597976 Fri Feb 20 17:49:54 -0800 2009 18 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 4437637 I've finally started to roast coffee at home, small batches at a time. And yes, I will probably do it this way from now on however the answer to my question may come out. So here's the question: Green coffee beans "seems" cheaper by the pound in general, but IS it really cheaper? Green coffee beans are heavier than roasted beans, and so doesn't fill the same volume in a pound. After roasting the beans expand and are lighter from losing the moisture, but does anyone know how close a pound of green coffee beans will come to a pound of the same beans roasted? Or, I'll have to count the beans...Wait! Is this where that term "bean counter" came from?! p.s. any thoughts on whether one should de-gass the beans? Fri Feb 20 17:49:54 -0800 2009 10422 HLing 1 4437738 The power of google: 15-20% weight loss http://www.coffeeresearch.org/coffee/roasting.htm http://www.ambexroasters.com/pages/roast_calculator.jsp Fri Feb 20 18:37:28 -0800 2009 4437637 10169 StriperGuy 2 4440321 Although espresso and coffee is my main hot drink, before homeroasting I'd often end up throwing bags of beans away only b/c I wasn't able to finish them before I'd notice some staling. Although the availability of beans in 1/2 bags helps a lot, if I didn't brew every day I'd likely end up throwing some of the beans away. Effectively I was paying a 30% premium on my coffee for that alone. Now that I homeroast I only roast a batch size that I know I can readily handle. It's nice not being constrained to standardized batch sizes. Rarely do I ever end up throwing out homeroast beans, unless of course I get a dreaded roaster fire. As to post-roast aging of beans, definitely. I'll gladly use just roasted beans, especially if it were for brewing (as opposed to espresso). However there is no doubt that the bean needs days to settle. It gets a bit complicated, as I find that it depends on depth of roast, method of extraction, and sometimes other factors also needs to be considered. As a general rule, though, I like to let my beans rest around 1-2 days for normal brewing, and around 4 days for espresso. In general the espresso method of extraction tends to magnify both what is good and bad in a batch of coffee, and if not properly rested roast tastes will obscure any subtleties in the cup. I also agree with the point made earlier that lighter roasts tends to require more time to settle down. However very light roasts will need a very long time to settle, sometimes so long as to leave a very narrow window for actual consumption as the staling process is still underway. I find that the fruit and flower tastes and aromas of the better Dry Processed Ethiopians are very fragile and is easily overroasted. However I find that this characteristic develops sooner for a darker roast, but in a more diminished form. In a lighter roast I find that this quality is best preserved, though taking many more days post-roast to develop. With these beans going lighter turns into a game of dare, where slowing down the flavor development also tempts staling before one has a chance to consume it. As to storage, just keep your beans out of bright light and in an airtight container. I like to keep mine in vacuumed food storage containers, the kind that you can hook up to a vacuum sealer to remove any air. Just beware that whatever vessel you place your beans in, it will continue to outagas CO2. I find that I'll typically yield around 10 ounces after roasting 12 ounces of green. Sat Feb 21 19:27:29 -0800 2009 4437738 20300 cgfan 3 4442583 Wow! Thanks cgfan! You verbalized so well what I wouldn't have been able to in a million year about the many variables and the sense of adventures that comes with when you described the "narrow window" of time when the tasting experience will be at its peak; and that the "peak" doesn't really need to be reached the same way every time. Very cool. On the storage front, I'm keeping it simple. But you speaking of vacuum did remind me of my recent suspicion of the effect repeated vacuum-packing might have on the taste of things like tea leaves (my first love and still). More than once I've opened a can of vacuumed packed tea leaves with great anticipation and only to find that I first smell some strange metallic chemical, and then nothing. No tea fragrance! It didn't used to be like that at all. Then the most recent example was when a trusted tea source in China sent me high grade tea leaves in small single portion vacuum packs (to save on postage). I almost feel that by sucking all the air out, the leaves (in the 2 long months on the slow route) "suffocated". It's kind of sad, actually. Thinking back, I've never HAD a satisfying tea response when they give them out in this sample size. Could it be that vacuum pack (or is it a new way of vacuum-packing?) is the culprit? Another strange thing is that I've found that storing tea in glass jars in time gives it a somewhat generic scent (not sure over how long a period of time) so that any of the distinguishing characters of individual teas (unless it's flavored) is lost, at least by smell. So, I'm still looking for that special, but illusive ceramic container that I've heard people made that's breaths, but keeps out the outside odors and yet keeps the tea leaves (or coffee?) alive for a reasonable time. A while back I heard there was a Taiwanese artist who made them. I wonder if you've heard of it? (by the way, what should I beware of regarding the continous out-gassing of CO2?) Sun Feb 22 18:17:32 -0800 2009 4440321 10422 HLing 4 4442704 HLing - thanks for the good word! I too, drink tea, almost exclusively Oolongs that I buy through Ten Ren tea. Funny thing is that I never thought of vacuum packing my tea, but rather keep it in the foil laminated bags that Ten Ren puts their bulk tea into. Perhaps it's a good thing, given your experiences. As to CO2, there's really not too much to beware of, other than that the beans will naturally outgas CO2 in the days following roasting. The main idea is to keep air away from the beans. The vacuum canisters work well for me, and depending on how much of the canister is full of fresh-roasted beans, the vacuum will slowly weaken as CO2 escapes into the vacuum, sometimes to the point whereby the next day it has completely depressurized and had lost its seal. The nice part of one-way valve bags is that as the CO2 pressure builds up it automatically releases through the valve without letting any atmoshperic air inside. But really a simple ziploc-type bag will do too, so long as you suck all the air out. The CO2 production is heaviest in the first 24 hours after roasting. It will gradually become less and less an effect, until by the end of 5 days or so very little is being produced. Sun Feb 22 19:15:40 -0800 2009 4442583 20300 cgfan 1 4437816 Coffee beans lose weight during roasting, primarily due to moisture loss. Extremely light roasts may lose as little as 10% - 12% of their original weight; exceedingly dark roasts can lose as much as 25%. Usually, the figure is in between; around 15% - 17%. Whether this makes them more of less of a “bargain” depends on the price you pay for them, and how it compares to the roasted price. You should also figure in the energy cost of roasting, if you can calculate it accurately. BTW, most raw coffee beans are dried to between 10% and 12% moisture content (by weight) before shipment from origin. The moisture content usually remains fairly stable, but may be affected by storage conditions. Coffee beans can slowly lose moisture content when stored in very dry surroundings, or possibly gain some if stored in an extremely humid environment. Neither scenario is recommended. Although under certain circumstances some coffee beans can benefit from the “mellowing effect” of prolonged storage, most beans will simple fade and their flavor will be a pale shadow of what it once was after a year or more of storage. Coffee beans do “plump when you cook them.” Typically, they nearly double in volume, so their bulk density is indeed considerably reduced by the process. Regarding de-gassing, that is a matter of personal taste and brewing method. Having roasted coffee for many years, I find that the notion that coffee flavor is at its peak immediately after roasting is a misconception. In my experience, the flavor seems to shed a little “smokiness” from the roasting process and bloom and meld for a day or two after roasting, so the flavor is at its best around 36 – 48 hours after roasting. In addition, coffee taken directly from the roaster to an automatic drip brewer may overflow its brew-basket and leave dry pockets of un-infused grounds due to excessive gas (carbon dioxide) content released during brewing. Similarly, espresso brewed from extremely fresh coffee may be excessively foamy and frothy. This usually is not a problem in open-pot (e.g. French Press) or filter cone (e.g. Melitta) brewing. One can simply stir the grounds as they steep to insure proper wetting and a thorough infusion (but take care not to poke any holes in the filter). Have fun roasting, and happy brewing! Fri Feb 20 19:16:51 -0800 2009 4437637 34704 Luwak 2 4439732 I agree on the day or two after roasting for best flavor... I'm a "cowboy" homeroaster myself. I do it stovetop in a cast iron pan. I actually like the slightly varied roast it yields. I shoot for full city, but a few beans will end up near french roast while others are a bit on the light side. The final result is a very nice, complex cup, which I usually french press. Sat Feb 21 14:45:07 -0800 2009 4437816 10169 StriperGuy 3 4440199 Thanks everyone for your thoughts and tips on roasting! I guess I'm also I "cowboy" roaster with my cast iron and stove top, StriperGuy. I then use a manual stone grinder, (a Quern), and then the Aeropress. Scubadoo97, I think it was you who put the idea of home roasting into my head in the first place, so, thanks! I was wondering about your reply though, are you saying that you DO let the beans de-gas even though you prefer it straight out of the roaster? The reason I'm concerned about whether or not to de-gas is that I had, only since home roasting, had something like a stitch in the chest a couple of times, something I've never had before. So I was wondering if it's related. I'm also keeping the cooled roasted beans in a mason jar that I wrap with aluminum foil on the outside to keep the light out. This brings up another question about de-gassing: since my portions are usually in small batches anyway, keeping it closed in a mason jar is still considered de-gassing, right? I can't imagine leaving the beans uncovered all night in an old NY apartment where little creatures may roam. I also feel that I might get unwanted humidity this way. Am I right in thinking this way? In any case, I like this new step in coffee making because there can be so many variables (especially when i'm new to it) that it keeps everything interesting, and thought provoking. It's definitely more mellowed after 24 hours,where as after 4 hours, which I read somewhere was the minimal amount one should wait, the coffee is still quite edgy. Another thing is, there has been time when I ground too much, and used the rest the next day, and have it taste even better. Not sure if it's because I didn't wait long enough before grinding it, and so, in fact the overnight (in a jar) ground got to mellow? Sat Feb 21 18:24:35 -0800 2009 4439732 10422 HLing 4 4440455 To be clear, I don't use beans straight out of the roaster. I let them rest a day or more before use. They degas naturally as they age. I have jared them straight out of the roaster and sealed tight. I use to leave the lid ajar overnight then seal the next day and keep them sealed, opening only when dosing beans out for a brew. I really can't tell much difference if I let them degas in an unsealed jar several hours or seal them tight from the roaster. I roast enough for a week which is usually about a pound or two. I'm using the Aeropress a lot now which really burns throught the beans like espresso. I'm using 28 grams of beans for each large mug of coffee in the morning. Glad your enjoying homeroasted coffee. It really is that good. I'm using the SC/TO--StirCrazy/Turbo Oven roaster. Pictures attached Sat Feb 21 21:11:36 -0800 2009 4440199 89493 scubadoo97 5 4442604 Scubadoo97, how many filters do you use at a time for the Aeropress? I find myself using at least 3 but sometimes even 4 as a stack to control the time the coffee ground brew in the water. This way I don't have to use as much beans, and still have a decent cup. Demented, yes, so far I've paid $5 or $6 per pounds for green coffee beans,, but I think it can be even cheaper if bought in larger quantity, right? I'm still doing my homework on all areas of home roasting, mostly on the timing of things, but it's good to know that green coffee beans will keep. Sun Feb 22 18:27:42 -0800 2009 4440455 10422 HLing 6 4442718 I find it strange that you have to use more than 1 filter. Though I rarely use my Aeropress, (Brewtus for espresso, and French Press for brewed), when I have I've never had to use more than 1 filter. Not sure if this makes a difference, but I always pre-wet my filter before adding any grounds. Sun Feb 22 19:24:23 -0800 2009 4442604 20300 cgfan 7 4444153 I did pre-wet the filter for a while, but then I figure that when i pre-wet the grounds I'd be doing the same thing, No? Mon Feb 23 10:44:04 -0800 2009 4442718 10422 HLing 8 4444176 I do it out of gut instinct - whether or not it actually makes any difference I don't really know. For me I do it as when I insert the dry filter I want to immediately see a good (and flat) seal between the filter and the filter housing. Come to thnk of it whenever I use the Aeropress I use the "inverted" technique, which will prevent any brew water from escaping until you're ready to press the coffee. I should have mentioned that earlier, but since I so seldom use the Aeropress I forgot that detail... (You can find information on the inverted technique on CoffeeGeek.com, where Mark Prince, I believe, did a good write-up on it...) Mon Feb 23 10:50:38 -0800 2009 4444153 20300 cgfan 9 4445418 Now, why didn't I think of that?! Thanks for the lead to Mark Prince's Inverted method, cgfan. CoffeeGeek.com seemed like a very daunting place, but intriguing.... By the way, I just today, took a closer look at your avatar of the beautiful image of coffee beans. I bet you would know why the unroasted Monsoon Malabar beans i got the other day (for the first time) are yellow, like the ones in your image, and totally different looking from the other green coffee beans. I only know that they are "aged" but am curious as to how, and whether that has to do with their color. Mon Feb 23 16:22:04 -0800 2009 4444176 10422 HLing 10 4445651 "Now, why didn't I think of that?! " - that's precisely what I said to myself too when I first stumbled upon it! Yes, my understanding is that the beans are aged in semi-exposed conditions to the annual monsoons, allowing them to obtain their extra "character". Personally it's a bit too funky in taste for me, but is used as a replacement for robustas in some espresso blends. This reminds me a lot of the making of Tawny Ports, right down to it also being an acquired taste. Dr. Joseph John is known for using the monsooned beans in his Malabar Gold espresso blend. You can order beans direct from him, but to do so requires a large minimum purchase and certification that it will not be for commercial use. I've instead purchased his greens indirectly through distribution. BTW for a closer look, here's a link to my CH avatar pic: http://flickr.com/photos/95609303@N00/84707813/ Mon Feb 23 17:27:43 -0800 2009 4445418 20300 cgfan 11 4448042 cgfan, that is one fantastic image of the coffee beans indeed! The other images in your flickr set are also quite outstanding. Thanks for the link! Also just wanted say how I loved the Flamenco guitar to your Youtube video..with the perfect rhythmic knocking during your coffee making process and all....The actual coffee making process is way above my head right now though...so i can only appreciate the slant of the camera angle and the music at the moment. I usually enjoyed the Monsoon Malabar blended with other beans. It seems to center whatever beans I blend it with. Still curious as to the unique color of the unroasted beans.. Tue Feb 24 11:48:03 -0800 2009 4445651 10422 HLing 12 4448767 Thank you, HLing. And believe it or not the flamenco that you hear in the video was performed by a friend of mine at the young age of 12! Not sure what else to say about the color of the Monsooned Malabar, but I'm sure you can find plenty of other material on the web if you're interested in more information. Tue Feb 24 14:45:22 -0800 2009 4448042 20300 cgfan 1 4437843 Congrats on homeroasting. The beans will degass over the first week or so. I keep mine in mason jars and when you open them they burp out CO2. I agree with Luwak that coffee gets better over the first couple of days. Lighter roasts will need longer to develop compared to darker roasts. I won't use beans for espresso for at least 3-4 days but begin using them anytime after 24 hrs for other types of brewing. Straight out of the roaster is the best but others will disagree Fri Feb 20 19:27:10 -0800 2009 4437637 89493 scubadoo97 1 4440925 I've been roasting coffee for close to 4 years, using an I-Roast 2, the machine does ½ cup batches, roughly 1/3 of a pound. So It takes 4, ½ cup batches of green beans (1 1/3lb) to get 1 lb of roast coffee. Are we saving money, you bet your arse! Depending on where and how much green coffee you buy. I pay 4 – 6 dollars a pound for green coffee ($5 is average) and buy 20 – 60 pounds at a time when I find a coffee I really like, green coffee keeps forever, just keep it dry. 5 times 1.33 works out to about $6.50 a pound, compare that to $12+ a pound for coffee at boutique roaster... The short answer is yes, roasting at home saves money. I brew 4+ pounds of coffee a month, that works out to a saving of somewhere in the neighborhood of $22 a month, $265 a year and roughly $1050 since I started roasting my own coffee 4 years ago. The machine paid for itself in the first year! Sun Feb 22 07:05:22 -0800 2009 4437637 259011 Demented