595761 Thu Feb 12 16:55:45 -0800 2009 21 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 4411686 Ketchup is Asian in origin, FYI. Thu Feb 12 13:23:40 -0800 2009 10809 Josh 1 4411746 ^Josh, thanx for the cute bit of enlightenment or whatever. But I think you know what I meant. Thu Feb 12 13:34:54 -0800 2009 4411686 182292 Maxmdwinter 2 4412099 It's factual. There's nothing "American" about ketchup. For myself, I don't really care about Neighborhood's "no ketchup" policy. It does seem kind of silly, but at the same time the meat there is so good that the last thing I'd want to do is hide the flavor under ketchup, especially given their tasty sauces and home-made condiments that are already on the burgers. Thu Feb 12 15:11:06 -0800 2009 4411746 10809 Josh 3 4412217 Josh, my statement was not meant to be factual in some historical foodie context. I'm just pointing out that it's needlessly deviant for an establishment to not have ketchup available when serving a staple of American casual eats. And actually, ketchup would ADD flavor to Neighborhood's burger, which I think is lacking. Hell, maybe their cows weren't happy cows. Whatever the case, it's not a burger that's high on my list. Thu Feb 12 15:49:15 -0800 2009 4412099 182292 Maxmdwinter 1 4412097 I believe that tomato ketchup, which is what we think of when we think of ketchup, is American in origin. Thu Feb 12 15:10:52 -0800 2009 4411686 168597 The Old Man 2 4412204 The Old Man is right. From wikipedia: "Origins Ketchup-like sauces originated in eastern Asia as a spicy fish sauce called Ké Tsiap (茄汁), long before anyone outside the Americas had ever seen a tomato...... A recipe in Eliza Smith's The Compleat Housewife, published in 1727, called for anchovies, shallots, vinegar, white wine, sweet spices (cloves, ginger, mace, nutmeg), pepper, and lemon peel. Ketchup, as it is eaten today, first appeared in American cookbooks during the early 19th century. Tomato ketchup By 1801 a recipe for tomato ketchup was printed in an American cookbook, the Sugar House Book. James Mease published another recipe in 1812. In 1824 a ketchup recipe appeared in The Virginia Housewife, an influential 19th-century cookbook written by Mary Randolph, Thomas Jefferson's cousin." Fascinating. What would I do without Wikipedia? Now on to mustard! Thu Feb 12 15:46:12 -0800 2009 4412097 65763 Encinitan 3 4412393 I am always surprised how people take wikipedia entries as a high quality source for information. (not that anything is wrong with this particular entry but somebody cites something from wikipedia and people believe it is the ultimate truth). Thu Feb 12 16:52:17 -0800 2009 4412204 13239 honkman 4 4412491 Careful, this will wind up split into a separate "wikipedia thread." Thu Feb 12 17:32:54 -0800 2009 4412393 168597 The Old Man 3 4412399 "The Old Man is right." I knew there was no translation for the Chinese word, "ketchup." Thu Feb 12 16:53:51 -0800 2009 4412204 168597 The Old Man 1 4412458 Too bad this was split at the point it is, much of the background discussion is lost. I wish Chowhound would refer the original thread when they do these things. On to the main point, several websites I looked at referred to chinese origins of ketchup, apparently as a vinegar based herb and spice infused sauce. Seems to me that there are probably lots of vinegar based sauces that do not include ketchup. Whether "...the Chinese ke-tsiap, a pickled fish sauce..." is the root of the word ketchup or not, it hardly could be what we think of as ketchup without tomato. What we now think of as ketchup in the US may have it's ancestry in the east, but so does chop-suey, but that is still considered to be an American Dish, as I believe ketchup should be. Thu Feb 12 17:19:08 -0800 2009 4411686 57890 KaimukiMan 1 4412703 I applaud Neighborhood's no ketchup policy. Ketchup epitomizes the stagnant thinking that led this country to produce some of the worst cuisine in the world - the notion that restaurants must appeal to all with ketchup, soft white bread, light beer and the like. Why must every restaurant offer these? There is a refreshing trend of San Diego restaurants refusing to offer bland commodity products and instead offering homemade condiments, locally produced food, and in general, product with character. Congratulation to those places for saving us from a sea of mass produced mediocrity. Thu Feb 12 18:49:22 -0800 2009 4411686 149239 juantanamera 1 4412781 This is about a restaurant that serves hamburgers without ketchup? If so it is the ultimate in arrogance. Thu Feb 12 19:20:48 -0800 2009 4411686 11290 jfood 2 4412810 What if it was a restaurant that serves hot dogs without ketchup? Heh, heh, heh. The Pork Roll Kid Thu Feb 12 19:28:36 -0800 2009 4412781 93538 Passadumkeg 3 4412888 putting ketchup on hot dogs is like mayo on a taylor ham and cheese Thu Feb 12 19:56:53 -0800 2009 4412810 11290 jfood 2 4412812 Louis' Lunch in New Haven where the first hamburger in America may have been served does not offer ketchup do you think they are being arrogant? Thu Feb 12 19:29:41 -0800 2009 4412781 10195 KTinNYC 3 4412875 Yes..it's a hamburger..toast and cheese, cooked in a vertical toast thing. Let's not get too misty eyed over it. I just wouldn't eat it there if I wanted ketchup. It is arrogant, but in Yale country what do you expect ? Methinks they think a bit too highly of their product. Ketchup is healthy, high in lycopene. Thu Feb 12 19:52:23 -0800 2009 4412812 80323 rochfood 4 4413220 Here in the Los Angeles area, Father's Office will not serve ketchup on their burgers, no substitutions! I've heard stories of people smuggling packets of ketchup in from Burger King. Right about the lycopene--it's so healthy, as I've said many times, Heinz ketchup is the only thing keeping me alive! Thu Feb 12 23:24:27 -0800 2009 4412875 196419 Kate is always hungry 3 4412892 K Yup, theyare being arrogant. officially off the list of burgers to try. jfood ate a $24 wagyu burger and put ketchup on it. And the owner smiled. Thu Feb 12 19:57:59 -0800 2009 4412812 11290 jfood 4 4413653 We'll have to disagree. I think if they make their policy clear and they just refuse to serve ketchup then it is a case of caveat emptor. Fri Feb 13 06:58:02 -0800 2009 4412892 10195 KTinNYC 5 4415082 actually you and jfood agree. he is glad they tell you up front that they do not serve ketchup so the customer can make an informed decision. jfood disagrees with the policy since he wants ketchup on the burger so he will not eat there and they can serve people that are OK with it. win-win-win all around. Fri Feb 13 13:08:04 -0800 2009 4413653 11290 jfood 2 4413986 No Jfood, that is another post. You too Kate.. This post is about the Origins of Ketchup. Fri Feb 13 08:31:45 -0800 2009 4412781 57890 KaimukiMan 1 4415958 I enjoy making my own ketchups - my favourite is Papaya Ketchup. You can also easily make your own Kecap Manis. Fri Feb 13 18:06:58 -0800 2009 4411686 206532 chefathome