595856 Fri Feb 13 06:49:17 -0800 2009 48 31 Home Cooking 0 4413627 A few months ago after buying the book Charcuterie, we started making our own pancetta and guanciale. If you use these wonderful cured meats in your cooking (and you should), it's so darn easy to make, generally better than you can buy and less than half the cost to make. The pancetta is cured with salt and herbs for about a week then dried for 2 weeks and the guanciale is cured for a week in salt and herbs and dried for about 3 weeks. The stuff is really coming out awesome. You should give it try. Fri Feb 13 06:49:18 -0800 2009 41679 Den 1 4413661 Is that the book by Ruhlman? Fri Feb 13 06:59:39 -0800 2009 4413627 18353 DGresh 2 4413665 yes Fri Feb 13 07:01:15 -0800 2009 4413661 41679 Den 1 4413910 I just made my first attempt at pancetta. Turned out awesome, the best I've ever had. I was worried about a few things. Notably the curing conditions. The books and online sources say 50-60 degrees curing temp, 60% humidity. I was probably at 70 degrees, no idea what the humidity was, but it all worked great. Mind you, if I was curing salami or something that is eaten in its 'raw' state, I'd be a bit less bold. Really am looking forward to trying guanciale, too. But pig cheeks are tough to source. Fri Feb 13 08:12:59 -0800 2009 4413627 157056 grandgourmand 2 4414048 Where do you live? Any good butcher that handles pork products s/b able to get you the jowls. Just talk to them. Fri Feb 13 08:47:14 -0800 2009 4413910 41679 Den 3 4415544 Toronto. Big city, suprisingly few butchers carry the stuff. And the ones that do, you have to order ahead. Anyhow, at least I know I can get it. Fri Feb 13 15:06:07 -0800 2009 4414048 157056 grandgourmand 4 5136331 Have you tried the Healthy Butcher GG? They love pig product there and I've bought proper lard there too. Also Cumbrae's has always got stuff for me if they don't have it on hand. What about Witeeven's [sp?] in the St Lawrence market? I too have toyed w getting a pig's jowl to make guanciale. (M Batali has a recipe in one of his books.) The thing that stopped me is that it had to hang a long time in the fridge. Anyway, you've emboldened me to try pancetta at least! Edit: oops - apologies to Gio for repeating what you've posted. Tue Oct 27 20:39:50 -0700 2009 4415544 1093156 cinnamon girl 5 5136683 Haven't tried Healthy butcher. You're right on Cumbrae's, you can get it by ordering it advance. I just wish some places could go out back and carve it off a pig head. No biggie, though. the process takes several weeks, so a few extra days doesn't matter much. By the way, there's a thread on the Toronto board by someone asking about where to find pork belly. A few locations are named, most of which can obtain jowl, I imagine, with several days notice. One poster, Lyndak, mentioned Medium Rara in Etobicoke. As it turns out, they can sell you Berkshire pork bellies for $4 a lb. That's an absolute steal. Wed Oct 28 04:52:04 -0700 2009 5136331 157056 grandgourmand 6 5138474 $4 a lb for Berkshire belly?!!!! Wow - that is a steal. Thanks - I'll go that thread. I know what you mean about going out back and getting what you want. I've been complaining a lot lately abt many of these places seeming more like meat boutiques than real butchers. Cumbrae's in particular seems to cater to yuppie tastes and if you want anything that's not on their food fashion radar yet, you have to order. (But wait 5-10 yrs and it will be!) Last winter I wanted a couple of duck legs. They had confit and smoked legs but . . . cutting me off a couple of duck legs in the back was referred to as "doing it special for you" . . . groan . . . it's a butcher for crying out loud. But the people there are so nice I can only smile at them. Wed Oct 28 15:25:40 -0700 2009 5136683 1093156 cinnamon girl 7 5138497 YOu might want to give them a call to make sure. I did and that's what they said. I just find it hard to believe that you can get Berkshire belly at that price. I'm skeptical by nature. You and I are on the exact same page when it comes to butcher shops. It's a major pet peeve of mine. One on the Danforth just close, Blackstone. I'm actually glad, because it was one of these "we've got 10 kinds of pre-marinated chicken breast, why do you need pork shoulder?" places. Wed Oct 28 15:33:02 -0700 2009 5138474 157056 grandgourmand 8 5155200 LOL . . . but wait - did you mean to type 10 kinds of "skinless" pre-marinated chicken breast . . . " ?? Best we enjoy our pork shoulder before the yuppies decide they do too! They've now driven up the price of pork belly. I meant to mention earlier that I actually saw a chunk for sale in Metro on Front St this winter. Haven't seen it since tho' . . . and it would hardly be Berkshire Wed Nov 04 09:39:09 -0800 2009 5138497 1093156 cinnamon girl 2 4417728 Try the larger asian markets if there are any where you live. There's a chain of 5 or 6 stores here in San Francisco called Manilla Mart, and they pretty much always have jowls at $1 a pound. Sat Feb 14 14:39:17 -0800 2009 4413910 53530 Zeldog 1 4413941 Mario Batali has a really simple recipefor guanciale here: http://www.babbonyc.com/in-guanciale.html I would dearly love to try making it myself, but I have no idea where I would/could hang it for the required 3 weeks. Fri Feb 13 08:19:56 -0800 2009 4413627 75332 Gio 2 4414054 Know anyone with a basement? Fri Feb 13 08:48:17 -0800 2009 4413941 41679 Den 3 4414079 Yup. Me. But the basement? eeeeuuuuu.....My house is 110 years old. The wrath of God lives down there....'Course I do have a pantry room but I doubt the temp in there is 50-60 degrees. I'll have to test that. . Fri Feb 13 08:53:01 -0800 2009 4414054 75332 Gio 4 4414178 Just thought of a question: When the meat hangs for those 3 weeks does it drip? Fri Feb 13 09:19:13 -0800 2009 4414079 75332 Gio 5 4414753 We hang pancetta in our eeeeeuuuuuuu old garage (loosely tented with cheesecloth to keep off gunk that falls from the ceiling - it's pretty bad. I wouldn't worry about your basement). Very minimal drippage. Maybe needs a few sheets of newspaper on the floor. Fri Feb 13 11:40:55 -0800 2009 4414178 12823 Junie D 6 4416110 Oh many thanks for that!! I now feel encouraged more than ever to try making my own. Thanx! Fri Feb 13 19:26:23 -0800 2009 4414753 75332 Gio 7 5136339 The Mario guanciale recipe I have talks abt hanging it in the fridge for 3 weeks. No basement or pantry so the fridge part of it attracted me - the 3 weeks, not so much! Tue Oct 27 20:46:18 -0700 2009 4416110 1093156 cinnamon girl 2 5128918 do you think batali in his restaurant actually use salt peter in his guanciale? and is it possible if i hang the cured guanciale in my normal samsung refrigerator in home? Sun Oct 25 01:42:12 -0700 2009 4413941 200474 hae young 3 5130958 I hung, (hanged), 2 jowls in my fridge a little longer, (3-4 weeks), and it came out wonderful Mon Oct 26 03:42:43 -0700 2009 5128918 168526 csweeny 4 5130974 hey and then did you use some salt peter? it seems mario batali do not use salt peter in his guanciale according to hs recipe but i am not sure whether he really did without it. Mon Oct 26 04:28:19 -0700 2009 5130958 200474 hae young 5 5133390 You can make bacon or guanciale either way and if Batali says he uses only plain salt, I see no reason to doubt him. The hanging time for bacon or guanciale is so short, the risk of food poisoning is minimal. The only reason I use a little nitrite is I like the subtle taste it adds. Almost nobody uses saltpeter (potassium nitrate) these days. Sodium nitrite is preferred. Here is Batali's recipe for guanciale. Use skinless pork belly and you have pancetta. I like to add a few crushed juniper berries. http://www.mariobatali.com/recipes_carbonara.cfm And here is one using sodium nitrite (aka Cure #2): http://lpoli.50webs.com/index_files/Guanciale.pdf Mon Oct 26 19:39:19 -0700 2009 5130974 53530 Zeldog 6 5133752 thaks for info! i ll try making guanciale in my home. in my region, i cannot find any importer who sell this at both oline and offline. maybe due to some national restriction policy about products especially foreign meats. i Tue Oct 27 02:04:19 -0700 2009 5133390 200474 hae young 6 5133760 and how do you know whether the guanciale you hanged on in fridge for certain amount of time is either paritially or fully poisoned or not? are there your own methods to distinguish one from the other such as using the the sense of sight or of smell or both? Tue Oct 27 02:20:31 -0700 2009 5133390 200474 hae young 7 5133838 You will get an "off" smell and most likely you will see mold growing on the meat if it has gone bad. I have had pieces go bad and it's obvious. It generally happens if the temperature is too high. Tue Oct 27 04:51:28 -0700 2009 5133760 41679 Den 8 5134050 do you think it is bad idea in home kitchen refrigerater to hang? mario says in his cook book to hang the jowls at least 3 weeks in fridge. if i do in winter season do you think could it be a lttle easier in controlling unexpected temps? Tue Oct 27 06:59:53 -0700 2009 5133838 200474 hae young 9 5135347 No, not at all. Once cured, you really shouldn't have any spoiling problems with the jowls in a kitchen refrigerator. However, the temperature and humidity are likely to retard the drying process. I use the formulas and advice in the book Charcuterie and basically follow the guanciale curing recipe with less sugar (I think the meat is sweet as it is) and do the cure for about 5-7 days in the fridge. I then wash the jowls off and follow the drying instructions for pancetta which is to hang it in my basement at around 55 degrees and about 60 percent humidity and dry it for about 1-2 weeks. You want it firm but not hard. If you hang it in a fridge at a lower temperature the likely outcome will be that it will take longer to dry as opposed to going bad. In my curing escapades fluctuation in temperature as long as it's below 60 degrees results in no problems. When you have spikes above 60 is when you have problems. By my original post in February and looking back at my notes, I've done virtually all my curing from late fall to early spring and I should have stuck to that as I had a recent disaster. I cured a full belly in September and hung it in the basement and the temp was 63 or 64 degrees and the darn thing turned on me in about 4 days, all was lost. By the way, if you're ever in NYC you should stop by Italian Wine Merchants on 16th in Union Square where Batali has a curing operation going on. http://www.iwmstore.com/ Tue Oct 27 13:51:05 -0700 2009 5134050 41679 Den 10 5184887 hey! mario recommend at first storing pig's jowls 5 or 7days with each of 1/2 of sugar and salt in non-reactive casserole. what is the non-reactive casserole? i have good stainless still pot which can fill little bit more than 5 quarts of amount of liquid. is the stainless-still pot ok? and before storing the jowls inside the pot which will be in refrigerater soon, how should i coat the salt and surgar and herb around it? i think those brining ingredients probably and eventually will come off as soon as i leave them alone in refrigerater for 5 or 7 days. but my much bigger concern is that after 5 or 7 days of storing in the pot in the refrigerater, there probably will be very excess moisture or liquid comes out of the jowls. doesnt that liquid that comes out of the meat or jowls, contaminate this process of salt and sugar curing? and in my region, i cannot find any online and off line seller who sells kosher salt. so if i substitute regular sea salt instead of that kosher salt, how much more or less salt should i use in this curing? please people let me know. i will swear to make guanciale in this fall and winter season. Mon Nov 16 05:25:52 -0800 2009 5135347 200474 hae young 11 5184983 don't use the stainless. don't use anything metal. use glass or plastic. wood boxes/barrels with no metal nails/hardware are also traditional curing containers. the sugar and salt cure is sterile and it will be discarded, so you don't have to worry about any moisture leaching into it. you want the meat to dehydrate a little, that's what the cure is for. if you use sea salt use the same amount by weight, if possible, or 1/2-3/4 by volume. Mon Nov 16 06:22:15 -0800 2009 5184887 46030 soupkitten 12 5190379 when coating the salt and sugar, how can i prevent those ingredient form sliding off from the jowls? and especially after coating and while storing the jowls in a container fro 5 or 7days? and sth make me more perplexing is that should i rub those salt and sugar by my bare hand to coat? Tue Nov 17 20:13:38 -0800 2009 5184983 200474 hae young 13 5190476 i don't have batali's recipe in front of me, so forgive me if i deviate from that specific recipe. you make the sugar and salt mixture (called the cure), then you rub and pat this mixture all over the meat (yes with your bare hands). the salt and sugar will stick to the meat. put a little layer of the cure down in the bottom of your container, then place the meat on top of that, and refrigerate. each day drain off any liquid that's accumulated in the container, rub the meat with fresh cure, flip it over and return it to the fridge. or, leave the liquid in the container-- whatever your recipe calls for. after a week or so of this (depending on the weight of the meat), the texture of the meat will have changed so that it feels stiff like bacon, not squishy like raw meat. at this point you can hang it in a cool dry place, 50-60 degrees F according to your recipe. usually you will rinse and pat dry the meat before hanging it. does this sound similar to the batali recipe? Tue Nov 17 21:17:31 -0800 2009 5190379 46030 soupkitten 14 5190577 thanks for good infos. batali's recipe of guanciale seems a little too simple. your detail info is really big help. Tue Nov 17 22:42:44 -0800 2009 5190476 200474 hae young 9 5136261 It depends on the local weather, but it might be better to hang it in your kitchen or another room, away from direct sunlight or heat from the oven. The best conditions are cool temperature and moderate humidity (60 to 70 percent, which is lower than most refrigerators). In most places Fall and Winter are the best times to cure meats. The guanciale will cure faster in a room or cellar compared with in the refrigerator. White molds that look like a thin layer of dust or ash are not bad. In my experience they almost always appear after a week or two. If you don't like them, wash the meat with some white vinegar. Black or green molds that grow in circles are more likely to be toxic or bad tasting. They can be cut away if they are few and small, but if they spread you should throw away the meat. Tue Oct 27 20:00:54 -0700 2009 5134050 53530 Zeldog 6 5136345 Doesn't the saltpeter improve the colour also? Or is this more a case of salami? You've so inspired me . . . after 6 or 7 years of waffling on it! Tue Oct 27 20:48:14 -0700 2009 5133390 1093156 cinnamon girl 7 5136688 Saltpeter improves the colour. If you've got a spare bathroom, you can hang your pancetta or guanciale there. It's a pretty forgiving meat to cure, compared to other stuff. Plus, if you're worried about safety...it's a product that gets cooked through, so less of a concern there. Obviously, I wouldn't go gung ho with stuff that has the black or green molds Zeldog is talking about. The stuff you make at home is miles better than anythign you find at the store in those little sealed packages. You'll make some of the best pasta carbonara ever. Wed Oct 28 04:56:09 -0700 2009 5136345 157056 grandgourmand 8 5138487 Thank you. I'm actually not so concerned that meat I'm going to cook anyway is going to poison anyone. I was just thinking of the time needed to develop the flavour. Thanks for all your good suggestions. Carbonara is EXACTLY what I've fantasized making w my guanciale! Wed Oct 28 15:30:30 -0700 2009 5136688 1093156 cinnamon girl 7 5139083 Saltpeter is a nitrAte, and Cure #2 is a nitrite. You can research the chemistry if you like, but in general, nitrites are used in cured cuts of meat, while nitrates are used in aged sausages. For aged sausages I use Cure #1 which is sodium nitrate plus a smaller amount of sodium nitrite. Somebody correct me if I screw this up, but: Nitrites are the active ingredient you want for color and antibacterial properties. Nitrates degrade to nitrites over time, but nitrites degrade to inactive compounds, so For quick cures (guanciale) you don't need nitrates, so you use nitrite only (Cure #2), but For long cures (salami) you want a time-release of nitrites, so you use a cure that has nitrate to get the time-release plus a bit of nitrite for a jump start (that's Cure #1) Saltpeter is pure nitrate, so it doesn't fit either of these bills very well. Wed Oct 28 19:07:27 -0700 2009 5136345 53530 Zeldog 5 5137317 No saltpeter, pink salt or any type nitrate/nitrite used. I do use it when making bacon but not with the cured jowl. Interesting side note, my wife called from a Salumeria (sp), and asked if I wanted some from there, to which I replied why not..They must have used Batali's recipe just like I had, couldn't tell them apart, taste, texture & color. Wed Oct 28 09:34:29 -0700 2009 5130974 168526 csweeny 6 5187974 I've got a guanciale hanging. One more week to go before slicing in. I can't wait. I've got an order of pork bellies coming in ten days from a local farmer. Need to get going on pancetta. I foolishly let me reserves run empty. You don't realize what you're missing until it's gone. Applies to pancetta as much as relationships. Who knew? Tue Nov 17 05:41:54 -0800 2009 5137317 157056 grandgourmand 7 5190222 Very funny Grandgourmand. Did you get the Berkshire bellies from the Etobicoke source? Will you be freezing your pancetta? And if so do you slice it first? Did you already mention where you ended up getting the pork jowl for the guanciale? I've made a cursory glance but don't see it . . . just curious since we have similar "issues" - ha ha, with butchers and meat boutiques. So many questions . . . Tue Nov 17 18:43:54 -0800 2009 5187974 1093156 cinnamon girl 1 5135953 That's one of the few welcome things of a coming winter: colder temps to dry meat in the basement! I cure corned beef, lonza, bacon, ham, ocassional Montreal style smoked meat, and lotsa sausage. My basement is where I dry the lonza and about 50% of all suasage I make (freeze the rest). After about 12 days, the sausages take on a shrunken look, are semi-dry, and fantastic! Den, we just got back from NYC a few weeks ago - didn't know about Batali's curing at IWM, I'll have to check it out next time. The web site doesn't seem to highlight this aspect, is it more prominent when visiting? We had a very memorable dinner at Salumeria Rosi http://www.salumeriarosi.com/ tasting lardo, pancetta, prosciutto, guanciale, and more. Plan on visiting Salumeria Biellese nxt time around as well. http://www.salumeriabiellese.com/ Tue Oct 27 18:00:10 -0700 2009 4413627 176627 porker 1 5185133 I am just getting started with Charcuterie as well. The book has given some really good results. My first attempt was a cured salmon and it turned out better than I imagined for my first attempt. It is an easy one and gives results in 3 days. I have 2 duck breasts curing now that should be ready tomorrow. Mon Nov 16 07:24:10 -0800 2009 4413627 1105207 Kooper 2 5187975 Report on that please. I did some duck breasts and they came out pretty inedible. I've since focused on making cured and smoked duck breasts, also in the book I believe. Great stuff for parties. Tue Nov 17 05:43:08 -0800 2009 5185133 157056 grandgourmand 3 5188113 It should be ready tonight. I will post tomorrow. The main reason why I started with the duck is that it is small and will cure quickly. My wife is not totally convinced of the merits and doesn't want what she calls "A smelly Silence of the Lambs basement". So far it was has not produced any smell so I hope it means that we can do more. Tue Nov 17 06:59:13 -0800 2009 5187975 1105207 Kooper 4 5190232 is this from the Michael Ruhlman book Kooper? I've seen and read of versions of cured duck breast done w pastrami type spices (and called duck pastrami) . . . yumm two loves united . . . But that was before the Ruhlman book and, while I've looked at their book (forget the other author), I don't own it - yet. Just wondering if it's a "pastrami-esque" kind of cure/preparation. Am looking forward to hearing of your results. Tue Nov 17 18:49:50 -0800 2009 5188113 1093156 cinnamon girl 5 5190271 It is the Ruhlman book. The style I think is a duck proscuitto. It was really easy and tasted pretty good. Not bad for a second try. The book is very accessible and has some very clear explanations and illustrations that help clarify some of the techniques. abebooks.com has a couple of copies. Tue Nov 17 19:14:56 -0800 2009 5190232 1105207 Kooper 6 5199458 Congratulations! I'm glad it turned out so well. Yes, now that you mention it I had seen duck prosciutto recipes before too. I hope you'll keep us posted on your future experiments. This thread is inspiring. Sat Nov 21 22:06:08 -0800 2009 5190271 1093156 cinnamon girl 3 5190260 Perhaps you have higher standards than I do since, based on the number of posts, you have a lot more experince than I have but it was pretty good. It was a bit saltier and had a stronger taste of pepper than I had expected but a simple couple of changes, a touch more rinsing after salting and a coarser grind of pepper, it will be quite good. Why did you find the recipe inedible? I would love to smoke a duck breast but unfortunately I still don't have a smoker. My next try will be a Breosola or a Pancetta. Tue Nov 17 19:10:44 -0800 2009 5187975 1105207 Kooper