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how to cook a sirloin tip roast?

n
nomdeplume Jan 28, 2009 02:48 PM

I got a small (2lbs) sirloin tip roast as part of a large order from a beef co-op. Can I just rub this herbs, brown, and slow roast like standing rib roast? The meet is actually vacuum packed, so I was thinking about also trying sous vide with a candy thermometer and then browning afterward. Any suggestions?

  1. t
    tonhin Sep 14, 2012 04:35 AM

    On a slightly different note (I hope it's okay to post here) - we've just returned from a holiday in Australia, where I had the most amazing BEEF filet ever. I would like to know, if any of you think it is possible, after you have read the recipe, to substitute filet for roast beef, as filet is stupidly expensive here in Germany.

    You roll the filet in soyasauce and brown sugar.
    Cook on the BBQ for 25 minutes, constantly turning it.
    Wrap it in 5 layers of tin foil and keep at room temperature for 2 hours.
    Before you cute it, you make a marinade (olive oil, chili flakes and soysauce if I remember correctly) which you then pour over the sliced meat.
    DELICIOUS!!!

    6 Replies
    1. re: tonhin
      f
      fourunder Sep 14, 2012 07:07 AM

      t,

      You certainly can BBQ, or Grill a Whole Tenderloin. What you need to do is decide on your temperature and allow for carryover heat, which will rise 5-7 degrees(F8*). I would recommend you make sure you tie off the tenderloin first to make sure the beef is even thickness for even temperature. To ensure you do not over-cook, a digital probe thermometer will help as well.

      The only other concern is whether you will be using Charcoal or Gas. Depending on the grill, you will have hot spots so you may want to sear the meat and cook over indirect heat with the cover closed.

      1. re: fourunder
        t
        tonhin Sep 14, 2012 07:25 AM

        I completely forgot, that the beef cuts in the States will not have the same names as here. I've just looked up what cut a tenderloin is. It would be the same cut as a filet here in Germany or eye fillet in Australia. I however would be using more or less what you would call a sirloin, or the no. 6 cut on the picture in the link below.

        http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?t...

        I will be using a gas grill.

        1. re: tonhin
          f
          fourunder Sep 14, 2012 07:42 AM

          The #6 section could be determined to be either New York Strip Sirloin or Top Sirloin. Strip Sirloin is mostly used for steaks, but it does make for an excellent whole roast during the holidays. Top Sirloin can also be used for steaks as well, but of cheaper quality. the New York Strip is one type of steak you will find in the best restaurants, while the Top Sirloin is what you would find in typical lower chain type restaurants here in the States. The Strip Portion when cut into 3 inch cuts makes for an excellent beef cut to share for 2-3. The top sirloin is a good alternative for a cheaper budget.

          Here is a recent Top Sirloin Steak I made with the reverse sear process. You can see the results in the pictures I uploaded.

          http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/8666...

          1. re: fourunder
            t
            tonhin Sep 14, 2012 08:04 AM

            Looks yummy and it's making me hungry:)

            This is what the cut looks like here:

            http://cucina-casalinga.blogspot.de/2...

            As it's rather flat, can you imagine preparing it in the same way as the tenderloin I had in Australia? Maybe it would be best to tie it so it is rounder, yet I can imagine that the thread will burn. Any suggestions?

            1. re: tonhin
              f
              fourunder Sep 14, 2012 08:38 AM

              http://www.amazingribs.com/images/beef/retail_beef_cuts.jpg

              http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=C...

              If you look at the links above, the link you highlighted suggest to me that the meat is actually a Round Tip Cut.....a cut suitable for roasting. I do not think this would be good grilled in 25 minutes....but that's my tastes. I do not find Round to particularly flavorful and I think there are better options ...and by that I mean, for arguments sake, for $4USD, rather than purchase Top or Eye Round, I can purchase Hanger, Skirt, Top Blade/Flat Iron and Chuck Roast and Top Butt Sirloin.

              With regards to making it rounder, yes you could. Butchers will normally tie this roast off to form it into a more circular shape for final presentation. Should you decide to tie off any roast, simply use some oil to lubricate the twine....by doing so, it will burn, but not catch fire easily.

              I suggest you look into what is known as The Top Blade or Flat Iron Cut...sometimes called Underblade. It a very flavorful but of beef and very tender. The only drawback is the gristle that runs through the middle, but you could separate into two pieces removing the gristle and prepare as you indicated....but I would say it would take 20 minutes for a whole roast....7-10 minutes separated into a steak..

              1. re: fourunder
                t
                tonhin Sep 14, 2012 09:09 AM

                Thanks fourunder! I will take a look now. Have a nice weekend:)

    2. d
      dianne0712 Jan 18, 2012 09:19 AM

      Small, lean roasts were always hard for me. I could never do it right (to me that is; perfectly pink all the way through) until my sister catered my wedding. She told me how to do it the next week. Rub the roast with oil,garlic powder, salt and pepper ( or any seasoning that you like). Heat oven to 400 degrees and roast 15-20 minutes per Lb. Remove for oven and let rest at least 15 minutes before carving.I couldn't believe that she wanted me to blast it at such a high heat and for such a short time. I thought it would be awful! Fortunately she was right and now I have perfect rare roast every time.

      1. p
        Puffin3 Jan 16, 2012 06:36 AM

        Use a 'dry rub' that you think sounds good. Put a shallow tin foil tray about two inches high upside down in a dutch oven or slow cooker. Place the raost on the tin foil pan. Don't add any liquid. Slow cook at 200 F for about six-eight hours. Remove the roast a rest it for a hour under tin foil. Boil a couple of cups of good red wine down to half a cup. Add any pan juices. 'Mount the reduction by whisking in a small amount of butter to emulsify.

        1. b
          Brunhilde Nov 22, 2011 07:58 PM

          Isn't this the same cut as a tri-tip? I can sear a 2 lb tri-tip in a 14 inch cast iron skillet, then throw it in a 425 oven for 25 minutes, let it rest while I deglaze the pan with red wine & stock, and you have one of my family's favorites! My dad has a 16 inch skilled that when I do the same thing, I'll throw 4 or 5 halved shallows in to roast with the tri-tip. A smaller pan it creates too much liquid.

          1. danna Nov 9, 2011 11:41 AM

            I am fairly new to making roast beef...but here are the notes I took last winter:

            Roast Beast

            3 lb. Sirloin Tip Roast (Whole Foods), tied

            Bring to room temp. Salt liberally. Mix a paste of brown sugar, horseradish sauce, black pepper, coriander, cumin, smoked paprika. Rub over meat. Place roast on rack over drip pan, add water to drip pan. Scatter rosemary twigs on rack.

            Roast at 325 until meat comes up to 110, reduce oven temp to 275. Pull at 125 degrees on meat thermometer for extra-rare, wrap in aluminum foil - it should come up another 5-6 degrees. Expect roasting to take around an hour.

            Hand whip ¼ cup cream until just thick, stir in 2 Tbs horseradish, serve on the side.

            Notes: this is ridiculously easy and made a great roast. Sandwiches have been awesome. I sliced it fairly thin w/ an electric carving knife. The very center was perhaps a little too rare (if that’s possible) which is actually what I wanted so that for one leftover meal I can reheat those slices a little without over cooking them , make mushroom gravy and have open faced sandwiches.

            This was just about as good as roast tenderloin, but quite a bit cheaper.

            1. f
              fourunder Jan 28, 2009 04:40 PM

              This is a response I made earlier today on another thread. It is copied and pasted, but it should work for you with the sirloin tip. I used it for Chuck Roast and it comes out very tender. Sirloin is a better cut beef, so you should receive excellent results as well. Cook's Illustrated considers Sirloin Top Butt/Tip Roast to be the poor man's Prime Rib. Slow roasting is how companies like Boar's Head and Thumann's prepare their deli meats ....usually for 8-10 hours @215-225*. Depending on the shape of your (2lb) roast, I would suggest checking the temperature at around two hours for your desired doneness.
              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

              In a sense, I am like yourself, trying to find new ways to cook inexpensive cuts of meat and have them come out tender...the problem is I like my meat medium-rare, so traditionally it's difficult to do so with cheaper cuts......no longer, so I have found out.

              In the last couple of years, I have been slow roasting my meats....beef, pork and turkey, at low temperatures between 225-275*. A few years back I read an article in cooks Illustrated that tested different kinds of roasts cooked at varying degrees of temperature from 225-500*...It was determined that 225* was the best for moist and tender roast.....my experimentation has confirmed this to be true and now it is my preferred method for roasting meats...especially for Prime Rib Roasts. I have also had excellent results with the following beef cuts as well:

              Hanger Steak
              Tri-Tip, Flap, or Newport roast
              Chuck Roast , Blade/Underblade
              Top Butt Sirloin

              I usually purchase my meats in wholesale packaging....but when there is a sale at the store, I request the in-store butchers to cut my roasts a minimum of two inches, but I prefer 2.5-3.0 inches thick.

              I marinade is simple soy sauce, fresh cracked pepper, garlic and oil for 24-48 hours.......Remove from the refrigerator and let sit close to room temperature.....place on a wire rack and cookie sheet pan....roast @ 225* for three hours, not opening the door once. I brown on the broil setting at the end of the roasting period. A perfect medium-rare, tender with excellent beefy flavor......this is for the larger, thicker cut. I would suggest 2 hours roasting time for smaller, thinner cuts.

              I am now a fan of the cheaper cuts.....just not in pot roasts or crock pot cooking.

              79 Replies
              1. re: fourunder
                i
                ios94 Oct 25, 2011 07:31 AM

                I'm bringing up this old post since I was directed to it via another thread for a recommendation on how to prepare a Sirloin Top Roast.

                Would these same instructions be fit for a sirloin tip roast that is more of a roast size (as seen here, http://www.themeatsource.com/sirlointiproast.html) as opposed to what fourunder's instructions are above which seem to be describing a 2 inch thick sirloin as seen here, http://www.recipetips.com/glossary-te....

                Thanks

                1. re: ios94
                  f
                  fourunder Oct 25, 2011 08:23 AM

                  The size and shape of the meat are most important, but you must also factor in the weight of the roast as well. At a certain point, the meat size and weight will not ultimately determine the total cooking time. e,g,, ...a whole top butt sirloin, which is round in shape, will take longer than a full boneless rib-eye roast, which is flatter, cooked to medium-rare temperature throughout. When I did an experiment with different sized chuck roasts, i made the mistake of overcooking past medium-rare with a heavier piece of meat because it was a half inch or so thinner.

                  http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/7572...

                  In general, the instructions are the same for low and slow roasting methods....the cooking time varies depending on temperature setting, size and shape of roast and weight......please note however, a 7 pound roast does not take twice as long to reach temperature as a 3.5 pound roast does, From your link to the meatsource above, the picture is of a halved roast. I prefer to seam out the beef into three smaller/flatter roasts for quicker cooking and easier slicing.

                  ...many supermarkets split it down the middle with each half tied into smaller roast.

                  If you provide more specific details to the size, shape and weight of the roast, I'll comeback and provide you with more specific instructions as I would prepare...whether at home or in a commercial kitchen.

                  1. re: fourunder
                    i
                    ios94 Oct 25, 2011 09:58 AM

                    Nice info fourunder, thanks.

                    The sirloin roast in question is approx 3 lbs, the size and shape is very similar to the link I posted from meatsource above although probably a touch smaller in diameter. Also, please note it's grass fed beef so it's quite lean. Do you have any experiments with pastured beef?

                    1. re: ios94
                      f
                      fourunder Oct 26, 2011 12:11 AM

                      Assuming you will simply roast the meat with salt & pepper or a rub.....and @ a temperature of 200-250* to medium-rare or medium temperature: Be sure to take your roast out of the refrigerator 1-2 hours before roasting to bring the roast closer to room temperature. This greatly affects the roasting time, i.e., a room temperature roast compared to a cold one straight from the fridge. Place the roast on the middle rack, or on the rung just above the bottom or lowest setting

                      You have the choice of browning in the oven, or on the stove. I prefer to sear on the stove for smaller roasts at the beginning, rather than a high heat blast in the oven at the beginning or at the end.. This reduces the chance you will over-cook the roast past your desired temperature. For larger roasts, I prefer to brown at the end to form a crust. This is how I prepare my holiday Prime Rib Roasts.

                      Slow-roasted beef is a long process, but the ends may justify the means on this one. Slow roasting beef @ low temperatures mimic the dry aging process, tenderizes naturally and reduces shrinkage......as opposed to roasting @ 350* or higher. To roast beef slowly, preheat the oven to 250+ degrees F. After it is preheated, wait an additional 20 minutes before putting the roast in. Then put the roast in the oven and/or lower the temp to 200-225 F. Cook the meat until it gets to 120 degrees F (2.5–5 hours).

                      If you plan to prepare ahead of time and hold the roast for some time before serving, then take it out of the oven and cover it with aluminum foil to keep it warm...or hold it in your oven on the lowest warm oven setting for 20-60 minutes before serving....... Turn the oven up to 500 degrees F. Put the roast back in uncovered, and cook to your desired temp. The last stage gives the outside the caramelized flavor we all like. Let the roast rest for 20 minutes before slicing.

                      Personally, I like to allow myself enough time to roast at 215-225*. I find there is less margin for error and the meat comes out more tender. Depending on the efficiency of your oven and other variables, I suspect this would take about 2-3 hours cooking time. If you want to speed it up a bit you could roast at 250 and it could save you 30-60 minutes......These are basic guidelines...but you could assure exact results with a temperature probe thermometer.

                      With regards to grass-fed/pastured beef.....my experience( not science ) with low and slow roasting achieves similar temperature results.....but with less overall cooking time.....however, I attribute this to the nature of the smaller cattle, and thus, the smaller sizes of the the meat cuts.....Grilling for sure seems to need a more watchful eye to prevent overcooking.

                      1. re: fourunder
                        i
                        ios94 Oct 26, 2011 09:38 AM

                        Good stuff fourunder. I'll let you know how it turns out.

                        1. re: ios94
                          i
                          ios94 Nov 7, 2011 09:55 AM

                          Thanks for the info fourunder, cooked the roast at 225, It took about 3.5 hrs to get to just under 140F internal temp. It turned out really good especially considering it was very very very lean, I could say it tasted even better today as leftovers. There were pretty much no drippings, that's how lean it was.

                          1. re: ios94
                            f
                            fourunder Nov 9, 2011 05:33 AM

                            Very nice to hear....

                            Try slow roasting your turkey and pork for similar results......also with cheaper beef cuts as well. I recently roasted a 12 pound chuck steak/roast that was excellent tasting and surprisingly very tender...

                            http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/8147...

                        2. re: fourunder
                          Keith Gilabert May 14, 2012 09:02 PM

                          Thanks for the cooking advice. I am going to try it on my tri tip. I always over cook the meat. I let you know how it turns out.

                          Cheers,

                          Keith Gilabert

                  2. re: fourunder
                    u
                    uzmoe Nov 21, 2011 09:11 PM

                    Thanks for the info fourunder. I have a 12 lbs sirloin tip that I need to roast. I need the meat to be medium when done for the according to guest preferences. I will be roasting 2 x 20lbs turkeys as well. I'd really appreciate your advice on how to best time, when to cook the roast so that its ok to serve about 6pm? Also, how should I cook for the tenderest results as far as temps and timing? thanks

                    1. re: uzmoe
                      m
                      MilkAndCookies Nov 21, 2011 09:25 PM

                      I've never roasted anything that big ... but with a small roast (like 3lb) (usually Sirloin Top Roast for me, but they probably cook similarly), what I do is I preheat the oven to 400 degrees F, then prep the roast with any seasoning, etc, and get into its roasting vessel (I use a glass dish). You'll want to use a meat thermometer to tell when it's done, so find about the center and figure out how deep the center is, puncture the center to that depth with a knife (put this in the sink to be washed) and wiggle the meat thermometer into this puncture hole so that it stays in place. Now, I bring the meat in its dish to the oven, turn down the oven to 350 degrees F and pop the meat in quickly (don't leave the oven door open any longer than necessary, and try not to open it up much along the way ... just quick peeks at the thermometer when necessary). With my small roasts take about 15 minutes per pound and come out with a medium rare center. If you're looking for medium, you might want to go a bit longer, but I wouldn't recommend it, as it's easier to put the meat in for a bit longer and/or cut in towards the center and put the center back in if it's not done enough ... you cannot go backwards. The meat thermometer can tell you if it has gotten up to temperature ... The time might be slightly different for a larger roast, but well, 15 min. per lb is the best estimate I've got, since I've only done small roasts. Turkeys ... ummm ... sorry, I'm not really much good with that; that's not my job around Thanksgiving, though you might check the packaging ...

                      1. re: uzmoe
                        f
                        fourunder Nov 21, 2011 10:54 PM

                        uzmoe,

                        sounds like you will have an interesting time ahead of you....

                        Please provide some details to the following questions and I will formulate a game plan as how I would prepare in stages.....Numbers 8, 9 and 11 are very important for your timeline

                        1. size of your home oven.....I'm assuming you cannot fit two turkeys in at one time

                        2. will you have access to two ovens to cook anything simultaneously

                        3. what sides will you prepare that need to go into the oven to reheat

                        4. will the outdoor grill be available to you... also, do you have large sheet pans or roasting pans.... and racks/cooling racks to fit on top of the sheet pan or hotel roasting pan. Last, will you be using a digital probe thermometer or a simple instant read thermometer?

                        5. Do you have some basic butchering skills

                        6. how will you prepare your gravy/stock in advance (or day of)

                        7. confirm you are doing beef and two turkeys for the same meal ......(just making sure)

                        8. do you want the beef & turkey to be hot, warm or room temperature when served.

                        9. is presentation important to you, i.e. a large roast and full intact turkey for display....Also, do you want to have nicely browned and crispy turkey skin

                        10. will you have assistance in preparing or cooking the dinner.

                        11. do you wish to slow roast @ low temperatures...or quicker @ moderate heat? I can give you guidelines for both, but my preference is to slow roast @ 250* or under in most cases, .....but I have had great success for turkey @ 275*....., red meat is best @ 250 and under to achieve maximum yield and tenderness.

                        ** I will tell you this for you to consider. It seems like you will be serving a large party, and if I were in your shoes, I would prepare the meats for ease of slicing and total yield....the way it is done in a catering/commercial kitchen environment....therefore, the most efficient method will require you to make the sirloin and turkey into smaller, more manageable sizes. You can still make attractive pieces for show and you will still be able to carve at the table if preferred.......myself though, we care and plate in the kitchen.

                        1. re: fourunder
                          u
                          uzmoe Nov 22, 2011 07:52 AM

                          fourunder, thanks for taking the time to reply. Ok here we go:

                          1. size of your home oven.....I'm assuming you cannot fit two turkeys in at one time

                          - we have two ovens - one on top of the other. The top one is full size and the bottom is smaller

                          2. will you have access to two ovens to cook anything simultaneously
                          -yep

                          3. what sides will you prepare that need to go into the oven to reheat
                          -creamed corn - needs to be reheated and broiled
                          -glazed yams with maple syrup- I think I will need to actually prepare these on thurs (?) morning, then reheat
                          - green bean casserole- will need to be reheated
                          - brussel sprouts - need to be roasted in oven on thursday
                          -stuffing - will need to be baked on thursday
                          - then ofcourse we have the 2 turkeys (20lbs each) and 1 roast (12lbs)
                          -bisquits
                          -spantopika (appetizer)

                          4. will the outdoor grill be available to you... also, do you have large sheet pans or roasting pans.... and racks/cooling racks to fit on top of the sheet pan or hotel roasting pan. Last, will you be using a digital probe thermometer or a simple instant read thermometer?

                          outdoor use - not possible
                          I have a couple of sheet pans that can go under the roasting pans
                          yes, I have a digital thermometer

                          5. Do you have some basic butchering skills- ummm I think so

                          6. how will you prepare your gravy/stock in advance (or day of) - I will prepare the gravy on wed with the neck and some extra wings that I purchased. Then Ill take the pan drippins at the end and will just add them.

                          7. confirm you are doing beef and two turkeys for the same meal ......(just making sure) - yep, we have a large family of 50 people coming over :)

                          8. do you want the beef & turkey to be hot, warm or room temperature when served
                          - preferably as hot/ warm as possible

                          9. is presentation important to you, i.e. a large roast and full intact turkey for display....Also, do you want to have nicely browned and crispy turkey skin
                          - yep both are important

                          10. will you have assistance in preparing or cooking the dinner.
                          -yes, ill have family all around

                          11. do you wish to slow roast @ low temperatures...or quicker @ moderate heat? I can give you guidelines for both, but my preference is to slow roast @ 250* or under in most cases, .....but I have had great success for turkey @ 275*....., red meat is best @ 250 and under to achieve maximum yield and tenderness.
                          -I'll go with your suggestion on both. I've previously made the turkeys at 350 and they came out great. But I'd have no issues at making them at 275 :)

                          ** I will tell you this for you to consider. It seems like you will be serving a large party, and if I were in your shoes, I would prepare the meats for ease of slicing and total yield....the way it is done in a catering/commercial kitchen environment....therefore, the most efficient method will require you to make the sirloin and turkey into smaller, more manageable sizes. You can still make attractive pieces for show and you will still be able to carve at the table if preferred.......myself though, we care and plate in the kitchen.
                          - I'd love to do that but presentation is really important for the family on tday :)

                          Anxiously awaiting your plan. Thanks once again

                          1. re: uzmoe
                            f
                            fourunder Nov 22, 2011 08:24 AM

                            uzmoe....

                            quick question....can you cook both full size turkeys in the top and bottom ovens simultaneously, or is the bottom oven too small? If the bottom oven is too small to house the full sized bird.....spatchcocking or legs & thighs removed...and, or hotel breast presentation is the only way I see possible for you to go.....unless you consider a rolled turkey....which in my experience is always a crowd favorite.

                            http://www.wolfgangpuck.com/recipes/view/53424/Roasted-Turkey-Two-Ways

                            http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/wolfgang-puck/roasted-turkey-two-ways-recipe/index.html

                            http://www.cookeryonline.com/Xmas/Turkey.html

                            http://www.marthastewart.com/275445/h...

                            I'll reply later today/tonight.

                            1. re: fourunder
                              u
                              uzmoe Nov 22, 2011 08:47 AM

                              I can roast turkeys in both ovens simultaneously :) Both ovens are large enough to do that.

                            2. re: uzmoe
                              f
                              fourunder Nov 22, 2011 03:05 PM

                              The full version is coming, but in a nutshell based on your details provided...

                              1. remove sirloin roast & turkeys 1-2 hours prior to roasting.

                              2. roast sirloin

                              3. roast turkeys

                              4. remove the sides & Sirloin from refrigerator and bring to room temperature (or closer to room temperature) during the time the turkey is 3/4 done cooking

                              5 remove turkeys and rest @ 5PM

                              6. bake Spanakopita and biscuits

                              7. reheat sides

                              8. carve turkey

                              9. reheat Sirloin...bake biscuits

                              10. slice Sirloin

                              Important note: Should your turkey hit its target sooner than you anticipate, simply open the door of the oven for a few minutes and turn the oven down to the lowest warm setting, usually around 140*. You can close the door fully, or leave it cracked open to hold the turkey for 1-2 hours if necessary.

                              http://www.alto-shaam.com/culinary_re...

                              1. re: uzmoe
                                f
                                fourunder Nov 22, 2011 03:28 PM

                                uzmoe,

                                I’m going to start by saying the oven time is manageable in preparing the Sirloin Roast and two Turkeys for a 6PM serving. I would plan on preparing the Sirloin first before placing both turkeys in at the same time after the beef has finished at a temperature of 130-135*, left to hold , and later reheated. The beef holds up well to resting and reheating. You do not mention if the Sirloin Roast will be served at the same time as the turkey, but my thoughts are to reheat the beef while the turkeys are being carved and after the sides have been reheated during the resting period for the turkeys (up to one hour, the birds will still be sufficiently hot/warm.). The Sirloin roast can be placed back in the oven for 20-30 minutes at a moderate temperature of 275-300*, then high heat blasted for 8-10 minutes to put some char and color into the beef. You will not need to rest the beef and can slice 5 minutes after removing from the oven

                                If you are going to roast the Sirloin at its full size of 12 pounds, then my suggestion is for you to do so overnight @ 210-225*, rotating it halfway through the anticipated cooking time based on meat temperature desired and roasting temperature selected. .. Restaurants and meat purveyors that specialize in medium-rare cuts of Top Sirloin slow roast at temperatures of 170-215* for up to 20 hours. The general rule is about 20-25 minutes per pound @ 225 for rare to medium-rare, but I find you usually have a little more leeway without fear of over-cooking. I suspect your 12 pounder will take in the neighborhood of 6-8 hours, depending on the temperature you select….8-10 hours if you are willing to go @ 200-210*. As long as your oven does not flame out, roasting @ 190-210 is fine and I do this frequently overnight, especially with pork shoulders. If your ovens are electric, the better, as they hold more precise temperature at what is set. You can time to remove the Sirloin when you plan to place the turkeys in the oven. ( I would plan on 5-6.5 hours to roast the turkeys @ 250-275*, which means placing the birds in between 10-11 AM).

                                If you are leery of overnight cooking, then I’m going to suggest you consider seaming out the Sirloin into three or four pieces. This is the way I would go myself, as it is far easier and less time consuming. I also like the way the smaller pieces with char present on the plate, as opposed to fragment half slices or one large one. If you roast the smaller pieces on the rack, you can do so in the morning in about two hours on a rack over a sheet pan @ 225-250* in about two hours. You would remove at 125-130* and allow to cool. You could place them in a cool area or into the refrigerator. If the latter is used, make sure you remove 1.5-2.0 hours prior to serving time, where you will reheat like above. 250-300* for about 15-20 minutes, then a high heat blast for 5-8 minutes at 450*, or under the broiler for 2-3 minutes per side…..no resting time needed before slicing. I personally prefer the broiler for smaller seamed out pieces, rather than the high heat blast. Also, for smaller roasts, I like to sear/brown a minute or so, on each side before placing in the oven. The link below has some nice instruction, pictures and a video on how to seam out a whole top butt sirloin into 3 or 4 separate pieces.

                                http://www.chefs-resources.com/Beef-C...

                                For the turkeys, @ 250-275*, you can expect the whole birds to take 4.5-6 hours total cooking time to reach 160+ degrees. I like to roast @ 400* for the first 20 minutes, then drop the temperature down to 225-250 if I have ample time. To cheat 30-45 minutes, I will go at 275. I always cook turkeys on a v-rack or flat rack over shallow pans for air circulation. One trick I use to remove a whole turkey from the v-rack is to double/triple up on butchers twine, making loops under the bird and hang the exposed twine over the ends of the rack. While roasting, the twine gets greased so it wont burn, then when it comes time to remove the bird from the rack, I simply raise the exposed twine up over the turkey and lift to the platter or cutting board. . While I realize the whole bird is important to you for presentation, I do find that it is far easier to spatchcock or roast the legs & thighs removed from the carcass. This brings the total roast time to less than three hours usually. I always plate out of the kitchen, so for the turkey platter, I carve the bird and rearrange the bird to resemble the whole one. Another way to go is with a presentation of the turkey known as a *Hotel Breast*. That’s where part, or all of the back is removed so it can sit up on a platter and still be decorative and easy to carve. The legs are removed and roasted separately, but can be arranged around the breasts on the platter to still resemble a whole bird. I mention this only for future reference should you decide to give it a try one day. I guarantee you and your family will still love the presentation and you will love the time you have saved. Please note that with low temperature roasting you will not normally get a lot of pan juices in the bottom of the roasting pan….the moisture stays in the meat, but you should get an ample amount of juices in the cavity of the turkeys to add to your gravy. To remove the juices, tilt the birds over and the juices will pour out. You can use a strainer if you wish.

                                For the record, I usually do two turkeys as well, but I always remove the legs and thighs and roast separately from two turkey breast (both sides) with the breast bone cracked and rib cage removed so the meat can lay flat. I find this reduces the overall time an hour and it makes it very easy to separate each side and make uniform slicing of the white meat.

                                Give this a read and if you need any clarification I’ll check back in later.

                                1. re: fourunder
                                  u
                                  uzmoe Nov 22, 2011 05:07 PM

                                  Thanks fourunder, I'll let you know how it goes :)

                                  1. re: uzmoe
                                    f
                                    fourunder Nov 29, 2011 02:33 PM

                                    Are we still friends.....

                                    :0)

                                    1. re: fourunder
                                      u
                                      uzmoe Nov 29, 2011 03:25 PM

                                      lol, we are. Sorry for the delay. So the dinner was perfect. We put the roast in at 9pm the night before at 200*. It was stuck at 141* till like 9am the next morning. So I raised the temp to 215* and it still didnt go anywhere. So I took it out at 10:30, wrapped it up in foil and tucked it away till reheating around 5pm. The turkeys went in and turned out perfect but the when we opened the roast, it the outside was hard and dry :( But the inside was flavorful and tender. I think the time it sat out of the oven was too long. Anyways, the dinner was a success :) Thanks for all your help.

                            3. re: uzmoe
                              f
                              fourunder Nov 22, 2011 07:22 AM

                              uzmoe....

                              Just in case you have not decided on how to roast your beef, here are two links that show cooking @ around 350* and the results....which I would deem as over-cooked and uneven results. While I'm sure they are both tasty, I would say they are not as tender as as opposed to low temperature roasted meats...brown meat to me is far more chewy, even if sliced thin, but I will say you could also roast your meats to medium or medium-well temperature with the slow roast approach....it just needs more time in the oven(an additional hour or more, depending
                              on the size).

                              http://www.food.com/recipe/sirloin-tip-roast-80647

                              http://www.bamaque.com/webstat/Whole%20Top%20Sirloin%20Butt.htm

                              Now here are two threads that I participated with pictures from my actual experiences. You will see how the meat is cooked for more evenly throughout without any brown.grey rings.

                              http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/814720#6913704

                              http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/7572...

                            4. re: fourunder
                              f
                              FriendOfTheDevil Jan 3, 2012 11:18 AM

                              Fourunder,
                              I know this is three years old. I used it this past week on a Sirloin tip roast..

                              GREAT INFO! Thanks!

                              FOTD

                              1. re: FriendOfTheDevil
                                f
                                fourunder Jan 3, 2012 12:18 PM

                                FOTD,

                                Thanks for the kind words and always happy to hear success stories and people embracing the low and slow approach.

                                I made many comments on different cuts of meat, including sirloin, but I particularly like to slow roast chuck roast when it goes on sale for under $2.50...which is usually once a month in my area. although the thread below is for chuck, the basic method is the same for any beef......check it out and notice the different results in pictures.

                                http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/757268

                                http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/8147...

                                1. re: fourunder
                                  f
                                  FriendOfTheDevil Jan 3, 2012 01:36 PM

                                  Thanks for the links! One question. I noticed my roast seemed VERY red in color on the inside, although the temp was actually 10 degrees higher when I took it out than I wanted. I believe I took it out at 140 and meant to take it out at 125 or 130. After the rest, everything was wonderful, nothing leaching out, but very Red in color in an *even* sort of way. Normally I would have high roasted it and finished it low so there would be more of a gradiated look.
                                  Does the meat tend to come out more red in your opinion in color?

                                  It did not taste underdone. Everyone loved it.

                                  Just curious.

                                  FOTD

                                  1. re: FriendOfTheDevil
                                    f
                                    fourunder Jan 3, 2012 01:55 PM

                                    The gradiated look is more a result of higher heat roasting temperatures, i.e., the outer surface is quite higher than the inner center of the roast. With lower temperature roasting, the temperature develops slowly so there is not grey outer ring. The lower temperature give a dark outside crust, but underneath and inside, the roast should be one color. blue/purple ish for rare, red for medium -rare and more pinkish for medium.

                                    If you think about the consistent color of a quality roast beef product used for cold cuts, the slow roast is achieved by slow roasting at 170-190*. When I roast, I shoot for a bright pink myself.

                                    http://mmm-yoso.typepad.com/mmmyoso/images/bullyseast07.JPG

                                    http://food.sndimg.com/img/recipes/24...

                                    With 200-225* temperature, it's easy to get the first bright pink color.

                                    With 300-350* temperature, you get the gray outer ring.

                                    It that what you are describing?

                                    1. re: fourunder
                                      f
                                      FriendOfTheDevil Jan 3, 2012 03:20 PM

                                      Even Redder. What do you roast to?

                                      FOTD

                                      1. re: FriendOfTheDevil
                                        f
                                        fourunder Jan 3, 2012 03:35 PM

                                        Depending on the cut of meat....but Sirloin or Prime Rib roasts I shoot for 118-122 depending on shape and size, for the first resting period and carryover cooking, which I expect to be another 5-7 degrees.. I remove from the oven and cover with a large stainless steel mixing bowl and bath towel for one hour. I return to the oven for what I call warming phase at 250* for 20-30 minutes. This is not a second cooking. I remove again, uncovered and increase the oven to 500* for 5 minutes and return the roast for 8-12 minutes, again depending on size and shape, for the final heat blast to give it some color and char. No second rest, but only the approximate time of about 5 minutes to get the plates or serving platter ready and I slice away....no bleeding of any juices. i I'm not anal about precise temperatures, but I suspect my finished target temperature to be anywhere from 128- 133*...hopefully, not above 135*.

                                        http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/466614

                                        http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/8249...

                                        1. re: fourunder
                                          f
                                          FriendOfTheDevil Jan 3, 2012 03:58 PM

                                          Thanks for all the info Fourunder. Appreciate it!

                                          1. re: fourunder
                                            c
                                            Carolinetwo Jan 15, 2012 09:35 PM

                                            Jacking the thread! Newbie here - but I have a question for you fourunder - I have an 8 lb. sirloin tip roast, whole cap off. I'm doing a dry rub but I would love to do the low and slow cooking. I would like to keep the roast whole if possible, so I'm guessing I would be in the eight hour range at a temp of 200 - 210? If I am wrong, please, please, please correct me! I'll be roasting in a few days, so any other prep tops would be great. Thanks much! (Yes, I have read through most of the responses as well)

                                            1. re: Carolinetwo
                                              f
                                              fourunder Jan 16, 2012 04:23 AM

                                              C2,

                                              My suggestion is if you are willing to go 8 hours, then plan for 11-12 hours total time to be safe, but expect it to be done in the 9-10 hour range....after allowing the roast to warm up at least two hours before placing in the oven (My kitchen is in the basement and rarely goes above 60*, so I would allow it to warm for 4 hours or take it out the night before I retire for the evening.

                                              I've tried all the temps from 170 and above in my home oven...for me personally, I have settled on the 215-225* setting for most of my slow roasted beef as a matter of convenience and predictability.....however you most certainly can expect great results with the lower 200*, and longer roasting time. In fact, most of the businesses known for roasting Top Butt Sirloin and Tri-Tip or Sirloin Tip Roast use 190* to make theirs fork tender and butter like when slicing.

                                              The whole concept of the low temperature is it mimics the dry aging process, concentrates flavor and breaks down the meat naturally. The reason why I suggest you allow for the longer (12 hours), is simply once it's done, it's easier to hold the roast, rather than turn up the heat to rush the roast to serve. My experience is also that any roast, whether Prime Rib Roast, Strip Loin Roast or even Chuck Roast.....benefits from a one hour resting period to allow for carry over heat increase and juice redistribution. Ultimately, the meat is more tender and has less chew than allowing meat to rest for 30 minutes or less. My results have always been better taking the extra 30 minutes (1 hour), using a warm-up phase @ 250* for 20-30 minutes, then the high heat blast for an additional 10-12 minutes.

                                              *** Please note, once you reach your target temperature, you can hold the roast in your oven at 140* for quite some time. It's not unusual for commercial kitchens to hold roasts for up 10 hours until it is served. They put the meat in the Alto Shaam ovens the night before the close. When they come in the next day the meat is done. Commercial ovens like the Alto Shaam are known as, Cook and Hold Ovens, which have the ability to shut off the oven and hold at the predetermined temperature for 200+ and hold at 140*....where it may not be used until lunch or even dinner service.

                                              Based on the experience of others when using the 200* method...a few notable hounds use 30 minutes per pound as their reference point.....however, I read far more posts that suggest 50 minutes per pound is more accurate. I tend to believe the latter is more appropriate and my past experiences would be more in line with the longer time.

                                              Using the most recent experience of (uzmoe) above, their experience for a 12 pound roast was it took 12 hours to reach 141*, or the high end of medium-rare and the low end of medium.

                                              You do not mention your target temperature you are aiming for......Please come back with some more details and how you plan to serve the roast, i.e., are you planning this for a family dinner roast or for great roast beef sandwiches?... For the latter, please note you will not have any juice resulting from low temperature roasting. If you are looking to make a jus, then I would suggest you purchase and include some beef shanks with a little water in the pan...or made separately.

                                              I'll be on and off the computer all day, so if you come back with more details, I'll do my best to address them today....or if possible on the day of your roasting.

                                              Hopefully, others will join in and give you their suggestions and past experiences as well.

                                              Regards

                                              1. re: fourunder
                                                c
                                                Carolinetwo Jan 16, 2012 05:36 AM

                                                Thanks fourunder for the great response. The roast is planned for a family dinner and I would aim for a nice medium, leaning perhaps a bit to the medium rare side, 138-140 I'm thinking?? And I would like to serve immediately after the resting period, so no reheating time - I would have everything else prepared while the roast rests. Also I am wondering (I'm so new to this so please excuse my simplicity) do I set the roast directly on a baking pan, on a rack, wrapped in any way, or just open to the oven? And is it preferable to let the roast set in the refrigerator unwrapped for 24 hours before roasting (I will let it come up to room temp before roasting), for longer than 24 hours, or is that not necessary at all?

                                                1. re: Carolinetwo
                                                  f
                                                  fourunder Jan 16, 2012 08:55 PM

                                                  C2,

                                                  Based on the details you have provided thus far....

                                                  * Do not wrap in foil or cover with any top or vessel

                                                  * Sear or brown in a 450* oven for the first 15-30 minutes

                                                  * Drop down to 200 for approximately 7-8 to reach your target of 140ish after the first browning phase above

                                                  * I would give a final heat blast at about 135-138 for 10 minutes to develop some char if necessary....or go directly to 140 ish if the roast had a nice developed color already.

                                                  * Rest for 20 minutes minimum

                                                  * Ready to slice.

                                                  * Slices.....I would recommend no thicker than 1/4 inch slices for this cut.

                                                  Some points to consider...

                                                  Additional notes:

                                                  You can season 24-48 hours in advance. Personally, I do not believe the meat can fully absorb the seasonings to the center, but it can definitely aid in forming the outer crust. The 24 hours before placing the roast into the oven, myself, I would leave it uncovered/unwrapped in the refrigerator.

                                                  There are variables such as your oven,, roast size & shape and etc that will factor into the final results. An oven thermometer should cover these points for progress.

                                                  I always use a rack of some kind to aid in air circulation...also, when dry roasting, I do not like the meat to sit in any liquid whatsoever....in effect to avoid steaming.

                                                  I would flip the roast on the rack at least once, or in quarter turns at appropriate intervals in line with the duration of the roasting time.i.e. 4 hours or every 2 hours.

                                                  I would also rotate the roast pan, i.e. front of roast, turned at halfway point so the back is turned to the front of the oven.

                                                  The roast pan should have a lip no higher than 2 inches (shallow). With low temperature roasting, I usually use a simple sheet pan with a rolled lip (1 inch).

                                                  ******Should the roast finish quicker than expected....just drop[ the oven down to 140* to hold.

                                                  1. re: fourunder
                                                    c
                                                    Carolinetwo Jan 17, 2012 07:47 AM

                                                    I think I've got it. I just want to let you know that I really appreciate all the help you've given me. For someone who is inexperienced at this type of thing, it means the world to have someone to go to for questions. You've been very thorough, kind, and considerate - thank you again.

                                                    I will not be roasting for a couple or so days yet, but I will report back how things turned out. Have a wonderful day!

                                                    1. re: fourunder
                                                      t
                                                      tonhin Apr 26, 2012 07:06 AM

                                                      Hi fourunder and hello everyone else,

                                                      I'm new to this forum, but not a newbie at cooking. I must admit, that I haven't made all that many roasts, and want to attempt making a sirloin tip on Saturday. I have been reading all your tips for hours, and more or less know how I am going to go about making the perfect roast (or better said, hoping to). The only unclarity left, is whether the temperature of 225* given is for normal mode or convection. Thanks for the help!

                                                      1. re: tonhin
                                                        f
                                                        fourunder Apr 26, 2012 08:26 AM

                                                        Welcome to the board...

                                                        You can use the convection feature to roast, but my experience is it cooks the meat faster .....as such, I personally do not recommend you do so, as it defeats the purpose of low and slow roasting, which is to mimic the dry aging process and naturally break down the meat over a longer period of time. Ultimately, the difference in tenderness is more noticeable without using the convection feature. Depending on the size of your roast, you're probably talking about saving 30-60 minutes at most if you decide to use the fan.

                                                        1. re: fourunder
                                                          t
                                                          tonhin Apr 26, 2012 10:45 AM

                                                          Thanks fourunder! That's more or less what I'd thought. I'll stick to the "normal" mode. I will report, how the roast comes out. At the moment I'm dry aging it in the fridge, so don't want to take it out to weigh. On Saturday I will then cut off the dry parts, weigh and work according to all the valuable tips I got here. Thanks again!

                                                        2. re: tonhin
                                                          c
                                                          Carolinetwo Apr 26, 2012 08:30 AM

                                                          Welcome tonhin - forum newbie myself! :D Just wanted to pop in and say that my attempt at the roast was a disaster. :( Not to be discouraged though! I will try again! And I think these directions are for a regular oven - not convection. I am definitely not an expert by any means, but it would seem to me that convections would cook faster. Fourunder would absolutely be a better one to answer how to convert the cooking time/temp. Thank you again fourunder - I will be trying it again. I think I will get an internal digital meat thermometer first though. :)

                                                          1. re: Carolinetwo
                                                            f
                                                            fourunder Apr 26, 2012 08:33 AM

                                                            Sorry to hear....what happened?

                                                            1. re: Carolinetwo
                                                              t
                                                              tonhin Apr 26, 2012 10:49 AM

                                                              Thanks for the warm welcome! Sorry to hear about the botch up. Fourunder luckily chirped in, and saved my bacon. I will not use the convection mode, and roast at 225* (110°C). My oven luckily has a built in thermometer, so I can even set the desired temperature. Hope it helps:)

                                                              1. re: tonhin
                                                                c
                                                                Carolinetwo Apr 26, 2012 02:47 PM

                                                                I roasted for about 20 minutes under the time I calculated and pulled the roast out, covered it with foil and let it set for about 15 minutes. When I cut into it it was completely overdone - I was shooting for medium (on the rare-ish side) but it was completely cooked through and a bit tough. I have since gotten a second oven thermometer (not a meat one) and checked the temp of the oven, but it was good. I think I just need to maybe lower the temp and have a meat thermometer that I can just leave in there. I've never had good luck with roasts - I think I'm cursed ;D But I will try again for sure. I'm not giving up yet!
                                                                It wasn't a total loss though - I did end up slicing it super super thin and warming in au jus for sandwiches so all was not lost. :D

                                                                1. re: Carolinetwo
                                                                  f
                                                                  fourunder Apr 27, 2012 09:05 AM

                                                                  C2,

                                                                  I find this dis heartening to hear, but I'm curious to know if you recall the time and temperature you roasted at? Low and slow is very forgiving...and usually, even if you leave it in the oven for more than an hour over your anticipated time(for larger roasts), it will not raise too high in temperature, i.e., more than 10 degrees.

                                                                  When it comes to weight, roasting time can be very deceiving. Flatter cuts roast faster than Round (shape) roasts..

                                                                  1. re: fourunder
                                                                    c
                                                                    Carolinetwo Apr 28, 2012 09:37 AM

                                                                    I do not recall exactly what the times/temps were, but I remember trying to calculate the "low and slow" method. The roast was rather round in shape, almost the size of a basketball really. I was a little uncomfortable with the size of it, so perhaps that was part of the issue, but seeing as how restaurants roast rather large cuts it shouldn't have been too far off the mark. I can't say for sure, but I'm thinking the temp was somewhere right around the 200 range? As for time I can't say at all, I just know I had it figured and then went with it.

                                                                    Like I said, I will try again, but most likely with a much smaller cut. I think I just bit off more than I could chew that time. No pun intended. :D

                                                                    1. re: Carolinetwo
                                                                      f
                                                                      fourunder Apr 28, 2012 10:02 AM

                                                                      Thanks for the details......your experience is the biggest reason why I always recommend seaming out the Whole Top But. The smaller pieces are more manageable and easier to slice.....much better plate presentation as well.

                                                                      1. re: fourunder
                                                                        c
                                                                        Carolinetwo Apr 28, 2012 09:23 PM

                                                                        I do agree. And I just want to say thank you again - you were a huge help and I really appreciate that! I'll come back and let you know how the next venture goes. :)

                                                                2. re: tonhin
                                                                  c
                                                                  Carolinetwo Apr 28, 2012 09:24 PM

                                                                  Hope it turns out fantastic tonhin! Good luck! :D

                                                                  1. re: Carolinetwo
                                                                    t
                                                                    tonhin Apr 29, 2012 12:09 AM

                                                                    Okay, yesterday was the big night. Unfortunately the roast didn't quite turn out as expected.It was in the oven for around 2 hours at 225*. I had a bit of bad luck, as I either forgot to set the oven temperatures after having set in the desired temperature, or my oven was playing bug*gers with me. That means that the first 25 mins the roast was getting cooked at 370*. After the first turn of roasting, I let it sit for over an hour, popped it back in at 300° and then full blast at the end. It was juicy, and quite tender, but I was really surprised at the amount of blood that still ran out after cutting. So, definitely room for improvement at my end!

                                                                    1. re: tonhin
                                                                      f
                                                                      fourunder Apr 29, 2012 09:05 AM

                                                                      I had a similar mistake yesterday, due to a senior moment...but with slightly different results. I believe the unwanted bleeding is a result of your higher warming temperature of 300*. You can see my results in the pictures below. The following comments are copied from my post on another thread I started on roasting Chuck Roast @ 220*.

                                                                      http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/7572...

                                                                      Earlier this week I stopped by the local ShopRite store and they had an in store special on Certified Angus Beef Chuck Roast, on sale for $3.21/lb. I spotted a nice looking piece weighing approximately 2.5 pounds....so I picked it up. From this thread, you can tell I find this beef cut a very good choice for an inexpensive roast beef....especially when on sale for around 3 bucks per pound.....

                                                                      So yesterday, I was in a cooking mood, so i decided to make the roast, along with my Sunday Gravy, which I started on first. After getting the vegetables and tomatoes into the pot, I finished browning the meats and placed them into the vessel as well. Now it was time for me to turn my attention to the Chuck Roast......unfortunately, during the process, I had my senior moment, and instead of cooking this low and slow at 225*, I ended up roasting it at 450* for about 25 minutes. My mistake was that I placed the meat into a cold oven and turned the heat up to 450*....expecting to turn it down to 225* after 10 minutes...but I forgot about it. Between stirring the pot of sauce and checking new posts on chowhound....I simply forgot about it....Rookie Mistake.

                                                                      However all was not lost and something was learned. First and foremost, do not forget about beef in the oven......and looks can be deceiving. Luckily for me, I did have a digital temperature probe set in the roast for 135*, a little higher than I normally set for(125). When I realized the meat was in the oven, it had been for 25+ minutes and the internal temperature probe registered 134*.. I quickly opened the oven door and removed the roast....shutting off the oven completely to allow all the heat to escape. After 15 minutes, I replaced the roast back into the oven to hold it for an additional 90 minutes, uncovered, but with the door closed. At this time, the roast registered 138. After the 90 minutes, the roast was registering 84*. At this point. I started what I call the *warm up phase*, in preparation for serving. I turned the oven on to 250* for 30 minutes until the roast's internal temperature read 95*, then I increased the temperature to 450* for 8 minutes and pulled the roast from the oven and transferred to the cutting board. There was no second resting period, but only the time needed to take a few pictures before I made the first slice. Below, you can see pictures of the finished roast, the first few slices and the meat on the plate. You can clearly see the meat is medium-rare / medium with minimal bleeding.

                                                                      In the end, the meat still looked great and was pretty good.....but it was definitely not as tender as with the low and slow roasting method.

                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                       
                                                                      1. re: fourunder
                                                                        f
                                                                        fourunder Apr 29, 2012 09:08 AM

                                                                        More pictures....the cutting board and finished plate.

                                                                         
                                                                         
                                                                        1. re: fourunder
                                                                          c
                                                                          Carolinetwo Apr 29, 2012 11:21 AM

                                                                          Thank you for posting pics fourunder - this is what I am aiming for as far as done-ness, now if I can just get the technique right to get it there.

                                                                        2. re: fourunder
                                                                          t
                                                                          tonhin Apr 29, 2012 12:38 PM

                                                                          I wish my roast had turned out like yours. I've just eaten, but my mouth is watering - yummy. Was it wrong to roast at 300* the second time round? You suggested it earlier on in this thread, but maybe it was because of the cut or the size?

                                                                          1. re: tonhin
                                                                            f
                                                                            fourunder Apr 29, 2012 08:15 PM

                                                                            t.

                                                                            Was it wrong to roast at 300* the second time round? You suggested it earlier on in this thread, but maybe it was because of the cut or the size
                                                                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                                                            In general, without allowances for specific circumstances, I recommend and use 250* for the warm up phase and 450* for the blast exclusively myself. I do not see the post where you cite 300* for reference, but my experience is the the higher heat releases the juices from the meat, thus my preference for the lower 225* If I made a mistake by recommending 300*, I apologize....as it may have been a typo.

                                                                            There are many factors to consider to achieve the finished desired result. I believe size, shape and weight are most important to consider....but some other points to note, but not limited to, are the calibration of the oven, time of year and humidity outside. All will factor into the timing of the finished temperature.

                                                                            Regardless of cut of beef, I find once you hit the target temperature ....it's best to rest the meat a minimum of an hour......even longer if possible. For any future roasts, my minimum rest will be at least 90 minutes, but my plans will call for 2 hours plus. That's what I've found to be the process to minimize or eliminate any bleeding on the cutting board or plate.

                                                                            1. re: fourunder
                                                                              t
                                                                              tonhin Apr 29, 2012 11:53 PM

                                                                              I’m going to start by saying the oven time is manageable in preparing the Sirloin Roast and two Turkeys for a 6PM serving. I would plan on preparing the Sirloin first before placing both turkeys in at the same time after the beef has finished at a temperature of 130-135*, left to hold , and later reheated. The beef holds up well to resting and reheating. You do not mention if the Sirloin Roast will be served at the same time as the turkey, but my thoughts are to reheat the beef while the turkeys are being carved and after the sides have been reheated during the resting period for the turkeys (up to one hour, the birds will still be sufficiently hot/warm.). The Sirloin roast can be placed back in the oven for 20-30 minutes at a moderate temperature of 275-300*, then high heat blasted for 8-10 minutes to put some char and color into the beef. You will not need to rest the beef and can slice 5 minutes after removing from the oven
                                                                              _____________________________________________________________

                                                                              So, just to recap - roast at 225* till I think approx. 120* is reached. Remove, let it rest for 1 hour, put back in, roast again at 225* and then blast. Or is it better, to not let it rest and then "reheat", but to roast in one go? As I wrote to Carolinetwo, I don't make roasts that often, so I want to make notes to which I can refer when I make my next roast.

                                                                              1. re: tonhin
                                                                                f
                                                                                fourunder Apr 30, 2012 12:40 AM

                                                                                Okay, seeing the original post and comments, that was an instance where there were some unusual circumstances that needed to be addressed.....a large preparation with timing issues, combined with the fact that uzmoe wanted hot beef and medium temperature.....thus the reasons for my suggestions for a higher warming temperature of 275-300. Those were not typos.

                                                                                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                                                                To recap: For Medium-Rare temperature results without, or minimal bleeding.

                                                                                1. Take the seasoned roast out of the refrigerator 2-4 hours prior to placing in the oven.

                                                                                2. Pre heat the oven for 20-30 minutes, I start a cold oven at 450*

                                                                                3. Sear on the stove....or place into the oven @ 450* for 10-15 minutes...the larger the roast, the longer the initial browning phase.

                                                                                4. Drop the oven down to 225* and roast until the meat temperature hits 120-125*. Carry over temperature will only rise/increase about 5* during the resting period when roasting at 225*

                                                                                5. Rest for a minimum of 60 minutes, but I rest for 2 hours if possible. Outside the oven, tent the roast with foil or cover with a large bowl or other vessel and a large bath towel or blanket for insulation. If you leave in the oven, reduce the temperature to the lowest warm setting, which for most ovens is 140* (uncovered or unwrapped).

                                                                                6. Warming phase for 20-30 minutes at 250*

                                                                                7. High heat blast for 8-15 minutes @ 450*.

                                                                                *** low end numbers for small roasts, higher end for larger roasts on temperatures cited.

                                                                                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                                                                Or is it better, to not let it rest and then "reheat", but to roast in one go?

                                                                                I do not like to roast in one go....

                                                                                You must rest the roast for a minimum of15-20 minutes before slicing, whichever temperature you select for roasting or broiling(steaks)......but I believe the meat is best when rested for two hours before the *warming phase* for roasts. I do not like to use the words reheat or second roast, due to the fact the meat is not cooking a second time.....just to avoid any confusion in meaning, Resting allows the meat fibers to relax and absorb the juices.......if you sliced immediately, all the juices would end up on the cutting board or serving dish.....

                                                                                1. re: fourunder
                                                                                  t
                                                                                  tonhin Apr 30, 2012 01:53 AM

                                                                                  Thanks fourunder, that's great!! I will print out your instructions for my next attempt.

                                                                                  1. re: tonhin
                                                                                    f
                                                                                    fourunder Apr 30, 2012 09:34 AM

                                                                                    C2 and t,

                                                                                    Not to be full of myself ....but curiosity always gets the best of me when queries are posted and sometimes mishaps happen. Given that you do not roast that often, I believe I have some time to accomplish this....but I will try in the near future (give me at least a month) to purchase a small Whole Top Butt Sirloin......Hopefully it will have three seams of muscle and I will butcher one out, sear in a pan. The larger two seams, I will brown in the oven first. both will then roasted low and slow. I'll provide the actual details and process at that time and take some pictures.. the process will be much of the same I have already outlined.

                                                                                    Until then.....

                                                                                    1. re: fourunder
                                                                                      t
                                                                                      tonhin Apr 30, 2012 10:04 AM

                                                                                      That's really sweet of you, thanks fourunder! Can the recap you gave me earlier be used for every beef roast? As I live in Germany, we don't get that many different cuts of US beef, which is the meat I prefer.

                                                                                      1. re: tonhin
                                                                                        f
                                                                                        fourunder Apr 30, 2012 10:37 AM

                                                                                        In a word, yes......low and slow is a method and process. It can be achieved through dry heat roasting or sous-vide cooking. I have zero experience with the latter., but much with the former. I'm not familiar with the beef cut names in Europe, or specifically Germany......but any type of beef used for *Roast Beef* benefits from the low and slow approach. If you have patience and the time....the longer you take, the more tender you can make the beef. I've experimented with dry heat roasting with temperatures ranging from 170-250*F.....I have found that 215-225* is best for my needs of time management, convenience and final results.....whether roasting beef or pork. Small turkeys 12-14 lbs, I use 275*....larger turkeys, 16+ pounds, I roast at 225* if you were to roast a larger piece of beef for a holiday party (14+ pounds), then my suggestion would be to roast at a lower temperature of 170-190 for however long it takes, by placing in the oven the night before and roasting into the next day (12+ hours).

                                                                                        I generally like my meat Medium-Rare these days, so I purchase cuts of beef that can be flavorful and tender at this temperature, like these I mentioned above:

                                                                                        Hanger Steak
                                                                                        Tri-Tip, Flap, or Newport Roast
                                                                                        Chuck Roast , Blade/Underblade. Top Blade/Flat Iron
                                                                                        Top Butt Sirloin

                                                                                        Personally, I do not find cuts known around the USA below to be good choices for anything other than Machine Thin-Sliced Roast Beef...for sandwiches:

                                                                                        Shoulder
                                                                                        Shoulder Clod
                                                                                        Top Round
                                                                                        Bottom Round
                                                                                        Rump Roast
                                                                                        Eye Round

                                                                                        If you were to use these cuts above for dinner plates , you certainly could use the low and slow method, but I would recommend you roast to a higher end temperature of medium-rare or medium (140).. With regards to the last choice of Eye Round, many here on this site like to reference the Cooks Illustrated method and slow roast. If you research that, the principles are the same. I have no problems with the method or process, my disagreement with the recommendation has to do with the cut of beef itself....it just does not suit my tastes. My point of view is this....using the benchmark of $3.00USD, the highest price I would pay or have access to purchase Eye Round.....there are better choices to spend my dollars and fill my belly......nothing more.

                                                                                        1. re: fourunder
                                                                                          c
                                                                                          Carolinetwo Apr 30, 2012 05:25 PM

                                                                                          Great info fourunder - the list above is fantastic as I am not overly familiar with cuts of meat and usually have to do some investigating to figure out exactly what I've got.

                                                                                          1. re: fourunder
                                                                                            t
                                                                                            tonhin May 1, 2012 06:57 AM

                                                                                            Thanks again fourunder! I believe the cut I used was beef knuckle or sirloin tip as it is apparently also called.

                                                                                            1. re: tonhin
                                                                                              f
                                                                                              fourunder May 1, 2012 08:44 AM

                                                                                              Here in the States, it's always confusing how meat is labeled depending on what region of the country you reside in. One cut of beef that automatically stirs debate is the Shoulder cut known here in the Northeast as *London Broil*....almost immediately, many will say London Broil is a method, not a cut of beef. To me it's a little confusing with Beef Knuckles and Sirloin Tip as well......which are Round cuts in my mind, not Sirloin.

                                                                                              While the Knuckle can be roasted, it is also used for braising and stew meat as well. The cut of beef is also popular for smoking. roasted, the whole Knuckle is often used for the Chicago Italian Beef Sandwiches.

                                                                                              Here are a few links ....two, explaining Sirloin Tip/Beef Knuckle, and the other a chart to show you the Knuckle and where it comes from on the carcass hind-quarter.

                                                                                              http://www.deltam.net/images/beef/beef-parts.jpg

                                                                                              http://www.ehow.com/info_8464647_cut-beef-peeled-knuckle.html

                                                                                              http://www.ehow.com/info_8378183_uses...

                                                                                              1. re: fourunder
                                                                                                t
                                                                                                tonhin May 1, 2012 09:40 AM

                                                                                                Thanks:) I'll check out the links now.

                                                                          2. re: tonhin
                                                                            c
                                                                            Carolinetwo Apr 29, 2012 11:19 AM

                                                                            It's definitely a learning process isn't it tonhin? Glad you were able to at least get a good dinner out of the experience, though. :)

                                                                            1. re: Carolinetwo
                                                                              t
                                                                              tonhin Apr 29, 2012 12:40 PM

                                                                              Sure is, Caronlientwo:) Unfortunately I don't make roasts that often, so if I don't write myself precise instructions, I'll have forgotten the next time round.

                                                                              1. re: tonhin
                                                                                a
                                                                                ArtH May 11, 2012 04:26 PM

                                                                                C2 and T,

                                                                                You need to get a meat probe and keep and eye on the internal temperature. Get one that you stick in the meat and has a cable that comes out the oven door and you can see the temperature and set a temperature limit and it alarms.

                                                                                Another good thing is that you can see how much the meat temperature climbs even when removed from the oven. It lets you "see" what is happening. It makes is easier to replicate recipes the first or perhaps the second time. 20 bucks and you won't have to guess anymore.

                                                                                Fourunder keeps mentioning temperature targets so he obviously is measuring the temperature of the meat. However his "senior moment" makes me think he doesn't continuously measure the temp but he checks it at certain intervals. I can't be sure.

                                                                                But he (Fourunder) is slowly convincing me to try chuck roast in an oven uncovered at low oven temps. I am trying to make roast beef sandwiches that is reheated in the juice prior to serving on a bun.

                                                                                For some unknown reason I continue to try and use eye round roast. If I exaggerate a lot, my latest results are almost decent. I did the CI method and it wasn't tender enough. Please note that I let the roast cool and then refrigerated over night for thin slicing and reheated in the juice. It sucked to me.

                                                                                I crocked potted it for 10 hours on low (the old method) and it was better, but I couldn't mask the intrinsic dryness even when it warmed in the juice for 5 minutes. It is decent if you like really dry meat.

                                                                                FYI, I am not a fan of red or pink meat so that might be my problem.

                                                                                I would appreciate any suggestions from anyone.

                                                                                On Tuesday my Wagner Ware Magnelite Sidney O 4265-P will be here and I will pot roast something covered in the oven at 175 degF for as long as it takes. The pressure cooker comes next (although I have my doubts). It seems to go against the low and slow method that I think is the key to tenderness.

                                                                                1. re: ArtH
                                                                                  f
                                                                                  fourunder May 11, 2012 04:44 PM

                                                                                  Fourunder keeps mentioning temperature targets so he obviously is measuring the temperature of the meat. However his "senior moment" makes me think he doesn't continuously measure the temp but he checks it at certain intervals. I can't be sure.
                                                                                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                                                                  There was a digital probe thermometer inserted at the time of my senior moment.....but truth be told, I've cooked many without one and just used the finger press test.

                                                                                  1. re: ArtH
                                                                                    f
                                                                                    fourunder May 11, 2012 05:08 PM

                                                                                    A.

                                                                                    If you have not seen these threads on Chuck Roast.....they may help you decide. Some smaller 2-3 pounders ...and a very nice 12 pounder.

                                                                                    http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/757268

                                                                                    http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/8147...

                                                                                    1. re: fourunder
                                                                                      a
                                                                                      ArtH May 12, 2012 11:53 PM

                                                                                      Fourunder,

                                                                                      I read all your posts. I am trying to make the best roast beef sandwich and I have wasted many hours searching. Your name comes up all the time. You are an expert. So I take what you say as true.

                                                                                      My Dad was an engineer and I am too. It is a curse. But it is a blessing too. I tend to take notes and I measure everything. I use two probes in a hunk of beef, and I confirm it with the Thermopen.

                                                                                      I love ATK and all their derivatives. I like it when Jack tricks Chris into picking the wrong one.

                                                                                      I get on kicks trying to figure out how to make the best "blank" at home.

                                                                                      I think you do too.

                                                                                      1. re: ArtH
                                                                                        f
                                                                                        fourunder May 13, 2012 07:38 AM

                                                                                        Not to be confused with the Sirloin Tip Roast, which is also known as a Knuckle, Steamship or Ball Joint...

                                                                                        For myself, in choosing the best cut of beef for Roast Beef Sandwiches, I would select a Whole Top Butt Sirloin, also known as *The Poor Man's Prime Rib Roast*. Whether machine or hand sliced, I find this to be the most tender for sandwiches. and Sliced Steaks. Here in my area, there's a couple of places that feature the cut for both as one of their house signature items. Please note, I would also suggest you seam out the muscles first before roasting. It makes it easier to roast and more manageable for slicing. i also prefer the smaller width slices for presentation....as opposed to a large slice.

                                                                                        I have access to Wholesale Meat and can pretty much purchase everything for half of what the public has to pay. When I contribute my thoughts here, I try to place myself in the same shoes everyone else has, but apply my knowledge and experience in what's available on the cheap (on sale) , and how to prepare it as it would be done in a commercial environment, i.e., the best finished product and with the highest yield.

                                                                                        My preference for the Chuck Roast lately ...is that I find it a nice choice for beefy flavor and very good value when reasonably priced for $3 and under. Top Butt Sirloin is $4 plus wholesale and rarely under $5 when on sale, more likely to be priced around $7 in most supermarkets. While the chuck roast could be used for roast beef sandwiches....there will be a little chew with some of the muscles, especially when hand sliced. I think it's better suited as for sliced steak/roast beef.

                                                                                        Based on the last few prominent roasts I featured for the past holidays...I would suggest the following simple guidelines: I prefer the slow and slow approach myself, but regardless of what heat you ultimately select, I really believe the key to great meat is a longer resting period after it hits its target temperature. I have tested this thought with Prime Rib, Leg of Lamb ...and most recently a Boston Butt Pork Roast, resting for 2 hours before slicing. All three were fork tender and butter soft. The links below will show the results of the PR and LoL, the BB I will post the details shortly, but meanwhile, I'll post the pictures. You can see that after a two hour holding time in a 140* oven, uncovered, the meat is still very moist without any bleeding from the finished temperature of 160* roasted at 200* for 8.5 hours.

                                                                                        http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/824994#7086905

                                                                                        http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/847487

                                                                                        * If possible, purchase a Cryovac piece of meat or place in a Foodsaver bag and wet age 21+ days

                                                                                        * Remove and Rinse meat....then air dry an additional 3+ days

                                                                                        * Allow two extra hours for the meat to rest before serving

                                                                                        * If serving hot, warm for 20-30 minutes @ 250* and finish with a high heat blast @ 450* for 8-12 minutes depending on the size of the roast

                                                                                        * Roast low and slow at a temperature of 225* or less

                                                                                         
                                                                                         
                                                                                         
                                                                                         
                                                                                         
                                                                                      2. re: fourunder
                                                                                        a
                                                                                        ArtH May 14, 2012 08:56 PM

                                                                                        Fourunder,

                                                                                        I bought the eye round again at Costco. It comes in two halves. I cut each in half and salted them and wrapped in plastic and set in the fridge for 36 hours.

                                                                                        Then I froze 3.

                                                                                        I dried and then coated the last one with oil and peppered it a lot. I then seared it until it was beautiful.

                                                                                        I bought something to lift the beef in the pot by 1/2" and I put the seared roast in the pot in the thing that holds it off the bottom. I deglazed the pan with mushrooms, onions, celery, carrots, garlic and a smidge of tomato paste, a smidge of wine and a can of beef broth until the pan was clean.

                                                                                        I poured it on the beef in the pot. I added a sheet of tinfoil and the lid and put in a 175 degF oven and checked it in 2 hours.

                                                                                        At 2 hours the internal temperature was 146. I watched the oven temp and it was between 170 and 180'ish. It seem stable. I flipped the meat.

                                                                                        At 3 hours the internal temp was 155.

                                                                                        At 4 hours it was 159. I flipped it.

                                                                                        At 5 hours it was 160.5. The collagen should be breaking down.

                                                                                        At 6 hours it was 161.5. The collagen should be breaking down. I flipped it.

                                                                                        I increased the oven temp to 180.

                                                                                        At 7 hours it was 162. I flipped it. It doesn't feel tender.

                                                                                        I have been above 160 for at least 2 hours. I will check in 15 minutes.

                                                                                        I think I am proving that I can't cook an eye round that I like a lot for the roast beef sandwich of my dreams. How can Roy Rogers do it so easily? Maybe they don't use eye round.

                                                                                        I had a BLT the other day and it was good. The ATK site said to put the bacon in a pan and cover with water. So I did it. It can't be worse then the roast beef sandwiches that I have been eating.

                                                                                        The bacon was great. The bacon cooked great and wasn't curling or having lumps and the stove wasn't a mess when it was done. I will try this again.

                                                                                        1. re: ArtH
                                                                                          f
                                                                                          fourunder May 14, 2012 11:25 PM

                                                                                          Sorry to hear .....based on the details provided, I would have stopped when the meat hit 145*, or medium temperature. Eye Round is very lean and does not have the connective tissue or collagen.....hence, no need to bring to any higher temperature, unless you are looking for well done meat.

                                                                                          I believe your process was fine, but the method seems more appropriate for pot roast since you used the beef broth(braising). Your recipe would be great with Chuck Roast.. While I believe low and slow would be acceptable for oven braising, it not quite the same as dry heat low temperature roasting.

                                                                                          Eye round is not a cut of beef I enjoy or purchase, but I have tested the Cook's Illustrated method of salting a day before and roasting at 225* to hit your target temperature. I would recommend you give that simple recipe a try.

                                                                                          1. re: fourunder
                                                                                            j
                                                                                            Jerseygirl111 May 15, 2012 12:32 AM

                                                                                            Fourunder, will you come to my house and cook all my meat for me? I'll even pick you up!

                                                                                            Jerseygirl111

                                                                                            1. re: Jerseygirl111
                                                                                              f
                                                                                              fourunder May 15, 2012 12:43 AM

                                                                                              You're too kind.....and I'm tempted....

                                                                                              1. re: fourunder
                                                                                                a
                                                                                                acgold7 May 15, 2012 11:20 AM

                                                                                                While I have voiced my skepticism about the long holding and rewarming method in the past, I must say I just tried this method with a tri-tip on the grill and it came out fantastic. It's the family's new favorite.

                                                                                                In a nutshell:

                                                                                                --Large Tri-tip, about 4-5 lbs (not really sure of the weight as it was bought in a large restaurant multi-pack) held in the cryo for about a month.

                                                                                                --Dry-aged for about two days.

                                                                                                --Noon: Trimmed of membrane but not the fat, seasoned and held at room temp for two hours.

                                                                                                -- 2pm: Seared on 700F grill for a couple minutes just for grill marks.

                                                                                                --Adjusted burners to maintain about 220-225F -- this took some fiddling as our grill has seven burners -- inserted digital probe thermometer and cooked to internal of 120F. This took about 1 1/2 hours.

                                                                                                --3:30pm: Removed from grill, placed in foil pan, covered with foil and held for 90 minutes. Temp dropped to 109F.

                                                                                                --5pm: Placed pan in 150F oven for 90 min. Temp rose to perfect 130F. If the temp hadn't been climbing after an hour, was planning on cranking the oven to 250 as instructed above, but it was rising nicely and on track to hit the target by dinner time, so I just let it be.

                                                                                                --6:30pm: Removed and carved immediately. No fluid loss. Perfectly pink and rare/med rare throughout. Cut like butter. Raves all around.

                                                                                                No need for high heat blast at end. Unsure of what it does but happy with these results. Kudos to fourunder.

                                                                                                1. re: acgold7
                                                                                                  f
                                                                                                  fourunder May 15, 2012 11:38 AM

                                                                                                  Very nice.....patience is truly a virtue.....especially when it comes to roasting meat.

                                                                                            2. re: fourunder
                                                                                              a
                                                                                              ArtH May 15, 2012 09:22 PM

                                                                                              Fourunder,

                                                                                              I tried the CI method, let it cool, put it in the fridge overnight to slice thin, and I thought it was too tough. I even bought a slicer and I couldn't slice it thin enough to be tender to me. Think about that.

                                                                                              Other more normal people came by and had a sandwich and they said it was Ok. I guess nobody likes eye round sandwiches.

                                                                                              I am not an expert but I read somewhere that collagen coats the muscle fibers. I read somewhere that it begins to break down at 160* internal. When the collagen breaks down, it forms gelatin. And hence tougher meats are more tender.

                                                                                              The pot roast last night went 8 hours and the internal was 161.5 and it wasn't tender, so I lowered the oven to 170* and let it go for 6 more hours. The final internal was 172.3 (seemed weird) and it still wasn't fall apart tender.

                                                                                              Previously, I did one in a crock pot on low for 12 hours and the internal temp was over 200, and it was tender, but a little dry. Remember I am making sandwiches and I slice it thin when it is cold. I reheat the meat and rehydrate it some (an add flavor) by soaking the sliced meat in the juice (not gravy).

                                                                                              So this last attempt was to hold the meat above 160 internal for a long time and then remove the meat when it was tender. It didn't happen. I made a rock. 200* meat in the crock pot is better. My crock pot is old.

                                                                                              My Warner Ware Magnelite 4265-P arrived today. It is essentially a pot. I got no plan for the next meat attempt and I got a rock sitting in the fridge.

                                                                                              So I will get some chuck at Costco. What is the minimum weight that I should cook. I don't want to cook the whole thing. I would like to try 1/4 of the roast so I can try it twice and if I hate it I can grind the remainder as burger.

                                                                                              Additionally, I will get some cooked roast beef at the deli at the grocery store and see it I like that. I will try it cold and also reheated in the juice. What is that made out of (store bought roast beef)?

                                                                                              Arby's is better then my sandwich. They have a better slicer.

                                                                                              If you will, the next time you make a left over cold roast chuck sandwich, make the sandwich as you normally would, cut it in half and take a bite or two from one of the halves. Put it back on the plate and take a picture of the two halves in one picture so we can see the meat color of the uneaten side and the texture of the bitten side and the bun crushing (if any).

                                                                                              Thanks for listening and offering help. In the past, I have solved all the food problems that I have encountered (or I gave up). It takes time and attempts.

                                                                                              A few years ago, I tried to figure out if thin or thick pizza was better. I have been making pizza for years. But I am an artisan and each pizza was different.

                                                                                              I can't remember the exact numbers (I will review my notes), but I think it was 120 grams of dough (69.4% hydration ratio), 85 grams of sauce, I can't remember the cheese but it was probably 112 grams and 10 slices of pepperoni. That is it.

                                                                                              And I varied the diameter of the pizza and cooked it on the stone. Initially, they were all good. 8" was good as was 10". And then I kept making the diameter larger using exactly the same ingredients and the thin pizza was definitely better. Each pizza had 6 slices and each slice had the same calories regardless of the diameter. Thin is better.

                                                                                              I can't make a decent cheese steak bun and I have been trying for years. However, the birds don't seem to mind finding chopped up cheese steak bun in the yard. And I have been making bread for years and it is really hard making great bread at home. You need a good oven.

                                                                                              But I am Ok at bagels and hamburger buns and rolls that you can eat with spaghetti. The loaves are good for toast but not sandwiches. Everyone says the bagels are top notch. I do the poppy seed. and the cinnamon raisin. Bagels are easy. Mucho bang for the buck. Definitely.

                                                                                              I will start some threads in the future and offer advice on some of these subjects, but I am stuck on making a great leftover roast beef sandwich.

                                                                                              1. re: ArtH
                                                                                                a
                                                                                                acgold7 May 15, 2012 09:41 PM

                                                                                                Art, if I can jump in here, I think your problem was using the round. I've never liked it much because it doesn't have much, if any, of the collagen of which you speak. I think it gets tough and dry and livery the moment it goes past 125F and there's nothing you can do to save it and IMO it's not good for much besides making the dogs happy.

                                                                                                I did a little Googling on this and it seems that while there are some collagen and fat sheets sort of surrounding the eye of round muscle, there is very little of either marbled through the muscle itself, which makes it sort of a poor choice for this application.

                                                                                                Also, my understanding of the collagen breakdown is that it occurs at prolonged times above 190F, as in a smoker.

                                                                                                Chuck and Brisket are great for going to high temps to dissolve the collagen but that's only if you want to pull it into shreds. For thin slices like French Dip, I'd use one of the Sirloin cuts recommended above, but if you use the round, don't go above 125, 128 tops. Gently warm in the Jus and it should be fine. But the high internals you are talking about will, I think, unavoidably result in a tough dry roast.

                                                                                                I could be totally off-base here, but I've never had anything from any part of the round that I enjoyed past rare. I think your best bet is to try the next piece with dry heat at 225, pull it at 120, let it rest an hour or two, then put in a 140 or 150 oven and let it come up to 125 or 130, no more.

                                                                                                1. re: acgold7
                                                                                                  a
                                                                                                  ArtH May 16, 2012 09:22 PM

                                                                                                  Many thanks for helping me think this out. I appreciate it.

                                                                                                  The part that makes it even more difficult is that the names on the hunks of meat varies from one store to another.

                                                                                                  But it appears that I am looking for something from the sirloin.

                                                                                                  I don't remember seeing the 190* thing for breaking meat down, but I did the eye round to an internal of 200+ and it was tender but intrinsically dry. Gravy solves that problem and my extremely abnormal family and their kids all love completely over cooked eye round with gravy or on sandwiches the next day without gravy. We are crazy. But I am perhaps too old to change.

                                                                                                  However, 160 to 170* internal didn't do it which confirms your research.

                                                                                                  But I am looking for a great roast beef sandwich so I have to change a little. I saw pictures of a cooked sliced whole sirloin top butt and it looked right.

                                                                                                2. re: ArtH
                                                                                                  f
                                                                                                  fourunder May 16, 2012 08:22 AM

                                                                                                  A,

                                                                                                  I agree with acgold7 on the choice of Eye Round as your problem.....while it may be lean and looks nice....it got no beefy taste and is boring. The best cut of beef for roast beef sandwiches in my opinion is Top Butt Sirloin. It's the most tender naturally and has good beef flavor. Beef Knuckle is also worth considering. Either of the two can be cut into portions....but I prefer to seam out the muscles and roast each individually. Each muscle has it's own characteristics on the tenderness scale. If you do decide to butcher your meat into slabs, then I suggest 2-2.5 inches in thickness so you can make nice thin slices...while still being moist. You could also consider using Top Round, but I recommend only for machine slicing. My problem with choosing top round is simple. To me it's much the same as Eye Round. Boring and no real beef flavor.

                                                                                                  Most of the delicatessens in my area carry either Thumann's or Boar's Head brand provisions. Both use Round, if not mistaken as their primary cut. In my area and the Northeast, many places known for their Roast Beef Dip Sandwiches use Top Butt Sirloin, slow roasted @ 190* or rotisserie roasted.. Some Use Beef Knuckles. Supermarket delicatessens will sometimes roast their own in store. They usually will offer the Eye Round or Rump/Bottom Round.

                                                                                                  Two other popular roast beef sandwiches are....the Chicago Style Italian Beef and Baltimore Pit Beef. I've never had the Chicago sandwich, but I did have the Baltimore one.......both use Top Round or Bottom Round depending on the individual business choice.....Personally, I found the Charcoal Pit Beef to be very tough and chewy. It seems to me though that from your last attempt, you may want to try a Chicago Italian Style Roast Beef. I suggest you slow roast in dry heat on a rack.....and prepare the aromatics and stock separately. You can use the finished liquid to deglaze the roasting pan.

                                                                                                  In finishing, I curious as to the temperature you are aiming to achieve. It seems to me you are cooking too long. Anything past 145* and the meat toughens up and dries out.

                                                                                                  1. re: ArtH
                                                                                                    f
                                                                                                    fourunder May 16, 2012 09:49 AM

                                                                                                    If you will, the next time you make a left over cold roast chuck sandwich, make the sandwich as you normally would, cut it in half and take a bite or two from one of the halves. Put it back on the plate and take a picture of the two halves in one picture so we can see the meat color of the uneaten side and the texture of the bitten side and the bun crushing (if any).
                                                                                                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                                                                                    Will do....

                                                                                                    1. re: ArtH
                                                                                                      f
                                                                                                      fourunder Sep 13, 2012 09:34 PM

                                                                                                      ArtH,

                                                                                                      Sorry for the delay....but better late than never.

                                                                                                      Two Chuck Roasts ....Pan seared first, then slow roasted @ 190* for approximately 3 hours until they hit 122*. I used a NorPro Meat Tenderizer to punch it first. The results were very good.

                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                                                                       
                                                        3. todao Jan 28, 2009 03:08 PM

                                                          Just keep it as liquid free as you can. I have found that simply placing it on a sheet of heavy duty foil, adding herbs and spices, wrapping it tightly and placing it in a shallow pan in the oven at 325 - 350 degrees fro about 45 min per pound produces a nice result. I use a thermometer to check the internal temp. (it punches through the foil nicely) to reinforce the time estimate. I suppose you could remove it slightly before it's completely done and brown it in a dutch oven - never tried that.

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