 queencru 5 4541043 I'm with you... I don't correct the Carry-oakie people. Thu Mar 26 12:21:24 -0700 2009 4539634 28006 Jennalynn 4 4540152 Few English speakers know that basmati has a meaning other than being the name of a type of rice, or that it is composed of two words. So the fact that one pronunciation means something in Sanskrit derived languages, and the other does not, is of no help when choosing the pronunciation. Thu Mar 26 08:41:38 -0700 2009 4539618 12139 paulj 5 4540500 Sheesh paulj: I specifically said that all that information was TMI for the average person, but was only in answer to your query on regional variations etc. If you hadn't asked, I wouldn't have gone into any of that detail. You had also said you'd learnt Urdu for a semester, so presumably you have some interest in languages. Pardon me if I was mistaken. I know that if I had a question about pronunciation in a language I don't know, this kind of detail would help me remember. Queencru: IMO in today's globalized eating world, part of learning about a new ingredient is also learning it's name (and how to say it). There's a difference between knowing and trying to say something correctly (at least trying, even if one cannot execute perfectly), and just blowing it off as unimportant. There's web sites that help you hear new words, if you don't know a speaker. Through this thread, it seems there is another way that people are different (tasters vs non tasters; foodies vs not, etc.): those who try to pronounce right, and those who don't care. Thu Mar 26 10:06:32 -0700 2009 4540152 116187 Rasam 6 4542454 Rasam, sadly you're exactly right not just in this thread but in life itself...you summed it up very nicely in your last paragraph. Sad, but true. Along those lines, I only learned after eating pho for years that it's not a homonym of foe, but is more like "fuh"...thus, why there is a chain of Vietnamese restaurant named What the Pho? and why it's funny! http://www.whatthepho.net/ On a more upbeat note (I know your name isn't actually Rasam, but)...I had a bowl of rasam with dinner tonight. I had never eaten it before. Who knew there was an Indian version of hot and sour soup? I did not, but you're hot stuff, Rasam! ;) Thu Mar 26 19:48:15 -0700 2009 4540500 249664 kattyeyes 6 4542573 This uniformity in the word 'basmati' across Indian regions, seems to fit with the idea that the best rice of this type is grown in a limited area in the NW corner of the subcontinent. It seems to be a local variety that has gained a huge reputation across India and internationally. I wonder when it spread. Did it spread to places like Hyderabad with biryani and Mughal army? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyderabadi_biryani In contrast, I suspect that food items which have been grown and used locally across India for centuries have local names, or at least local variations in pronunciation. Milk and yogurt might fall in that category. Thu Mar 26 20:34:23 -0700 2009 4540500 12139 paulj 4 4540467 Did you also know that "rice" is not originally an English word? No it didn't come from old Germanic across the North Sea. We got it from the Italian "riso" several hundred years ago. Perhaps we should add back the 'o', start trilling the r, and pronouncing a voiced "z" when we talk about this staple grain. In fact, since over half of our vocabulary in English comes from Norman French, Latin, Greek, and other European languages should we also imitate the "correct" pronunciations for all of those words too? I think we should be grateful that it is so easy to find basmati rice here in the States (or wherever in the English-speaking-HIndi-butchering part of the world you live.) When it becomes so common on grocery shelves, kitchen pantries, and dinner tables across the country that my Aunt Sue is serving it with her field peas instead old Uncle Ben's, hasn't it then become an English word? Thu Mar 26 09:56:12 -0700 2009 4539618 106932 Agent Orange 1 4539308 Food Network has a food encyclopedia that includes a pronunciation guide for many words http://web.foodnetwork.com/food/web/encyclopedia/termdetail/0,7770,3970,00.html Wed Mar 25 23:08:31 -0700 2009 4470244 12139 paulj 2 4540578 well then Alton Brown should take a look and correct his pronunciation of miso! http://web.foodnetwork.com/food/web/encyclopedia/termdetail/0,7770,4052,00.html Thu Mar 26 10:33:06 -0700 2009 4539308 103920 goodhealthgourmet 1 4542053 I feel this way when I hear Martha Steward pronounce marinade MAREH NAHD and not MARIN AID. It's like nails against a chalk board. You know she totally does to be hoity. I realize that she uses the french pronunciation, but give me a break- over pronunciation is a sign of so wanting to be something more... Thu Mar 26 17:21:48 -0700 2009 4470244 222865 FoodChic 2 4542265 Now, don't get me wrong, I love Martha too. Grew up in NJ like me; even get her magazine and occasionally watch her show, but the way she says "herbs" (hitting the "H") is so-o-o shudder invoking... C'mon Martha, you grew up Jewish in Nutley NJ...did ANYONE say "herbs" (as opposed to "urbs") ?? Not this Jewish lad.... adam Thu Mar 26 18:40:24 -0700 2009 4542053 154787 adamshoe 3 4542463 Well, Martha may have had a couple of *Uncle* Herbs (I had one myself), but other than that, I'm right there with you. Thu Mar 26 19:55:00 -0700 2009 4542265 249664 kattyeyes 4 4542506 Me too!! Uncle Herb & Aunt Pearl (R.I.P...) in Millburn, NJ.: Home of Wigler's Bakery who had the best rye bread and (drumroll....) chocolate pudding cake; kind of like a jelly roll but with puddin'!!! Ahh....good times. adam Thu Mar 26 20:10:35 -0700 2009 4542463 154787 adamshoe 3 4542548 <C'mon Martha, you grew up Jewish in Nutley NJ> File under "who cares," but Martha Stewart's maiden name is Kostyra. She's Polish Catholic. Which doesn't excuse pronouncing the "h" in herbs. I'm just sayin'. Thu Mar 26 20:26:33 -0700 2009 4542265 13722 small h 4 4568941 Maybe she had an "Uncle Erb"? '-) The "H"erb pronunciation is more stilted than "marinahde" . Considering the frequency of CH posts which say things like "how long should I marinade the steak?", I'll give her a pass. At least she knows that marinade is a noun, not a verb! Sun Apr 05 08:22:16 -0700 2009 4542548 159317 greygarious 1 4591622 Has anyone noticed how many people on CH spell "refrigerator" "refridgerator?" Mon Apr 13 10:51:36 -0700 2009 4470244 10814 sbp 2 4593932 I notice more often the shorthand--people write "frig" for what I have always written as "fridge"--I know how to spell refrigerator just fine, but when you shorthand it as "frig" it looks more like "what the frig" than, well, fridge. ;) Tue Apr 14 06:38:05 -0700 2009 4591622 249664 kattyeyes 3 4593969 I agree that "fridge" is appropriate shorthand (and probably derived from Frigidaire brand). But "refridgerator" just looks wrong. Tue Apr 14 06:49:56 -0700 2009 4593932 10814 sbp 4 4594024 You young whippersnappers with your newfangled words. In my day they were just called Ice Boxes :-) Tue Apr 14 07:01:11 -0700 2009 4593969 251167 billieboy 5 4594061 I know--because of my mom, I still refer to that wonderful graham crackers and pudding concoction as "icebox cake!" Tue Apr 14 07:13:13 -0700 2009 4594024 249664 kattyeyes 1 4717085 i'm not sure if anyone mentioned this already and i'm too tired to scroll through all 200+ posts to check, but something i just saw in another thread reminded me of this one so i hightailed it over here to vent :) am i the only one who's bothered by the fact that *so many* CHers misspell foie gras? and it's usually when they're raving about how much they *love* it. i've seen a number of variations, but the most common offender seems to be "fois." i personally don't eat it. never have, never will, yet it still hurts my eyes to see it spelled incorrectly. it's only four letters (okay, eight if you're using the complete term)...if you love it so much, learn how to spell it! ok, rant over. Tue May 26 18:25:26 -0700 2009 4470244 103920 goodhealthgourmet 2 4717181 Welcome to my nightmare, in which "pre-fix" is prominently featured. And be grateful it's not being spelled fwah grah. Hooked on Phonics! Tue May 26 19:04:27 -0700 2009 4717085 13722 small h 3 4717334 i'm with you on pre-fix, it's definitely cringe-worthy. BTW, if it also involves declarations about how flavors in a dish "compliment" one another, or complaints about difficulty choosing a restaurant because certain people in the group have finicky "palettes," then i'm pretty sure you & i are trapped in the same nightmare! Tue May 26 20:06:32 -0700 2009 4717181 103920 goodhealthgourmet 4 4718051 Same two also bug me! I can hear one flavor saying "Atta boy!" to another flavor, can't you? ;-) As for palettes, picturing the tongue and roof of your mouth with globs of paint on it all mixed together isn't too appetizing. Wed May 27 06:05:26 -0700 2009 4717334 10532 LindaWhit 4 4718590 Yep, those irritate me also. I know lots of people probably think, "heck, this is a casual, conversational medium, why be a stickler for correct grammar, spelling and usage?" Those are the people whose posts I generally disregard. Exceptions made for people who are obviously trying, but not fully comfortable writing in English. Wed May 27 08:58:41 -0700 2009 4717334 13722 small h 3 4717412 It's amazing how many times I have seen pre fix or pre fixe on restaurant sandwich boards and menus as I walk by. No wonder consumers can't get it right, if the restaurants selling it to them can't be bothered. Tue May 26 20:34:33 -0700 2009 4717181 10074 Caitlin McGrath 4 4719700 great point, Caitlin. if that's the only reference for some consumers, they really can't be expected to know any better! misspelled culinary terms at restaurants (whether on signage, specials boards or menus) are, IMO, inexcusable. if it's your business/industry you should show respect for the ingredients and techniques you employ by spelling them correctly. and if you're not sure, that's what reference books and editors are for. Wed May 27 14:05:29 -0700 2009 4717412 103920 goodhealthgourmet 2 4733569 I may have pointed this out before, but in the original French lyrics to "O Canada" ("et ta valeur, de foi trempée"), if you add an E to "foi", Canada's values are no longer steeped in faith, but in liver. Spelling matters! Mon Jun 01 15:06:02 -0700 2009 4717085 10811 Das Ubergeek 3 4865916 Even if you're a good speller, proofreading is important - on Nova Science Now next week, there will be a feature on studying the genes that influence taste perception. I just posted a new topic to that effect - when I went back to my profile page I saw it: "Taste testes on Nova Science Now".....a quicker click on the Edit button you'll never see! Adventurous eater or no, I wouldn't soon have lived that one down.... Thu Jul 16 18:35:37 -0700 2009 4733569 159317 greygarious 4 4865922 Well, it might have gotten a few more views, I'm sure! ;) Thu Jul 16 18:40:31 -0700 2009 4865916 249664 kattyeyes 1 4864759 Rather than a point of pretentiousness, this is probably a criticism of the opposite: I HATE the way Guy Fieri puts that extra syllable in "paprika," pronouncing it "pappa-RE-kuh." Talk about nails on the chalkboard. Shouldn't a chef and restaurateur know better? Thu Jul 16 12:08:52 -0700 2009 4470244 252189 h2Bn 2 4865904 Maybe he learned from Emeril--and, yes, that drives me nuts, too. Thu Jul 16 18:30:32 -0700 2009 4864759 249664 kattyeyes 3 4881172 I've not run across the mascarpone issue (just lucky I guess) but allow me to add a pet peeve: the permangulation of jalapeno (which I'm now adding to because I don't know how to do tildes on CH!). Not just whacky spellings, though they abound, but oh the mispronunciations. Wed Jul 22 11:09:18 -0700 2009 4865904 169233 grayelf 4 4891864 Emeril has never been able to that one. Probably covered above, but many more people have trouble with chipotle (pepper's version of nuclear). Sun Jul 26 12:41:33 -0700 2009 4881172 11405 Midlife