588922 Sun Jan 18 16:46:02 -0800 2009 14 27 General Chowhounding Topics 0 4337368 Hello everyone. I would like to pose a question less out of a need to know and more of a conversation starter. What do you think of the rise of offal in America? It appears as if dining has taken a cyclical route as opposed to a straight progression (say, as technology has continually grown). Now, we consider food that was deemed "poor peoples' food" not but a hundred years ago. Its as if we suddenly reverted back to the typewriter in the age of computers. On the other hand, we have not only rediscovered these scrumptious bits, but are reinventing ways to utilize them in dishes. I suppose I am not so much interested in a personal view of offal, but more in my fellow Chowhound's view of how we have come to embrace foods that were once thrown out. Sun Jan 18 16:46:02 -0800 2009 171048 pastry634 1 4337594 You're overstating the amount of time since these items were common fare - it's been more like fifty years for such things as brains, heart and tongue, perhaps a little longer for tripe. In some parts of the country much of this has never gone completely out of style; you can always find buckets of frozen chit'lins in most mainstream markets in Nashville, and fresh tripe is not hard to come by there, either. Fancier innards such as sweetbreads are always available if you find a meat manager willing to order them, as all the packers carry these things primarily for the restaurant trade, but will sell to any customer who asks. I grew up eating stuffed beef heart, boiled tongue, and a lot of liver - sure glad I like it, because eating what was set before you was not optional in our house. The dearth of these things in many markets has entirely to do with the necessity to carry in stock only that which will reliably sell within its window of edibility, and offal is notoriously prone to spoilage, especially such things as brains and sweetbreads. I think the current attention paid to these meats has a lot to do with such writer/chefs as Jamie Oliver at one end of the log, and an increasing number of adventurous eaters on the other. And I'm sure if your Safeway or Kroger store could reliably sell fifty pounds of sweetbreads a day you'd see them in the case pronto...and probably at a much higher price than you'd pay now. So, tell ya what...let's just keep this to ourselves, OK? Sun Jan 18 18:36:07 -0800 2009 4337368 11478 Will Owen 2 4337691 I agree. Liver is very cheap and damned good. Let's keep it that way. The last thing we need is for good and yet cheap cuts of meat to go "Yuppie" Sun Jan 18 19:28:18 -0800 2009 4337594 251167 billieboy 1 4337789 I believe that for many Americans, the late 20th century was a time of homogenization. As we moved further from an agricultural society, standard (and boring) food became the norm. It's a gross oversimplification, but white bread, cube steak, TV dinners, and cream-of-whatever soups reached their peak some time between WWII and the turn of the last century. Meat went from something you got when you butchered an animal to something that came on a nice white Styrofoam tray at the mega-mart. At some point in the last 20 years or so, people began to figure out that the nasty bits actually taste better than many of the cuts of meat that are readily available at mainstream supermarkets. I'm not sure why that is, but have heard a few plausible explanations. One theory is that pioneering chefs "rediscovered" these cuts of meat. But they must have had them somewhere, and I just don't see Fergus Henderson growing up on a hog farm. My theory - which is admittedly devoid of any evidence - is that mainstream exposure to organ meats has at least something to do with the influx of immigrants from East Asia to the US and Western Europe and the growth of those communities. Starting with the Vietnamese exodus and continuing through the wave of people who left Hong Kong when the British handed over control to China, there are a bunch of people who grew up eating more pork liver than Swanson's Salisbury steak. Westerners looking for a cheap and tasty meal were exposed to meat that wasn't for sale at the local grocery, and when it turned out to taste great, were intrigued. I disagree with the premise that going from cube steak to tripe is a reversion, and especially dislike the notion that it's like going from a word processor to a typewriter. I think a better analogy would be that the late 20th Century emphasized the boring but uniform OCR A, while recent trends recognize that it's good to have a variety of fonts at the writer's disposal. Sun Jan 18 20:28:06 -0800 2009 4337368 58743 alanbarnes 1 4337879 Oh, that's just offal !! Sorry, could not resist. Actually, as many chefs explore local ingredients, some seem to also be exploring some of the local recipes, as well. There has been a surge in the Deep South, to incorporate some of the "common folk" recipes into menus in upper-end restaurants. Some are exploring their "roots." As for offal, specifically, I have not seen it mentioned, but would not be surprised. The use of older, local recipes is often very good. Comfort food, treated a bit differently can still be "comfort food," offal, or not. Recently, some of my best fine-dining experiences have involved foods, that were though to be of the common people, not that long ago. Hunt Sun Jan 18 21:24:23 -0800 2009 4337368 11329 Bill Hunt 2 4339086 I did surprise more than one black person in Nashville with my interest in "the rest of the pig". There was the woman at our corner grocery who saw me picking pig's feet out of the meat case and asked what I intended to do with it, and when I told her I was going to cook it the way I'd had'em in France she was doubly surprised - "They eat them THERE?" And I had some difficulty convincing the elderly woman at the Daughters of Isis booth in the Tennessee State Fair's food court that I really did want a plate of chit'lins, yes ma'am, really... Mon Jan 19 11:48:28 -0800 2009 4337879 11478 Will Owen 3 4340565 You bring back memories! Going back many decades, my girlfriend (now my wife of 38 years) went to shop in a mostly Black, very rural grocery store, just up the street from my apartment. She came back talking about the various parts of a pig, that were in the butcher's cooler. Now, she was a very good cook, even back in those days, and was from a very metropolitan area of the country. Still, she was astounded. Every now and then, she'll recount her trip to that grocery store. I recall the "pickeled pig's feet" in a large jar atop the counter at the marina, where my father kept his boat. Never quite my thing, but other members of my family ALWAYS stopped in for a few. There is much, that is often seen in the Deep South, though not necessarily in all parts of the Deep South. I feel certain that there were dishes that I loved, and enjoyed, and do NOT wish to know the exact ingredients, that were in them. Now, that's just "offal." Franks for the memories, Hunt Mon Jan 19 20:33:30 -0800 2009 4339086 11329 Bill Hunt 1 4338420 There was a trend in the late 90s/early 00s of reinventing comfort food, simple pleasures for which the chef could then charge a premium. I remember various permutations on mac and cheese, meatloaf or trite dessert platters of donuts or cookies and milk. The popularization of offal, I think was an outgrowth of that appeal to rusticity. By the middle portion of this decade, chefs had done pretty much everything they could to the more popular mainstays of traditional cookery; opening up to traditional offal preparations allowed them to additional avenues of individuality, however. Moreover the increasingly adventurous diners who were becoming numerous in the American food scene could also gain cachet when they could boast of the perfect tripe at Mario Batali's or the delectable tongue they ate at Heston's place across the pond. Offal did not find its inspiration in Chinese duck tongues or Korean pork belly. Even today I find that while diners are more open to eating authentically prepared Asian cuisine, they are more likely than not ordering authentically prepared kung pao chicken or char siu. Similarly offal did not arise from those creative chefs who would frappé gizzards and serve them on sea foam. The popularization seems to have come from those chefs who wanted to prepare simple, delicious food and found their inspiration in traditional foodways. Mon Jan 19 07:48:33 -0800 2009 4337368 68363 JungMann 2 4340574 Though probably a topic for another thread, I have found that to most Westerners (myself and my wife included), some authentic Asian food is just not their thing. Now, my tennis doubles partner was Chinese and his family had owned restaurants for centuries. We attended (with great honor) many authentic Chinese weddings in the family. Most were catered by other family members, who were "in the business." Darryl always made sure that there was a family member at out table, who could direct us, regarding the various courses (between 12 and 20), that were being served. The realative was always astounded that we'd try anything, though we did always listen and temper our "tastes," based on this wise person's recommendations and admonitions. Some surprised our palates in a good way, but most did not - the wise relative was correct! Still, I would not have missed even the dishes that made us, er-r look around for the facilities. It was at this time that I realized that I had a Western palate, and that even great Eastern food was not going to get too far past that. Probably more of an indictment on me and my palate, but still I tried. Hunt Mon Jan 19 20:41:40 -0800 2009 4338420 11329 Bill Hunt 3 4341729 When we go out for dim sum in the San Gabriel Valley, we've had the best luck being offered a broader variety of dishes when our Cantonese-speaking friend Peter comes along, though the cart ladies at our favorite place are beginning to know us. The woman who usually pushes the stewed-tripe cart was surprised the first time I flagged her down (Peter wasn't with us that time). And when she gestured questioningly with her ladle at the pot of hot chile oil and I nodded enthusiastically, she gave me a big dollop and a bigger grin. We're great buddies now. Tue Jan 20 10:54:46 -0800 2009 4340574 11478 Will Owen 4 4342847 Ah, the food cart ladies. When doing dim sum, we're usually on our Western "own." No host's family members to help us. I find that the ones with the "good stuff" never, never get near our table. The ones with the stuff, that no one else wants, always camp in front of us, and urge us to "try this." I envy you your friend. Hunt Tue Jan 20 17:17:55 -0800 2009 4341729 11329 Bill Hunt 1 4340668 One place to dig into the subject is Unmentionable Cuisine, by Calvin W Schwabe. 1979, 1988 paperback, U Virginia press. Mon Jan 19 21:42:21 -0800 2009 4337368 12139 paulj 1 4342072 Interesting topic, you're right about it being a good conversation starter! I've often wondered about the resurgence of offal into the mainstream. Having grown up with it all my life (being Chinese and luckily in Vancouver) I found it odd that my caucasian friends would look at me like I was alien when I opened my lunch sack with the previous nights leftovers at school. Luckily (or unluckily) that didn't happen too often seeing as the schools I went to had a dominate Asian/East Indian population. As time went by, I think they grew used to seeing oddball things in my lunch bag. So when it comes to the topic of resurgence, well, from a personal standpoint, it never went away in the first place. Finally, with the economy not doing so hot, I think the "resurgence" can only get stronger as people try to make do with cheaper items. Long live the resurgence, makes my life easier to find my favourite bits in the grocery store. Tue Jan 20 12:35:23 -0800 2009 4337368 190037 bdachow 2 4342124 Unfortunately, according to the news it seems like the crunch has lured people back to canned and cheap packaged goods as opposed to cheapear parts of meat. Tue Jan 20 13:00:55 -0800 2009 4342072 10980 Blueicus 3 4344358 That's a shame seeing as packaged goods are still not, theoretically, as cheap as preparing your own meals. Well, that's what the dieticians keep reporting in the newspaper. Wed Jan 21 09:14:14 -0800 2009 4342124 190037 bdachow