597811 Fri Feb 20 09:03:16 -0800 2009 160 2 Los Angeles Area 0 4435686 First of all, let's get this straight: I love Los Angeles, and Los Angeles food. Right? I'm rather violently disagree with, say, the people that come round from New York and complain that nothing comes even close. I specialize in taking New Yorkers and San Franciscans and Chicagoans around Los Angeles and making them weep and cry and bang their chests with bereavement when they have to depart. So when I say that Los Angeles is seriously lagging behind in some food department, I don't mean it as some sort of general eye-rolling-hand-waving-a-priori-dismissal of Los Angeles as a cultural center - I mean it as a deep lover and believer in the Neverending Gobstopper of Wonder that is the Los Angeles food world. But Los Angeles, your coffee sucks. I speak out of sorrow, love, and endless hope. Let me get some things straight. First, I drink a lot of coffee. And I drink a lot of *crappy*, *CRAPPY* coffee. I'm OK with this. I'm a grad student, and an occasional writer. I spend two thirds of my life in some cafe or other, that I like for the space or the quiet or the feel, sucking down terrible coffee. I have no problem with it. Like John Thorne says - we have to, in the end, admit to ourselves that coffee is, first and foremost, a drug, and we are addicts. So most of my life is spent sucking swill. That's cool. I don't expect great coffee from your average coffeehouse. Most coffeehouses are more about space than coffee. That's fine. But then there are your Coffee Beverage Establishments. And that's a different story. Second, I'm talking about pure coffee, here, not foamed-milk beverages. Foamed milk is a different art, and it's not the center of my love. I've also found that many places that are expert with milk foaming arts don't match it with glorious beans. They're different aesthetics - a cappuccino is closer to a cocktail, and what I'm interested in is closer to pure, straight liquor. So: I'm talking about drip coffee, uncut espresso, and all the oddball in-betweens - like vacuum pot coffee, Aeropressed coffee, french press, etc. etc. Pure coffee. Third, I'm a Convert to the Cause of Glorious Coffee. I used to be a tea man, first and foremost. My heart was in Taiwanese high mountain oolongs, Chinese greens and whites, Japanese gyukoros. I would talk friends flying to Beijing into making buying trips for me. I nurtured contacts on the mainland. I drank a lot of coffee, with appreciation, but never with love. I favored Peet's Major Dickison's. And then came The Experience. This was my first sip, in a farmer's market in San Francisco, of Blue Bottle. And the skies shattered, and the heavens opened, and the light of a New Black God shone down upon me. Blue Bottle was nothing like anything I'd tasted before - deep, intense, surging with crazy flavors. Loads of crazy flavors. Long, enormous narrative tails - multi-minute long aftertastes, with wild trips through citrus flavors, spice flavors, lemon flavors, funky meaty flavors - everything. It was wonder in a cup. It was coffee that matched oolongs, wines, my favorite bourbons. Madness, insanity, depth, beauty, and wonder in a cup. Glory. When I came back after that trip to the Bay Area (where I tried to get at least two cups of blue bottle a day), I was in sorrow. I mean, I've always looked for good coffee, but I searched again, hard - nothing came in close. I bought bags of blue bottle for awhile, air mailed. It made me, in the end, start roasting myself. (This is the source of the article I wrote for Chow on home coffee roasting, at http://www.chow.com/stories/10621). What I found out was: it wasn't that hard. Using $5 a pound quality beans from sweetmarias.com, and using a $3 thrift store popcorn popper, and a $25 aeropress, I started turning out, in a month, coffee that was, say, reliably 80% as good as Blue Bottle, and sometimes as good. It's not that hard. So why doesn't LA have it? So: two claims about Los Angeles coffee. 1. The state of coffee, on average, is worse than San Francisco, New York, or Seattle. Basically, the average LA coffee is swill. The average San Francisco coffee is not swill. I think the break-line for LA is Starbucks. The average coffeehouse in Los Angeles serves drip coffee that is not as good Starbucks, and far below Peet's. This is something to be embarassed about. 2. The high end of coffee in Los Angeles is seriously, seriously lacking. Definitions: the high end of coffee is, for me, varietal coffee, preferably single-estate, recently roasted, and, typically, ground and dripped to order. These are not hard and fast rules, but every single truly great cup of coffee been that. I also tend to prefer light roasts, because I think they bring out varietal character. But this varies widely depending on the bean - some prefer dark. But in general, light. Though I still love Peet's uber-dark Major Dickison's blend. The difference between a single-estate, light-roasted coffee and most very dark, blended coffees is like the difference between a good single malt scotch, and a cocktail made from well scotch. Single-estating it gives you constant change, newness, wonder. And light-roast tends to emphasize acids (I think), which, (to my admittedly limited knowledge of food science, tends to create long, long, complicated aftertastes). A good cup of Blue Bottle can give me a 30 minute, evolving aftertaste, easily. (I think there are similar things that happen with wine and tea - but there are people on this board that know about a zillion times more about this than me.) I also tend to think that espresso isn't the best way to experience single-estate. It's a little too concentrated. You want a little space - like how you throw in a drop or two of water into a bourbon for maximal flavor. The best coffees I've ever had in my life - the heaven-breaking experiences - have all been dripped, french-pressed, aero-pressed, or vacuum potted. So here's the reviews: 1. Groundworks. Decent, fresh roasted coffee. But they're not super-varietal, and they're not trying for heights. 2. The Conservatory. Excellent with the milk-foaming arts, decent with the coffee. Not aiming at the heights. 3. Intelligencia. Aiming for the heights. Good varieties, roasted dark, and they drip stuff to order. And the coffee's *good*. But I think their soul is in espresso, rather than drip and other stuff. Their espresso is reliably perfectly pulled, their drip is - variable. Sometimes it's weak, sometimes it brings in off-flavors, or kills the coffee. They're not... adapting, I think. Each different bean needs to be learned and treated a little differently - and when you do it, like they do at Blue Bottle, you get reliable wonder. This may sound like it's asking a lot of coffee - but I don't think it is. It's just treating coffee as seriously as wine, or beer. Anyway: Intelligencia pulls fantastic espresso. (I took an expatriate Frenchman here, who'd been complaining about not getting a decent espresso in the States for the last decade, and he drunk three doubleshots and actually, literally, shed a tear.) Their single-estate drip is good, but somehow... not quite great. It tends to have a short tail. 4. La Mill. La Mill proves to me that a Clover machine and single-estate beans does not necessarily make great coffee. I've had good Clover-machined coffee (in San Fran, at Ritual), but the stuff here seems... weak, and off. Not full-bodied, flavors are recessed, muted... It's nice - it's got some character, you can definitely *tell* that the different varieties are different. But it's sort of... I don't know. The coffee here feels like an afterthought. I don't know, it's weird... they've got the process down. It *looks* like they're taking their coffee seriously. They're going through all the proper motions of making perfect coffee. But I don't sense love in the final brewed cup - somewhere in the line, whether it be in the roasting, or selection, or training of their baristas, they haven't done what you need to do produce. Some of the coffee here has tasted like it was the dirty dishwater run-off from a cup that had held a good cup of coffee three hours ago. 5. The Fix. OK, this is why I'm writing right now. I'd temporarily given up on Los Angeles coffee, then I started hearing about The Fix. They take their coffee seriously here, people told me. Varietal, light-roasted, people told me. It's great, people told me. I went. I walked in the door, and the first thing I saw was those big thermal carafes, full of premade coffee, being kept at a high, high temperature. You know, I don't want to be a snob. I hate being a snob. I don't want to be one of those people who has rules, and "ways to tell" that a place is good. But - thermal carafes. For varietal coffee... it's like walking into a wine bar and seeing them pour wine into plastic cups, over ice. Or pouring your espresso shot out of a premade jug. With really good, varietal coffee - it's the first few moments that are magic. And then constant evolution of flavor for the first ten minutes. But, especially, something about being held in those big thermal carafes kills great coffee. Somebody once explained to me why - it involves some sort of chemicals. Rhizomes or something. I don't know. But I would rather have, for single estate, the coffee dead cold, left out, then held in a thermal carafe. I was reading reviews of this place, on Yelp, and somebody complained about Fix as another in a long line of places devoted, wrongheadedly, to light roasting. "Great, another prejudiced ass," I thought. "Be open," I thought. But I can see why he's complaining. Because light roasted coffee is like sushi. It's delicate. It requires care. And if it goes wrong, it goes really, really wrong. Not the least because, if it's light roasted, and acidic, it gets a really, really long aftertaste. If it's bad, you're stuck with it. Most food won't wash it out. Maybe Sichuan, but I didn't have any Sichuan handy. But, you know, all these rules? I would throw them out if I got a great cup of coffee. I would throw out any beliefs I had about coffee, and thermal carafes. I'm open. So how was the coffee? I had: Nicaraguan, told it was fresh-brewed. It was: a first taste of dull sour. Changing, in the mouth, to: a slightly higher note of dull, flat sour. Followed quickly by a descent, after 10 seconds, into flavors of ash. Not interesting ash. Dull, boring ash. Followed by musty. A flat, empty, blank, ash-and-must flavor, that lasted in my mouth for an hour. So my plea is this: please, Los Angeles coffeemakers. You are behind. You are behind San Francisco, behind Berkeley, behind New York. It isn't hard. I figured out how to make good coffee with a thrift-store popcorn popper, a single web page, and a month of experimentation. And I'm not exactly a great cook, or anything. Part of it may be the crowd. We have to be willing to pay more for non-complex espresso drinks, we have to be willing to wait the time for it to be fresh-ground and dripped, and we have to be willing to praise it. But it's worth it. A full-power cup of properly roasted, varietal coffee... it's a full-throttle, ever-widening, ever-evolving mouthful of wonder. Alright: the one hooray. About a month and something ago, Intelligencia started offering single-estate espresso. It turns out to be awesome. They seem to just get espresso more than they get drip. Their single-espresso nails the big, wide, complicated flavors. It's really optimized for espresso, too - getting it Americano doesn't do as well as espresso. It's probably, oh, 70% as good as Blue Bottle. It's really, really good. Fri Feb 20 09:03:16 -0800 2009 14404 Thi N. 1 4435694 I'm sorry - that was long, and probably more negative than it needed to be. I tend not to like to post negative - I mean, there are craploads of bad places out there, and so few good, and, furthermore, if somebody enjoys it, what's the problem? But I feel strongly about this. And I feel that the places are within grasping reach of The Glory... they're just not doing it. And it frustrates me. Because good coffee is one of the *cheapest* beverage glories. And you can drive after three cups of it. Fri Feb 20 09:05:06 -0800 2009 4435686 14404 Thi N. 2 4710310 What? Not lovin' the coffee at Mickey D's? Sun May 24 04:58:00 -0700 2009 4435694 320182 Blonde Skater 1 4435725 I'm exaggerating about La Mill. It's actually pretty good. Maybe, say, 40%-50% of Blue Bottle. But it's got a long way to go. And it still feels a little... wrong to me. Like all the mechanical motions of good coffee were followed, but they're not hitting the mystical IT. The Intelligencia single-estate espresso is the one thing that hits the mystical IT in this city, pure-coffee-wise, right now. Fri Feb 20 09:10:08 -0800 2009 4435686 14404 Thi N. 2 4435781 ah, La Mill. for such a brush with greatness to fail is far worse than seeing failure where it was expected. now, if we could get them to use Dunkin Donuts coffee in those fancy whirligig machines, we might be flirting with perfection.... Fri Feb 20 09:23:06 -0800 2009 4435725 227301 jdwdeville 3 4437038 I have a theory that when you aim high with low-roasting, and you fail, it's not just the subjective-worse of "I expected so much more and I paid more." I think, because the low-roasting brings up acids that make the flavors last longer (or something like that) - it objectively lasts much longer on the tongue. Disasters are quadrupled. Fri Feb 20 14:36:36 -0800 2009 4435781 14404 Thi N. 1 4435780 I feel your pain. About a year ago, I did an espresso round-up: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/488346 The corridor from San Francisco to Vancouver is essentially the coffee center of North America, so I hold that it's unfair to compare LA to them. It's like saying Philadelphia has better cheese steaks. I'm an espresso drinker who prefers dark roasts (raised on Peet's in NorCal), so we don't have a common starting point, but if you want another perfectly pulled espresso, and the best I've had in town, check out the Choke Motorcycle shop on Normal, east of Virgil, Fri Feb 20 09:22:40 -0800 2009 4435686 10132 sku 2 4437047 I started on dark roasts at Peet's too - I just had a conversion experience. I will check out Choke thanks. But also: Chicago has a higher average level, I'm told. And NY does - NY, which has had famously crappy coffee forever. Now, the average nicey-nice cafe has a *good* cup. And the heights - like Cafe Grumpy - are *high*. The average nicey-nice cafe in LA is still sub Starbucks. I think the presence of one or two really heartfelt roasters/cafes will change things - one of the things that raises the *general* coffee level is having sensational coffee to taste, regularly - then you can *see* the difference. Fri Feb 20 14:38:18 -0800 2009 4435780 14404 Thi N. 2 4444986 Also, another wonderful coffee is Raven's Brew, from Alaska: http://www.ravensbrew.com/ I like their Deadman's Reach coffee. Certain to spark up your day. Mon Feb 23 14:05:05 -0800 2009 4435780 65821 Golem 1 4435983 Don't forget Cafe Luxxe on Montana they make excellent expresso and expresso drinks. Spelling yes hmm thats why google maps can never find it thanks adsvino Fri Feb 20 10:11:44 -0800 2009 4435686 76015 Ben7643 2 4436062 Luxxe for us detail-minded folk..... Fri Feb 20 10:34:33 -0800 2009 4435983 12141 Adsvino 2 4440170 yes, I'd agree more (i do agree that the food here is in many ways better than places like ny and chicago) had you mentioned Luxxe, a pretty delicious Euro style coffee. Sat Feb 21 18:14:38 -0800 2009 4435983 15114 epop 1 4436206 Do me a favour. I know you live in LA and you eat in LA. But if you happen to make it down here to OC, go to Kean. It's in Newport Back Bay, where 17th turns into Westcliff, so it's not really on the way to anywhere. They're opening a second one in Tustin, on Newport and Main, which will be a little friendlier to my gas tank if not to my wallet. The coffeeshop does more with espresso than drip coffee, though their drip coffee is very, very good (you can buy it by the French press if you're staying in the shop) -- but I've bought their beans and I make them at home with my cheap $25 burr grinder and my garage sale French press and it's just... heaven. You can buy single-origin (not sure about single-estate) or you can buy their blend, which I think is fantastic. The date of roasting is written on the tape sealing the bag shut, so you know how "old" it is. And then tell me what you think. Espresso is my real love -- I grew up in a heavily Italian place, and was drinking espresso regularly by the time I was in high school, and the pinnacle of American-made espresso is Zibetto in New York, that tiny, sterile hole in the wall -- but a good cup of French-press coffee is just fantastic. Fri Feb 20 11:16:53 -0800 2009 4435686 10811 Das Ubergeek 2 4436221 Kean coffee is good i'll second it only been there once but my dry cap was excellent. Fri Feb 20 11:20:52 -0800 2009 4436206 76015 Ben7643 2 4437098 Done. Fri Feb 20 14:51:30 -0800 2009 4436206 14404 Thi N. 2 4531741 This really sounds good and sure would beat driving to San Diego to get my supply of Pannikin Coffee. I know this section of Newport because my son and I sometimes get a slice at The Pizza Bakery at 1741 Westcliff Dr. Good thin crust pizza. Now I have two reasons to go there. Thanks, http://www.thepizzabakery.com/ Mon Mar 23 18:14:55 -0700 2009 4436206 90917 JeetJet 1 4436238 Have you been to Jones? Fri Feb 20 11:25:10 -0800 2009 4435686 10669 Amuse Bouches 2 4436836 My question exactly. Jones is a coffee roaster located in a warehouse on Raymond (just north of California) in Pasadena, where they have a little area for selling beans and brew to the (usually, not too snooty) public. They also offer a few pastries, but a couple of days ago I picked up some guava and cheese strudel at Porto's and drove all the way down to Jones so that I could have a triple espresso with it -- an outstanding idea! The espresso is rich and powerful with a tan crema, and it goes down like fine bourbon. They also give coffee-roasting and -tasting short-courses and even sponsor trips to coffee-producing regions around the world. For details or to get on their mailing list, see: http://www.thebestcoffee.com/ Fri Feb 20 13:47:55 -0800 2009 4436238 77350 sbritchky 3 4437050 I'll go. Fri Feb 20 14:38:39 -0800 2009 4436836 14404 Thi N. 3 4437699 I think they also own some coffee plantations. Real artisans, the Jones people. And that warefront smells like heaven. Fri Feb 20 18:15:36 -0800 2009 4436836 10669 Amuse Bouches 1 4436320 What is Jones? I'll have to try the Intelligentsia single-estate espresso, thanks. Thi, I'm sure you're completely right about these places, but I don't think most people in L.A. actually like light roasted varietal coffees. Many "foodie" type people I know can appreciate really good espresso and cappucino, but I know very few who are really that interested in repeatedly drinking and analyzing single estate coffees -- especially first thing in the morning! And I believe Jonathan Gold said as much about himself around the time Lamill opened. I personally feel that that type of coffee appeals to a very small niche, smaller than the people who appreciate good beer, for example. I guess I just don't get the more subtle distinctions in coffee -- I recently bought a pound each of Lamill, Intelligentsia, Blue Bottle and Peet's -- mostly espressos -- and concluded that the Peet's fresh from the shop (not from the supermarket) was the closest to what I need my coffee to taste like in the morning. Fri Feb 20 11:42:08 -0800 2009 4435686 12460 Chowpatty 2 4436372 Jones is a Pasadena-based coffee roaster: http://www.thebestcoffee.com/ And yea, there's a time for enjoying coffee and savoring every sip and then there's time for just something to mentally jolt me out of bed while still tasting pretty good. For me, Peet's (either Blend 101 or Fair Trade) or LA Mill (Black Onyx blend or Tanzania Blackburn) does the trick for the latter. I do want to check out Intelligentsia's beans next time I make my way there though. ~H.C. http://la-oc-foodie.blogspot.com Fri Feb 20 11:57:25 -0800 2009 4436320 11949 AquaW 2 4437085 I know this is the state of the culture, and it's probably *why* there isn't the existence of many places. But I don't know why. We're full of lovers of different wines, different belgians, different bourbons, different teas, different single malt scotches. The difference between the usual, blended-style coffee, and a single-estate coffee is exactly the difference between Johnny Walker and a single malt scotch. Why is it that LA is full of people that will appreciate every different scotch, all the nuances and varieties, but be unwilling to go for the coffee? I'll stand up here and say: the best coffee I've had is as good as the best scotch I've had. The variety of flavors is as wide - there are weird ones, chill ones, gorgeous ones, singing ones. The best coffee I've ever had, though, cost either $6 a pound for green beans, $15 a pound for roasted (from BB), or $4.50 for a cup. Rather than $20 a glass, or $200 (or more) a bottle. I don't get why the niche is small. One of my guesses is that the niche is small because there isn't much incredible coffee, and there isn't much incredible coffee because the niche is small. What we need is more conversion experiences. Maybe that's why Intelligentsia is doing is right. They're offering the perfectly pulled normal shot, and then one single-estate a day. Maybe the niche will broaden. But, in general, isn't that what CHowhound is about? Finding delights that are currently enjoyed by a teeny tiny niche and then trying to drag each other kicking and screaming into new wonders? Fri Feb 20 14:46:59 -0800 2009 4436320 14404 Thi N. 3 4437321 Further: I think a similar thing I've heard said about Chinese. Like, people who will carefully pursue the best in French and Italian and wine, but just want to have the same crappy takeout sweet and sour. And the same said about Mexican - it's all the same, you just need a decent burrito from Chipotle, etc. Isn't the point of Chowhound: that there is wonder everywhere, that almost every form of cuisine, beverage, fruit, vegetable, and skin can be made beautiful, shocking, artfully, and probably better than you imagined, and that it was worth chasing all of it? I'm not saying that there's something wrong with grabbing the comforting stuff you like. I suck down enough cruddy, hot, tasty, one-note coffee in my life. I'm just saying: complete brilliant shining awesome is possible. Fri Feb 20 16:00:12 -0800 2009 4437085 14404 Thi N. 4 4437576 Thi N. i concur with everything you've said here and truly VALUE the time you've spent posting so that the rest of us can benefit from your experience. My hat is off to you!!!! THANK YOU Fri Feb 20 17:25:19 -0800 2009 4437321 11935 westsidegal 3 4441943 "I don't get why the niche is small. One of my guesses is that the niche is small because there isn't much incredible coffee" There's not the demand and people are willing to settle for whatever is around at the time. Unless people have experienced what I've experienced in Seattle or San Francisco they really don't have any idea what they're missing...hence Peet's and Starbuck's. Sun Feb 22 13:57:31 -0800 2009 4437085 239340 latindancer 2 4741101 And having had a latte at Jones on Tuesday morning this week, you do not need to visit this place - the whole beverage is milk and thin milk only. That latte cannot hold a candle to the one at Peet's in Studio City, which I still feel makes the most consistent versions within that company's LA area locations, especially from certain baristas. It tasted something like one from 'bux or the 'bean, yet even less coffee-like, if you can believe that. And there is virtually NO place to sit, so plan to buy and depart, and the parking sucks after 8:30 in the morning. Just a really disappointing start to the day. Wed Jun 03 21:36:29 -0700 2009 4436320 10359 carter 1 4436418 Ok, I agree with some of your sentiments. This is much the reason that I have gotten into making my own espresso at home. However, the best of the best in Los Angeles is actually the Perry family at Coffee Klatch. Heather has won countless Barista championships, and Ronald (her father), is a roasting champ. I know that San Dimas is about 30 miles east of Los Angeles, but you seem passionate to find the best, so it may be worth the drive. In addition, I agree with the visit to Caffe Luxxe. It's a good place to check out, but also focuses on espresso. Also, there is quite a bit of research that you can do on coffeegeek.com and home-barista.com They are both amazing resources for the coffee fan. Fri Feb 20 12:06:58 -0800 2009 4435686 236953 avidanr 1 4436764 Wow, you must drink a lot of coffee. One of the longest posting I've ever seen. Followed by another posting 2 minutes later, followed by another 5 minutes later. Are those typing hands shaking? Fri Feb 20 13:28:14 -0800 2009 4435686 168597 The Old Man 2 4436916 HI Thi N, I also have an aeropress and like dark roasts (like major dickinson blend), I usually make americanos from them with my aeropress. I've never tried Blue Bottle, wonder if I could try some of those beans you make at home (I'd be happy to pay) thanks- Fri Feb 20 14:07:28 -0800 2009 4436764 89363 Iateitup 3 4437102 You don't need me. You just need to buy some green beans from sweetmarias.com and follow that link I gave above and roast them at home. You can even use a cast iron pan. Or mail order from blue bottle. Fri Feb 20 14:53:28 -0800 2009 4436916 14404 Thi N. 3 4439518 Like Jones Coffee Roasters, the AeroPress is another outstanding idea that most Los Angeles coffee lovers seem to have missed. I use this simple, inexpensive, California-produced gadget to make all my coffee at home -- both espresso (mit foam) -- and Americano (by adding hot water). The results brim with flavor, not bitterness, because of the fine grind and very short brewing time (about 30 seconds), and lack the familiar grounds of a cup of French press -- particles that continue cooking as you drink, making each sip more bitter than the last. (If you're interested, see http://www.aerobie.com/Products/aeropress_story.htm for more information.) Sat Feb 21 13:12:23 -0800 2009 4436916 77350 sbritchky 1 4439249 First of all, Thi, I love you man! Seriously, Los Angeles should name a park after you or something; you are up there with J. Gold as a local culinary gem as far as I am concerned. Second, when my law firm moved offices last summer, we put in our own Pete's Coffee concession. (The folks who man the bar, who are our employees, had to go be trained and everything.) Happy me. Third, and last, maybe this would be different for me if I lived in SF or Seattle or something, but the best coffee I've had has always, always, been made by me at home. It's just one of those things, like scrambled eggs (which have been overcooked and cooked too quickly at every single restaurant I've ever been to except for one), that I don't expect to be great outside of my home. It's like expecting people to drive courteously; you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. I suspect this is because it requires too much thought, care, attention to detail, and frankly good taste to be done well consistently for a couple of dollars a cup, when, frankly, most people won't notice or care. Hate to be cynical, but there it is. Sat Feb 21 11:25:07 -0800 2009 4435686 10134 David Kahn 2 4439371 And in the middle of the park will be a statue of a taco truck with Thi standing on its roof, arms out stretched, offering a cemita poblana to the Angeleno's gathered there to enjoy the beautiful summer day. Sat Feb 21 12:18:41 -0800 2009 4439249 108169 Servorg 3 4444750 No, no, no, my preliminary sketches for the park involve Thi and a bowl of noodles.... Mon Feb 23 13:03:03 -0800 2009 4439371 11398 silverlakebodhisattva 4 4478075 You guys are too nice. Really. Thu Mar 05 18:51:53 -0800 2009 4444750 14404 Thi N. 2 4441717 Honestly - as a dark roast, drip coffee drinker who is from San Francisco and has lived in Seattle, I have to say you've nailed it, David. I've never had an especially memorable cup in a coffee house in either of those places (or in Los Angeles). The best coffee I've had is my own at home; I fully know this and do not expect to be overwhelmed by goodness when I order coffee out. Every now and then I am pleasantly surprised - usually at Peet's, where they understand dark roasts - but most of the time, I've come to view coffee ordered out as purely medicinal. It's the cup at home that is both medicinal and delicious! Sun Feb 22 12:31:45 -0800 2009 4439249 174303 Vaya Con Carne 2 4478086 I do believe, though, that a true loving dedicated full-time specialist can do better and above than a homemade person. Is it something in particular about *coffee* that makes it better at home - or is it that *coffee culture* in Los Angeles and other parts of the U.S. is just non-great, so people don't expect or demand greatness, so it stays non-great? Also: doesn't care, and attention, for a few-dollar thing, the kind of rarity we look for everywhere? Pupusas, tacos, fresh bread. In most cases - it's care and attention that most won't notice. But a dedicated audience can support a few specialists, who go beyond and keep pushin' the boundaries. I actually think coffee and bread are similar - stapes, that in many areas are best made at home, and that, in many places, people just won't expect greatness - but if they do and demand and support, then a few places can achieve The Next Level of Awesome. Thu Mar 05 18:54:58 -0800 2009 4439249 14404 Thi N. 1 4439560 For myself, I'm not that interested in where to go to buy a great cup. Why pay for a cup when a grinder and press give me consistently better results at home. I'm curious where hounds think is the best spot in LA to buy a wide variety of different beans. Particularly Yemeni Moka. Any leads? Sat Feb 21 13:36:43 -0800 2009 4435686 205984 mrgreenbeenz 1 4440223 Thanks for the thoughts. This along with Intelligentsia and LA Mill opening near my house have made me rethink coffee. As, Chowpatty said, I as an Angelino, prefer espresso. Or at least prefer to experience espresso vs. drink coffee. BTW, nicely written. Sat Feb 21 18:33:44 -0800 2009 4435686 13554 cls 1 4441843 Blue Bottle on a cold wet Saturday at the Ferry Building is one thing, but you are advocating a trend in coffee drinking which I hope will soon fade. The championing of insipid, under brewed, under roasted and perhaps in the worst crime of all lukewarm coffee in the effort to detect some ethereal note to me borders on insanity. Dark roast all the way. Sun Feb 22 13:19:15 -0800 2009 4435686 11763 rezpeni 2 4441901 Yes. Wholeheartedly yes. Sun Feb 22 13:40:48 -0800 2009 4441843 174303 Vaya Con Carne 1 4442226 I highly recommanded: Jones Coffee Roasters @ Pasadena Good bean, Wondeful espresso, friendy place. Coffee Klatch @ San Dimas/ Rancho Cucamonga good espresso, espeically when the ex-barista champ is behind the counter. Probably have the best roasted bean in L.A. Won the best micro-roaster from roastermagazine.com in 2008. Intelligencia @ Siver lake great espresso, only wish they roast locally rather than from Chicago. http://www.thesupremebean.com @ North Hollywood One of the earlier local coffee roaster. I usually just order coffee from them. Coffee of choice for many hollywood productions I've tried groundwork & La Mill. They're better than the major chains. Fresh Roast @ San Gabriel is just ok, they do roast locally. For the truely devoated, you can go to SCAA HQ in Long Beach and roast your bean and made your own coffee as a consumer member. Sun Feb 22 15:46:12 -0800 2009 4435686 113172 enlightenment 1 4442457 I love coffee. IMHO it is the most important of the food groups. I have yet to find a cup I enjoy more than Javatini, in old town Seal Beach. Beans are roasted fresh, in small batches, in an air roaster (the commercial equivalent of your air popcorn popper). Their house blend is dependable. You can enjoy a cup while getting your choice of beans roasted to your desired degree of darkness. Javatini is about the coffee more than about the space, although there is free wi-fi for those so inclined. Sun Feb 22 17:28:37 -0800 2009 4435686 10203 CynD 1 4444549 I'm not sure why this is bugging me, but it kind of is. Because in fact New York is a pretty miserable coffee town, Grumpy's notwithstanding. For various reasons, punishing rents first among them, I think, there just isn't the coffee culture, and the several years I lived there I felt almost obligated to mail-order beans. You would too, if the alternative was Porto Rico or Dean & DeLuca. I would have killed for a branch of Groundworks, not even to say Intelligentsia. (Coffee-obsessed Seattle and PDX, of course, are different stories.) And La Mill actually specializes in the kind of coffee you seem to prefer - lightly roasted, well-sourced, estate-grown beans prepared in a way that accentuates the vast, winey spectrum of flavors in coffee, some of which express themselves more eloquently through Chemex, some through Clover, and some through the Eva Solo brewing method. Bluebottle is good too, maybe better, but the differences between them are more aesthetic than qualitative. We're talking about the differences between two good winemakers working with different tracts of Volnay, not the difference between La Tache and generic shipper's Burgundy. Mon Feb 23 12:14:32 -0800 2009 4435686 10702 condiment 2 4478093 Two points: 1. I hear NY has a history of bad coffee. But in my last visit there, a few months ago, I spent wandering for about 3 weeks around manhattan and the boroughs - and consistently, I found places that claimed to make good coffee, that made good coffee. This may be a new developmnet. 2. La Mill makes the *style* I most like, but it doesn't make it beautifully. It feels... like it's going through the motions. Maybe I overemphasized the light vs. dark thing. I give an edge to light, but I love great light-roasted and I love great dark-roasted. I love Intelligencia, and they're dark roasters. It's just, that dark or light, the places that claim coffee greatness in LA just fall short. I don't think it's a style thing - it feels to me like Blue Bottle and La Mill are in the same style... Blue Bottle just feels full of love and attention. But maybe this is just my own proclivities. But one thing to note: Blue Bottle has huge lines, and passionate, rabid fans, and proselytizers. People with a weird burn in the eyes, when they talk about it - who buy the beans before they travel and give them as special gifts. Does La Mill have that? Thu Mar 05 18:59:26 -0800 2009 4444549 14404 Thi N. 2 4507502 Intelligentsia and La Mill are world-class coffee as far as I'm concerned. The Ethiopian Sidamo at La Mill is one of my all-time favorites. Coffee this good is extremely rare in the United States, including in NYC and SF. Sun Mar 15 15:54:10 -0700 2009 4444549 105839 aventinus 3 4646962 I had the Panama Esmerelda last weekend, and at the expense of sounding like a band-wagon hanger-on, it was about as perfect a cup of coffee as I've had in a long time. Fri May 01 17:02:40 -0700 2009 4507502 64003 bulavinaka 4 4667785 Hi, bulavinaka! Did you have the Panama Esmeralda at LaMill? That is the only coffee I order there -- Clover style, please! -- and it is always great! It is so rich and complete that it completely satisfies by itself...no food. Fri May 08 20:07:39 -0700 2009 4646962 14014 liu 5 4668034 Hi liu, My coffee drinking is usually not too far above pedestrian, but having that coffee as you specified was as near a perfect cup as I've ever had. Fri May 08 23:32:12 -0700 2009 4667785 64003 bulavinaka 6 4668731 I am so glad that you, too, like it as much as I do! As tea is my preference, I rarely drink coffee. I had my first cup of Panama Esmeralda from a Clover machine at Groundwork downtown. When that shop closed, I knew I would never be able to match it. LaMill's cup comes very close... Sat May 09 10:17:01 -0700 2009 4668034 14014 liu 6 4694440 Again, this past weekend I enjoyed a cup of Clover /Panama Esmeralda at LaMill. The buyer/manager came by and gave us a sample cup of Ethiopian Lima coffee, and my companion had a cup of Brazilian something. Now was my chance to compare TWO other different coffees with my Panama Esmeralda...side-by-side...to see if the Panama Esmeralda REALLY was as good as I believed it to be. The Ethiopian Lima was watery on my palate; it had a nice flavor, but no body. The Brazilian cup was burned tasting; I was reminded of Starbucks. Then I took a sip of my Panama Esmeralda and I was Goldilocks...it was just right! It was full, rich and smooth. It was SO MUCH BETTER than the other coffees I was trying. This Clover Machine Panama Esmeralda is -- as you point out, bulavinaka, a perfect cup of coffee. I left completely satisfied, now convinced that this coffee is really special. Mon May 18 11:48:14 -0700 2009 4668034 14014 liu 1 4444966 Wow! How can this be? I agree fully. Blue Bottle!!! Yes. Excellent coffee. I get it every time I'm in the Bay area. Also, Peet's Major Dickinson's is also very good, and they do brew it just right. But I must disagree about Starbucks. Their higher end coffees are quite nice, and some even have the fullness I like in the better coffees. Not great, but adequate. Still, nothing beats Blue Bottle. If they would open something in LA, I would be a much happier man (okay, just a little bit happier, but happier, still). Mon Feb 23 13:59:14 -0800 2009 4435686 65821 Golem 1 4477134 Sorry to digress, but I'm curious to know if you would divulge some or all of the essential places you take out-of-towners? I like your attitude towards (and taste for) coffee. Ergo, you probably have good taste. Thu Mar 05 13:43:36 -0800 2009 4435686 259194 tchad 1 4477741 Agree re: Cafe Luxxe in Santa Monica. In addition, Mitch at Espreso Profetta in Westwood pulls a sublime espresso. http://www.espressoprofeta.com/ Thu Mar 05 16:46:55 -0800 2009 4435686 269615 MR Kugel 1 4506413 Oh Blue Bottle. My first taste was at Pizzaiola in Temescal. They said they didn't serve drip coffee and brought me what I assume was an Americano. The richest, most flavorful cup of coffee on the planet is what it really was. Thinking it was a fluke I followed up with the same drink at Tartine the next morning....nope, not a fluke, perfection. Outside of SF though I've been 1000% unable to find a drink like this. I think it's an Americano but to be honest I'm having doubts because I can't reproduce it outside of the Bay Area. Intelligentsia's version was actually flavorless and scalding hot. To follow up on the bean thing from Intelligentsia though, I purchased a pound of the Bolivian beans for $17, which is seemed a little silly, and while it took 3 days or so, the beans developed very, very nicely in my French. The grounds are a medium brown/red, crema color and the head of the pot is the same color. Good place to check out for beans if you can get over the sticker shock. Sun Mar 15 07:58:38 -0700 2009 4435686 89864 zjarrett 2 4506627 I think you've put your finger on something I've felt for a while -- Blue Bottle taste is heavily dependent on the method of brewing. If the person making your coffee knows what he or she is doing, it can be the most flavorful cup of coffee in the world, particularly when brewed with the precision of a machine like the Clover. But throw the smallest thing out of whack, including the wrong settings on the Clover, and the flavor can be thin and bitter. I've given up brewing drip coffee with Blue Bottle for this reason -- I just can't get a consistent cup of coffee. PS: Great thread Thi! Sun Mar 15 09:36:29 -0700 2009 4506413 18466 a_and_w 3 4507913 I agree - probably one of the biggest disappointments I had while in The City last summer was the coffee at Tartine. Ordered an Americano with all of those fantastic pastries. My coffee was bitter. I'm assuming maybe someone new was at the helm, and it was midday, midweek - the perfect time to put a newbie into training. Sun Mar 15 18:36:49 -0700 2009 4506627 64003 bulavinaka 2 4508271 I make frequent trips to the Bay Area and enjoy, no make that LOVE Blue Bottle Coffee at the Ferry Bldg. Farmer's Mkt., the Linden St. Kiosk and the newer Mint Bldg. shop. While a good number of other businesses do serve their coffee, Tartine Bakery is not one of them. I usually go to Tartine for my first breakfast every trip and an occasional lunch and frequent dessert stops after dining elsewhere. The coffee that they serve is from Mr. Espresso in Oakland, 'Oak Roasted Coffee' and it is 'old school Italian' not the new wave stuff. Sun Mar 15 21:13:35 -0700 2009 4506413 10864 sel 2 4516010 Sticker shock: again, this is a cultural thing. Folks are totally willing to pay 10 times as much for a great bottle of wine as for a decent one - but twice the cost of a normal cup of coffee, or supermarket beans, and people are freakin' out. Why? Compared to: wine, most liquor, and tea, great coffee's the biggest bargain for your lusty overwhelming flavor. Wed Mar 18 08:04:34 -0700 2009 4506413 14404 Thi N. 1 4506836 I feel your pain, and agree that it can be difficult to find good coffee in Los Angeles. But Peets....surely you jest. I was a hard core loyal Peets drinker for over 25 years (my favorites being French, Vienna, Italian Roasts, plus the African and Indonesian varieties) until I discovered the likes of Caffe Luxxe, Intelligentsia, and Groundworks. Not to mention several little Italian eateries that make a mean drip. Peets quality has, in my most humble opinion, suffered as they have expanded. The barristas at many of their sattelite shops are clueless, the shops themselves dirty and poorly managed. Mind you, I was WAY hard core with the Peets. Seriously. Sun Mar 15 11:04:15 -0700 2009 4435686 181145 Sweetalicious 2 4508046 I lived in Seattle from 1980-'83 around the time places like Starbucks and the beer venues were just showing up, and had a couple European trips under my belt. I have cut back on my caffeine dramatically, since I can provide a little too much adrenalin or anxiety unless properly exercised, and I must say, I never have the kind of coffee experience I'm looking for at any average place, and most places that are sometimes good are still inconsistent. So if you are gonna go a little above the crap you are served as mentioned above, I highly recommend bothering with the really good venues. (But not all the time! :-) ) Cuz if you really want a good cuppa nothing will meet it. I can honestly say, that now that it is more a "vacation" drink, not something in my routine all the time, it makes it easier to make a point of buying a small amount of really great beans, grinding and dripping it at home, and yes, I too like it dark. And I still use my espression and cappucino machines now and again too! Sun Mar 15 19:28:42 -0700 2009 4506836 51111 MaryT 3 4508329 "I lived in Seattle from 1980-'83 around the time places like Starbucks and the beer venues were just showing up" Starbucks began in 1971. I was born and raised in Seattle along with every known imaginable upstart of some of the most creative coffee making in the world. Starbuck's empire is based on several concepts but the one that made them the most famous was buying the finest arabica coffee beans and putting them through the darkest roasting. Seattle is not only know for great roasting, coffee making and merchandising but the water in Seattle seriously adds to the equation. I have searched and found good beans in LA and they're seriously no different than the way I'm accustomed to making at home. When I first moved to LA years ago I couldn't/wouldn't let go of my beloved Seattle beans and had them shipped overnight every night. Now I buy my beans 1/4# at a time and use them within a few days. It's decaf now....my heart's getting tired of the quadruple shot espressos I've consumed every morning for the last 40 years :). Sun Mar 15 22:02:40 -0700 2009 4508046 239340 latindancer 4 4508654 Where do you buy your beans? Mon Mar 16 06:02:16 -0700 2009 4508329 174303 Vaya Con Carne 5 4509061 I buy my beans at The Conservatory in Culver City. I've tried all the other beans in this city and they're all fine. The owner of The Conservatory was taught by a man in Seattle who I've known at least 30 years when he first began with one of the first kiosks in Seattle, on Capital Hill. His bean roasting is legendary and I like the way Conservatory dates their beans. Beans are very subjective in taste and color. I like a very dark roast and there are a few I switch off with. Mon Mar 16 08:39:17 -0700 2009 4508654 239340 latindancer 6 4509379 I like a very dark roast too - I lived in Seattle as a teen in the 1970s and was basically weaned on the original Starbucks :) Thanks, I've got to check this place out soon. Mon Mar 16 10:06:20 -0700 2009 4509061 174303 Vaya Con Carne 7 4509462 I've experimented with all the beans in the city....every place listed and this place comes closest to my standards of what defines great coffee. Beans begin to oxidize almost immediately after they've been roasted. Pulling a great shot of espresso with beautiful crema requires the beans to be the freshest possible....the time is right after roasting. Any bean roasted 12-24 hours before grinding is the freshest. Day by day after this window of opportunity the best crema, and the best pulled great shot, begins to decrease. Conservatory is upfront and knowledgable. They will let you know when the beans were roasted and they are consistently credible. I've tried all the other places listed above where I know I was deceived....the beans were stale (although packaged beautifully and impressively) and they missed the mark. I ended up throwing them away. The original Starbucks in the market was wonderful....they learned their technique from Peet's in Berkeley. Those days are long gone. Mon Mar 16 10:25:07 -0700 2009 4509379 239340 latindancer 8 4515385 latindancer, when you pick up your beans at Jones Coffee you can see the roasters at work 20 or 30 feet away on the other side of the large room. Are you saying that you found those beans stale? Tue Mar 17 23:52:02 -0700 2009 4509462 77350 sbritchky 4 4518427 Geez , what I meant was that was the time period where Starbucks started becoming that trendy fix that we were all ordering it mail order and the beer places really started taking off, I am not talking about the origins of Starbucks for sake, that original place and Pikes Place Market are nothing like they were 30 years ago. I made a lot of business trips after I moved, to Seattle and the environs, and that had turned into a big deal, and during the 80s and 90s I entertained a lot of business people and I do not think the beer and the coffee really got big until that era. And Starbucks was not something most people in the US had heard of. I don't think most anyone knows of Starbucks before that era. Why I need do defend this I am not even sure of. And myself I have some chocolate and a half a cuppa when I have a really good day, but I don't do caffeine heavy either, and I drank too much of it when I was young and regret it frankly. : When did Starbucks start showing up everywhere? I did not research this but I was pretty well travelled in the 80s and it was a Seattle thing for quite a long time am I wrong???? Wed Mar 18 22:53:51 -0700 2009 4508329 51111 MaryT 5 4518779 I started noticing a Starbucks on every Los Angeles street corner probably in the mid to late 1990s. I really don't recall coffee being a big thing in Los Angeles before that - it was always something I made at home and had no expectation of being able to find when I went out. I lived in Seattle in the late 1970s, and IIRC there was just that one Starbucks in the Market for a very long time. Seattle had Starbucks, Berkeley had Peet's, and Los Angeles had a few random indie coffeehouses (the Go-Between, where I briefly worked; the Onyx, where the coffee was a joke). Thu Mar 19 06:06:48 -0700 2009 4518427 174303 Vaya Con Carne 2 4516022 I'm not sayin' Peet's is fantastic. I'm saying that, Peet's, in its present incarnation, is mediocre (though a few of the branches in Berkeley are still killin' it old school), and most small, so-called coffee specialists in L.A. are below Peet's. This is not a praise of Peet's, this is an indictment of the L.A. scene. I agree: Caffe Luxxe, Intelligentsia, and Groundworks are all well above Peet's. It's just that the *average* place in L.A. claiming to be a coffee specialist is making coffee, on average, that is below the big chain. And this *should not be*. Wed Mar 18 08:07:11 -0700 2009 4506836 14404 Thi N. 1 4508130 Thi - Great topic, sort of combining a lot of food/culture aspects. Part of the problem it seems is that places that move a lot of (drip) coffee just have to have it on hand, so it tends to sit there until it runs out. Very few places - maybe good Vietnamese joints and a couple specialists will make a drip coffee to order, which means you're left with espresso or derivatives (like an Americano, which is sort of another animal). And you can forget about "nice" restaurants having good coffee - how many times have you had an exquisite meal dampened a bit by terrible coffee at the end, for example. As for why it's not catching on, just wait. Remember, we're really new at this in L.A. It took a long time for good wine to catch on too, and like previous posts have referenced, a lot of people (nearly all maybe?) don't drink coffee to enjoy it, they drink it to get through the morning at work. Hopefully this will change as people get a clue as to what's out there. What works for me? Single-estate light roast (we think alike here) bought at a place like Whole Foods or whoever's selling recently-roasted beans, ground at the store and consumed w/in a few days. Hard to pick a favorite since they're all so different and distinctive. As for Jones operation in Pasadena, yes, the family (friends of mine) has a coffee estate in southwestern Guatemala. Unfortunately, they're apparently not stocking coffee from it right now, but they are seriously passionate/knowledgeable about coffees in general, and always have a "there are no dumb questions" attitude. Sun Mar 15 20:00:50 -0700 2009 4435686 15494 cant talk...eating 2 4508464 The only question I ask at Jones, as I walk in: "Single or double?" Invariably, my answer at the counter is: "Triple espresso [to go, so that I can drink it in the car while eating a fabulous, tiny pastry from my new favorite shop]." Then I learned that their in-house pastries are from the same great place (Ap-Petite). Mon Mar 16 02:29:17 -0700 2009 4508130 77350 sbritchky 1 4515433 Thi, Another thanks for the great post. I've been looking at the Blue Bottle website, and pardon my coffee ignorance, but they've got almost 30 varieties of beans for sale. Does your reverence for Blue Bottle span all these varieties, or is there a particular one or two that top the list? I'd like to try mail ordering some, but not sure which is their signature bean? Appreciate any more info. And/or if anyone else has any favorites from BB. Wed Mar 18 01:04:15 -0700 2009 4435686 127538 wutzizname 2 4515955 Giant Steps for sure. One of their darker roasts, as I recall. Plus, it shares its name with one of my favorite Coltrane albums. Wed Mar 18 07:52:01 -0700 2009 4515433 18466 a_and_w 1 4518459 This thread has finally gotten under my skin as well. Since Thi N. has gone a little metaphysical here and there, I feel as I might as well - I think coffee, for me - and I imagine for others who love it - is like Beethoven (the sonatas, let's say) - in your heart-of-hearts you instinctively imagine, and yearn, for what perfection might feel and sound like, but in reality these features rarely come into full relief and full clarity of expression. I might like Schnabel for his animal vitality, Brendel for his penetrating intellect, Kempf, Solomon, et al for other reasons, but no one iteration is able to encompass everything - there is no complete reading. Similarly - although I too prefer a lighter to medium (a true 'city' roast is hopelessly rare these days) roast, and single-origin coffees, I also sympathize with the occasional yen for something a degree darker. I like the 'terroir' and bean flavor that comes through in lighter roasts, but I also like the brooding richness and body that comes with a darker roast, so long as it doesn't dominate the flavor of the coffee's origin - in other words, I prefer a balance. Intelligentsia or Peet's occasionally satisfies the yen on the darker side, but I usually frequent Kean in Costa Mesa for the lighter style. I know there are a couple other comments about Kean on this thread - and I know it's not in LA - but I would like to elaborate a little, if you will. First of all, with all due respect to DU (who is the first chowster I ever put on my reading list and whose opinion I very much respect) has said, I believe their heart and soul is in drip, not espresso. This is accounted for first and foremost by Martin's philosophy as regards to roast. He will tell you that he roasts each coffee on a case-by-case basis, giving it as much or as little as he feels appropriate. Some bags are labeled "light roast," others "medium," "full." In practice, however, everything short of the Carl's Blend is pretty light when you compare it to everything else. Because of this, and their emphasis on single-origin and estate coffees, I think Kean offers a style more suited to drip than espresso, which usually demands a darker roast. The espresso, although they do do it well, does seem to lack some of the sap and sweetness you might find elsewhere - say, maybe, Caffe Umbria from Seattle, or Intelligentsia - but it makes up for it in lively acidity and aromatic complexity. They may 'do more' with espresso, but I imagine that has more to do with the impracticality of brewing more than one variety of drip coffee at a time, or brewing it to order. Kean, incidentally, is named for the son of Martin and Karen Diedrich. After the expansion and subsequent dilution of the Diedrich coffee empire (small empire, but still an empire of sorts - they are still in the wholesale/restaurant business), Martin wanted to return to his roots and do something more like they did in the old days when they were on 17th St. in Costa Mesa - an artisinal micro-roaster serving their local community. I do really think they are really something special, and I feel fortunate to have them in my back yard. Wed Mar 18 23:16:34 -0700 2009 4435686 56801 georgempavlov 1 4518557 Just noticing that there's been no mention of Kings Road here, and curious where that falls in the carnage? I believe they only do one bean there, and it's an extremely dark roast -- burnt I imagine many would say. But it's damn popular with the locals. Are any of the purists here fans? Or if not, why? Thu Mar 19 03:02:23 -0700 2009 4435686 127538 wutzizname 1 4530752 I was just thinking this morning, after I realized that I had run out of Monkey and Sons Krakatoa blend and the La Mill Rwandan beans had gotten a bit stale, that the only Intelligentsia I had around was the single-estate Peruvian decaf and there was only enough of the Salvadoran coffee from Mama's Hot Tamales for a half pot, and I was forced to settle - settle! - for a pot brewed from the Peet's Major Dickason beans that I used to spend great amounts of money mail-ordering every couple of weeks, that perhaps Los Angeles is not such a miserable coffee town after all. Mon Mar 23 13:34:53 -0700 2009 4435686 10702 condiment 2 4530868 You don't have to mail-order Peet's -- they're EVERYWHERE. Mon Mar 23 13:58:03 -0700 2009 4530752 10811 Das Ubergeek 3 4531038 On behalf of condiment, I believe the key words were "used to" pointing out that now even Peet's is here so there's no need to mail order anything -- we have plenty of good beans in town. Mon Mar 23 14:45:32 -0700 2009 4530868 127538 wutzizname 4 4532422 Indeed. These days, you can even buy Peet's beans at Von's. Tue Mar 24 00:50:19 -0700 2009 4531038 10702 condiment 5 4532433 ... And Von's pastries at Peet's! I just made that up, but why can't more coffee shops provide appropriate top-quality eats, as, e.g., Jones Coffee does (pastries from Ap-petite)? Why not, depending on the part of town, donuts from the Donut Man or Randy's? Why not guava-cream-cheese strudel or fruit turnovers from Porto's? Thick-cut cinnamon toast from Junior's? Etc. I sense a good business opportunity for someone with a converted taco truck. Park outside some of the best coffee shops discussed in this thread, and sell great donuts, fritters, and other pastries to the scheming masses. Tue Mar 24 01:38:31 -0700 2009 4532422 77350 sbritchky 6 4533432 “I just made that up,” LOL. Ah, about having some appropriate top-quality eats with your good coffee... The Peach café has American breakfast, some bakery items, light and fluffy pancakes with a hint of orange, a great sandwich list and a handmade burger all served with your choice of coffee from the coffee menu. Try the House blend. The Peach / food and coffee menus http://www.thepeachcafe.com/ El Jacal has Mexican breakfast and asada or shrimp tacos with some very good Mexican coffee with a hint of cinnamon in it. Oye, vato,I just bearly came from there. Check this out, for my breakfast this morning I had a bowl full of great fresh made chips and salsas, Huevos Rancheros with a perfect ranchero sauce, and excellent house made corn tortillas along with two cups of that great coffee for only $7.03 before tip. You can't beat that ese, not even with a stick. El Jacal – Mexican coffee. http://www.chow.com/places/10844?tag=search_results;results_list Tue Mar 24 09:57:59 -0700 2009 4532433 90917 JeetJet 7 4534468 El Jacal is another place I go by all the time without ever stopping. Sounds like a winner, because you rarely find "great coffee" with Mexican breakfast, even though the two were made for each other. Tue Mar 24 14:21:17 -0700 2009 4533432 77350 sbritchky 8 4534702 I made the stop today because I wanted the chips and salsa. The red salsa is really good. Those corn tortillas are thick with just the right chew. I ask them to blacken them a little -- just a little.That coffee with cinnamon was the reason I made a number of stops over the wenter. On a cold morning it hits the spot. Tue Mar 24 15:23:29 -0700 2009 4534468 90917 JeetJet 6 4535565 About the desire for cakes and pastries. I lke the coffee at Auntie Em's so that when I am there I sit nearf the pump-pot. While sitting there I have noticed it is refilled often http://www.auntieemskitchen.com/home.html Tue Mar 24 20:31:09 -0700 2009 4532433 90917 JeetJet 7 4545032 I like the hazelnut frapps or ice blends from coffee bean!!! Real talk! Fri Mar 27 16:49:15 -0700 2009 4535565 247706 Poeticalmath 2 4533021 Have you tried Peet's french roast? As dark as Major D but a bit more complex imo. Tue Mar 24 08:08:37 -0700 2009 4530752 18466 a_and_w 1 4544955 Ah, this is so great to have a discussion on: I have to say that there is a philosophical, technical, and literal difference when having a discussion on drip coffee, espresso, and espresso based drinks. So, for the purpose of the OP's post, let's talk about drip coffee. 1. Groundwork (no S): I disagree that Groundwork has fresh coffee and great roasted coffee. I think they USED to but that company has endured a lot of internal turmoil and have really slipped in the last few years. Part of that, in my opinion, is too much expansion too quickly. Trying to duplicate their success in multiple locations and now the quality suffers. Plus, their baristas aren't as skilled as other locations and I don't feel the love. 2. Conservatory-spot on assessment. 3. Intelligentsia (with an S): The pinnacle of espresso love and passion in LA. They have the best baristas with the trophy case and the youtube videos to prove it. They excel at espresso. With that said, they do buy some of the best beans around for drip, but I don't know if they execute it as such. Drip coffees almost seem like an after thought sometimes. As for single extraction, I think a lot of people will do that, you just have to ask. 4. LAMILL: The coffee here is definitely NOT an after thought and I'm not sure how many times you've been, but they do more with drip offerings than anyone else in LA. Intelligentsia kicks their butt in pure espresso (Black Cat Blend) but LAMILL excels in single estate, varietally sourced beans. Example: You can order an Organic Guatemala El Soccoro Cup of Excellence coffee ($49.00 /lb.) and then have it prepared in a french press, siphon, chemex, eva solo, or Clover cup. Each will give you a different mouth feel, sediment, solids content, etc. Ask them to extract anyone of those beans as an espresso too and you may just find them willing to do that. Part of the problem/challenge here is that FOOD is more of a focus than a coffee-haven like Intelli, or Kean, or Groundwork where food is an after thought and where a Michelin starred chef doesn't have anything to do with the places, let alone designing and instituting the menu like at Lamill...with that said, sometimes the focus is too much on the food and that takes away from the coffee experience. 5. The Fix: drip coffee should ALWAYS be brewed to order, by the cup, or the press, whenever possible. Holding coffee in a carafe, thermal or not, is a sin. Coffee degrades the minute the brewing cycle is complete. If the carafe is on a heat-source, then forget it, you're COOKING the coffee..yuck. Just a few notes on your posts: Blue Bottle is awesome! Their 'melitta' bar is awesome and a work of art to boot. NYC does have Intelligentsia now and a few other indie, SCAA based coffee companies, you just have to scour, and ask the locals. You mention single-estate light roasted coffees...and I can tell they make you smile....Roasting coffee too dark will always eliminate the nuances and layers of a coffee. The exothermic reaction that takes place in the bean itself literally changes the composition of the bean and once you hit the '2nd crack', in my opinion, the coffee is starting to lose its nuance, and is best served for blending, or as a component in blending and espresso. I think you truly mean medium roasted coffees are your favorites...Light roasted coffees can sometimes be underdeveloped, especially if the roaster isn't an expert at time-management and temperature control of the roasting cycle. Somewhere between that first and second crack is where the magic happens. Some of the best coffees I've ever had are best experienced right at the beginning of what we'd call a medium roast, fully developed, full of complexity, nuance, and layers....all of which continue to evolve as the coffee cools...especially if you're enjoying it in a chemex....mmm. LOVE this thread, so thanks for starting it. Fri Mar 27 15:56:11 -0700 2009 4435686 13771 peanut112 2 4545103 If by "single extraction" at Intelli you mean a single espresso, they will NOT do it. Fri Mar 27 17:14:01 -0700 2009 4544955 74905 jaykayen 3 4545533 Actually, if you ask for an espresso they give a single ristretto. Fri Mar 27 21:04:13 -0700 2009 4545103 105839 aventinus 3 4555820 no by single extraction, it was referring back to part of the OP's post about single estate coffees being extracted. Single espressos rightly shouldn't be pulled....in my opinion Tue Mar 31 17:11:51 -0700 2009 4545103 13771 peanut112 2 4545537 Calling the coffee at La Mill an "afterthought" is so ludicrous as to smack of trolling. I'm surprised so many people went along with the original post. The food there is pretty good, but it's clear that the coffee is the focal point and the strength. I agree with your post. Groundwork = meh. Conservatory = decent, not aiming for the heights (but I like their unique nutty roast). Intelligentsia and La Mill serve seriously good coffee. I know that Intelligentsia does take the brewed coffee more seriously than you suggest, though arguably La Mill has them beat in that category. Fri Mar 27 21:05:40 -0700 2009 4544955 105839 aventinus 1 4554479 To Blue Bottle fans: please note the smidgen of possibility of Blue Bottle in the future, if we ask for it, as discussed here: http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/608324#4554475 Tue Mar 31 10:27:23 -0700 2009 4435686 14404 Thi N. 2 4636325 Great thread! A couple questions. If I order Blue Bottle, what is the best way to brew it at home? Next, Urth Cafe wasn't mentioned yet. What are the thoughts on Urth? Tue Apr 28 12:12:12 -0700 2009 4554479 286928 boostingbars 3 4636431 Urth, like so many LA places, makes really good mixed drinks - I mean, with steamed milk and stuff. Their steaming arts seem to be high. The coffee underneath is... decent. The supreme Urth Drink is probably, like, the Soy Chai Latte. It's actually really good! I'm not knockin' it! It's just the spiritual opposite of pure, unadulterated coffee. Blue Bottle and other light-roast stuff responds will to various drip methods - french press, chemex, etc. My two favorites are kind of weird: a vacuum bottle (you can get a cheap Yama one from Intelligentsia) and an Aeropress (you can only get it online, as far as I know - anybody know different?). Aeropress is my most commonly used one. I tend to dig the non-espresso methods for maximum varietal opening. The vacuum bottle seems to favor high citrus/wine flavors (like Kenyans and Ehtiopians) - and its smooths out stuff - and the Aeropress tends to emphasize big/symphonic/warm flavors, and is less smooth, and brings up complexity. Intelligentsia, though, roasts its single-estates for the espresso machine. Despite the fact that I tend to prefer non-espresso methods for single estates, I always dig their varietal espresso over their varietal drips. I just think their soul is in espresso. Tue Apr 28 12:38:15 -0700 2009 4636325 14404 Thi N. 4 4636736 I bought an AeroPress a few weeks ago at Sur La Table. Below is a link to the manufacturer's website, and another to their list of retailers. http://www.aerobie.com/Products/aeropress_story.htm http://www.aerobie.com/Products/aeropress_usa_retailers.htm Tue Apr 28 13:53:11 -0700 2009 4636431 127538 wutzizname 3 4637871 I buy most of my beans from Blue Bottle, usually online but sometimes at the 'Mint Bldg' shop. While I love their products, I'm not a fan of the descriptions on their website. The descriptions are a bit ecclectic and it is often difficult to determine the roast level. It's true that they are known as a 'new wave' roaster and lean to lighter roasts but they do roast to different levels. That said, they do indicate the preferred brew methods for each bean. They also have tutorials on each brew method, I usually use their single cup drip method (90% of the time) and love my result. I also use French press, AeroPress and pull ok shots with a Coffee Gaggia but I'm saving for a Mazzer Mini Grinder and may also upgrade my Gaggia. And I'd like to try home roasting................damm I love good coffee! Tue Apr 28 21:02:09 -0700 2009 4636325 10864 sel 1 4646980 Thi, I am sure you're very aware of this, but for those who aren't, there's some serious Joe finally coming to Venice: http://www.intelligentsiacoffee.com/locations/view/Venice+Coffeebar http://www.latimes.com/features/food/la-fo-intelligentsia29-2009apr29,0,7990950.story Whether it actually opens this month, I'm not sure, but the construction crew has been pounding nails into the night. Fri May 01 17:13:01 -0700 2009 4435686 64003 bulavinaka 1 4647635 I like coffee and sometimes I need a cup right now. My taste changes from time-to-time and therefore I usually have several kinds of fresh beans stashed at home. For example, I have some beans from Kenya, some Jamaica Blue Mountain and always some Pannikin. If I can’t find a good cup of coffee when driving I will go into withdrawal. During one coffee fit about a month ago I stopped at 7-Eleven and noticed that Hot Beverage Bar set-up. I have ignored that section of 7-Eleven for many years because of a bad tasting cup I once had way back when they first started selling coffee. But that self-serve coffee bar impressed me because I noticed many coffee grinders filled with different kinds of fresh beans. I smelled each of the differently labeled pots and then decided to pull a cup from the dispenser. I poured just a little of the dark Brazilian for a sip (good, but too strong for me), then the “Regular” (I think this is the same stuff that I did not like years ago) and finally the “100 percent Colombian” – OMG, Just right! Bottom line, I have begun my day at least four times each week since then with a medium size cup of “100 percent Colombian” coffee at 7 – Eleven for about $1,50 and still have most of my home stash intact. My question is, $ 4 $, can you beat that quality, freshness and flavor? Sat May 02 03:33:35 -0700 2009 4435686 90917 JeetJet 2 4656059 The answer to that question is YES, a $4.00 coffee can beat that 7/11 $1.50 coffee in quality, freshness and flavor (although the last one is more subjective). Quality: From farm to cup, the coffee purchased by 7/11 is of an inferior quality than that of specialty coffee companies such as La Mill and Intelligentsia and a multitude of others. If you have questions, go to the Specialty Coffee Association of America, or SCAA's website. You won't find 7/11 as a member. Their coffee doesn't qualify. And why would it? When you're purchasing 100's, if not 1000's of different products, you don't specialize in ONE kind of thing. I certainly wouldn't start comparing the meat products I buy at the 99 cent store to the ones I'd get directly from a butcher, or Whole Foods, or directly at a restaurant. Freshness: Freshness can be discussed in two ways, the freshness of the bean, and the freshness of the brew, and indeed a third way, the freshness of the grind. All specialty coffee companies roast to order, roast minimum amounts of inventory and at the end user level are instructed to grind to order only. Coffee SHOULD be rotated and brewed every 20 minutes, or at least every hour. I guarantee that does not happen on a regular basis at 7/11. Flavor: This one is subjective. To each their own. Tue May 05 10:35:35 -0700 2009 4647635 13771 peanut112 3 4669419 I agree that flavor is subjective and “To each their own.” I like most “100% Colombian” coffee at most places but Starbucks, for example, has no coffee I like at any price – it’s the flavor. I do not agree that 7-Eleven’s 100% Colombian or Brazilian Bold are, by any standard, inferior quality coffees. Try them! Your concern of 7-Eleven offering a number of products, and “not specializing in ONE kind of thing,” is a red hearing. Sales volume / turnover are more related to buying power of a fresh quality product at the best price and 7-Eleven sells one million cups of coffee each day. For example, the same is true with buying the freshest, purest and most wholesome milk. Los Angeles 7-Eleven stores offer Alta-Dena Milk (local high quality milk) usually at a better price than even large supermarkets or drive-through dairies. The freshness cannot be beat with daily deliveries. Checkout the expiration dates on the milk at 7-Eleven and compare. The beer prices are sometimes hard to beat also. Think of 7-Eleven as a high volume beverage store which offers many fresh locally produced drinks. The same freshness is true with the coffee beans which are ground seconds before they are continually brewed at the store. They will brew a fresh pot if it is not fresh. IMO, $4.00 coffee cannot beat that $1.50 coffee (2 or 3 times more?) in quality, freshness and flavor at 7-Eleven. I am sure there are people who would pay $10 for a gallon of milk someplace but count me out of that also. Sat May 09 15:53:26 -0700 2009 4656059 90917 JeetJet 4 4695009 Jeet, I simply cannot agree with you. a)the coffees that 7/11 purchases, by nature, ARE inferior coffees, simply based upon the green coffee they purchase and the estates they purchase from. Yes, Charles Shaw is wine and to some a perfectly fine wine, but Opus it is not. b)My point of 7/11 purchasing a number of products is not a red herring (or hearing, if you like), because my intention is not to "distract attention from the main issue" which is the widely accepted definition of red herring. Rather, the fact that they purchase an incredibly perishable product such as coffee, along with scotch tape, pringles, etc. or even quasi-perishable products like beer is exactly the issue in question. Milk isn't even in the same category because milk has a definitive shelf-life that is stamped on the jug itself, unlike coffee which will usually have a roast date. c)Furthermore, the storage of coffee is an issue, the brewing of coffee is an issue, the quality of the grind, the quality of the water in use, and the mere fact that MOST 7/11's are brewing on a typical carafe burner which continues to keep the coffee on a heat-source, makes it an inferior product. Simply refer to the guidelines of the SCAA to find out what makes a specialty, well....special. Because a company has purchasing power, does not make it an authority on a product. Not one 7/11 employee (and I'm generalizing now) is a specialized barista...I challenge anyone to prove me wrong on that. And you may say, well, they aren't making espresso drinks, so they don't need to be baristas....well, until an employee of 7/11 can tell me the TDS of the water and the grains of hardness in the water, then they don't know enough about their coffee. Mon May 18 14:06:39 -0700 2009 4669419 13771 peanut112 5 4717769 Big’o Red fish! But since you mentioned it, I asked. Fresh roast delivered everyday in the amount expected to be consumed. Fresh ground when every fresh pot is brewed with filtered water – continuously 24/7. Bottom line, this is good and I don’t need anyone, including some coffeehouse counter person (most often a green floppy eared kid), some coffee dot com guidelines, or even a silicone diode for that matter, to verify that for me. That brings me to another point. I trust most Chowhounds and spend lots of time trying things I read about here. Now, if we start down a road of requiring some other dot.com “guidelines” to be met, and not just the posters opinion, then we don’t need to post here at all because, in that mind-set, what really matters is what the guidelines say. Therefore, I would respect your reply more if someplace in them you mentioned that you tried the 100 percent Colombian but in YOUR opinion… I think you missed the gist of my reply to the OP. I believe what makes a good cook, or good bartender, worth their salt is what they can serve for a lower price rather than a higher price. My reasoning is that anyone can charge a high price and serve something better than average but it takes some true talent, or maybe just high buying power, to serve a better than average product for a lower price. It is with that in mind that I feel that this 20 oz. cup of 100 percent Colombian for $1.59 sets the bar. Oh, I forgot to mention that in addition to the great flavor, this cup makes me feel warm and good inside about five minutes after I finish it. I look forward to stopping at the Lower Azusa and El Monte Ave. location everyday now because that location has so much pride in keeping every pot fresh and the coffee bar so clean . Wed May 27 01:47:16 -0700 2009 4695009 90917 JeetJet 1 4654131 I'm no coffee expert, and this is not quite in L.A., but this weekend I did notice that Koffi in Palm Springs offers brewed-to-order single varietal coffees. I believe there were 4-5 choices under the label Red Estate, or something to that effect. Sorry for the absence of details--again, I'm no coffee aficianado!-- but I thought this might interest some people reading this thread. Mon May 04 17:06:51 -0700 2009 4435686 58823 mmmmangos 2 4656300 Anyone know when the new Intelligentsia is opening on AK? http://www.latimes.com/features/food/la-fo-intelligentsia29-2009apr29,0,7990950.story Tue May 05 11:35:35 -0700 2009 4654131 243726 dinvenice 3 4661597 I recently asked some friends who work at the Silverlake store, and they said the new date is supposed to be May 15 (but they hesitated, so I'm not sure if it'll be delayed again or ???) Thu May 07 00:20:18 -0700 2009 4656300 33727 patz 4 4667715 All I could get from a few contractors at the site was some time this month. The rough work is done - it's all the painstaking finish work that is being done now. Fri May 08 19:36:59 -0700 2009 4661597 64003 bulavinaka 5 4683401 now they're saying the end of this month, so who knows! Thu May 14 09:51:53 -0700 2009 4667715 33727 patz 6 4685266 Asked another contractor today - two weeks is the goal. I think they've even installed a rooftop deck on this place. The entrance has some interesting amphitheatre-style benches made of cedar. This place will have no reference point that I am familiar with... Thu May 14 18:58:15 -0700 2009 4683401 64003 bulavinaka 7 4703705 Opening party tomorrow (Friday) 8pm til late. Free coffee, wine from Silverlate Wine, food, etc. Thu May 21 09:57:38 -0700 2009 4685266 243726 dinvenice 8 4705640 yes - i'll be there too! Thu May 21 22:43:36 -0700 2009 4703705 33727 patz 7 4741041 Kyle says,"Hopefully the end of this week or the beginning of this week..." Place looks like a fantasy set-up for baristas-gone-mad... Wed Jun 03 20:57:19 -0700 2009 4685266 64003 bulavinaka 1 4694487 Blue Bottle Coffee Company = coffee sex. Mon May 18 11:59:52 -0700 2009 4435686 13235 lotta_cox 2 4694800 Good way to put it. Yes, it is (coffee sex). Mon May 18 13:11:49 -0700 2009 4694487 65821 Golem 2 4712022 Every time I drink Blue Bottle coffee I want to french kiss myself. Sun May 24 21:26:36 -0700 2009 4694487 161870 Cinemaverite1 1 4695731 I was at Blue Bottle West Oakland coffee "pick up" point last week, the the guy said that they are working on a deal to distribute their beans in LA. I'm addicted to Bella Donovan now and can't wait (but agreed the coffee is very finicky and need to be prepare in very precise manner at home to get it right). Any one got further news ... when can we expect to see blue bottle beans in LA? Mon May 18 18:30:22 -0700 2009 4435686 128304 keepon 1 4696158 In my opinion La Mill and Intelligentsia are LA's best. But there are some local nieghborhood coffe houses that have a barista that knows their shit. So they know cupping and roasting are key to a good pull of esspresso and they buy their beans from Coffee Klatch, Jones , or Intelligentsia. A couple years ago I invested $3000 in my own esspreso setup and it quickly pain for itself. I am good in the morning for a couple double shots but my wife was hitting up Peets or Starbucks 3 times a day ! I have an Expobar Brewtusll plumbed-in with an RO and everclear carbon filter on 20 amp timer so its already on and ready when I get up. Mazer P grinder. Usually I brew organic beans from Ecco Caffe out of Santa Rosa, master cupper and roaster Andrew Barnett is phenomenal, and he has some extraordinary experimental, single origin and limited relaese. Also we use beans from the local Coffee Klatch (Perry Family)or Inteligentsia or Jones (in that order). Bottom line: I can pull the best shot in LA ;-) Mon May 18 21:47:42 -0700 2009 4435686 145565 Sarsa 1 4696192 I'm in Vancouver right now and the average cuppa joe is so far superior to a cup at home it's sad. There are a couple places with coffee so good it made me wistful -- as I bought beans to take home. LA's not a coffee city the way Van, Seattle and Portland are. It'll just be like NY pizza -- celebrate that which comes closest in LA, and get fixes of "di emeseh" when travelling. Mon May 18 22:16:08 -0700 2009 4435686 10811 Das Ubergeek 1 4707608 this was such an exciting post for me to read as my first foray back into chowhound after being gone for over 4 months! having been temporarily located in utah county, utah, where finding even a starbucks required google map searches and a bus ride, coffee has pervaded my mind constantly. that being said, as a former resident of seattle and lover of coffee, luxxe is pretty damn good. if i lived closer to santa monica, i'd probably hit it a couple of times a day. (i know you're addressing drip and espresso, but if you get a cappuccino there, they do the most beautiful example of microfoam - not the fluffy aerated stuff that caps everything at starbucks.) the coffee is smooth, coats the tongue with its richness, and has a fully saturated flavor. very lovely. i also like king's road, which i do hit daily. but i think their roast is extremely dark and better serves the purpose of either iced coffee or mixed with milk for espresso drinks. it's a dark and smooth without being bitter, but has lost some of the complexity of its flavor to be enjoyed plain. it's just a little too earthy and smoky by this point to be enjoyed with being tempered down to bring out its coffee-ness. Fri May 22 15:34:44 -0700 2009 4435686 174054 trishyb 1 4707964 I just had a really nice espresso at The Talking Stick Coffee Lounge in Venice. Fri May 22 17:51:25 -0700 2009 4435686 10811 Das Ubergeek 2 4708014 DU, how do you find out about these places?!?! Geez - you're living in the OC now but you end up on the back corner of a little strip mall off Lincoln sipping espresso? :) Fri May 22 18:08:33 -0700 2009 4707964 64003 bulavinaka 3 4709331 Serendipity, honestly -- I stopped at the Chase next door on the way to Santa Monica, did my banking, had to use the loo and the El Pollo Loco next door lock theirs with tokens. Given the choice of spending a little money at EPL or at an independent coffee house, there was no contest -- and my reward was a really good cup of coffee and a friendly chat with a barista in a very industrial-chic little coffee "lounge" that one would have to know about to find. :) If Chase had lavatories for their customers, I'd never have set foot. Sat May 23 13:36:10 -0700 2009 4708014 10811 Das Ubergeek 4 4709464 They've been putting this one together for a little while now - truly a sweat-equity project. Been dropping by the same Chase regularly and have been watching them get things together slowly but surely. I'll have to drop in there a give them a lookover. I've been hesitant because I wasn't sure if they were connected with the church that had been in that space for a couple of years. Nothing against religion - just wasn't sure if a dose of fire & brimstone was going to accompany my latte. Sat May 23 14:41:22 -0700 2009 4709331 64003 bulavinaka 5 4709476 I didn't see any evidence of incipient proselytism, which would have put me off too. Just a poetry-slam corner. Sat May 23 14:48:23 -0700 2009 4709464 10811 Das Ubergeek 3 4709337 Link, because I think it's worth further investigation (if not by me, then by others in the area): Sat May 23 13:38:02 -0700 2009 4708014 10811 Das Ubergeek 1 4709014 I have to agree with you on Intelligencia. But the main thing that makes their coffee sub-par is the stank hipster attitude that comes free with every purchase. I'll pay $3 bucks for 8 ounces of coffee, no problem if the outing is a pleasurable one. This joint seems to look for ways to be unhelpful and unfriendly. I won't pay for rude regardless of how hip the people in line are. Plus, a Ryan Seacrest sighting put Intelligencia on my "Never Again" list for good. Sat May 23 10:22:07 -0700 2009 4435686 129080 peachmahoney 2 4709468 maybe there is a benefit to my being oblivious to celebrities. i wouldn't recognize ryan seacrest if he bit me on the toe. . . . does this mean that i should make the trip to try intelligensia/ Sat May 23 14:45:31 -0700 2009 4709014 11935 westsidegal 3 4711079 westsidegal -- Make the trip to LaMill. Sit at the counter and order a cup of Clover Panama Esmeralda. Sun May 24 13:20:56 -0700 2009 4709468 14014 liu 1 4715733 Woah... I'm super-glad this thread is still going. Some things have happened since I last posted: 1. I went to Kean Coffee, a new branch. It was... OK. Pretty good coffee. When I asked for a french-pressed cup, they didn't know what they had available that day, and when I asked for a Tanzanian that they had listed on the menu, they had to run around seeing if they had any. There was rummaging and confusion and some shouting. I had the feeling that not many people asked for this sort of thing. They eventually produced a cup of pretty good coffee. Properly made, but... slight burnt taste, and the flavor suddenly tails off after 30 seconds and disappears. Slightly weak and flat and bodiless. It's definitely in the direction of good coffee. But not good enough for me, to, say, actually finish my cup. 2. Groundworks has gotten even worse. 3. I've been back to La Mill, twice, and got Ira, my fellow fiend in Chinese teas, bourbons, and single-origin-everything (he's the person that introduced me single-estate chocolates) to go. I had the same feeling as before: everything looks right, everybody's going through the proper motions to make great coffee, but the coffee seems a little lifeless. Ira's comment: he was pretty surprised by how boring his coffee was, and it seemed to him that nobodyworking there really cared about the coffee. I went back and chatted up some of the baristas and kind of had the same feeling: they could recite off a few facts, but they didn't *care*. I had a sense that their knowledge sort of ended after a paragraph of material they were supposed to memorize. The baristas at Blue Bottle, and at Intelligentsia (and some of the folks that used to work at Groundworks, long ago, when it was great) really cared - you get the sense that you could talk to them for *hours* about coffee. (In fact, the last time I was at Blue Bottle, the new SF branch with the siphon stuff, I actually did talk to the lady in charge of the siphon for an hour. She went on break, came around, sat with us, and started talking about Yemenis We Have Known) Look: here's what I mean. Things I've seen at Blue Bottle and at our Intelligentsia: I've seen, at BB, the siphon person sniffing each set of wet grounds. I've seen her pouring little bits of each prep and tasting. I've seen her adjust to what she tasted before, saying that each new day's roast was a little different. I've seen her discard and start over. At Intelligentsia, I've seen baristas look suspiciously at the crema of a pulled shot, taste it, make a face, discard it, apologize to the customer, and start re-adjusting their machinery and playing around with the grinder, pull another shot, pass it around, comment to each other that something was still wrong, and do it again. Right? They *care*. I haven't seen this at La Mill, although, to be honest, I haven't hung around there as much, since I don't love the coffee. Let me be clear: I'm not saying La Mill is *bad* coffee. It's pretty good coffee. It's just not coffee made with love and intensity and care, to pull out each possible nuance from the bean. It's not coffee that I can stare into and savor for the entire time. It doesn't make me glow. 4. The above thoughts about *caring* lead me to another thought, which is about the fact that Intelligentsia baristas are often pretty unfriendly, and La Mill baristas are pretty nice. This is pretty true, as far as I can tell. In fact, looking back through my memory-files, most of the places I've had really great coffee have involved... well, not the nicest of service. Occasionally I get somebody a little mind-meldy and we can talk, but there's a lot of gruffness, a lot of social oddity, and not much in the way of nice *service*. I have a theory: unlike the restaurant world, where the chefs are in the kitchen and the waiters are out front, in the coffee world, *your server is your coffee-maker*. So you have a choice, in hiring: you can hire for spectacular makers of coffee, or you can hire for sociable, friendly, service-oriented folks. And the two don't necessarily go together. In fact, they may sort of anti-correlate - really great cooking is often associated, in my mind, with obsessiveness, near-autisticness, and anti-social intensity. I've known a lot of asshole chefs - or, more often, really great chefs that are a little too weird to really be let out of the house much. And, I think there's also something in what attracts people to be obsessed with coffee. The sort of high-octane, buzzed-up, wired, slightly aggressive edge of coffee attracts similar people. It's not coincidence that most of the great cooks of Southern-soul food are actually really nice people, and the serious pastry chefs I know are a little... weird. Soul food cooking demands generosity of spirit, and high-level pastry baking requires... precision and obsessiveness. So I have a feeling... just a gut feeling... that Intelligentsia picked the best makers of coffee it could find - people who were, on their own, serious coffee obsessesives, and La Mill selected personable, friendly folk and then trained them for what they needed to know to make coffee. But this is just a guess. And obsessives - well, they're a lot like me, and maybe like you. We know way more than we should about certain topics, we may be pretty good at executing it, but sometimes we get a little weird when people actually, you know, talk to us. This is speculation, but it's sufficiently interesting that it almost makes me want to start a blog. 5. For you folks that make coffee at home, my two favorite (and quite affordable) coffee making apparatuses are now available in LA. As somebody mentioned above, Aero Presses are now available at Sur La Table, and Intelligentsia carries Yama Vacuum Pots - which are slightly lower tech versions of those famous siphon machines that everybody talks about. (Most of the famous vacuum pots are beautiful hand blown glass affairs, and, like, hundreds of dollars. Yama is the mass-production Japanese version - works just as well, and costs $50.) I like aero presses for more intense, full-bodied, complex tastes (like Yemenis and Mokas) and vacuum pots for more pure, clean flavors - also for ones that want a high-wine/citrus emphasis (Kenyans, some Ethiopians, Central American stuff, generally speaking). Tue May 26 11:15:33 -0700 2009 4435686 14404 Thi N. 2 4715750 Great post, and great report, Thi! You have really put your heart and soul into this one...and it shows! Tue May 26 11:21:56 -0700 2009 4715733 14014 liu 3 4716405 Thi is a "caf-fiend" without a doubt. ;-D> Tue May 26 14:18:26 -0700 2009 4715750 108169 Servorg 2 4871900 OP says: "This is speculation, but it's sufficiently interesting that it almost makes me want to start a blog." As you should. You certainly write well enough! Sun Jul 19 12:22:09 -0700 2009 4715733 15807 Steve Green 1 4720069 You need to check out this place near downtown, called Cafe Corsa. Might give back some of your belief in good coffee in LA. Wed May 27 16:18:01 -0700 2009 4435686 323527 jaynine 2 4907268 I consider Cafe Corsa to be the Mecca of coffeehouses for coffee lovers, better than La Mill, better than Intelligentsia. The owner, Rick, brews every cup of coffee individually (he has a Clover machine and actually knows how to use it). He will let you smell all the varietals he has, enthusiastically discussing the merits of each one. The espresso is good but nothing to write home about--but you don't go to Cafe Corsa for the espresso, you go for the coffee. 2238 S Figueroa St Los Angeles, CA 90007 (213) 746-2604 Fri Jul 31 14:03:02 -0700 2009 4720069 21594 nine.circles 1 4741159 Just gonna stick out my neck and put this out there... ...IKEA has really good (drip) coffee. Really, really good. It's one of those anomalies of Burbank, like the best iced tea being at Corner Bakery. Wed Jun 03 22:31:33 -0700 2009 4435686 10811 Das Ubergeek 2 4741201 Two places I need to get myself to... Corner Bakery that just opened on La Cienega across from Beverly Center and IKEA...now I guess for their coffee. Thanks for the reminder. Wed Jun 03 23:24:48 -0700 2009 4741159 239340 latindancer 2 4741251 I hate IKEA!!! Especially the zombie zoo so very crowded store in Burbank. GF loves the place, if she reads your post..... Coffee can't be that good, can it??? Thu Jun 04 00:38:59 -0700 2009 4741159 10864 sel 3 4741519 The coffee is good enough that I go there sometimes specifically for it. You can get to the restaurant without having to walk through the Hell that is their store.., Thu Jun 04 06:22:27 -0700 2009 4741251 10811 Das Ubergeek 4 4741776 I agree...I've gone there during the week at lunchtime (the very best time to go ) to Man Shop for something ( go directly to desired item, buy, leave) and had lunch in the cafeteria, and their coffee is pretty darn good. Maybe not Blue Bottle good, but very good. Do they sell it there in whole bean? ( the time I thought about buying some to take home all I could find was already ground) Thu Jun 04 07:52:17 -0700 2009 4741519 293874 christoofat 5 4741910 I'm not sure. If they did it would be in the Sweden Shop downstairs near the exit. And I absolutely hear you on the Man Shopping -- "okay. we need a table from the same set as the bed. Look at map; plot quickest way; get food and coffee; pay; leave." Thu Jun 04 08:32:09 -0700 2009 4741776 10811 Das Ubergeek 6 4742808 Tried that shrimp and egg sammy on rye for 3$ - it's the bomb! Goes great w/the coffee - I'd go to IKEA just for those two items. Thu Jun 04 12:58:46 -0700 2009 4741910 11934 Kitchen Queen 7 4777420 mmmmm..that does sound good! Got a chance to get over to Javatini's last week at Main & Sunflower. Very cool concept! I phone ordered 2 pounds, and they were ready for me when I got there. Their website only lists 1/2 of the coffees they offer (d'oh!) The beans were great, although $12.95 for 12oz bags is a bit high, I think. Also picked up an Aeropress from Amazon (free shipping), and so far I really like it. Well designed, easy to use, and it produces a darn good cup of coffee. Next on my coffee list is to try out Dean's Beans, who sells at the Irvine Farmers Market on Saturdays. http://www.deansbeans.com/coffee/index.html Tue Jun 16 08:20:03 -0700 2009 4742808 293874 christoofat 8 4780768 hmm...did a little more research on Dean's Beans, turns out they actually are based in Massachusetts, so that adds a week of transit time after beans are shipped. So much for "fresh" roasts... Wed Jun 17 07:27:36 -0700 2009 4777420 293874 christoofat 1 4779259 Hi all! Wow, everyone is so knowledgable! Anyway, Joni's Coffee Roaster Cafe in Marina Del Rey has really great coffee (I think!) and they brew it for you on the spot, one cup at a time so its always fresh! Stay away from the carafe for refills though! Tue Jun 16 16:05:17 -0700 2009 4435686 1082302 Yes Please 1 4870991 I went to the "Venice Beach Rides for the Community" car-motorcycle-bicycle show today and stopped in at Groundworks on Rose and 6th. A very good cup of coffee but not earth-shattering. Still, I'd travel to have their coffee. Sat Jul 18 20:42:18 -0700 2009 4435686 10811 Das Ubergeek 1 4872650 Today I went to Intelligentsia at Sunset and Hyperion. A great -- GREAT -- shot of espresso. But I had to try not to laugh out loud at the "palate cleanser" of sparkling water served before the shot. I mean, I'm not sure what's worse -- the unironic pretension of the thing or the fact that it worked. Sun Jul 19 18:33:15 -0700 2009 4435686 10811 Das Ubergeek 2 4874812 Totally works - I go back and forth between sips of sparkling water and sips of espresso - I think it opens up the flavor, sort of like adding a drop of water to bourbon. It particularly opens up the single-estate espresso shots. Things are pretentious if they *pretend*. This is just a useful thing I didn't know about. I've been accused of being pretentious for insisting people go to San Gabriel instead of P.F. Chang's... ALSO: I've been to the Intelligentsia on Venice a few times now, and it confirms a certain theory of mine. The service is much friendlier and less weirdo-asshole than the service at Sunset Intelligetnsia. Venice Intelligentsia people actually make me feel like a human being. And: ff the 3 shots I've had at Venice, all have been inferior - one had sediment, another was... somehow muted, the last was somehow flatter in feel. Confirms my suspicion that with super-hardcore coffee places, you have a choice: hire people for customer service ability, or hire people for coffee obsessiveness. The kind of severe intensity and geekiness required to pull off perfect espresso and perfect espresso is not often that compatible with, you know, human warmth. I'll take weird asociality and perfect espresso any day. Mon Jul 20 13:18:08 -0700 2009 4872650 14404 Thi N. 3 4881221 I've never had any problems with the service at Silverlake Intelligentsia - they've always been extremely friendly and helpful to me and everyone around me Wed Jul 22 11:25:42 -0700 2009 4874812 33727 patz 4 4881565 Same here! Wed Jul 22 12:58:34 -0700 2009 4881221 10864 sel 4 4881752 I don't think I had any problems with the service. They seemed nice enough. But I don't think I'd be able to serve a "palate cleanser" to someone with a straight face. Wed Jul 22 13:51:49 -0700 2009 4881221 10811 Das Ubergeek 3 4882403 "...sort of like adding a drop of water to bourbon. " I've never understood anyone who adds water to bourbon...even a drop. A good bourbon needs nothing else to 'open up the flavor'. Wed Jul 22 17:33:08 -0700 2009 4874812 239340 latindancer 1 4907824 The only thing I'd want to add is that I'd love if some opened a Philz in L.A. No knock on Blue Bottle but I always preferred the hand drip at Philz. Fri Jul 31 17:40:21 -0700 2009 4435686 110491 odub 1 4997866 So who's missin' their Blue Bottle fix? Equator Books on Abbot Kinney in Venice just recently unveiled their coffee counter and it seems like they've got some serious coffee mojo here. Didn't have time to stop in for a cuppa but they've posted a sign out front stating that they are "proudly serving Blue Bottle coffee." Looks like the coffee wars on Abbot Kinney are about to go ballistic... Tue Sep 01 20:47:04 -0700 2009 4435686 64003 bulavinaka 2 5001782 I live in the San Fernando Valley, and Blue Bottle is nowhere to be found out here in wastelands. However, I'm going to San Francisco next week, and have been lead to believe that they are expanding their brick and mortar stores in that area. Can't wait. And yes, I'll buy a pound or two to take home. Thu Sep 03 07:54:10 -0700 2009 4997866 65821 Golem 3 5001806 I buy a pound of Blue Bottle about every other week from their online store. http://www.bluebottlecoffee.net/ Thu Sep 03 08:01:46 -0700 2009 5001782 10864 sel 1 5000255 This thread brings a tear to my eye. As a very recent transplant from New York (don't judge), I was desperate for these suggestions. I have found a few on my own, but I will be trying every single recommendation in the next few weeks. Thanks everyone! Would someone mind sharing with me which of these wonderful coffee spots is open LATEST? I am losing my mind driving around this city looking for a place to sit down and write past 9pm. Also, Thi N - your perspective is mind blowing. do you have a blog, or can you please start one? I really need a glimpse into your chest-beating LA food list. Wed Sep 02 16:01:47 -0700 2009 4435686 1106236 nycmissesme 2 5000279 If you are in the WLA area and need a late night place to drink coffee and write then you could try: http://www.cacaocoffeehouse.com/ They are open until 3 AM every night except for Sunday and they offer free (no sign up - no charge - no nothing) Wi-Fi. Wed Sep 02 16:14:35 -0700 2009 5000255 108169 Servorg 3 5000300 THANKS SO MUCH! Wed Sep 02 16:22:08 -0700 2009 5000279 1106236 nycmissesme 4 5000304 Glad to help further if possible. What area are you living in? Wed Sep 02 16:23:32 -0700 2009 5000300 108169 Servorg 5 5000315 Currently staying Altadena, and will probably move soon to area open the latest. I actually just started another post looking for late night cafes so I don't burden this wonderful thread! I have been exploring for places to write every night but have not had a lot of luck....I think just because of the size of LA it's difficult to "find" things the way I am going about it. I am willing to drive absolutely anywhere within reason, as It's really helping me to get to know the city. Thanks for helping! Wed Sep 02 16:28:42 -0700 2009 5000304 1106236 nycmissesme