595107 Tue Feb 10 15:26:05 -0800 2009 110 31 Home Cooking 0 4405245 Okay. I've been cooking my steaks sans salt, then salting just prior to eating for years, but a recent discussion on when to salt made me question whether it was habit or if I was doing the right thing. Last night I had three very small filet mignons. USDA Prime from a whole tendrloin I had trimmed and cut myself. They were a tad over an inch thick. My cooking method was to sear in an very hot cast iron skillet with a film of olive oil, then pop them into a 350 degree oven for 4 1/2 minutes for medium rare. I salted one steak just prior to searing, the second immediately after removing from the oven but prior to resting, and the third one I did not salt until I was ready to eat. Oh, and just for general information, as an accompaniment I nuked some really small fingerling potatoes for a minute, then sauteed then in their skins with an equal amount of washed but unpierced grape tomatoes in the pan drippings with a touch of cab, salt and pepper. Snuggled them up to the steaks with a little chopped parsley. I'm gonna do that again soon! So here's what I found out: Steak #!: Salted just prior to searing. After finishing the steak in the oven and allowing it to rest, it was NOT as tender as the other two. Being USDA Prime, I would have had to cook it to very well done to get tough meat, but it was definitely not as tender as the other two. Had a somewhat stringy and dry-ish texture to it. Steak #2: Salted after removing from oven but before resting. It was wonderfully tender. Steak #3: Salted prior to eating. Wonderfully tender, and for my taste buds, it had a much beefier flavor and the salt was more pleasing than on either of the other two steaks. What kind of salt did I use? Kosher. It's what I always use for cooking. Normally I use sea salt for flavoring just prior to eating, but I wanted to use identical salt for an honest test. Tue Feb 10 15:26:05 -0800 2009 112096 Caroline1 1 4405263 gotta love the scientific method. Thanks! Tue Feb 10 15:30:17 -0800 2009 4405245 18353 DGresh 1 4405338 A dark and lonely job but somebody's gotta do it :) But thanks for the Herculean effort on our behalf. I actually did enjoy the data. Lately I've been salting lightly after I slice so it's on the exposed part. I like that even better. Poor you, I just can't get over the sacrifice :) Tue Feb 10 15:51:13 -0800 2009 4405245 131001 c oliver 1 4405409 Nice job. Thanks for the experiment. I wonder if this applies to lamb? Tue Feb 10 16:16:26 -0800 2009 4405245 133265 jeniyo 1 4405458 very nice, caroline. thanks for taking one for the team. ;) Tue Feb 10 16:34:05 -0800 2009 4405245 64215 cimui 1 4405483 One of my favorite food blogs featured this a while back: http://steamykitchen.com/blog/2007/08/28/how-to-turn-cheap-choice-steaks-into-gucci-prime-steaks/ I finally got around to trying it a couple of months ago and I'm hooked. I've served up steaks several times without telling folks what I've done and the response has been 100% positive. Give it a try and see what you think... Tue Feb 10 16:41:01 -0800 2009 4405245 22801 bkhuna 2 4405493 fascinating. so method #4 is essentially a very quick dry brine? i never hear about anyone wet brining steak. know if that's done? Tue Feb 10 16:46:51 -0800 2009 4405483 64215 cimui 2 4405505 I will definitely try this. Thanks. Tue Feb 10 16:49:41 -0800 2009 4405483 131001 c oliver 2 4405725 I saw this blog post several months back and now it's the only way I cook my steak. More proponents of early salting. This is from Michael Rulman's The Elements of cooking. "Judy Rodgers was the first chef I knew to address this matter head-on in her Zuni Cafe Cookbook. Common wisdom had always been that if you salted food early, it dried the food out. Looks that way. Salt a steak and a few hours later it's sitting in a puddle of red juices. But in fact the perpetual osmotic effect of salt enhances juiciness by changing the cell structure so that it holds more moisture. Salt also enhances the flavor of the meat by thoroughly penetrating it. And it dissolves the sticky protein myosin, so that in ground preparations -- hamburger, sausage -- the meat holds together. Rodgers urges cooks to salt food early. The bigger the food is, the more salt it needs, and the more time with the salt that it needs. This is uniformly important with meat, but less so with fish; some fish is delicious after it's been packed in salt (salmon or cod) but some flesh is so delicate the salt can damage it if used too early. And it can even be true of vegetables. Vegetables with large watery cells are enhanced by early salting, such as onions, eggplant, peppers." http://books.simonandschuster.com/Elements-of-Cooking/Michael-Ruhlman/9780743299787/excerpt Tue Feb 10 18:10:17 -0800 2009 4405483 10195 KTinNYC 3 4405734 The science makes sense as well as the personal testimonies. We're having last minute houseguests arrive tonight and I'm thawing some cheap steaks for dinner tomorrow night. Will report back on the results. Tue Feb 10 18:12:31 -0800 2009 4405725 131001 c oliver 4 4405757 Cool, let us know. Tue Feb 10 18:21:25 -0800 2009 4405734 10195 KTinNYC 3 4407673 We were converted by Judy R several years ago and routinely salt all meat and poultry for several days. Makes a huge (good) difference in texture and seasons the meat all the way through. For those who have negative experiences based on one or two incidents, I'd suggest you read the rationale in the Zuni Cookbook and give it another try. Wed Feb 11 12:03:02 -0800 2009 4405725 15272 LizATL 4 4427741 Caroline1, thanks for sharing your scientific steak experiment. Bkhuna, excellent blog. Though I don't frequently cook meat, I will absolutely give the pre-salting technique a try. Just wondering if anyone knows (if I were to pre-salt poultry) should I put salt under the skin too, or just all over the outside??? Wed Feb 18 04:35:32 -0800 2009 4407673 205148 ideabaker 5 4427810 On the outside and in the cavity. Wed Feb 18 05:43:01 -0800 2009 4427741 36661 Sam Fujisaka 2 4405747 great blog Tue Feb 10 18:16:12 -0800 2009 4405483 11290 jfood 2 4405751 I always salt my meat long before cooking it. It pulls a little moisture to the surface and helps to build a crust. And no the steaks aren't dry after cooking. Tue Feb 10 18:18:19 -0800 2009 4405483 89493 scubadoo97 3 4405781 I think the point of that was the amount. Not for the faint of heart :) Tue Feb 10 18:27:12 -0800 2009 4405751 131001 c oliver 2 4407035 First, thanks Caroline1 on reporting your findings. I like that you started with cuts from the same tenderloin and cooked them the same way - good control to the findings. bkhuna, I came across the steak & salt article a couple of months ago. I gave it a try but was disappointed. BUT I had an issue with the article to begin with: the blogger had said "Notice that I didn’t say, “sprinkle liberally” or even “season generously.” I’m talking about literally coating your meat until you can’t see red. It should resemble a salt lick." Then theres a picture of a t-bone with a SCANT sprinkle of salt. I almost use this much salt when eating. She said 'until you can't see red' but the picture shows 90 percent red and a bit of salt. I chalked it up to maybe a stock photo rather than her actual steak resembling a salt lick So I POUR kosher salt all over my ribsteaks, both sides, until I can't see red. I let it sit for a 1/2 hour (maybe too long for 3/4 inch?), rinse well and pat very dry. Hot fire and cooked the steaks to med rare. Very nice char and cooked almost perfectly. Let stand while we finished up the scalloped potatoes, then dug in. The wife couldn't eat it - said it was too salty. I love salt (too much so, at least thats what the doc says...) and it was too salty for my likes as well. Tenderness? Well it was VERY tender, but I had no 'control' steak that wasn't salted, so I don't know if it was due to the procedure, or simply tender steaks to start with. I do know that I won't be trying the exact procedure next time. Maybe try with a different cut, maybe less salt, maybe a shorter sit time, etc. Maybe just use my trusted Montreal steak spice as always... Wed Feb 11 08:58:23 -0800 2009 4405483 176627 porker 3 4425383 I had a friend make me dinner and use this technique. I agree! The steak was nearly inedible it was so salty. Tue Feb 17 11:34:19 -0800 2009 4407035 80667 janetms383 1 4405780 The market may have been down 300 today but Caroline's stock up 25 points with this reasearch report. Now what did you do with the potatoes and the rest of the loin? Tue Feb 10 18:26:00 -0800 2009 4405245 11290 jfood 2 4406263 The fingerling potatoes were like mini baked potatoes with a rub of beef drippings and red wine, and the grape tomatoes were great! Little balloons of cheery red (skins) filled with seductive soft warm tomato flesh that popped in my mouth like giant caviar! All in all, a fantastic dinner, but based on what I experienced with this, I'm not at all convinced about the salting. If it can shove a USDA Prime filet in the direction of tough and stringy, I'm not convinced it will work. Nevertheless, the next time I have a cheaper cut of beef, I'll give it a try just for curiosity's sake. Wed Feb 11 00:30:42 -0800 2009 4405780 112096 Caroline1 3 4408471 caroline, thanks for your research. please, sometime, try my easy garlicky microwave tomatoes (they remind me of escargot): http://www.chow.com/recipes/13591 Wed Feb 11 15:07:34 -0800 2009 4406263 105717 alkapal 4 4408508 I have some Roma tomatoes that have been sitting around. Do you see any reason I couldn't treat them the same way as the cherries? Just increase the cooking time? Our SIL and a friend are up for skiing so I'm making a bigger dinner than usual tonight. Love feeding 30 year old "boys." Wed Feb 11 15:18:36 -0800 2009 4408471 131001 c oliver 5 4408647 I could also do in the regular oven. Recommended time and temp? Wed Feb 11 16:04:02 -0800 2009 4408508 131001 c oliver 5 4410095 c oliver and caroline, romas won't be as juicy, but don't let that deter you. they'll work. micro is quicker than oven, plus, you can check texture more easily with the micro, starting/stopping/looking/feeling (!?) don't overcook till mushy. they need to keep their sides with some integrity. tell me how the romas do. but i'd stick with the micro-technique for more control. and caroline: i think the KEY is the pec rom -- and garlic, of course! i love the panko-texture, too. ;-). bon apetit, y'all! ;-). Thu Feb 12 06:48:28 -0800 2009 4408508 105717 alkapal 4 4408606 Be still my heart! My favorite Italian cheese! These sound sooooooo good! Thanks. Wed Feb 11 15:50:56 -0800 2009 4408471 112096 Caroline1 1 4406429 What I like to do is salt about an hour per inch; rinse all the salt off, pat very very dry. Just a bit of olive oil on both sides and season with pepper. (No more salt!) Totally divine. It's salted throughout the meat, instead of just the surface. Thanks for the shoutout BHKUNA! Wed Feb 11 05:19:34 -0800 2009 4405245 89394 steamykitchen 2 4406810 I'm curious. Is that what you do with USDA Prime cuts? Wed Feb 11 07:52:37 -0800 2009 4406429 112096 Caroline1 2 4408068 Oh my! Jaden saw my post! My life is now complete :) Cheers from Merritt Island, FL. Wed Feb 11 13:34:20 -0800 2009 4406429 22801 bkhuna 2 4408473 Hi steamykitchen, As I mentioned above, I was curious to your description of the amount of salt, then a picture of a steak which doesn't look like a whole lot of salt. Do you recommend "literally coating your meat until you can’t see red. It should resemble a salt lick." or should the steak look like the picture? BTW I think Caroline1's reporting was subjective as well, but what the hey? Whenever I cook, the results are subjective and I will adapt accordingly. Will I have a triple blind test with people from diverse backgrounds and a 78 point questionaire? Not likely for lighthearted folk at CH {;-/) Wed Feb 11 15:08:11 -0800 2009 4406429 176627 porker 3 4417803 I'm confused as to what picture you are referring to. The one I see looks like a salt lick to me. Did you scroll down to the chart at the bottom of the page that tells you how much salt to use for thickness of meat and how long to wait? I also finally got around to trying her method. I had half of a choice flat iron steak left over that wasn't as tender as I usually get so I followed her instructions for less than 1" thickness and it came out nice and tender and not too salty. I am a person who didn't have a salt shaker on the table or cook with it for years because Mr. BR decided back in the 70s that it was the root of all evil so I am not very tolerant of salty foods. And Caroline1 to answer your question the purpose of the salting is to make cheap choice taste like Gucci prime. Sat Feb 14 15:16:20 -0800 2009 4408473 218554 BeefeaterRocks 4 4417900 Well lets see, The first picture is entitled "Grilled filet mignon steak" Scroll down to "Massively salt your steaks 15 min - 1 hour before grilling. Notice that I didn’t say, “sprinkle liberally” or even “season generously.” I’m talking about literally coating your meat until you can’t see red. It should resemble a salt lick." followed by a picture of a salted T-bone (this is the picture I'm refering to) Scroll down to see 5 'scientific-like' diagrams Followed by a web-page example Then I see a chart that tells how much salt/thickness scroll down to "Garlic Herbed Butter" followed by picture of corn on the cob then a grilled T-bone then end of article "Other Posts You May Enjoy" She said "...literally coating your meat until you can’t see red...". I dunno I see *plenty* of red in the photo. I'm just saying... Sat Feb 14 16:01:49 -0800 2009 4417803 176627 porker 5 4418098 I was referring to your first post, you said "but the picture shows 90 percent red and a bit of salt." To me the T-bone looks like a salt lick with very little red showing. You did mention you love salt so maybe what looks like a salt lick to me is normal for you. Sat Feb 14 17:48:23 -0800 2009 4417900 218554 BeefeaterRocks 1 4406838 I don't think this helps much to be honest. The salt has nothing to do with the internal texture of the meat. "Dry-ish and stringy" steak does not come from salting. Now the outer surface may have very well achieved a different crust because of the salt, but aside from that difference, I have difficulty believing that the entire steak turned out differently simply because you salted it immediatley before cooking. Wed Feb 11 07:59:48 -0800 2009 4405245 42270 HaagenDazs 2 4407120 Well, you're very welcome to doubt my word. I'm only reporting what i established on my own. If you'd like to pick up a whole USDA Prime beef tenderloin, trim and carve it yourself and repeat my experiment feel free to do so. But I feel confident your results will be the same as mine. Wed Feb 11 09:16:27 -0800 2009 4406838 112096 Caroline1 3 4407138 Your research was subjective. You already had an opinion and you knew which steak was salted at what point and lo and behold your results were just as you expected. I'm sure you believe what you wrote and your opinion is valid for you but I'm sticking with Michael Ruhlman and Judy Rogers over Caroline1. Wed Feb 11 09:22:04 -0800 2009 4407120 10195 KTinNYC 4 4407219 Exactly. Wed Feb 11 09:40:32 -0800 2009 4407138 42270 HaagenDazs 3 4407196 You can tout your butchery and expensive beef, but all I'm saying is that there is no physical way for the salt to penetrate the meat in such a manner that it becomes dry and stringy. There are plenty of other reports out there that suggest salting a steak does nothing to the final texture of the steak, perhaps it even helps it given the fact that a nice crisp crust is achieved more easily. On top of that, the difference between steaks 2 and 3 is negligible and doesn't really help with this "research." Frankly, there's not much difference between any of the 3 of them. That's why I'm a little hesitant to think that it was the salt that had any influence on texture. If I were to do such a thing, I would salt steak #1 about 4 or 5 hours before cooking. Then steak #2 would be salted just prior, and steak #3 not salted until it was served. That would lend more depth to the "research." Now I'm not disagreeing that there very well may be subtle differences between the 3, but to say that one was drastically different than the others and allude to the fact that it was because of salt is just hard to believe. I mean we're talking about 5 or 6 mintues of cooking time and what, 10 minutes of resting? Wed Feb 11 09:35:46 -0800 2009 4407120 42270 HaagenDazs 4 4407741 Well, the mods have removed my reply, so I'' try again. If you will please read my original post I said this: "Steak #!: Salted just prior to searing. After finishing the steak in the oven and allowing it to rest, it was NOT as tender as the other two. Being USDA Prime, I would have had to cook it to very well done to get tough meat, but it was definitely not as tender as the other two. Had a somewhat stringy and dry-ish texture to it." Will you please show me where I said there was a "drastic" difference? There was a perceptible difference, but I did not characterize it as "drastic." Also, if you will please note, I did not say everyone must cook things my way. If you think salt tenderizes your meat, live it up and keep on salting. Just don't insist that I join you. My test was on three specific USDA Prime filets mignon that provided an excellent opportunity to challenge my lifetime accrued experience with that specific grade of meat. I have accurately reported my results. It is offered as a report of my personal experience with no requirement that anyone subscribe to my methodology. To each his own. Wed Feb 11 12:18:55 -0800 2009 4407196 112096 Caroline1 5 4407898 They removed my response too... And I read your original post thoroughly. Anyway, I was not quoting you. You have to understand that if I'm quoting you, I'll use quotation marks. In using the word "drastic" I used was based on the fact that you used these 2 phrases: "stringy and dry-ish texture" versus "wonderfully tender" To me, that is what I would describe as a drastic difference. I did not say that salt makes things more tender, nor did I insist that you join my opinion, I'm simply offering what I consider a separate view point to the other folks who are merely praising you for taking on the "Herculean effort." I am also of the opinion that your results were biased before you even started cooking your steak, and that a true test would be done blindly and with more than one person, and in more than one sitting. After one night of cooking, I would hardly describe what I've done as "research." Wed Feb 11 12:56:17 -0800 2009 4407741 42270 HaagenDazs 6 4408003 Oh, for goodness sake, *I* referred to Herculean effort and that was SUCH a joke. Like, oh poor C1, she had to eat three prime pieces of meat. I feel SO sorry for her. Get over it. Wed Feb 11 13:19:32 -0800 2009 4407898 131001 c oliver 1 4406932 OK, here's a different experiment, albeit an indavertant one: I'd bought a 4-pack of NY strip steaks, and we ate 2 of them that day. The other 2 got seasoned - salt and pepper - and put back into the fridge for about 3 days. When we got around to cooking them, on the grill, they were, frankly, terrible. I've learned to test doneness by feel, and when I pressed on these to test them after about 10 minutes, they felt as firm as a medium-well steak - much more done than I normally let them get, so I took them off the grill in a panic, thinking I'd overcooked them. Nevertheless I let them rest another 10 minutes or so, and when we did cut into them they were really on the rare side of medium-rare: red and raw in the middle. Nevertheless, they were tough, with a strange rubbery texture, kinda like eating a flip-flop. Not dry or stringy, but tough and rubbery. I attribute this to the salting for several days. The first two steaks from the same package were fine; although they were better cooked, because they didn't have that deceptively firm feel that the second two had. Of course, this was not a scientific test, since there are lots of variables that were not controlled for, but the results were very striking. The second two steaks were some of the worst of the NY Strip cut that I'd ever had. Wed Feb 11 08:29:41 -0800 2009 4405245 98500 Bat Guano 2 4407165 Yup. I'm convinced salt was the culprit. I noticed years ago that when I dredge stew meat in flour, salt, and pepper the meat in the final stew, bit it boeuf Burguignon or Irish stew, is MUCH tougher and dryer than it is when I just dredge the meat in flour and pepper, then salt just prior to serving. But there are people who may have different results than I do, or who think that's the way meat in a stew should taste, and if that's what works for them, I have no problem with it. Salt is a curious thing. Years ago I lived on the beach in Del Mar, and when race horses had tender feet or needed to toughen up their hooves, their trainers would bring them to the beach every day and have them walk around in the sea water. It worked! If salt toughens up live meat, it's not likely to make slaughtered meat more tender. Wed Feb 11 09:28:43 -0800 2009 4406932 112096 Caroline1 1 4406965 Nicely done girl! Hey, I really mean thank you sincerely. I have always wanted to try it, but since steak is so expensive I didn't want to experiment. I trust your cooking skills and palate, so I'm trying this next time. We cook are steaks the same, cast iron skillet, a miniscue amount of oil (and I mean very little) so we sound similar with that also. I actually made three lamb chops the other night, I sure wish that I'd thought to do this test!!! I added salt to all three and I too use kosher, but I used the grinder for prior cooking. You'te the bomb Caroline! And OH HECK YEAH, I hate the wind (lived through typhoons and the Colombus Day Storm). That is some scarey _________. Been in CA for too many years. No thank you to the tornadoes! Stay safe now. Wed Feb 11 08:40:03 -0800 2009 4405245 50431 chef chicklet 2 4407102 Thank you. As for the tornado possibility, I just went to bed, turned off the TV, read and fell asleep thinking, "Either I'll wake up in the morning or I won/t. C'est la vie." And la vie was still here this morning. '-) I'd thought about doing this test before, but didn't do it because when you have a set or pre-packaged steaks or even individual steaks, you have no way of knowing whether they are from the same animal, the same muscle, and whether their variances are as narrow as possible. With these steaks, I knew they were all absolutely identical. It was fun! Wed Feb 11 09:11:34 -0800 2009 4406965 112096 Caroline1 1 4407853 My two extremely subjective cents' worth: ever since reading that Nancy Silverton salts her meat early on - including hamburgers! - I've been doing the same. Beef, pork, lamb, fish, fowl. Started doing this about the time I began keeping a glass canister of Diamond Crystal next to the cooktop, so it's easy to just dip and go. And it works beautifully for everything from thick steaks to last night's cardboard-thin chuletas de puerco, typical Mexican-market pork chops. All good, I'm happy, Mama's happy, and no guest has refused seconds. Wed Feb 11 12:46:03 -0800 2009 4405245 11478 Will Owen 1 4408575 When prepping a thick steak for cooking, I'll remove it from the fridge, salt it with Kosher salt, then let it sit for about an hour at room temp. Wed Feb 11 15:37:05 -0800 2009 4405245 13997 2chez mike 2 4408683 Funny, I was just about to post what 2chez mike said, and it was almost word for word. I have been cooking steaks on the Weber for more than 40 years....use real charcoal and get good meat, thick, and prime if you can afford it. Take out of refrigerator an hour ahead and sprinkle with more kosher salt than you think it will take. Pat it in and grill and hour later. By the way, add garlic and pepper after you take off the grill. Wed Feb 11 16:15:01 -0800 2009 4408575 12296 steakman55 3 4411620 Just what I do as well. "more kosher salt than you think it will take." Thu Feb 12 13:06:06 -0800 2009 4408683 10400 Aromatherapy 1 4410152 The votes are in and for those with an opinion on the matter 8 (myself, bkhuna, LizATL, scubadoo97, HaagenDazs, Will Owen, 2Chez mike, and steakman55 voted for salting ahead and 2 voted against (Caroline1 and Bat Guano) with one undecided (Porker). A number of posters posted support for Caroline1’s research but did not express an opinion so I did not count them as a vote one way or the other. So in my thoroughly unscientific research on this issue 80% are for pre-salting 20% are against. Thu Feb 12 07:01:17 -0800 2009 4405245 10195 KTinNYC 2 4410169 Did you count Judy Rogers in that list? I know she ONLY INCLUDED THE ADVICE IN HER COOKBOOK... ;-) Thu Feb 12 07:05:33 -0800 2009 4410152 42270 HaagenDazs 3 4410193 I didn't include Judy Rodgers or even steamy kitchen who included the advice in her blog but did not express an opinion in this thread. Only those that expressed a view on this thread was counted. This is SCIENCE, HaagenDazs. One more thing I learned during my research was that many posters have silly names. Thu Feb 12 07:09:19 -0800 2009 4410169 10195 KTinNYC 2 4410308 jfood made a PH steak last evening and only added his salt when he delivered to the table. He really enjoyed it. He did not do a side by side with the pre-salt, but he is a big fan of the salt at the table group. Thu Feb 12 07:39:25 -0800 2009 4410152 11290 jfood 2 4410355 Well, I didn't actually vote against pre-salting; I do it all the time, about 15 minutes before cooking, while the grill is heating up. What I found to produce bad results is presalting several DAYS before cooking. Now that I think about it, the steaks had almost a cured texture, like corned beef (not all the way to corned beef, but headed in that direction.) But I will try not pre-salting, something I haven't done in a long time, to see if it makes a difference, next time I cook a steak. Thu Feb 12 07:57:59 -0800 2009 4410152 98500 Bat Guano 2 4411152 Caroline - I haven't once heard you comment on the fact that your results may have been/could have been skewed as a result of your bias towards this practice based on past experience in cooking steak. After all, a true and respectable analysis of the results should include that. Any feedback there? Thu Feb 12 11:15:40 -0800 2009 4411110 42270 HaagenDazs 3 4411998 If any type of "research" is done by a human being, of course there is a possibility of personal bias coloring any conclusions. On this occasion, I had thawed what I thought was a single tournedos, based on size. When defrosted and unwrapped, it turned out to be three petite petite filets mignon. hmmm... What to do with them? Brochettes? I decided to procrastinate on the deccision and let them come to a more solid "room temperature." And then it occurred to me, this was the perfect opportunity to try testing the salting methods. They were ideal for this purpose because they all came form the same tenderloin, so there would be no tender cow/tough cow possibility to skew the results. I decided not to use any flavor enhancements beyond salt or no salt on the meat, except for a thin coat of extra version olive oil on the bottom of the cast iron pan. I do frequently top a newly finished steak with a pat of herb butter prior to serving, but this time I didn't want any extra flavor on the meat itself. I did use a bit of cabernet sauvignon on the fingerling potatoes and sauteed grape tomatoes, and I did have a glass of cab AFTER I had done a thorough investigative tasting of all three pieces of beef at least three times each before tasting anything else except water. I wasn''t thinking about what other people say about salt. I wasn't thinking about the greatest steak I ever had in my life. I wasn't thinking about great steak houses where I've dined. I was trying to taste any flavor and texture differences in the three identical steaks I had prepared. I report as accurately as I know how on what I determined above. Now, there's not a lot I can do beyond that. I'm fully aware I have a few detractors on these boards who will disagree with anything I say simply because I'm the one saying it. I'm also very flattered that there are those here who think I'm knowledgeable and appreciate what I write. But in all honesty, how people feel about me, one way or another, has no bearing on what I percieved in the steaks the night I tried this test. Therefore I didn't see anything to be gained by trying to defend what I found. I don't think there is anyone who participates on these boards who has actually met me face to face or even talked to me on the phone. If people want to think I'm biased, that's their prerogative. There is nothing I can do to change their ideas. And that's the bottom line when it comes to life. We are totally alone inside our heads. If we're walking alone in the woods and a space ship lands in front of us, hey, go tell someone about it and you're at the top of their loonie list. Someone commits a crime and drops one of your used Kleenexes at the crime scene and you were alone with no witnesses, you may end up doing time or even being executed, despite being innocent. It's an exercise in futility for me to try to convince people who don't really know me that I know what I'm talking about, or that I tried very hard to be unprejudiced in my tasting. I think the bottom line is that, whatever our biases and personal opinions may be, they are ours and ours alone, and that is as it should be. I don't mind if people don't agree or don't believe me. I do believe me, and that too is as it should be. Life is what it is. Thanks for asking. Thu Feb 12 14:40:35 -0800 2009 4411152 112096 Caroline1 4 4412352 Well put, Caroline. Seriously. I do agree with your assessment regarding what I was asking. And hell, if anyone here has any "detractors," it's me. ;-) I'm merely requesting your thoughts on the matter and you have given those. The reason I ask about it obvious though: Inherently, there is bias involved in your test simply because you knew exactly which steak was which. It's like you're having your favorite wine involved in a taste test and you're pouring the wines against 2 random others. There's no paper bags, there's no blindfolds, you know what you like, what you have grown accustomed to, and what works best given your cooking techniques. I don't think any of us are saying that what you actually perceive is wrong, I just think that there are other options out there and there is ample evidence that others have experienced different things. The point of forums (for me) is to encourage debate, ask questions, and poke and prod others (maybe too far sometimes) to reveal and admit more details about what they've cooked or experienced. It's all the name of the game and we're all here for the same purpose. You keep cooking your steak your way, and I'll do mine my way. ;-) Thu Feb 12 16:39:05 -0800 2009 4411998 42270 HaagenDazs 5 4413033 Well, not having enough steak to invite in a dozen or so unbiased strangers to participate in the test failed to bring that possibility under consideration. Being stuck with whatever amount of eidetic memory I still have at my age, playing around hiding things under paper bags that I would be able to identify by any minimally different crease or mark also made that seem like a silly waste of time. Chopping the cooked steak up to make all pieces identical, then shuffling them so I didn't know which was which seemed self defeating in the extreme. So I just struggled along trying to do the best I could under the circumstances. Now, if anyone else, you included, would like to buy a whole USDA Prime tenderloin to replicate my clumsy attempt, and bring in an unbiased group for a blind testing, I will applaud their effort and read their results with interest. The only thing I can add that you might find of interest is that I was somewhat surprised by my findings. I did expect differences in flavor, but I was quite surprised by the difference in texture. Thu Feb 12 21:11:42 -0800 2009 4412352 112096 Caroline1 1 4410379 Thanks for reporting on your experiences with this--very helpful! Thu Feb 12 08:05:17 -0800 2009 4405245 264921 Gillcer 2 4411475 I place salt and butter on the steak prior to grilling, thats the way they do it at the best steak houses in the city Thu Feb 12 12:28:53 -0800 2009 4410379 266292 shorefire 3 4411486 They do? I assumed the butter, if any, went on after it came off the grill. Otherwise, wouldn't it just burn and/or run off the meat? Thu Feb 12 12:31:32 -0800 2009 4411475 131001 c oliver 4 4411524 A place like Peter Lugers, they cook the steak, take it out, cut it up and add butter and reblast it quickly under the broiler so its all sizzling together. Thu Feb 12 12:40:18 -0800 2009 4411486 12821 ESNY 5 4411537 They cut it up??? Why would they do that? That seems really odd. I think I'd opt for no butter and to have my steak all in one piece. Thu Feb 12 12:43:55 -0800 2009 4411524 131001 c oliver 6 4411715 wouldn't a cut up steak reblasted with butter overcook it? Thu Feb 12 13:29:00 -0800 2009 4411537 80667 janetms383 7 4411750 C & J, It's cut up, then re-assembled ...as it's usually a steak for 2,3 or 4 persons. Leaving it whole would be problematic for serving purposes. http://www.peterluger.com/ourporsteak.cfm The Old Homestead, among others, does the same.....sans butter.. http://www.theoldhomesteadsteakhouse.com/index2.htm Thu Feb 12 13:35:49 -0800 2009 4411715 123497 fourunder 7 4411869 I was shocked the first time I heard and later saw thats how they do it. They cut it up and put the steak back together on the plate (bone in the middle with filet and strip pieces back where they belong) and then refire it, so the plate and fat/juice are burning hot when it gets to your table. Thu Feb 12 14:03:42 -0800 2009 4411715 12821 ESNY 8 4411890 And did you like that? Thu Feb 12 14:10:19 -0800 2009 4411869 131001 c oliver 9 4411926 I used to love it but have recently decided it no longer holds mythical status in my mind. I dont see that big of a difference between them and the rest of the dry-aged, prime steakhouse crowd in NY. The actual slicing and refiring never bothered me... I do like the puddle of melted beef fat to drizzle over yoursteak though. That being said, I would definitely not attempt this at home. I am quite certain you'd never be able to replicate the slicing, reassembling, buttering and refiring it without overcooking it. If you want to build the butter into the steak, right after you flip the steak add a big pat of butter to it. It'll melt into the steak as it finished cooking. Thu Feb 12 14:20:51 -0800 2009 4411890 12821 ESNY 10 4411953 It just sounds like some type of affectation to me. Whatever. But I/we never order steak out. We fix GREAT steaks at home. When I go out, I want to have something that I'm not likely to cook at home. But clearly there are enough people who DO like that since they seem to clearly prosper. Vive la difference. Thu Feb 12 14:27:36 -0800 2009 4411926 131001 c oliver 11 4412262 I partially agree with you, with the exception that I order steaks only at steakhouses that have prime, dry aged steaks. They can source better meat than I can get (and usually aren't that much of a premium compared to the prices for prime, dry aged steak at a butchershop). Unless I'm at one of these places, I will not order steak. Thu Feb 12 16:03:11 -0800 2009 4411953 12821 ESNY 1 4411766 We only cook large steaks,more than 2#.Home grown,pasture raised with supplements of cow cake(40% grain) alfalfa or clover hay if they want it.Unwrapped in the frig 24 to 48 hours for a dry surface.30 minutes prior to cooking ;salamander or charcoal grill I salt,with as much Kosher salt as the surface will take,rest on wire(no slimy surface),cook when room temp.We eat our steaks as rare to raw as can be. The above is the in general most preferred method after years of asking etc.Have tried and still use all of Caroline's methods,but for me #1 choice is nearly no salt after cooking I like beef much more than I like salt,don't much like salt,from a family of low salt users. Thu Feb 12 13:39:49 -0800 2009 4405245 203919 lcool 1 4417231 Caroline, I must say you started an entertaining post. By the reactions from some, you would think that Congress just passed a bill saying Caroline's findings are fact and must be adheared to....LOL.. I appreciated your post. Won't change how I do things, but I appreciated your findings. Me, I'm a salt and pepper while the meat gets to room temp and the grill is warming up. Although I did try a different method last night....gotta talk to her and see what I did wrong... BTW....when you are ready to do the crabcake test....Broiled vs pan fried....I'm willing to be your unbiased judge.....hell, I'll even wear a blindfold if it pleases some..... ;) Sat Feb 14 10:37:35 -0800 2009 4405245 261880 cb1 2 4417459 LOL! Thank you. If only my kids had paid such intense attention to everything I said while they were growing up! The Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex is not exactly my idea of a great place to research crab cakes, so until the time comes that I ever relocate to house on a beach (highly improbable) where I can scramble over rocks for my very own crabs, I don't think I'll be doing that. As a native Californian, I am passionate over Dungeness crab. I can get it locally. But absolutely no guarantee on quality control. It's always frozen, and no promises on whether it's the first time. So for now I console myself with adventures in edible land dwelling critters and plants, with active and fond memories of beach comber days with a diet of giant 9 inch abalone and other sea critters dancing sharply over my taste memories. As any dog can tell you, once you've feasted on premium table food, it's hard to relish a bowl of kibble! Sat Feb 14 12:42:49 -0800 2009 4417231 112096 Caroline1 1 4417778 As a working scientist, you’ve all prodded me to wake up and growl. What C1 did was reasonably scientific. She formulated a question (“When is it best to salt a steak?”), devised three treatments based on different salting procedures, and then controlled for other factors (i.e., meat came from one piece, cooking was the same, reduced influence from the sides). Very good. As to the suggestion that C1 knew which treatment was which and that her assessment reflects her previously held bias – could be, but I don’t see any evidence for it. What is sound scientifically is that C1 provided a clear method that can be replicated by others. If others do the same experiment and report on the results, the findings could change. Unfortunately, any end results reflect subjective preferences – more problematic than introduced biases. Wine and steak tasting is not science. Such tasting can be made more objective and “scientific” in the sense that methods are clear and replicable – but in the end, we are talking about what we like in terms of taste (and texture in the case of the steaks). And all that is needed to be reasonably scientific is for others to adopt the same method, give it a try and report their results. The result would simply be the percent of people preferring one of the three treatments over the other two. More people would like one treatment, fewer would like another, and a lowest percentage would like the third. Finally, there are various types of scientific methods, from the very empirical (controlled experimental or observational) to hypothetico-deductive (from the big idea to what we observe) processes. Science is both quantitative and qualitative. Most important is that science is evidence based, builds on itself in a continual learning process, and always provides clear methods or logics so that anyone else can participate and continue to contribute. C1 did quite well. The rest of you should add the results of your testing to make this a “scientific” discussion. Sat Feb 14 15:02:40 -0800 2009 4405245 36661 Sam Fujisaka 2 4422995 The only one who claimed they were doing "research" was Caroline1. The rest of us just expressed an opinion on which method we prefer and the majority prefer salting before. If you want to discuss the scientific method you could start a new thread. Mon Feb 16 16:42:38 -0800 2009 4417778 10195 KTinNYC 1 4424019 Just a friendly reminder, Folks, this is a thread about salting meat. Posts that stray off topic will be removed. Thanks. Tue Feb 17 04:55:25 -0800 2009 4405245 2 The Chowhound Team 1 4425314 next time try a blind taste test. Have someone else prepare them in the manner which you used and see if you can tell the difference. Tue Feb 17 11:16:06 -0800 2009 4405245 153975 bw2082 2 4425333 Well, as I said before, it was an impromptu experiment, and doing a blind test would, out of courtesy, require providing a USDA Prime steak for the other person. I had only thawed out one portion. But I would be very interested in others duplicating my experiment and reporting their results. How about you starting it off? '-) Tue Feb 17 11:21:26 -0800 2009 4425314 112096 Caroline1 3 4425366 Now, Caroline, so when I come there, you're not willing to buy, prep and cook the tenderloin(s) and let me be the "royal taster." You stingy ole thing, you :) Tue Feb 17 11:29:47 -0800 2009 4425333 131001 c oliver 3 4425373 no,but if Caroline is ever in DC i would be pleased to provide the table and beef. Tue Feb 17 11:32:52 -0800 2009 4425333 203919 lcool 3 4425827 coliver and lcool, that's not what I meant. I meant that the night I did it, I only had one portion thawed and never really thought about doing it blind. I could have called my personal assistant and invited her and her husband -- he's head chef at an Italian restaurant -- and had a group tasting, since you guys aren't exactly twenty minutes away! '-). But blind or no blind, I tryly was surprised at the results! I did expect differences in flavor and possibly even a discernable difference in saltiness, but I was totally surprised at the difference in texture and tenderness between the presalted and post salted steaks! Did not expect that! I think the post I mentiond it in was deleted, but now I'm seriously wondering if there would have been a difference between a steak salted 20 minutes or so prior to cooking, one salted immediately prior to cooking, one salted after cooking and prior to resting, and one salted prior to eating. I'm wondering if the muscle tissue in the steak salted just prior to cooking "seized up" and whether they would have relaxed and returned to tender with a longer period prior to hitting the pan? You know, we could turn this into a very interesting experiement on Chow. Set terms for methodology -- the meat must come from the same muscle of one steer, must be cooked identically, but when the salt is introduced must vary -- and collect data on everyone's findings. It isn't really necessary that everyone use USDA Prime beef because it would be interesting to know if the conditions and results hold true for all grades of beef as well as all varieties, meaning grass fed, corn fed, junk fed, wet aged or dry aged. Any volunteers????? Tue Feb 17 13:20:47 -0800 2009 4425333 112096 Caroline1 4 4427664 as i learned, caroline, from my own blind "organic milk" taste test, it became a waste of breath to explain my test and defend my test findings to some... Wed Feb 18 02:26:20 -0800 2009 4425827 105717 alkapal 5 4428260 Strange, isn't it? Wed Feb 18 08:25:53 -0800 2009 4427664 112096 Caroline1 3 4429783 Caroline, I take you up on your challenge! Or rather, the science nerd in me can't resist... Abstract: In a non-blind tasting of two steaks, the steak salted after being cooked was percieved as being significantly more tender, and possibly more flavorful, than the steak salted a quarter hour before being cooked. Both steaks married well with the green-pepper-fennel sauce with which they were accompanied, as well as the red Côtes-du-Rhone. More research is warrented. Introduction The researcher often salts steaks after they are cooked out of fear of oversalting, especially when served with sauce. The assumption of both the researcher, as well as his co-subject, was that salting before cooking would produce a steak of superior texture and flavor. Previous research on this topic has been all over the map, and neither the researcher nor the co-subject have paid much attention to the question. Methodology Babygirl bought two steaks, each approximately 150g in mass, cut at a slight diagonal, each ranging from approximately 2 to 1,5 cm in thickness from one end to the other (they were filleted). The biftèques were from a normande breed cow who was pastured and ate only organic grasses and herbs. Babygirl isn't sure which cut the steaks were, but homeboy knows the butcher and is pretty sure they are from the portion near the tenderloin, by the backbone (le faux filet de dos, I never got the hang of American cuts). The sauce was prepared first. Green pepper, white wine, mustard, shallots, fennel bulp and fennel green, plus reduced-fat crème fraîche, were the ingredients. It was reeeaaallly good, despite lacking in salt. Cooking began approximately 15 minutes after Bifthèque n° 1 was salted. Bifhtèque n° 1 was salted on both sides. A good pinch was given to each one, about per side what one might use on top of the cooked steak. Bifthèque n° 2 was not salted. Both were brought to nearly ambiant temperature before cooking. Both steaks were cooked in a hot pan for 2 min on the first side, then 1,5 on the second. This resulted in a perfect cuisson saignante (rare). Both steaks were then placed on a warmed platter, over a bit of hot sauce. Bifthèque n° 2 was then salted. The salt in all cases was La Baleine brand fine sea salt. The two steaks were cut lengthwise and topped with sauce just before serving. Both were served to homeboy and his girlfriend, babyirl. Results Both steaks married well with the sauce. Both steaks married reasonably well with the wine (a 2003 red Côtes-du-Rhone), although babygirl thought that bifthèque n° 1 went better with the acidic, white Tourain that was also served, than it did with the lovely, spicy red. Homeboy acknowleges this while maintaining that shit ain't right. Bifthèque n° 1 was tough. There's no two ways around this. Compared to bifthèque n° 2, homeboy thought his jaw was going to fall off; babygirl maintains that it was not butter, but so what, homeboy's a pussy, and he's worked his jaw before. Both agreed that the taste of bifthèque n° 1 was of moderate intensity, with much vibrancy, but little specific echo. Bifthèque n° 2 was juicy. Babygirl, who generally prefers salty foods, exclaimed, "ah ah ah, that's really good" [tr] "that's the shit!" This steak, from its saignant section to its nearly-à-point secton, was much more tender than bifthèque n° 1, and very, very , very, very reeeeeallllly full of flavor. Like, spend your financial aid check good. Conclusion Do I have to write this? Salt. Your. Meat. Later. Babygirl says that homeboy needs to get his ass to bed very soon. Like, yesterday. The juicy one, the juicy one! Okay, that's a vote. But USDA Prime?!? Really!?! When in the US, I always thought that was kind of gross meat, and tried to get local, pastured meat when I could. That was good shit. Wed Feb 18 14:47:52 -0800 2009 4425333 177724 tmso 4 4429902 Bravo! Fantastique. Et bon, la science d'amusement aussi bien. Wed Feb 18 15:20:51 -0800 2009 4429783 36661 Sam Fujisaka 4 4430556 Excellent! I can't wait to cook a steak and salt it afterwards, now about that sauce...... Wed Feb 18 18:49:48 -0800 2009 4429783 50431 chef chicklet 5 4430568 Why cook? I just want to go to Paris and meet Babygirl and homeboy! Wed Feb 18 18:55:15 -0800 2009 4430556 131001 c oliver 5 4434857 The sauce was pretty easy. Cooked some minced shallot in a little butter with a few green peppercorns. Added white wine, a piece of fennel bulb, the low-fat crème fraîche and mustard. Simmered until it thickened, removed the fennel bulb, added a bunch of finely ground green pepper and some minced fennel greens. Pretty simple to prepare, but the quality of the peppercorns and mustard are very important. I use a fairly acidic white wine. If you have a gentler one, you might want to adjust with a bit of lemon or wine vinegar. Fri Feb 20 02:12:19 -0800 2009 4430556 177724 tmso 6 4435264 Aren't low-fat products illegal in France??? Fri Feb 20 07:12:27 -0800 2009 4434857 131001 c oliver 7 4435734 Oh wow, no, reduced-fat dairy products are quite common, 5% mg hamburgers are everywhere, and Coca Light is very popular. Full fat dairy, cheeses, and so on, are also common, of course. If I have company over, I'll use the real stuff; on a random Wednesday night, I'll use the reduced fat, if I'm making a sauce. Bread for breakfast on a weekday, but brioche on Sunday. We're a pair of skinny Parisians who would like to stay that way. Fri Feb 20 09:12:49 -0800 2009 4435264 177724 tmso 8 4435776 I WAS just joking :) We're planning two house exchanges next year with two weeks in the Dordogne region and two in Paris. Soooo looking forward to the food, of course. Fri Feb 20 09:22:00 -0800 2009 4435734 131001 c oliver 6 4435507 yum. I love the sauce you described. NIce. Thank you for sharing! Fri Feb 20 08:12:44 -0800 2009 4434857 50431 chef chicklet 4 4431039 YAY! Hooray for science nerds! And isn't it absolutely amazing what salt does to make the meat tougher? Who'da thunk it? It's really interesting that you salted your pre-cooked steak fifteen minutes ahead of time. I salted mine just before cooking -- salt and into the pan -- and as a result, I've been wondering whether the initial salt contact made the tissue seize up, and whether salting earlier and giving it a chance to relax would reduce the toughness. Obviously not! That's interesting. I think the lesson is to not be afraid to challenge tradition. Ain't nothing wrong with checking things out for yourself. And now I'm wondering how many times in my lifetime I've grumbled about being sold tough steaks when I may have made them tough myself by salting them before I cooked them? As for American cuts of beef, they are in a constant state of confusing evolution. I gave up on trying to stay current years ago. And if you want an entrecote in the U.S., the most reliable way to get it is to buy a side of ribs and go home and cut them yourself! A butcher will just look at you with a blank stare. Wed Feb 18 21:23:07 -0800 2009 4429783 112096 Caroline1 5 4431157 I thought C1 bowed out of chowhound due to the mad hatters et al.? I salt 15 minutes prior, love the crust and flavor. Wed Feb 18 22:45:11 -0800 2009 4431039 186887 toutefrite 6 4431164 The irreconcilable differences were reconciled. Wed Feb 18 22:51:45 -0800 2009 4431157 112096 Caroline1 5 4434858 I was planning on it hitting the pan about 5 min after salting, but you know how things go. Oops, the salad! Where's my wine glass? Did I warm the plates? Oh yeah, bread ... in the end it was 15 min. I do think it made an interesting extra data point combined with yours, even if it was a bit accidental. And since I only cooked my steaks rare, it doesn't look like the medium-rare doneness was the cause either. I was wondering the same thing myself about all the steaks I've probably had come out less-than-optimal from salting. Fri Feb 20 02:18:36 -0800 2009 4431039 177724 tmso 1 4431447 i am thinking that if salt has been used historically to cure meat by removing moisture and changing the make-up (somehow) of the meat, then this insight may clarify why salting ahead of time may toughen the meat. i came upon this study regarding the salting process for jamón, http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:w68FCC3Aqq8J:ohioline.osu.edu/sc172/sc172_11.html+salt+affect+on+meat+tissue&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us&client=safari which addresses the absorption mechanism, the diffusion process, and the affect on muscle tissue. among the study results, "The low initial results [of salt absoprtion and concentration in muscle tissue] might be due to the time required for the initial brine formation outside the ham tissue. Initial salt penetration in meat requires that water from the product escapes from the ham to create a brine solution..... [i]n salting food products, complex mechanisms operate. In addition to the simple diffusion due to the differences in concentration, salt diffuses into meat tissues due to osmotic processes in the membranes, flowing through capillary spaces ...... Salt can influence the tissue structure...." ....As salt diffuses into the tissues, there is a [speeding mechanism, via the salt's interaction with the meat proteins that increases diffusion in the meat]. As the proteins hydrate, the penetration "paths" become smaller until about a 6-8% diffusion. Then as further diffusion occurs, "proteins shrink and the paths again open, increasing" diffusion. maybe the above research helps explain why brining works (because after a certain point the muscle structure changes, but moisture is increased in the muscle tissue). here is an insight from another study: "Retail meat cuts of pork are frequently enhanced with salt solutions to improve flavor, extend shelf life, reduce microbial contamination, and improve tenderness." http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?SEQ_NO_115=188899 so maybe salt in solution is a tenderizer, while salt on outside proteins is a toughener. i have to think on this more. food for thought! i don't know, because i haven't done the experiment. but salting only just before eating seems logical, considering the functional effect of salt on animal tissue. Thu Feb 19 05:47:17 -0800 2009 4405245 105717 alkapal 1 4435393 OK, I'm inspired - I'm gonna do this over the weekend. Here's what I've got to work with: -- a 3-rib rib roast that is to be enlisted into the cause of science by being cut up into 3 nice thick rib steaks; -- a willing (?) girlfriend/guinea pig who will provide unbiased reviews of the resulting products as I feed them to her without her knowing which piece was from which steak. I don't see a way to do double-blind, but single-blind is doable. My plan is to salt one the way I normally do: about 15 minutes before cooking, while the grill is heating up; one just before cooking; and one after cooking, just before popping it into the piehole. So, does anybody have any other methodological tips or recommendations? Here's your chance to make sure I do as rigorous a test as possible. Let's hear them! Fri Feb 20 07:46:22 -0800 2009 4405245 98500 Bat Guano 2 4435810 Bat, what I'd love to see is what happens if you also have a piece that's salted hours ahead--even overnight or for 24 hours--to mimic the Zuni Cafe suggestions more closely. Fri Feb 20 09:30:46 -0800 2009 4435393 12327 PegS 3 4435955 Why not give it a try yourself? The more people we have challenging the old tradition of "salt first," the more valid our group findings. It may be true that I had expectations prior to trying my challenge, but I certainly wasn't prepared for the results. I expected variances in flavor, not in texture! So next time you're having steak, why not cut everyone's portion in half and salt one half at whatever period prior to cooking you'd like (I too am interested in the results of a 24 hour pre-salting) then let us know what your outcome is.. Think about it? '-) Fri Feb 20 10:04:04 -0800 2009 4435810 112096 Caroline1 3 4436068 I was thinking that, too. If you salt just before cooking, you'll pull the water out of the meat so it, logically, would be tougher. But, if you salt it early enough, then the salt and water could reabsorb back into the meat. Overnight might be a good way to go. Fri Feb 20 10:37:39 -0800 2009 4435810 39874 chowser 3 4436498 NO! I'm not doing that. I've established to my satisfaction - and written about it in a separate post, further up - that it produces bad results. That was a pre-salt several days in advance, and I do not care to repeat the mistake, especially with the good piece of meat I have to work with - it'd be a shame to ruin it. Fri Feb 20 12:28:48 -0800 2009 4435810 98500 Bat Guano 4 4436515 Sorry - didn't mean to shout. But I really didn't like the long pre-salt results. Fri Feb 20 12:32:34 -0800 2009 4436498 98500 Bat Guano 1 4436438 At the risk of muddying the waters, I looked up the CI (May/Jun 03) article about marinating steak tips, because I recalled something about soy sauce as a preferred tenderizer for beef. They wound up devising soy-based marinades, used for an hour, after which the meat was patted dry and grilled. Mention was made of rubbery texture when the tips were grilled rare; well-done ones were tender and still juicy, thanks to the marinade. Tenderness was also improved by allowing the grilled tips to rest 5 minutes before serving. This helps explain Bat Guano's experience with pre-salted steaks that were refrigerated for a couple of days before cooking to a rubbery rare texture - sounds like they might have become tender with longer cooking. Because the salt is dissolved in the soy sauce, it gets into the meat quickly. A note in the July/Aug 2004 issue said that when regular soy sauce was compared to low-sodium, beef and chicken marinated in regular had more pronounced soy flavor and a more tender texture, but that using low-sodium made the meat "far better" than non-marinated. The tests they ran established that it was in fact the soy, not acidic ingredients in the marinades, that tenderized the meat (acids made the surface mushy). I recall another article about soy sauce to tenderize beef but couldn't find it. The conclusion here backs up the approach of salting before cooking, along the lines of brining other meats. I don't have a dog in this fight, since I rarely cook steak and when I do, it's sat in Mr. Yoshida's Cooking Sauce (a teriyaki-style marinade) first, then patted dry. That stuff is plenty salty on its own. I weaned myself from the salt shaker decades ago so if I WERE going to grill a plain steak, I would opt for salting the finished portion - that way, the saltiness is more pronounced and less is required. There's already hidden salt in foods we buy; I don't want to hide it when I cook. Intellectually, I can rationalize either the before or after technique, since experiences conflict. Perceptions of saltiness differ from palate to palate, as well - as anyone who has cut out salt can attest. Once you're getting less of it, commercially-prepared foods taste very salty indeed. Fri Feb 20 12:13:11 -0800 2009 4405245 159317 greygarious 1 4440206 I'm about 5 hours into heavy salt on one, none on the other. Had planned on cooking tomorror but just got home and this is really all we have that's ready to go. So we'll do it tonight and see. There's a significant amount of liquid that has released from the salted steak. None from the other. I just have a feeling that this technique needs a LONG time. Will report back later. (Isn't it nice and kinda amazing that this thread got back to where it started and is now productive?) Sat Feb 21 18:28:24 -0800 2009 4405245 131001 c oliver 2 4440278 Exactly! Sat Feb 21 19:07:34 -0800 2009 4440206 36661 Sam Fujisaka 2 4440398 YAY! And thank you. I'm really looking forward to your findings! Sat Feb 21 20:25:04 -0800 2009 4440206 112096 Caroline1 3 4440422 Well, the test will have to be postponed. Once we really looked at these two little steaks, it was clear that they weren't "related" to each other :) So results are invalidated. But the salted one, after five hours, was really salty tasty - more than I would consider acceptable. But I want to give it a 24 hour test to see. Inquiring minds want to know. More later. Sat Feb 21 20:40:33 -0800 2009 4440398 131001 c oliver 4 4440457 Thanks! '-) Sat Feb 21 21:13:13 -0800 2009 4440422 112096 Caroline1 1 4468812 OK, I tried this, as follows: salted (and peppered) one of two identical steaks (adjacent cuts from the same rib roast) about 15 minutes before cooking, and the other only after cooking and resting. (Turns out I was mistaken in my previous post, if you're following along - there were only 2 ribs in that piece). Cooked them side-by-side on the grill, for the same length of time, flipping both at the same time, switching positions of the steaks with each flip, to medium-rare. Actually closer to rare-med-rare, since they were pretty thick, thicker than I realized, which threw off my doneness judgement; but they were fine this way. Let them both rest, then cut pieces from each one with part of the outside section, the inside section, from the same area of the steak in each case. Salted and peppered the one that hadn't been seasoned just before eating. Poured a glass of cabernet to cleanse the palate between bites. The GF did not agree to be the GP (guinea pig), and insisted on knowing which was which, but otherwise participated in the tasting. Results: In terms of texture and dryness, neither of us could discern any difference between the two steaks. Some bites of the pre-unseasoned one were slightly tougher and dryer than the pre-seasoned one, and some vice-versa. Not a significant difference in any case; we probably wouldn't have noticed had we not been paying particular attention. However, in terms of taste, there was a significant difference. The one that was not seasoned before cooking had a much fresher-beef taste, with a taste of beef and salt that were separate, if that makes sense. In the one seasoned before cooking, the beef and salt flavors sort of melded together more, with the result of a less-assertive beef flavor; I'll go back to the idea of freshness as the adjective of choice, for lack of a better one - tasted less of fresh beef. In other words, the taste of the steak came through better in the one seasoned immediately prior to eating; I preferred it over the pre-seasoned one, and so did the GP, er, GF. Sure, I am under no illusions that this is a scientific test; but the results for me were significant enough for me to change my preferred method of cooking steaks. I used to pre-season while the grill was heating up routinely, without really thinking about it. NOT ANY MORE. From now on I will cook the steaks unseasoned, and season after resting, on the plate. Again, not from dryness/texture concerns, but purely on taste concerns. Try it - you may find it works for you, too. Tue Mar 03 07:55:17 -0800 2009 4405245 98500 Bat Guano 1 4468892 That sounds odd to me. I marinade with sea salt and olive oil for hours before. They always come out delicious and tender as hell. Plus I pan-fry then grill (broil in US) also, I never used to know about marinade, and would add salt after, but then I liked steaks medium well. Tue Mar 03 08:17:05 -0800 2009 4405245 180623 Soop